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</a> </div> <form action="/w/index.php" method="get" class="minerva-search-form"> <div class="search-box"> <input type="hidden" name="title" value="Special:Search"/> <input class="search skin-minerva-search-trigger" id="searchInput" type="search" name="search" placeholder="Search Wikipedia" aria-label="Search Wikipedia" autocapitalize="sentences" title="Search Wikipedia [f]" accesskey="f"> </div> <button id="searchIcon" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet skin-minerva-search-trigger"> Search </button> </form> <nav class="minerva-user-navigation" aria-label="User navigation"> </nav> </div> </header> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <div class="banner-container"> <div id="siteNotice"></div> </div> <div class="pre-content heading-holder"> <div class="page-heading"> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style</h1> <div class="tagline"></div> </div> <ul id="p-associated-pages" class="minerva__tab-container"> <li class="minerva__tab "> <a class="minerva__tab-text" href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" rel="" data-event-name="tabs.subject">Project page</a> </li> <li class="minerva__tab selected"> <a class="minerva__tab-text" href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style" rel="" data-event-name="tabs.talk">Talk</a> </li> </ul> <nav class="page-actions-menu"> <ul id="p-views" class="page-actions-menu__list"> <li id="language-selector" class="page-actions-menu__list-item"> <a role="button" href="" data-mw="interface" data-event-name="menu.languages" title="Language" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet language-selector disabled"> Language </a> </li> <li id="page-actions-watch" class="page-actions-menu__list-item"> <a role="button" id="ca-watch" href="/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Wikipedia+talk%3AManual+of+Style" data-event-name="menu.watch" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet menu__item--page-actions-watch"> Watch </a> </li> <li id="page-actions-edit" class="page-actions-menu__list-item"> <a role="button" id="ca-edit" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&action=edit&oldid=1258752923" data-event-name="menu.edit" data-mw="interface" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet edit-page menu__item--page-actions-edit"> Edit </a> </li> </ul> </nav>  <div id="mw-content-subtitle"><div class="cdx-message cdx-message--block cdx-message--warning mw-revision"><div class="cdx-message__content"><div id="mw-revision-info">This is an <a href="/wiki/Help:Page_history" title="Help:Page history">old revision</a> of this page, as edited by <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" class="mw-userlink" title="User:SMcCandlish" data-mw-revid="1258752923"><bdi>SMcCandlish</bdi></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">contribs</a>) at 12:35, 21 November 2024 (<a href="#Dyslexia_font?">→<bdi dir="ltr">Dyslexia font?</bdi></a>: correction after investigating the "cog wheel" menu as a logged-out user.). The present address (URL) is a <a href="/wiki/Help:Permanent_link" title="Help:Permanent link">permanent link</a> to this revision, which may differ significantly from the <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style">current revision</a>.<div id="revision-info-plain" style="display: none;">Revision as of 12:35, 21 November 2024 by <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" class="mw-userlink" title="User:SMcCandlish" data-mw-revid="1258752923"><bdi>SMcCandlish</bdi></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">contribs</a>) (<a href="#Dyslexia_font?">→<bdi dir="ltr">Dyslexia font?</bdi></a>: correction after investigating the "cog wheel" menu as a logged-out user.)</div></div><div id="mw-revision-nav">(<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&diff=prev&oldid=1258752923" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style">diff</a>) <a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&direction=prev&oldid=1258752923" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style">← Previous revision</a> | <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style">Latest revision</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&diff=cur&oldid=1258752923" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style">diff</a>) | <a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&direction=next&oldid=1258752923" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style">Newer revision →</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&diff=next&oldid=1258752923" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style">diff</a>)</div></div></div> <div class="ext-discussiontools-init-pageframe-latestcomment">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121123400-Uwappa-20241116045400">2 days ago</a> by SMcCandlish in topic <a href="#Dyslexia_font?">Dyslexia font?</a></div></div> </div> <div id="bodyContent" class="content"> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-lede-button-container"><span id='ooui-php-259' class='ext-discussiontools-init-lede-button oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"info","label":"Learn more about this page","classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-lede-button"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'>Learn more about this page</a></div><script>function mfTempOpenSection(id){var block=document.getElementById("mf-section-"+id);block.className+=" open-block";block.previousSibling.className+=" open-block";}</script><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><section class="mf-section-0" id="mf-section-0"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1230750088">.mw-parser-output .talkheader{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-body{display:flex}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a> page. </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style" title="Special:NewSection/Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style">Click here to start a new topic.</a></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? Welcome! <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Help:Introduction">Learn to edit</a>; <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Questions" title="Wikipedia:Questions">get help</a>.</li></ul> </div> <div class="talkheader-policies"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith" title="Wikipedia:Assume good faith">Assume good faith</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility" title="Wikipedia:Civility">Be polite</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">avoid personal attacks</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers" title="Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers">Be welcoming to newcomers</a></li> <li>Seek <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests">dispute resolution</a> if needed</li></ul> </div><div class="talkheader-shortcuts"> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1252059228">.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain{float:right;margin:0 0 0 1em;border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-base,#fff);padding:0.3em 0.6em 0.2em 0.6em;text-align:center;font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxleft{float:left;margin:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutlist{display:inline-block;border-bottom:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);margin-bottom:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain ul{font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutanchordiv{position:relative;top:-3em}.mw-parser-output li .module-shortcutanchordiv{float:right}.mw-parser-output .mbox-imageright .module-shortcutboxplain{padding:0.4em 1em 0.4em 1em;line-height:1.3;margin:0}</style><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcut</a></div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:MOS&redirect=no">WT:MOS</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_index" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive index">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_1" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_2" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_3" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_4" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_5" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_6" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_7" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_8" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_9" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_10" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_11" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_12" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_13" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_14" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_15" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_16" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_17" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_18" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_19" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_20" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_21" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_22" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_23" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 23">23</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_24" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 24">24</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_25" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 25">25</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_26" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 26">26</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_27" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 27">27</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_28" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 28">28</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_29" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 29">29</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_30" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 30">30</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_31" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 31">31</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_32" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 32">32</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_33" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 33">33</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_34" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 34">34</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_35" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 35">35</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_36" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 36">36</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_37" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 37">37</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_38" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 38">38</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_39" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 39">39</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_40" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 40">40</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_41" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 41">41</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_42" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 42">42</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_43" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 43">43</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_44" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 44">44</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_45" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 45">45</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_46" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 46">46</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_47" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 47">47</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_48" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 48">48</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_49" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 49">49</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_50" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 50">50</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_51" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 51">51</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_52" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 52">52</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_53" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 53">53</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_54" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 54">54</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_55" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 55">55</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_56" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 56">56</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_57" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 57">57</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_58" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 58">58</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_59" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 59">59</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_60" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 60">60</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_61" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 61">61</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_62" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 62">62</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_63" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 63">63</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_64" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 64">64</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_65" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 65">65</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_66" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 66">66</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_67" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 67">67</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_68" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 68">68</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_69" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 69">69</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_70" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 70">70</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_71" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 71">71</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_72" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 72">72</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_73" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 73">73</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_74" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 74">74</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_75" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 75">75</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_76" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 76">76</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_77" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 77">77</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_78" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 78">78</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_79" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 79">79</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_80" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 80">80</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_81" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 81">81</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_82" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 82">82</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_83" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 83">83</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_84" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 84">84</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_85" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 85">85</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_86" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 86">86</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_87" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 87">87</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_88" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 88">88</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_89" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 89">89</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_90" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 90">90</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_91" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 91">91</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_92" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 92">92</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_93" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 93">93</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_94" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 94">94</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_95" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 95">95</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_96" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 96">96</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_97" title="Wikipedia 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href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_106" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 106">106</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_107" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 107">107</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_108" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 108">108</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_109" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 109">109</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_110" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 110">110</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_111" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 111">111</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_112" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 112">112</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_113" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 113">113</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_114" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 114">114</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_115" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 115">115</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_116" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 116">116</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_117" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 117">117</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_118" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 118">118</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_119" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 119">119</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_120" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 120">120</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_121" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 121">121</a>, <a 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href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_138" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 138">138</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_139" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 139">139</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_140" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 140">140</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_141" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 141">141</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_142" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 142">142</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_143" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 143">143</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_144" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 144">144</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_145" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 145">145</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_146" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 146">146</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_147" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 147">147</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_148" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 148">148</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_149" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 149">149</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_150" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 150">150</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_151" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 151">151</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_152" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 152">152</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_153" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 153">153</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_154" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 154">154</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_155" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 155">155</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_156" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 156">156</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_157" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 157">157</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_158" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 158">158</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_159" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 159">159</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_160" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 160">160</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_161" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 161">161</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_162" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 162">162</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_163" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 163">163</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_164" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 164">164</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_165" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 165">165</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_166" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 166">166</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_167" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 167">167</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_168" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 168">168</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_169" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 169">169</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_170" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 170">170</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_171" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 171">171</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_172" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 172">172</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_173" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 173">173</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_174" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 174">174</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_175" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 175">175</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_176" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 176">176</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_177" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 177">177</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_178" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 178">178</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_179" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 179">179</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_180" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 180">180</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_181" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 181">181</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_182" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 182">182</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_183" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 183">183</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_184" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 184">184</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_185" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 185">185</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_186" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 186">186</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_187" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 187">187</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_188" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 188">188</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_189" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 189">189</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_190" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 190">190</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_191" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 191">191</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_192" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 192">192</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_193" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 193">193</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_194" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 194">194</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_195" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 195">195</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_196" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 196">196</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_197" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 197">197</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_198" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 198">198</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_199" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 199">199</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_200" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 200">200</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_201" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 201">201</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_202" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 202">202</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_203" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 203">203</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_204" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 204">204</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_205" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 205">205</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_206" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 206">206</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_207" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 207">207</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_208" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 208">208</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_209" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 209">209</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_210" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 210">210</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_211" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 211">211</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_212" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 212">212</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_213" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 213">213</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_214" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 214">214</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_215" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 215">215</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_216" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 216">216</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_217" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 217">217</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_218" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 218">218</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_219" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 219">219</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_220" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 220">220</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_221" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 221">221</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_222" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 222">222</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_223" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 223">223</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_224" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 224">224</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_225" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 225">225</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_226" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 226">226</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_227" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 227">227</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_228" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 228">228</a><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1038841319">.mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}</style><span class="rt-commentedText tooltip tooltip-dotted" title="Discussions with timestamps are automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III after 30 days of inactivity when more than 4 threads are present.">Auto-archiving period: 30 days <a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archiving" title="Help:Archiving a talk page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/16px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/24px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/32px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214851843">.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{box-sizing:border-box;width:100%;padding:5px;border:none;font-size:95%}.mw-parser-output .hidden-title{font-weight:bold;line-height:1.6;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .hidden-content{text-align:left}@media all and (max-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{width:auto!important;clear:none!important;float:none!important}}</style><div class="hidden-begin mw-collapsible" style="font-size: 105%"><div class="hidden-title skin-nightmode-reset-color" style="text-align: center"><div style="float:left;"><a href="//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/FAQ" title="?"><img alt="?" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/OOjs_UI_icon_help-ltr-progressive.svg/24px-OOjs_UI_icon_help-ltr-progressive.svg.png" decoding="async" width="24" height="24" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/OOjs_UI_icon_help-ltr-progressive.svg/36px-OOjs_UI_icon_help-ltr-progressive.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/OOjs_UI_icon_help-ltr-progressive.svg/48px-OOjs_UI_icon_help-ltr-progressive.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="20" data-file-height="20"></a> <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/FAQ">faq page</a></div> Frequently asked questions</div><div class="hidden-content mw-collapsible-content" style=""> Wikipedia's Manual of Style contains some conventions that differ from those in some other, well-known style guides and from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Lies_Miss_Snodgrass_Told_You" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Lies Miss Snodgrass Told You">what is often taught in schools</a>. Wikipedia's editors have discussed these conventions in great detail and have reached <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">consensus</a> that these conventions serve our purposes best. New contributors are advised to check the FAQ and the archives to see if their concern has already been discussed. <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r902545367">.mw-parser-output .faqrow{padding:2px 0;font-size:95%}.mw-parser-output .faqrow-title{padding:2px 35px 2px 2px;line-height:1.6em;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .faqrow-body{margin:2px 0 2px 15px;padding:2px}</style> <div class="faqrow-title"> Why does the Manual of Style <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotation_characters" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">recommend straight</a> (keyboard-style) instead of curly (typographic) quotation marks and apostrophes (i.e., the characters " and ', instead of “, ”, ‘, and ’)‍?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">Users may only know how to type in straight quotes (such as " and ') when searching for text within a page or when editing. Not all Web browsers find curly quotes when users type straight quotes in search strings.</div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367"> <div class="faqrow-title"> Why does the Manual of Style <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Punctuation_inside_or_outside" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">recommend logical quotation</a>?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">This system is preferred because Wikipedia, as an international and electronic encyclopedia, has specific needs better addressed by logical quotation than by the other styles, despite the tendency of externally published style guides to recommend the latter. These include the distinct typesetters' style (often called American, though not limited to the US), and the various British/Commonwealth styles, which are superficially similar to logical quotation but have some characteristics of typesetters' style. Logical quotation is more in keeping with the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Original_wording" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">principle of minimal change</a> to quotations, and is less prone to misquotation, ambiguity, and the introduction of errors in subsequent editing, than the alternatives. Logical quotation was adopted in 2005, and has been the subject of perennial debate that has not changed this consensus.</div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367"> <div class="faqrow-title"> Why does the Manual of Style <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Dashes" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">differentiate</a> the hyphen (-), en dash (–), em dash (—), and minus sign (−)?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">Appropriate use of hyphens and dashes is as much a part of literate, easy-to-read writing as are correct spelling and capitalization. The <a href="/wiki/Help:CharInsert" title="Help:CharInsert">"Insert" editing tools</a> directly below the Wikipedia editing window provide immediate access to all these characters.</div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367"> <div class="faqrow-title"> Why does the Manual of Style <a href="/wiki/MOS:POSS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:POSS">recommend apostrophe+s</a> for singular possessive of names ending in s?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">Most modern style guides treat names ending with s just like other singular nouns when forming the possessive. The few that do not propose mutually contradictory alternatives. Numerous discussions have led to the current MoS guidance (see discussions of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_2#Making_possessives" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 2">2004</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_6#Possessives_of_words_ending_in_'s'" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 6">2005</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_7#Possessives_of_words_ending_in_'s'" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 7">2005</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_44#s_after_apostrophe_in_possessives_of_words_ending_in_s" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 44">2006</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_38#Possessives_after_a_name" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 38">2006</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_92#Possessives_of_proper_names_ending_in_%22s%22" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 92">2007</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_100#Singular_possessives_ending_in_%22s%22" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 100">2008</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_102#Possessives" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 102">2008</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_104#Possessive" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 104">2008</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_107#Possessives_of_proper_names" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 107">2009</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_108#Possessive_apostrophes" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 108">2009</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_110#What_happened_to_the_Possessives_section?" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 110">2009</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_134#Possible_issues_in_%22Possessives%22_section" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 134">2012</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_147#Paris'_or_Paris's" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 147">2013</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_169#Revisiting_possessive_for_words_ending_in_unsounded_s" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 169">2015</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_181#Just_add_an_apostrophe?" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 181">2016</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_193#Possessive_of_singular_nouns_ending_with_a_SILENT_s?" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 193">2017</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_198#Apostronot" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 198">2017</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_140#RFC_on_forming_possessive_form_of_singular_names,_MOS_advice_simplification" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 140">2017</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_204#Singular_possessives_in_-s" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 204">2018</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_209#Changes_regarding_apostrophes_on_singular_possessives" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 209">2018</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_158#AD_in_MOS:ERA" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 158">2019</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_223#Possessive_forms_of_biblical_names_ending_with_%22s%22" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 223">2021</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_226#MOS:'S_misguided?" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 226">2022</a>).</div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367"> <div class="faqrow-title"> Why doesn't the Manual of Style always follow specialized practice?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">Although Wikipedia contains some highly technical content, it is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Make_technical_articles_understandable" title="Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable">written for a general audience</a>. While specialized publications in a field, such as academic journals, are excellent sources for facts, they are not always the best sources for or examples of how to present those facts to non-experts. When adopting style recommendations from external sources, the Manual of Style incorporates a substantial number of practices from technical standards and field-specific academic style guides; however, Wikipedia defaults to preferring general-audience sources on style, especially when a specialized preference <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Specialized-style_fallacy" title="Wikipedia:Specialized-style fallacy">may conflict</a> with most readers' expectations, and when different disciplines use conflicting styles.</div></div> </div></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Spain_traffic_signal_p4.svg/45px-Spain_traffic_signal_p4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="45" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Spain_traffic_signal_p4.svg/68px-Spain_traffic_signal_p4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Spain_traffic_signal_p4.svg/91px-Spain_traffic_signal_p4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="218" data-file-height="192"></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align: center;">Discussions on this page often lead to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Failure_or_refusal_to_%22get_the_point%22" title="Wikipedia:Disruptive editing">previous arguments being restated</a>. Please read recent comments, look in the <a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">archives</a>, and review the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/FAQ" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/FAQ">FAQ</a> before commenting. <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style="background-color: inherit; color: inherit;"><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"></div><input type="hidden" value="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style" name="prefix"> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"></form></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/40px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/80px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256386598">.mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#F0F2F5;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#CCFFCC;color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}</style> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="background:#F0F2F5; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center; color:#202122"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">Section sizes</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <table class="wikitable sortable" style=""> <caption>Section size for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style</a> (155 sections) </caption> <tbody><tr> <th>Section name</th> <th>Byte count</th> <th>Section total </th></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#(Top)" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">(Top)</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B7B7;">2,641</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F2F2;font-weight:bold;">2,641 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Retaining_existing_styles" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Retaining existing styles</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B3B3;">2,782</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F1F1;font-weight:bold;">2,782 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Article_titles,_sections,_and_headings" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Article titles, sections, and headings</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F7F7;">137</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D1D1;font-weight:bold;">12,660 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Article_titles" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Article titles</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8A4A4;">3,401</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,401 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Section_organization" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Section organization</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F88181;">4,739</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">4,739 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Section_headings" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Section headings</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89F9F;">3,573</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ECEC;">4,383 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Heading-like_material" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Heading-like material</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E6E6;">810</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">810 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">National varieties of English</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E5E5;">842</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E5E5;font-weight:bold;">6,604 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Consistency_within_articles" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Consistency within articles</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;">1,230</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,230 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Opportunities_for_commonality" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Opportunities for commonality</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8CACA;">1,891</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,891 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Strong_national_ties_to_a_topic" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Strong national ties to a topic</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D6D6;">1,414</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,414 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Retaining_the_existing_variety" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Retaining the existing variety</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;">1,227</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,227 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Capital_letters" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Capital letters</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EAEA;">648</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BDBD;font-weight:bold;">18,724 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Capitalization_of_The" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Capitalization of The</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E1E1;">984</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">984 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Titles_of_works" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Titles of works</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;">1,232</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,232 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Titles_of_people" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Titles of people</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E7E7;">780</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">780 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Religions,_deities,_philosophies,_doctrines" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F87B7B;">4,974</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">4,974 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Calendar_items" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Calendar items</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E9E9;">701</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">701 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Animals,_plants,_and_other_organisms" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Animals, plants, and other organisms</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F86B6B;">5,616</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,616 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Celestial_bodies" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Celestial bodies</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;">1,249</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,249 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Compass_points" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Compass points</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DCDC;">1,203</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,203 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Proper_names_versus_generic_terms" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Proper names versus generic terms</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D8D8;">1,337</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,337 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Ligatures" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Ligatures</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EEEE;">495</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F9F9;font-weight:bold;">495 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Abbreviations" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Abbreviations</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E7E7;">774</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E0E0;font-weight:bold;">8,093 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Write_first_occurrences_in_full" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Write first occurrences in full</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EBEB;">609</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">609 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Plural_forms" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Plural forms</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F4F4;">245</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">245 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Punctuation_and_spacing" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Punctuation and spacing</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DDDD;">1,170</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,170 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#US_and_U.S." title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">US and U.S.</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C9C9;">1,918</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,918 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Circa" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Circa</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F3F3;">279</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">279 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Avoid_unwarranted_use" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Avoid unwarranted use</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EAEA;">662</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">662 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Do_not_invent" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Do not invent</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E4E4;">874</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">874 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#HTML_tags_and_templates" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">HTML tags and templates</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F1F1;">383</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">383 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Ampersand" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Ampersand</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DCDC;">1,179</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,179 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Italics" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Italics</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F8F8;">105</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E6E6;font-weight:bold;">6,351 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Emphasis" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Emphasis</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DEDE;">1,133</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,133 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Titles" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Titles</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ECEC;">572</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">572 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Words_as_words" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Words as words</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D9D9;">1,310</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,310 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Non-English_words" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Non-English words</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E7E7;">746</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">746 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Scientific_names" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Scientific names</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EEEE;">499</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">499 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations_in_italics" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Quotations in italics</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ECEC;">581</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">581 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Italics_within_quotations" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Italics within quotations</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E7E7;">767</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">767 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Effect_on_nearby_punctuation" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Effect on nearby punctuation</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EAEA;">638</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">638 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Quotations</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D7D7;">1,393</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C4C4;font-weight:bold;">16,543 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Original_wording" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Original wording</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B0B0;">2,912</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,912 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Point of view</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;">1,234</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,234 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Typographic_conformity" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Typographic conformity</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F86666;">5,805</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,805 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Attribution" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Attribution</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EFEF;">439</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">439 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations_within_quotations" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Quotations within quotations</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F8F8;">94</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">94 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Linking" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Linking</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EEEE;">483</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">483 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Block_quotations" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Block quotations</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ADAD;">3,044</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,044 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Non-English_quotations" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Non-English quotations</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DDDD;">1,139</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,139 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Punctuation" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Punctuation</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F5F5;">203</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:red;font-weight:bold;">76,543 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Apostrophes" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Apostrophes</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C2C2;">2,194</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,194 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotation_marks" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Quotation marks</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F0F0;">394</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8CECE;">13,592 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotation_characters" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Quotation characters</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E0E0;">1,035</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,035 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Double_or_single" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Double or single</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;">1,234</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,234 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#For_a_quotation_within_a_quotation" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">For a quotation within a quotation</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E4E4;">869</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">869 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Article_openings" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Article openings</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E8E8;">724</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">724 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Punctuation_before_quotations" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Punctuation before quotations</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C7C7;">2,023</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,023 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Names_and_titles" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Names and titles</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D8D8;">1,331</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,331 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Punctuation_inside_or_outside" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Punctuation inside or outside</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89C9C;">3,717</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,717 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotation_marks_and_external_links" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Quotation marks and external links</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E2E2;">940</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">940 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotation_marks_and_internal_links" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Quotation marks and internal links</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D9D9;">1,325</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,325 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Brackets_and_parentheses" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Brackets and parentheses</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8A5A5;">3,361</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ECEC;">4,566 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Brackets_and_linking" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Brackets and linking</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DCDC;">1,205</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,205 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Ellipses" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Ellipses</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B0B0;">2,934</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,934 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Commas" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Commas</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F87E7E;">4,857</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E0E0;">8,053 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Serial_commas" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Serial commas</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8A9A9;">3,196</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,196 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Colons" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Colons</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8CBCB;">1,863</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,863 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Semicolons" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Semicolons</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8A5A5;">3,331</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E8E8;">5,721 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Semicolon_before_%22however%22" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Semicolon before "however"</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BDBD;">2,390</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,390 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Hyphens" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Hyphens</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:red;">9,783</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">9,783 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Dashes" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Dashes</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E6E6;">800</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C6C6;">16,014 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#In_article_titles" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">In article titles</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E7E7;">759</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">759 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#In_running_text" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">In running text</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C2C2;">2,204</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D2D2;">12,351 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#In_ranges_that_might_otherwise_be_expressed_with_to_or_through" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">In ranges that might otherwise be expressed with to or through</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ACAC;">3,063</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,063 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#In_compounds_when_the_connection_might_otherwise_be_expressed_with_to,_versus,_and,_or_between" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">In compounds when the connection might otherwise be expressed with to, versus, and, or between</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F87676;">5,202</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,202 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Instead_of_a_hyphen,_use_an_en_dash_when_applying_a_prefix_or_suffix_to_a_compound_that_itself_includes_a_space,_dash_or_hyphen" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Instead of a hyphen, use an en dash when applying a prefix or suffix to a compound that itself includes a space, dash or hyphen</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D9D9;">1,297</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,297 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#To_separate_parts_of_an_item_in_a_list" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">To separate parts of an item in a list</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ECEC;">585</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">585 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Other_uses_for_en_dashes" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Other uses for en dashes</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EDED;">533</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">533 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Other_uses_for_em_dashes" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Other uses for em dashes</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E2E2;">966</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">966 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Other_dashes" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Other dashes</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EBEB;">605</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">605 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Slashes_(strokes)" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Slashes (strokes)</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8A5A5;">3,340</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EEEE;">3,923 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#And/or" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">And/or</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ECEC;">583</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">583 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Symbols" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Symbols</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EBEB;">595</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">595 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Number_(pound,_hash)_sign_and_numero" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Number (pound, hash) sign and numero</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BFBF;">2,310</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,310 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Terminal_punctuation" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Terminal punctuation</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E8E8;">737</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">737 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Spacing" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Spacing</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EEEE;">507</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">507 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Consecutive_punctuation_marks" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Consecutive punctuation marks</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DDDD;">1,151</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,151 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Punctuation_and_footnotes" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Punctuation and footnotes</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C3C3;">2,179</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,179 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Punctuation_after_formulae" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Punctuation after formulae</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F5F5;">218</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">218 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Dates_and_time" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Dates and time</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F1F1;">361</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EAEA;font-weight:bold;">5,078 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Time_of_day" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Time of day</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E6E6;">794</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">794 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Dates" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Dates</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E0E0;">1,033</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,033 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Months" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Months</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F2F2;">323</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">323 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Seasons" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Seasons</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E7E7;">769</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">769 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Years_and_longer_periods" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Years and longer periods</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DFDF;">1,080</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,080 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Current" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Current</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E8E8;">718</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">718 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Numbers" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Numbers</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8CACA;">1,881</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F4F4;font-weight:bold;">1,881 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Currencies" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Currencies</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D1D1;">1,637</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F5F5;font-weight:bold;">1,637 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Units_of_measurement" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Units of measurement</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B5B5;">2,739</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F2F2;font-weight:bold;">2,739 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Common_mathematical_symbols" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Common mathematical symbols</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B8B8;">2,606</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F2F2;font-weight:bold;">2,606 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Grammar_and_usage" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Grammar and usage</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F9F9;">62</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D7D7;font-weight:bold;">10,879 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Possessives" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Possessives</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F6F6;">158</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F4F4;">1,918 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Singular_nouns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Singular nouns</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E2E2;">975</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">975 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Plural_nouns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Plural nouns</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EDED;">523</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">523 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Official_names" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Official names</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F4F4;">262</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">262 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Pronouns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Pronouns</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F3F3;">309</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EDED;">4,075 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#First-person_pronouns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">First-person pronouns</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D4D4;">1,494</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,494 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Second-person_pronouns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Second-person pronouns</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C0C0;">2,272</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,272 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Plurals" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Plurals</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C7C7;">1,996</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,996 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Verb_tense" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Verb tense</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B2B2;">2,828</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,828 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Vocabulary" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Vocabulary</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F8F8;">98</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B1B1;font-weight:bold;">22,626 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Contractions" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Contractions</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EEEE;">476</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">476 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Gender-neutral_language" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Gender-neutral language</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8CFCF;">1,692</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,692 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Contested_vocabulary" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Contested vocabulary</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F4F4;">256</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">256 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Instructional_and_presumptuous_language" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Instructional and presumptuous language</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B9B9;">2,578</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,578 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Subset_terms" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Subset terms</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EBEB;">618</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">618 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Identity" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Identity</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C8C8;">1,959</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EFEF;">3,615 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Gender_identity" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Gender identity</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D0D0;">1,656</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,656 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Non-English_terms" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Non-English terms</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F3F3;">301</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E1E1;">7,952 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Terms_without_common_usage_in_English" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Terms without common usage in English</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D3D3;">1,556</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,556 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Terms_with_common_usage_in_English" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Terms with common usage in English</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F1F1;">387</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">387 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Spelling_and_romanization" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Spelling and romanization</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F87F7F;">4,837</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">4,837 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Other_non-English_concerns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Other non-English concerns</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E4E4;">871</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">871 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Technical_language" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Technical language</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C8C8;">1,970</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,970 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Geographical_items" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Geographical items</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8A4A4;">3,371</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,371 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Media_files" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Media files</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F9F9;">74</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F1F1;font-weight:bold;">2,801 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Images" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Images</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F2F2;">318</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">318 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Other_media" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Other media</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F6F6;">181</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">181 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Avoid_using_images_to_display_text" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Avoid using images to display text</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E4E4;">884</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">884 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Captions" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Captions</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EDED;">526</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F6F6;">1,344 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Formatting_of_captions" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Formatting of captions</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E6E6;">818</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">818 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Bulleted_and_numbered_lists" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Bulleted and numbered lists</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D3D3;">1,547</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F5F5;font-weight:bold;">1,547 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Links" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Links</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">10</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F5F5;font-weight:bold;">1,756 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Wikilinks" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikilinks</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D6D6;">1,417</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,417 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#External_links" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">External links</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F2F2;">329</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">329 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Miscellaneous" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Miscellaneous</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">18</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D2D2;font-weight:bold;">12,377 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Keep_markup_simple" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Keep markup simple</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;">1,219</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,219 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Formatting_issues" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Formatting issues</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E1E1;">1,006</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F1F1;">2,966 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Color_coding" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Color coding</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;">1,245</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,245 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Indentation" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Indentation</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E8E8;">715</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">715 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Controlling_line_breaks" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Controlling line breaks</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BEBE;">2,356</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,356 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Scrolling_lists_and_collapsible_content" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Scrolling lists and collapsible content</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8AAAA;">3,164</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,164 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Invisible_comments" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Invisible comments</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C7C7;">1,996</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,996 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Pronunciation" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Pronunciation</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EAEA;">658</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">658 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#See_also" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">See also</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DCDC;">1,199</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EBEB;font-weight:bold;">4,870 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Guidance" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Guidance</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;">1,242</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,242 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Tools" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Tools</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F3F3;">300</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">300 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Other_community_standards" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Other community standards</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EDED;">523</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">523 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Guidelines_within_the_Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Guidelines within the Manual of Style</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F3F3;">310</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F5F5;">1,606 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Names" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Names</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D9D9;">1,296</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,296 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Notes" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Notes</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">24</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;font-weight:bold;">24 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#References" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">References</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">28</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;font-weight:bold;">28 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Further_reading" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Further reading</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DCDC;">1,206</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F7F7;font-weight:bold;">1,206 </td></tr> <tr> <th>Total</th> <th style="text-align:right">223,491</th> <th style="text-align:right">223,491 </th></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output .banner-shell{border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:4px}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-header{text-align:center;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{padding:2px 4px;background:#fffaef;color:inherit;border:1px dotted gray}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox{margin:2px 0;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox.mbox-small{line-height:1.5em;font-size:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner .banner-shell-outside{display:none}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wpbs{width:80%}}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .assess{width:60px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-header{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em 0.25em 0}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-header{display:table-row}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb:not(.mw-collapsed) .wpb-header-icon a{display:none}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice banner-shell wpbs mw-collapsible"><tbody><tr><td class="assess"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_project_class.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Project page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/35px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="36" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/53px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/70px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"></a></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This project page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale. It is of interest to the following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256394742">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-name{text-align:right;padding:0.3em 1em 0.3em 0.3em;width:50%;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-assessment{text-align:left;width:50%;padding:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-combined{text-align:left;padding:0.3em 0.3em 0.3em 0;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-bubbles{border-radius:.5em;padding:0 .3em;margin-left:0.5em;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal;color:black}.mw-parser-output .wpb-nested-task-force{font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-icon{width:50px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#F5F5F5;border-width:1px;width:500px}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main{background-color:#FFFAEF;padding:3px 0 3px 0.7em}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-main{padding:3px 5px}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#FFFAEF}.mw-parser-output .wpb-main>table{background-color:transparent;border:none;padding:0;width:100%;border-spacing:0}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-image{padding:2px 0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-head{text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-notes{padding:0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-notes>table{width:100%;background-color:transparent}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-gutter{padding:2px 0 0 0}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#f8eaba;border:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-table{table-layout:fixed}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wpb{min-width:80%}}.mw-parser-output .assess{font-weight:bold;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;color:black}.mw-parser-output .import-top{background-color:#FFBFFF}.mw-parser-output .import-high{background-color:#FFCCFF}.mw-parser-output .import-mid{background-color:#FFD9FF}.mw-parser-output .import-low{background-color:#FFE7FF}.mw-parser-output .import-bottom{background-color:#FFEBFF}.mw-parser-output .import-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .import-unknown{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .class-fa,.mw-parser-output .class-fl,.mw-parser-output .class-fm{background-color:#BED3FF}.mw-parser-output .class-a,.mw-parser-output .class-al{background-color:#C0FFFF}.mw-parser-output .class-ga{background-color:#C0FFC0}.mw-parser-output .class-b,.mw-parser-output .class-bl{background-color:#DFFFBF}.mw-parser-output .class-c,.mw-parser-output .class-cl{background-color:#FFFFBE}.mw-parser-output .class-start{background-color:#FFDBBF}.mw-parser-output .class-stub,.mw-parser-output .class-sl{background-color:#FFC0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-list{background-color:#D2C0FF}.mw-parser-output .class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/25px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/38px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/50px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120"></a></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a> <span title="This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/20px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/30px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/40px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"> <span title="For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/20px-Emblem-important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/30px-Emblem-important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/40px-Emblem-important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/45px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" decoding="async" width="45" height="45" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/68px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/90px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120"></a></td><td class="mbox-text">This page falls within the scope of the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style</a>, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a> (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style articles</td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/25px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/38px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/50px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This page falls under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">contentious topics</a> procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a>, and the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles" title="Wikipedia:Article titles">article titles policy</a>. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics#Awareness_of_contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">awareness criteria</a> carefully and exercise caution when editing.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Emblem-important.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/25px-Emblem-important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/38px-Emblem-important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/50px-Emblem-important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">policies and guidelines</a>, refer to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Proposals" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">WP:PROPOSAL</a>. Additionally, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_contribute_to_Wikipedia_guidance" title="Wikipedia:How to contribute to Wikipedia guidance">guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies</a> of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><a href="/wiki/File:Question_book_magnify2.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Question_book_magnify2.svg/25px-Question_book_magnify2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Question_book_magnify2.svg/38px-Question_book_magnify2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Question_book_magnify2.svg/50px-Question_book_magnify2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="60" data-file-height="60"></a></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_Project" title="Wikipedia:Help Project">Wikipedia Help</a> Top‑importance</td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><a href="/wiki/File:Question_book_magnify2.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Question_book_magnify2.svg/50px-Question_book_magnify2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Question_book_magnify2.svg/75px-Question_book_magnify2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Question_book_magnify2.svg/100px-Question_book_magnify2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="60" data-file-height="60"></a></td><td class="mbox-text">This page is within the scope of the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_Project" title="Wikipedia:Help Project">Wikipedia Help Project</a>, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's help documentation for readers and contributors. If you would like to participate, please visit <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_Project" title="Wikipedia:Help Project">the project page</a>, where you can join the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Help_Project" title="Wikipedia talk:Help Project">discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks. To browse help related resources see the <a href="/wiki/Help:Menu" title="Help:Menu">Help Menu</a> or <a href="/wiki/Help:Contents" title="Help:Contents">Help Directory</a>. Or <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MyTalk&action=edit&section=new&preload=Help:Contents/helpmepreload&preloadtitle=Help+me%21">ask for help on your talk page</a> and a volunteer will visit you there.Wikipedia HelpWikipedia:Help ProjectTemplate:Wikipedia Help ProjectHelp articles</td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-top"><a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Help_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Help articles">Top</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This page has been rated as Top-importance on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_Project/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:Help Project/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Moshpit2.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Moshpit2.jpg/200px-Moshpit2.jpg" decoding="async" width="200" height="200" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Moshpit2.jpg/300px-Moshpit2.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Moshpit2.jpg/400px-Moshpit2.jpg 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="800"></a><figcaption>Welcome to the MOS pit</figcaption></figure> <div id="toc" class="toc" role="navigation" aria-labelledby="mw-toc-heading"><input type="checkbox" role="button" id="toctogglecheckbox" class="toctogglecheckbox" style="display:none"><div class="toctitle" lang="en" dir="ltr"><h2 id="mw-toc-heading">Contents</h2><label class="toctogglelabel" for="toctogglecheckbox"></label></div> <ul> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1"><a href="#Style_discussions_elsewhere">1 Style discussions elsewhere</a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-2"><a href="#Current">1.1 Current</a></li> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-3"><a href="#Concluded">1.2 Concluded</a></li> </ul> </li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-4"><a href="#Possessives_and_premodern_figures">2 Possessives and premodern figures</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-5"><a href="#Formatting_of_captions">3 Formatting of captions</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-6"><a href="#Proposed_astronomy_MoS">4 Proposed astronomy MoS</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-7"><a href="#9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum">5 9×19mm Parabellum</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-8"><a href="#The_insert_box_beneath_the_edit_window">6 The insert box beneath the edit window</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-9"><a href="#Subject_about_Amazigh-related_articles.">7 Subject about Amazigh-related articles.</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-10"><a href="#Examples_to_clarify_MOS:AFFIXDASH_vs_MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES_(especially_re:_combining_forms)">8 Examples to clarify MOS:AFFIXDASH vs MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES (especially re: combining forms)</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-11"><a href="#%22Toponomy%22,_%22Etymology%22,_or_%22Name%22">9 "Toponomy", "Etymology", or "Name"</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-12"><a href="#Up_for_north?">10 Up for north?</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-13"><a href="#%22Perhaps_the_most...%22">11 "Perhaps the most..."</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-14"><a href="#MOS:PRONOUNS_cleanup">12 MOS:PRONOUNS cleanup</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-15"><a href="#Main_Street,_U.S.A.:_GEOCOMMA?">13 Main Street, U.S.A.: GEOCOMMA?</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-16"><a href="#%22Wikipedia_Manual_of_Style%22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion">14 "Wikipedia Manual of Style" listed at Redirects for discussion</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-17"><a href="#%22Manual_of_Style:%22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion">15 "Manual of Style:" listed at Redirects for discussion</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-18"><a href="#Should_interactive_content_be_included_and,_if_so,_where_and_how?">16 Should interactive content be included and, if so, where and how?</a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-19"><a href="#Reply_by_Uwappa">16.1 Reply by Uwappa</a></li> </ul> </li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-20"><a href="#MOS_namespace">17 MOS namespace</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-21"><a href="#%22Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS%22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion">18 "Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS" listed at Redirects for discussion</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-22"><a href="#%22MOS:HESD%22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion">19 "MOS:HESD" listed at Redirects for discussion</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-23"><a href="#MOS:DATECOMMA_and_ranges">20 MOS:DATECOMMA and ranges</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-24"><a href="#Citation_templates_and_MOS:RANGE">21 Citation templates and MOS:RANGE</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-25"><a href="#Capitalisation_of_acronyms_that_are_the_name_of_an_organisation">22 Capitalisation of acronyms that are the name of an organisation</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-26"><a href="#Dyslexia_font?">23 Dyslexia font?</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-27"><a href="#RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions_(crore,_lakh,_etc.)">24 RfC Indian numbering conventions (crore, lakh, etc.)</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-28"><a href="#Should_reference_titles_have_spelling_corrected?">25 Should reference titles have spelling corrected?</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-29"><a href="#Address_future-tense_verbs_in_%22tense%22_section?">26 Address future-tense verbs in "tense" section?</a></li> </ul> </div> <div style="clear:right;" class=""></div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214005174">body.skin-vector-2022 .mw-parser-output .skip-to-toc,body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .skip-to-bottom,.mw-parser-output .skip-to-bottom-timeless{display:none}body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .skip-to-bottom-timeless{display:inline}</style> <ul></ul> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(1)"><h2 id="Style_discussions_elsewhere" data-mw-thread-id="h-Style_discussions_elsewhere">Style discussions elsewhere</h2><span id='ooui-php-233' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a></div><section class="mf-section-1 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-1"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox mbox-small tmbox-notice" role="presentation" style="width:300px;"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><div style="padding: 10px;"><a href="/wiki/File:Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg" class="mw-file-description"><noscript><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg/30px-Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="32" data-file-height="32"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 30px;height: 30px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg/30px-Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg.png" data-width="30" data-height="30" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg/45px-Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg/60px-Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> </a></div></td><td class="mbox-text">This section is pinned and will not be <a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archival" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">automatically archived</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> Add a link to new discussions at top of list and indicate what kind of discussion it is (move request, RfC, open discussion, deletion discussion, etc.). Follow the links to participate, if interested. Move to Concluded when decided, and summarize conclusion. Please keep this section at the top of the page. <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Current" data-mw-thread-id="h-Current-Style_discussions_elsewhere">Current</h3></div> (newest on top) <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP:CRITERIA_and_WP:TITLEFORMAT" title="Wikipedia talk:Article titles">Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Request for comment on the relationship between WP:CRITERIA and WP:TITLEFORMAT</a> – Has stylistic implications (punctuation, leading "The", etc.) despite not being intrisically an MoS matter. (Nov. 2024)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Tory_Island#Infoboxflags" title="Talk:Battle of Tory Island">Talk:Battle of Tory Island#Infoboxflags</a> - use of flag icons in infobox per <a href="/wiki/MOS:INFOBOXFLAGS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INFOBOXFLAGS">MOS:INFOBOXFLAGS</a> (Sep.–Nov. 2024) – See also prior <a href="/wiki/Talk:Sino-Soviet_border_conflict#Belligerents_flags" title="Talk:Sino-Soviet border conflict">Talk:Sino-Soviet border conflict#Belligerents flags</a>.</li></ul> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r996643573">.mw-parser-output .block-indent{padding-left:3em;padding-right:0;overflow:hidden}</style><div class="block-indent"> Pretty stale but not "concluded": <ul><li>RfC needed on issue raised at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2024_archive#British_peer_titles_in_infoboxes" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2024 archive">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2024 archive#British peer titles in infoboxes</a> (June–July 2004, archived without resolution). Presently, the royalty/nobility wikiprojects have imposed putting British peerage titles in place of names in biographical infoboxes, against <a href="/wiki/MOS:BIO" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:BIO">MOS:BIO</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:INFOBOX" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INFOBOX">MOS:INFOBOX</a>, and the template's documentation. Either the community will accept this as a best practice and the guidelines changed to accomodate it, or it should be undone and the infobox used consistently and as-intended.</li> <li>A <a href="/wiki/MOS:JOBTITLES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:JOBTITLES">MOS:JOBTITLES</a> revision RfC needs to be drafted, based on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2023_archive#JOBTITLES_simplification_proposal" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2023 archive">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2023 archive#JOBTITLES simplification proposal</a> (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024, archived without resolution). JOBTITLES remains a point of confusion and conflict, which the guidelines are supposed to prevent not cause.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(companies)#Use_of_comma_and_abbreviation_of_Incorporated" title="Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (companies)">Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (companies)#Use of comma and abbreviation of Incorporated</a> – Involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:TM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TM">MOS:TM</a> (plus <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">WP:COMMONNAME</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OFFICIALNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OFFICIALNAME">WP:OFFICIALNAME</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POLICYFORK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POLICYFORK">WP:POLICYFORK</a>). Covers more than thread name implies. (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024) Result: Stalled without resolution; at least 3 options identified which should be put to an RfC.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Islam-related_articles#NPOV_usage_of_%22the_prophet_Muhammad%22_or_%22the_prophet%22" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles#NPOV usage of "the prophet Muhammad" or "the prophet"</a> – Involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:HONORIFIC" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:HONORIFIC">MOS:HONORIFIC</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:DOCTCAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DOCTCAPS">MOS:DOCTCAPS</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CHERRYPICKING" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CHERRYPICKING">WP:CHERRYPICKING</a>, etc. (Sep. 2023 –) Result: Still unresolved, though consensus seems to lean toward permitting lower-case "prophet" when needed for disambiguation, but no agreement yet on specific guideline wording.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Tables#Proposal_to_discourage_vertically_oriented_(%22sideways%22)_column_headers" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Tables">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Tables#Proposal to discourage vertically oriented ("sideways") column headers</a> – Specifically in tables, possibly elsewhere. <a href="/wiki/MOS:UNITNAMES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:UNITNAMES">MOS:UNITNAMES</a> (at the table "General guidelines on use of units") has an example of existing use that is being challenged, and material at <a href="/wiki/Help:Table" title="Help:Table">Help:Table</a> is also at issue. (Dec. 2023 –) Result: Still unresolved.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Help_talk:Table/Archive_9#Indenting_tables" title="Help talk:Table/Archive 9">Help talk:Table/Archive 9#Indenting tables</a> – Help page is conflicting with <a href="/wiki/MOS:DLIST" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DLIST">MOS:DLIST</a> and <a href="/wiki/MOS:ACCESS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ACCESS">MOS:ACCESS</a> on a technical point. (Aug. 2023 – Jan. 2024) Result: No objection to fixing it, and a suggestion to just do it <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOLD">WP:BOLDly</a>, but the work actually has to be done.</li></ul></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r996643573"><div class="block-indent"> Capitalization-specific: <div class="excerpt-block"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1066933788">.mw-parser-output .excerpt-hat .mw-editsection-like{font-style:normal}</style><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236090951">.mw-parser-output .hatnote{font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output div.hatnote{padding-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.5em}.mw-parser-output .hatnote i{font-style:normal}.mw-parser-output .hatnote+link+.hatnote{margin-top:-0.5em}@media print{body.ns-0 .mw-parser-output .hatnote{display:none!important}}</style><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable dablink excerpt-hat selfref">This section is an excerpt from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Current" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters § Current</a>.[<a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters&action=edit">edit</a>]</div><div class="excerpt"> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RM">Move requests</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Anglo-Marri_Wars#Rename" title="Talk:Anglo-Marri Wars">Talk:Anglo-Marri Wars#Rename</a> – Lowercase "Wars"?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mendocino_Fracture_Zone#Requested_move_20_November_2024" title="Talk:Mendocino Fracture Zone">Talk:Mendocino Fracture Zone#Requested move 20 November 2024</a> – Lowercase fracture zone on these 19 titles?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:First_battle_of_%C3%96land_(1564)#Requested_move_13_November_2024" title="Talk:First battle of Öland (1564)">Talk:First battle of Öland (1564)#Requested move 13 November 2024</a> – Uppercase 13 enumerated "battle"s?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:White_Party_(Sean_Combs)#Requested_move_4_November_2024" title="Talk:White Party (Sean Combs)">Talk:White Party (Sean Combs)#Requested move 4 November 2024</a> – Sentence case for this or alternative phrasing</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Tag_Team_(group)#Requested_move_16_October_2024" title="Talk:Tag Team (group)">Talk:Tag Team (group)#Requested move 16 October 2024</a> – Is the capital letter enough to identify this as a hip-hop duo rather than a wrestling team?</li></ul> Other discussions: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Fullbore_target_rifle#Major_rework" title="Talk:Fullbore target rifle">Talk:Fullbore target rifle#Major rework</a> – Is it too risky to ask people who are carrying firearms to use lowercase?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP:CRITERIA_and_WP:TITLEFORMAT" title="Wikipedia talk:Article titles">Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Request for comment on the relationship between WP:CRITERIA and WP:TITLEFORMAT</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dorothy_Kilgallen#Capitalization_of_the_word_mass" title="Talk:Dorothy Kilgallen">Talk:Dorothy Kilgallen#Capitalization of the word mass</a> – "her funeral Mass" vs "her funeral mass"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Julian_(emperor)#Capitalization_of_%22emperor%22" title="Talk:Julian (emperor)">Talk:Julian (emperor)#Capitalization of "emperor"</a> – should "emperor" be capped when referring to a specific person?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(ethnicities_and_tribes)#Indigenous" title="Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)">Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)#Indigenous</a> – continuation of an RM discussion on capitalization of "indigenous"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:War_on_terror#Capitalisation_of_%22global_war_on_terrorism%22_in_prose" title="Talk:War on terror">Talk:War on terror#Capitalisation of "global war on terrorism" in prose</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Music#THEBAND_disambiguators" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music#THEBAND disambiguators</a> – what to do about "The" in parenthetical disambiguators?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:F1NN5TER#Capitalization" title="Talk:F1NN5TER">Talk:F1NN5TER#Capitalization</a> – Should the online persona be called "F1NN5TER", "F1nn5ter" or "Finnster"?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Union_Jack#Case_consistency" title="Talk:Union Jack">Talk:Union Jack#Case consistency</a> – <a href="/wiki/Union_Flag" class="mw-redirect" title="Union Flag">Union Flag</a>, or <a href="/wiki/Union_flag" class="mw-redirect" title="Union flag">Union flag</a>?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Capitalisation_of_%22oblast%22_when_used_as_the_name_of_a_Ukrainian_administrative_division" title="Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)">Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Capitalisation of "oblast" when used as the name of a Ukrainian administrative division</a> – May affect other administrative divisions (e.g. raion) and other nations for which such terms are used</li></ul> Pretty stale but not "concluded": <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Upstate_New_York#Other_plausible_capitalization_issue" title="Talk:Upstate New York">Talk:Upstate New York#Other plausible capitalization issue</a> – Capitalization of "Upstate" New York.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Southern_Italy#Lowercase_or_uppercase?" title="Talk:Southern Italy">Talk:Southern Italy#Lowercase or uppercase?</a> – Capitalisation of "southern". Also "northern" and "central" in related articles.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(capitalization)#Capitalization_of_geologic_names" title="Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization)">Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization)#Capitalization of geologic names</a> – Despite being opened on an NC talk page, this is about usage in general not just in our article titles.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Fall_of_Saigon#Names_section_and_capitalisation" title="Talk:Fall of Saigon">Talk:Fall of Saigon#Names section and capitalisation</a> – capitalisation of Vietnamese language names and capitalisation of their English translations?</li></ul> </div></div></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Concluded" data-mw-thread-id="h-Concluded-Style_discussions_elsewhere">Concluded</h3></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256386598"> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:left;"><div style="font-size:115%;">Extended content</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Kula%E2%80%93Farallon_Ridge#Requested_move_26_October_2024" title="Talk:Kula–Farallon Ridge">Talk:Kula–Farallon Ridge#Requested move 26 October 2024</a> – Use en dash not hyphen in four paired names? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)/Archive_59#Could_MOS:TMRULES_be_amended_to_avoid_conflict_with_WP:COMMONNAME,_esp_for_contemporary_artists_and_their_works?" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 59">WP:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 59#Could MOS:TMRULES be amended to avoid conflict with WP:COMMONNAME, esp for contemporary artists and their works?</a> – In short, should we use odd-ball stylization of band names and the like to match their marketing? (July–Aug. 2024) Result: No formal closure, but a clear consensus against this idea, and against the underlying "conflict" premise; the proponent simply did not understand the policy. <ul><li>Various simultaneously executed RMs by the same proponent all concluded against the desired over-stylizations (usually ALL-CAPS) – some by affirmative consensus against, some by no consensus to move.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2024_archive#British_peer_titles_in_infoboxes" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2024 archive">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2024 archive#British peer titles in infoboxes</a> – Should British peers use their peerage title in place of their name in infoboxes? (June–July 2004) Result: archived without resolution. This needs to be RfCed.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Shays%27s_Rebellion#Requested_move_27_April_2024" title="Talk:Shays's Rebellion">Talk:Shays's Rebellion#Requested move 27 April 2024</a> – <a href="/wiki/MOS:POSS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:POSS">MOS:POSS</a>: "Shays'" or "Shays's"? Result: "Shays's". No objective rationale was presented for an exception to the guideline, and evidence shows "Shays's" common in source material even if "Shays'" is also common, especially in older sources.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Infobox_university/Archive_23#Type" title="Template talk:Infobox university/Archive 23">Template talk:Infobox university/Archive 23#Type</a> – Should multiple entries be formatted as a list or a single phrase? (Apr.–May 2024) Result: 4:1 against proposed change to a list format; alternative idea at end neither accepted nor rejected.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Sino-Soviet_border_conflict#Flags_and_wikilinks_in_the_Infobox_%22Belligerents%22_section" title="Talk:Sino-Soviet border conflict">Talk:Sino-Soviet border conflict#Flags and wikilinks in the Infobox "Belligerents" section</a> – Do flags in this infobox serve a "useful purpose" per <a href="/wiki/MOS:INFOBOXFLAGS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INFOBOXFLAGS">MOS:INFOBOXFLAGS</a> or are they primarily decorative and should be removed? (Apr.–May 2004) Result: 3:1 against inclusion; the 1 did not read or understand the entire guideline. See also later <a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Tory_Island#Infoboxflags" title="Talk:Battle of Tory Island">Talk:Battle of Tory Island#Infoboxflags</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Image_use_policy/Archive_16#Collages_in_infoboxes" title="Wikipedia talk:Image use policy/Archive 16">Wikipedia talk:Image use policy/Archive 16#Collages in infoboxes</a> – Primarily on a recent habit of military-conflict articles having collages of 4, 6, or even more images in their infobox. (Mar.–May 2024) Result: No formal closure, but a clear consensus against this practice; image galleries (when appropriate at all per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GALLERY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GALLERY">WP:GALLERY</a>) belong in the article body.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Featured_list_candidates/Archive_23#RfC_on_the_leads_of_DOY_articles_and_their_FL_eligibility" title="Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates/Archive 23">Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates/Archive 23#RfC on the leads of DOY articles and their FL eligibility</a> – <a href="/wiki/MOS:LEADLENGTH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:LEADLENGTH">MOS:LEADLENGTH</a> (and <a href="/wiki/MOS:LEADREL" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:LEADREL">MOS:LEADREL</a>) in "day of year" (DoY) article candidates for "featured list". (Feb. 2024) Result: No formal closure, and little clear consensus other than that <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OWN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OWN">WP:OWN</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONLEVEL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONLEVEL">WP:CONLEVEL</a> apply, as does <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">WP:DUE</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Medicine-related_articles/Archive_17#Possessives_in_condition_names" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles/Archive 17">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles/Archive 17#Possessives in condition names</a> – On <a href="/wiki/Asperger_syndrome" title="Asperger syndrome">Asperger syndrome</a> vs. <a href="/wiki/Asperger%27s_syndrome" class="mw-redirect" title="Asperger's syndrome">Asperger's syndrome</a>, etc. (Jan. 2024) Result: No clear consensus reached; a great deal of sourcing is provided, but there's a feeling that real-world usage varies considerably on a case-by-case basis, so <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">WP:COMMONNAME</a> might invididually trump <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSISTENT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONSISTENT">WP:CONSISTENT</a>. Worth revisiting in a few years to see whether source usage has shifted.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Names_of_deceased_trans_people" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Names of deceased trans people">Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Names of deceased trans people</a> (moved from WP:VPPOL) – Yet another round of this long-term, multi-RfC process. Consensus seemed possible this time but was mostly elusive. (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024) Result: no consensus to change the wording of MOS:GENDERID based on this proposal; consensus against changing "should be included" to "may be included".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_189#Make_Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_science/Manual_of_style_into_Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Computer_science" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 189">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 189#Make Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer science/Manual of style into Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Computer science</a> – Proposal to merge a "guideline in all but name" into MoS. (Jan. 2024) Result: consensus to promote to a guideline (after some significant revisions).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_210#Increase_default_thumbnail_size_from_220px_to_250px" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 210">Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 210#Increase default thumbnail size from 220px to 250px</a> – Peripherally related to <a href="/wiki/MOS:IMAGES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:IMAGES">MOS:IMAGES</a> and <a href="/wiki/MOS:ACCESS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ACCESS">MOS:ACCESS</a>. (Jan. 2024) Result: Consensus to increase to 250px.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2023_archive#JOBTITLES_simplification_proposal" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2023 archive">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2023 archive#JOBTITLES simplification proposal</a> – <a href="/wiki/MOS:JOBTITLES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:JOBTITLES">MOS:JOBTITLES</a> has long been considered too complicated and hard to follow. (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024) Result: input stalled out over the holidays, then it was archived without resolution. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2024_archive#RfC_on_JOBTITLES" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2024 archive">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2024 archive#RfC on JOBTITLES</a> – Abortive, unclear RfC that resolved nothing; unanimously opposed. (May–Sep. 2023)</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/China-_and_Chinese-related_articles/Archive_8#Kangxi_radical_template/gloss" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles/Archive 8">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles/Archive 8#Kangxi radical template/gloss</a> – Involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:FOREIGN" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FOREIGN">MOS:FOREIGN</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:SINGLE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:SINGLE">MOS:SINGLE</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:ALLCAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ALLCAPS">MOS:ALLCAPS</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:BOLD">MOS:BOLD</a>. (Oct.2023 – Jan. 2024) Result: Archived without closure. There does not seem to be a compelling reason for this ALL-CAPS behavior in the template/module, but it is still happening. <ul><li>Discussion re-opened at <a href="/wiki/Module_talk:Kangxi_radical#All-caps" title="Module talk:Kangxi radical">Module talk:Kangxi radical#All-caps</a> (Nov. 2024).</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Writing_about_fiction/Archive_14#Fictional_characters_known_by_initials_-_what_qualifies_as_the_%22preferred_style_for_their_own_name%22_?" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction/Archive 14">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction/Archive 14#Fictional characters known by initials - what qualifies as the "preferred style for their own name" ?</a> – Involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:WAF" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:WAF">MOS:WAF</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:INITIALS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INITIALS">MOS:INITIALS</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:TM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TM">MOS:TM</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:ACRO" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ACRO">MOS:ACRO</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OFFICIALNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OFFICIALNAME">WP:OFFICIALNAME</a>, etc. Result: No formal closure, but there seems to be no appetite for diverging from <a href="/wiki/MOS:INITIALS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INITIALS">MOS:INITIALS</a>, and the OP commingled unrelated cases like stagenames of real people. (Oct. 2023 – Jan. 2024)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/Archive_16#Making_redundant_table_captions_screen-reader-only" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Archive 16">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Archive 16#Making redundant table captions screen-reader-only</a> – About use of <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Sronly" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Sronly">sronly</a>}}</code> around table captions (which are primarily for screen readers) to hide them from the usual non-screen-reader view, only when their content repeats what is in the table headers. (Nov.–Dec. 2023) Result: Archived without firm resolion. As there was but one opposer of the idea, there is no consensus against doing this. If more opposition arose or some reason, open an RfC about it.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Linguistics#ALL-CAPS_for_%22keywords_for_lexical_sets%22?" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics#ALL-CAPS for "keywords for lexical sets"?</a> – Involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:ALLCAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ALLCAPS">MOS:ALLCAPS</a>. Result: Thinly attended, but there does seem to be a linguistics standard to render <a href="/wiki/Lexical_set" title="Lexical set">lexical sets</a> in <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r920966791">.mw-parser-output span.smallcaps{font-variant:small-caps}.mw-parser-output span.smallcaps-smaller{font-size:85%}</style>smallcaps, so this has been accounted for and added to the exception lists at <a href="/wiki/MOS:ALLCAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ALLCAPS">MOS:ALLCAPS</a> (since our articles are consistently doing it).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#%22the_late%22" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch#"the late"</a> – On <a href="/wiki/MOS:EUPHEMISMS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:EUPHEMISMS">MOS:EUPHEMISMS</a> and whether to add another example to it. Result: Discussion archived to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch/Archive_14#%22the_late%22" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch/Archive 14">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch/Archive 14#"the late"</a> without a clear conclusion</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Korea-related_articles#About_adding_a_link_to_each_hangul_syllable_using_Template:Linktext" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Korea-related articles">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Korea-related articles#About adding a link to each hangul syllable using Template:Linktext</a> – On use of a template to link Korean characters to Wiktionary (Jan. 2024). Result: general consensus to not do that excessive linking; and a bot request made to clean it up.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mercedes-Benz" title="Talk:Mercedes-Benz">Talk:Mercedes-Benz</a> – Use an en dash instead of a hyphen? Result: Withdrawn</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024_February#P%C4%81keh%C4%81_settlers" title="Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 February">Pākehā settlers move review</a> – Move review on Pākehā settlers vs. European settlers in New Zealand, related to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONALITY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONALITY">WP:COMMONALITY</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TIES" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TIES">WP:TIES</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSISTENT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONSISTENT">WP:CONSISTENT</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RECOGNIZABILITY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RECOGNIZABILITY">WP:RECOGNIZABILITY</a> (Feb. 2024). There were many steps in this process but ultimately <a href="/wiki/P%C4%81keh%C4%81_settlers" class="mw-redirect" title="Pākehā settlers">Pākehā settlers</a> was moved to <a href="/wiki/European_settlers_in_New_Zealand" title="European settlers in New Zealand">European settlers in New Zealand</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Titles_of_works#MOS:TITLECAPS_footnote_to_handle_symbols_substituting_for_words" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Titles of works">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Titles of works#MOS:TITLECAPS footnote to handle symbols substituting for words</a> – To treat word-substitutions ("U" for "You", "❤️" for "Heart", "..." for elided wording), as "words" for the purposes of a particular line-item about title-case treatment. Result: Done, with unanimous support. (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Trademarks#Minor_consolidation_merge" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Trademarks">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Trademarks#Minor consolidation merge</a> – To merge a line-item (about stylization of stage/pen names) out of MOS:INITIALS (where the one of the examples is only semi-pertinent anyway) and into <a href="/wiki/MOS:TM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TM">MOS:TM</a>, leaving behind a cross-reference to MOS:TM from <a href="/wiki/MOS:NAMES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NAMES">MOS:NAMES</a>. Because of some things that apply to personal not corporate names, this ended up not being practical; intead the MOS:BIO material was cleaned up and cross-references between the two MOS sections was improved; description at: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Minor_overhauling" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Minor overhauling</a>. No objections or other issues have come up. (Nov.–Dec. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC:_Standardizing_ISBN_formatting_(and_an_end_to_editwarring_about_it)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Standardizing ISBN formatting (and an end to editwarring about it)</a> – Proposal to add something to <a href="/wiki/MOS:NUM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NUM">MOS:NUM</a>. Result: "no consensus as to whether or how to standardize ISBNs or whether to subject them to a CITEVAR-like rule .... The closest thing we have to a consensus here is that spaces (option 4) should not be used." (Oct.–Dec. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#MOS_style_for_odds" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#MOS style for odds</a> – About changing <a href="/wiki/MOS:RATIOS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:RATIOS">MOS:RATIOS</a> to specify a format (new or otherwise) for betting-odds ratios. Result: No formal closure, but apparent general agreement that the <code>:</code> style for ratios in general applies to odds ratio in particular like the rest, and MOS:RATIOS updated to say this. (Oct.–Dec. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Ukrainian_places)#Centralization_re:_decommunization_of_names" title="Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Ukrainian places)">Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Ukrainian places)#Centralization re: decommunization of names</a> – Primarily a matter of article title, but there are related issues such as capitalisation. Result: basically stalled out, without resolution/action. Specific revision proposal is needed. (Nov. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Television#Number_format_within_TV_articles_-_request_for_views" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television#Number format within TV articles - request for views</a> – Also involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:NUMERALS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NUMERALS">MOS:NUMERALS</a>. RfC on "season 3, episode 7" vs. "season three, episode seven" styles (and probably also "seventh season" vs. "7th season", etc.). Result: "season and episode numbers should be expressed as numerals in tables, headings, and article body" (revision of a previous, less clear close). (Oct.–Nov. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_187#Proposed_change_MOS:TERRORIST" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 187">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 187#Proposed change MOS:TERRORIST</a> – On how WP uses terms like "terrorist/terrorism" and "freedom fighter", specifically to add a requirement "these words should only be used in quotations or referencing third-party use of the term". Result: "nearly unanimously opposed". (Oct. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#RfC_on_capitalization_after_a_colon_or_dash" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#RfC on capitalization after a colon or dash</a> – Involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:TITLES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TITLES">MOS:TITLES</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AT">WP:AT</a>, etc. Result: "rough consensus to allow for lowercase or capital letters after dashes or colons in article titles, section titles, and list items". (Sep.–Oct. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ulster_Scots_people#RfC_on_inclusion_of_ancestral_national_flags" title="Talk:Ulster Scots people">Talk:Ulster Scots people#RfC on inclusion of ancestral national flags</a> – <a href="/wiki/MOS:FLAGS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FLAGS">MOS:FLAGS</a> / <a href="/wiki/MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE">MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE</a> and Northern Ireland again. Result: No formal closure, but near-unanimous consensus against using national flags as ethnicity symbols. (Sep.–Oct. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2023_Hawaii_wildfires/Archive_2#Use_of_Hawaiian_symbols_in_names" title="Talk:2023 Hawaii wildfires/Archive 2">Talk:2023 Hawaii wildfires/Archive 2#Use of Hawaiian symbols in names</a> – Involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:HAWAII" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:HAWAII">MOS:HAWAII</a> and could have implications for what the guideline says due to wildfire news bringing many more editorial eyes to that page than to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:MOSHAWAII" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:MOSHAWAII">WT:MOSHAWAII</a>. Result: Archived without closure or any clear consensus; the general gist seems to be that the state of Hawaii is named Hawaii, the island is named Hawaiʻi, and diacritics (<a href="/wiki/%CA%BBokina" class="mw-redirect" title="ʻokina">ʻokina</a> and <a href="/wiki/Kahak%C5%8D" class="mw-redirect" title="Kahakō">kahakō</a>) should not be suppressed in the more localized names (and the US Geological Survey, which sets official placenames, along with the Hawaiʻi Board on Geographic Names, which basically tells USGS what to do in Hawaii/Hawaiʻi, both agree). (Aug.–Sep. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Bayes%27_theorem#Requested_move_23_August_2023" title="Talk:Bayes' theorem">Talk:Bayes' theorem#Requested move 23 August 2023</a> – <a href="/wiki/MOS:POSS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:POSS">MOS:POSS</a> stuff. Result: Not moved. Lots of invalid arguments, and confused attempt to pit <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONAME">WP:COMMONAME</a> against MoS (COMMONNAME is not a style policy, never has been one, and never will be; every proposal to incorporate a style matter into a policy has failed). (Aug. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history/Archive_171#RfC:_Use_of_12_or_24-hour_time" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 171">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 171#RfC: Use of 12 or 24-hour time</a> – Wikiproject propsal to change <a href="/wiki/MOS:TIME" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TIME">MOS:TIME</a> or <a href="/wiki/MOS:MILFORMAT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:MILFORMAT">MOS:MILFORMAT</a>. Result: wrong venue, and to the extent people commented on using 24-hour time, it was mostly opposed. (Aug. 2023) <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Franklin%E2%80%93Nashville_campaign#RFC_on_change_from_12-hour_clock_time_to_24-hour_clock_time" title="Talk:Franklin–Nashville campaign">Talk:Franklin–Nashville campaign#RFC on change from 12-hour clock time to 24-hour clock time</a> – Above question was raised at a specific article as a "local consensus" matter. Result: unanimous opposition to 24-hour time. (Aug.–Sep. 2023)</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)/Archive_50#Multinational_bands_and_music_groups" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 50">Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 50#Multinational bands and music groups</a> – Follow-up to "unfruitful" discussions at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:MOSMUSIC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:MOSMUSIC">WT:MOSMUSIC</a>, etc. Result: No formal closure; general agreement basically boils down to "write clearly and don't confuse or over-simplify with an adjective". (Aug. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history/Archive_171#RfC:_Abbreviations_of_rank" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 171">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 171#RfC: Abbreviations of rank</a> – Wikiproject proposal to change rank abbreviations (to NATO style) in <a href="/wiki/MOS:COMMONABBR" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:COMMONABBR">MOS:COMMONABBR</a>. Result: no formal closure, but overwhelming consensus to stick with MoS and ignore NATO preferences. (Aug. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2023_archive#Proposal_to_split_MOS:GENDERID_from_Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2023 archive">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2023 archive#Proposal to split MOS:GENDERID from Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography</a> – And some alternative ideas, including merger into <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BLP">WP:BLP</a>. Result: No formal closure, and the idea was mostly opposed, with no effect but returning all of the shortcuts (<a href="/wiki/MOS:GENDERID" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:GENDERID">MOS:GENDERID</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:GID" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:GID">MOS:GID</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:DEADNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DEADNAME">MOS:DEADNAME</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GENDERBLP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GENDERBLP">WP:GENDERBLP</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:NB" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NB">MOS:NB</a>) that someone changed to point to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Gender_identity" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity">WP:Manual of Style/Gender identity</a> essay to now point back to the real guideline at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography">WP:Manual of Style/Biography#Gender identity</a>. The essay has been retooled to be an exegesis of the guideline, though attempts at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POLICYFORK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POLICYFORK">WP:POLICYFORKing</a> are likely to continue, as this is one of our most hotbed internal topics. See also the guideline <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Gender-neutral_language" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral language</a>, and the essays <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Gender-neutral_language" title="Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language">WP:Gender-neutral language</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Gender-neutral_language_in_Wikipedia_policies" title="Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language in Wikipedia policies">WP:Gender-neutral language in Wikipedia policies</a>. (Aug. 2023) <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_186#RfC_on_GENDERID_in_BLP" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 186">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 186#RfC on GENDERID in BLP</a> – Proposal to move the MoS material into WP:BLP. Result: Procedurally closed as "premature". (Aug. 2023)</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Lutheran_Church%E2%80%93Missouri_Synod#Requested_move_25_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod">Talk:Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod#Requested move 25 August 2023</a> – Should the en dash have spaces around it; should it be an em dash? Result: moved to spaced en dash.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2023_August_5#Hyphen_vs._En_dash_usage_(Wikidata)?" title="Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2023 August 5">Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2023 August 5#Hyphen vs. En dash usage (Wikidata)?</a> and <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2023/08#Hyphen_vs._En_dash_to_separate_years_of_birth/death?" class="extiw" title="d:Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2023/08">d:Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2023/08#Hyphen vs. En dash to separate years of birth/death?</a> – Relating to concordance between wikidata descriptions and enwiki "short description". Result: Good summary: "as long as you choose a comprehensible form, your edits are fine. However, you should not change existing descriptions for stylistic reasons, and also not to unify desriptions for a given set of items"; also observations that various languages, e.g. Spanish, do not use an en dash for this purpose. So, Wikidata will not be changing away from hyphen as default, and any desire to have WD material, like automatically provided short descriptions, will have to do that change on our end. (Aug. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Decatur_%26_Eastern_Illinois_Railroad#Requested_move_9_August_2023" title="Talk:Decatur & Eastern Illinois Railroad">Talk:Decatur & Eastern Illinois Railroad#Requested move 9 August 2023</a> and <a href="/wiki/Talk:Central_Maine_%26_Quebec_Railway#Requested_move_9_August_2023" title="Talk:Central Maine & Quebec Railway">Talk:Central Maine & Quebec Railway#Requested move 9 August 2023</a> – Use "&" or "and"? (see <a href="/wiki/MOS:%26" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:&">MOS:&</a>). Result: Follow <a href="/wiki/MOS:%26" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:&">MOS:&</a>; the essay <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Trains/Style_advice" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Style advice">WP:WikiProject Trains/Style advice</a> conflicting with the guideline and with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">WP:COMMONNAME</a> policy was noted, and this <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ADVICEFORK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ADVICEFORK">WP:ADVICEFORK</a> was fixed in Jan. 2024. The second of these actually closed as "no consensus" because the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NAC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NAC">WP:NAC</a> who closed it did not know of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONLEVEL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONLEVEL">WP:CONLEVEL</a> policy and incorrectly treated policy- and guideline-based arguments as no stronger than those based on a contrary essay.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_184#RFC:_Change_wording_in_MOS:SUICIDE_to_better_reflect_the_supermajority_consensus_in_the_RFC_that_added_it" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 184">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 184#RFC: Change wording in MOS:SUICIDE to better reflect the supermajority consensus in the RFC that added it</a> – Some re-wording proposals, and even a suggestion to remove the language entirely. Result: No formal closure, and did not result in wording changes, though a re-do might come to such a conclusion. (July 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:SAG-AFTRA#Requested_move_20_July_2023" title="Talk:SAG-AFTRA">Talk:SAG-AFTRA#Requested move 20 July 2023</a> – move to <a href="/wiki/SAG%E2%80%93AFTRA" class="mw-redirect" title="SAG–AFTRA">SAG–AFTRA</a> like <a href="/wiki/AFL%E2%80%93CIO" class="mw-redirect" title="AFL–CIO">AFL–CIO</a>, or is there a reason to hyphenate as <a href="/wiki/SAG-AFTRA" title="SAG-AFTRA">SAG-AFTRA</a>? Result: Not moved. The closer actually misunderstood the guideline wording badly, and this has created a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSISTENT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONSISTENT">WP:CONSISTENT</a> policy failure with titles of other such entities including AFL–CIO, and the Famous Players-Lasky decision covered just below. This probably needs to be re-done. (July 2023) <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2023_SAG-AFTRA_strike#Requested_move_20_July_2023" title="Talk:2023 SAG-AFTRA strike">Talk:2023 SAG-AFTRA strike#Requested move 20 July 2023</a> – ditto. Result: Procedurally closed as a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TALKFORK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TALKFORK">WP:TALKFORK</a> of the RM above.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Famous_Players-Lasky#Requested_move_24_June_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Famous Players-Lasky">Talk:Famous Players-Lasky#Requested move 24 June 2023</a> – proposal to use dash instead of hyphen. Result: Use the dash per <a href="/wiki/MOS:DASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DASH">MOS:DASH</a>; a followup RM to add "Corporation" to the title rejected that idea despite <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NCCORP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NCCORP">WP:NCCORP</a> supporting it, one of several recent RM incidents suggesting that at least some portions of the page do not enjoy consensus. (June–July 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_185#RfC:_Proposed_addition_to_MOS:GENDERID_-_when_to_include_deadnames" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 185">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 185#RfC: Proposed addition to MOS:GENDERID - when to include deadnames</a> – Proposal to change <a href="/wiki/MOS:DEADNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DEADNAME">MOS:DEADNAME</a> that "encyclopaedic significance of the deadname [be] established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources, or if they were notable prior to transitioning". Result: "no clear consensus". (June–July 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_182#RFC:_MOS:GENDERID_and_the_deadnames_of_deceased_trans_and_nonbinary_persons" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 182">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 182#RFC: MOS:GENDERID and the deadnames of deceased trans and nonbinary persons</a> – Primarily about "When should Wikipedia articles include the former name of a deceased trans or nonbinary person who was not notable prior to transitioning?" Result: "there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest. Where, exactly, the lines of encyclopedic interest and avoiding confusion are is not simple or clear and will likely need discussion on individual articles, although there is definitely space for more guidance in the MOS". This has let to a lot of follow-on discussion and dispute. (May–June 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Abbreviations/Archive_2#%22Acronyms_in_page_titles%22_is_mis-placed_in_an_MoS_page" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Abbreviations/Archive 2">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Abbreviations/Archive 2#"Acronyms in page titles" is mis-placed in an MoS page</a> – Proposal to move section to naming-convention guideline. Result: no pro or con input; re-opened (Jan. 2024) on main MoS page. (June 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Icons/Archive_17#RfC_Can_notable_Brazilian_jiu-jitsu_people_display_a_rank_icon_in_their_infobox_like_Judo_people_do?" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons/Archive 17">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons/Archive 17#RfC Can notable Brazilian jiu-jitsu people display a rank icon in their infobox like Judo people do?</a> – essential information, or icon cruft? Result: "There is consensus against inclusion of rank icons." (Mar.–Apr. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Boxing/Archive_10#RfC_about_replacing_%22vs.%22_and_%22v%22_with_%22vs%22_in_boxing_match_article_titles" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing/Archive 10">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing/Archive 10#RfC about replacing "vs." and "v" with "vs" in boxing match article titles</a> – involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:MISCSHORT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:MISCSHORT">MOS:MISCSHORT</a> and <a href="/wiki/MOS:TIES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TIES">MOS:TIES</a>. Result: no consensus to use "v"; continue to use "vs." or "vs" as suits the <a href="/wiki/MOS:ENGVAR" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ENGVAR">MOS:ENGVAR</a> of the article. (Feb.–Mar. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fraternities_and_Sororities/Archive_8#Bold_and_Italics" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Archive 8">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Archive 8#Bold and Italics</a> – Should an external style guide be used in place of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOS">WP:MOS</a> in chapter lists (e.g. <a href="/wiki/List_of_Alpha_Phi_Alpha_chapters" title="List of Alpha Phi Alpha chapters">List of Alpha Phi Alpha chapters</a>)? Result: Insufficient input to reach a consensus. Needs to be RfCed. (Jan.–Feb. 2023)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_162#Decimals_when_quoting_time_periods?" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 162">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 162#Decimals when quoting time periods?</a> – Open discussion as to whether decimalized years should be used in personal biographies. Result: discussion archived; majority felt that decimalized years are not standard in biographical prose and should be limited to a statistical/mathematical context. (Jan. 2023)</li></ul> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r996643573"><div class="block-indent"> <div class="excerpt-block"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1066933788"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951"><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable dablink excerpt-hat selfref">This section is an excerpt from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Concluded" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters § Concluded</a>.[<a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters&action=edit">edit</a>]</div><div class="excerpt"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256386598"> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:left;"><div style="font-size:115%;">Capitalization-specific:</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:DLL_Hell#Requested_move_16_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:DLL Hell">Talk:DLL Hell#Requested move 16 November 2024</a> - Lowercase "Hell"? Result: Sentence case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Humber_Light_Reconnaissance_Car#Requested_move_15_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Humber Light Reconnaissance Car">Talk:Humber Light Reconnaissance Car#Requested move 15 November 2024</a> (5 articles) – Lowercase three "Light Reconnaissance Cars", a "Scout Car" and an "Armoured Truck"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mediterranean_Basin#Requested_move_13_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Mediterranean Basin">Talk:Mediterranean Basin#Requested move 13 November 2024</a> – Sentence case or title case? Result: Sentence case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:First_and_Second_Battles_of_El_Teb#Requested_move_13_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:First and Second Battles of El Teb">Talk:First and Second Battles of El Teb#Requested move 13 November 2024</a> – Lowercase 'Second' and 'Battles'? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:First_Minister_and_Deputy_First_Minister_of_Northern_Ireland#Requested_move_11_November_2024" title="Talk:First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland">Talk:First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland#Requested move 11 November 2024</a> – Uppercase 'deputy'? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:MAP45_Armoured_Personnel_Carrier#Requested_move_13_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:MAP45 Armoured Personnel Carrier">Talk:MAP45 Armoured Personnel Carrier#Requested move 13 November 2024</a> – Lowercase type, 3 titles? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Leyland_Armoured_Car#Requested_move_11_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Leyland Armoured Car">Talk:Leyland Armoured Car#Requested move 11 November 2024</a> – Lowercase 8 armoured cars? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Tunisian_revolution#Requested_move_7_November_2024" title="Talk:Tunisian revolution">Talk:Tunisian revolution#Requested move 7 November 2024</a> – Requested move to 'Jasmine Revolution' would change "revolution" to uppercase. Result: Not moved (lowercase retained).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Wall_Street_Crash_of_1929#Requested_move_9_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Wall Street Crash of 1929">Talk:Wall Street Crash of 1929#Requested move 9 November 2024</a> – Change 'Crash' to lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:First_Battle_of_Panipat#Requested_move_25_October_2024" title="Talk:First Battle of Panipat">Talk:First Battle of Panipat#Requested move 25 October 2024</a> – Lowercase battle on 3 articles? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Marmara_Region#Requested_move_1_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Marmara Region">Talk:Marmara Region#Requested move 1 November 2024</a> – Lowercase region on 4 articles? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Damn_the_Torpedoes_(album)#Requested_move_21_October_2024" title="Talk:Damn the Torpedoes (album)">Talk:Damn the Torpedoes (album)#Requested move 21 October 2024</a> – Is the capital 'T' sufficient to distinguish this album from the exclamation? Result: No; disambiguation retained.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Portrait_of_a_Man_(Self_Portrait%3F)#Requested_move_23_September_2024" title="Talk:Portrait of a Man (Self Portrait?)">Talk:Portrait of a Man (Self Portrait?)#Requested move 23 September 2024</a> – Lowercase the words inside the parentheses? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M1117_Armored_Security_Vehicle#Requested_move_2_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:M1117 Armored Security Vehicle">Talk:M1117 Armored Security Vehicle#Requested move 2 November 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:PEGASUS_(reconnaissance_system)#Requested_move_25_October_2024" title="Talk:PEGASUS (reconnaissance system)">Talk:PEGASUS (reconnaissance system)#Requested move 25 October 2024</a> – Uppercase some parts of new title? Result: No change.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ch%C5%8Dsen_Shinp%C5%8D#Requested_move_13_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Chōsen Shinpō">Talk:Chōsen Shinpō#Requested move 13 October 2024</a> – Lowercase Shinpō? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NBA_Finals_Most_Valuable_Player_award#Requested_move_11_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NBA Finals Most Valuable Player award">Talk:NBA Finals Most Valuable Player award#Requested move 11 October 2024</a> – Uppercase award? – Result: dropped "award", but one was already moved again as it was not named for an award but about two awards and is still in a state needing a fix, so this followup: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NBA_conference_finals_most_valuable_player#Requested_move_20_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NBA conference finals most valuable player">Talk:NBA conference finals most valuable player#Requested move 20 October 2024</a> – better as <a href="/wiki/NBA_conference_finals_MVP_awards" title="NBA conference finals MVP awards">NBA conference finals MVP awards</a>? Result: Moved with all-caps abbreviation and lowercase "awards" as proposed.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:AEC_Armoured_Command_Vehicle#Requested_move_19_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:AEC Armoured Command Vehicle">Talk:AEC Armoured Command Vehicle#Requested move 19 October 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:BoyNextDoor#Requested_move_18_October_2024" title="Talk:BoyNextDoor">Talk:BoyNextDoor#Requested move 18 October 2024</a> – Drop the caps in the middle of the name? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Himyarite_Kingdom#Requested_move_27_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Himyarite Kingdom">Talk:Himyarite Kingdom#Requested move 27 October 2024</a> (4 articles) – Lowercase these ancient kingdom titles? Result: Lowercase except avoiding the word "kingdom" for one topic</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:England_in_the_Late_Middle_Ages#Requested_move_5_October_2024" title="Talk:England in the Late Middle Ages">Talk:England in the Late Middle Ages#Requested move 5 October 2024</a> – Multi RM to lowercase early and late as modifiers of Middle Ages. Result: Uppercase retained.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:New_Peasant_Poets#Requested_move_22_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:New Peasant Poets">Talk:New Peasant Poets#Requested move 22 October 2024</a> – Lowercase 4 movement titles? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Cornstalk_(Shawnee_leader)#Requested_move_17_October_2024" title="Talk:Cornstalk (Shawnee leader)">Talk:Cornstalk (Shawnee leader)#Requested move 17 October 2024</a> – Lowercase "Stalk" for the disambiguation page at "<a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Corn_Stalk&redirect=no">Corn Stalk</a>"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Bergen_School_(art)#Requested_move_22_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Bergen School (art)">Talk:Bergen School (art)#Requested move 22 October 2024</a> – Lowercase school? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:First_Battle_of_Tembien#Requested_move_19_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:First Battle of Tembien">Talk:First Battle of Tembien#Requested move 19 October 2024</a> – Lowercase "Battle"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Modernized_Load-Carrying_Equipment#Requested_move_24_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Modernized Load-Carrying Equipment">Talk:Modernized Load-Carrying Equipment#Requested move 24 October 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Austin_Armoured_Car#Requested_move_18_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Austin Armoured Car">Talk:Austin Armoured Car#Requested move 18 October 2024</a> – Lowercase armoured car? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Textron_Tactical_Armoured_Patrol_Vehicle#Requested_move_30_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Textron Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle">Talk:Textron Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle#Requested move 30 October 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M21_Mortar_Motor_Carriage#Requested_move_28_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:M21 Mortar Motor Carriage">Talk:M21 Mortar Motor Carriage#Requested move 28 October 2024</a> – More commonly called M21 mortar carrier? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Federal_Firearms_License#Requested_move_24_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Federal Firearms License">Talk:Federal Firearms License#Requested move 24 October 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Northern_Mannerism#Requested_move_22_October_2024" title="Talk:Northern Mannerism">Talk:Northern Mannerism#Requested move 22 October 2024</a> – Lowercase mannerism in 2 titles? Result: Not moved. There's no consensus to move at this time.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Union_Army#Requested_move_21_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Union Army">Talk:Union Army#Requested move 21 October 2024</a> - Lowercase Army? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M3_Scout_Car#Requested_move_20_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:M3 Scout Car">Talk:M3 Scout Car#Requested move 20 October 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Daimler_Armoured_Car#Requested_move_19_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Daimler Armoured Car">Talk:Daimler Armoured Car#Requested move 19 October 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hawk_Tuah#Requested_move_28_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hawk Tuah">Talk:Hawk Tuah#Requested move 28 September 2024</a> – Lowercase "Tuah"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M728_Combat_Engineer_Vehicle#Requested_move_18_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle">Talk:M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle#Requested move 18 October 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Python_Minefield_Breaching_System#Requested_move_18_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Python Minefield Breaching System">Talk:Python Minefield Breaching System#Requested move 18 October 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Eurasian_Plate#Requested_move_6_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Eurasian Plate">Talk:Eurasian Plate#Requested move 6 October 2024</a> (74 articles) – Lowercase "Plate"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Eryholme%E2%80%93Richmond_branch_line#Requested_move_13_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Eryholme–Richmond branch line">Talk:Eryholme–Richmond branch line#Requested move 13 September 2024</a> – Uppercase "branch"? Result: Word removed.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Tichitt_culture#Requested_move_5_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Tichitt culture">Talk:Tichitt culture#Requested move 5 October 2024</a> – Change 'culture' to 'Tradition' or 'tradition'? Result: 'tradition' (lowercase).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Sri_Lankan_Civil_War#Requested_move_15_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Sri Lankan Civil War">Talk:Sri Lankan Civil War#Requested move 15 October 2024</a> – Lowercase "civil war"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Gupta_Empire#Requested_move_5_October_2024" title="Talk:Gupta Empire">Talk:Gupta Empire#Requested move 5 October 2024</a> – Lowercase empire? Result: Not moved.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Aviation_between_the_World_Wars#Requested_move_14_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Aviation between the World Wars">Talk:Aviation between the World Wars#Requested move 14 October 2024</a> – Drop uppercase? Result: Rephrased to remove the uppercase words.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hungary_between_the_World_Wars#Requested_move_14_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hungary between the World Wars">Talk:Hungary between the World Wars#Requested move 14 October 2024</a> – Drop uppercase? Result: Rephrased to remove the uppercase words.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:First_Periodic_Review_of_Scottish_Parliament_Boundaries#Requested_move_2_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:First Periodic Review of Scottish Parliament Boundaries">Talk:First Periodic Review of Scottish Parliament Boundaries#Requested move 2 October 2024</a> – Lowercase "Boundaries"? Lowercase "Periodic" and "Review"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Anatolian_Plateau#Requested_move_6_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Anatolian Plateau">Talk:Anatolian Plateau#Requested move 6 October 2024</a> – Lowercase plateau? – Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:UniTeam_Alliance#Requested_move_10_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:UniTeam Alliance">Talk:UniTeam Alliance#Requested move 10 October 2024</a> – Drop or lowercase "Alliance"? Result: Word removed.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:BabyMonster#Requested_move_10_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:BabyMonster">Talk:BabyMonster#Requested move 10 October 2024</a> – Drop the caps in the middle of the name? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Asgard_(archaea)#Requested_move_10_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Asgard (archaea)">Talk:Asgard (archaea)#Requested move 10 October 2024</a> – Uppercase "Archaea"? Result: Uppercase per naming convention for taxonomic hierarchy</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Kuninda_Kingdom#Requested_move_5_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Kuninda Kingdom">Talk:Kuninda Kingdom#Requested move 5 October 2024</a> – Lowercase kingdom? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Indo-Parthian_Kingdom#Requested_move_3_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Indo-Parthian Kingdom">Talk:Indo-Parthian Kingdom#Requested move 3 October 2024</a> – Lowercase "kingdom"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Russian-Livonian_War_(1480-1481)#Requested_move_26_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Russian-Livonian War (1480-1481)">Talk:Russian-Livonian War (1480-1481)#Requested move 26 September 2024</a> – Lowercase "War" when converting to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NATURALDIS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NATURALDIS">WP:NATURALDIS</a>? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Humber_Armoured_Car#Requested_move_8_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Humber Armoured Car">Talk:Humber Armoured Car#Requested move 8 October 2024</a> – Lowercase armoured car? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Rococo_Revival#Requested_move_21_September_2024" title="Talk:Rococo Revival">Talk:Rococo Revival#Requested move 21 September 2024</a> – is it a proper name? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Lists_of_members_of_the_Canadian_Parliament_who_died_in_office#Requested_move_4_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Lists of members of the Canadian Parliament who died in office">Talk:Lists of members of the Canadian Parliament who died in office#Requested move 4 October 2024</a> (five articles) – If "Canadian Parliament" is used instead of "Parliament of Canada", should "Parliament" be lowercase? Result: Moot, since title phrase changed to "Parliament of Canada".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Balancing_Rocks#Requested_move_1_October_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Balancing Rocks">Talk:Balancing Rocks#Requested move 1 October 2024</a> – Lowercase "Rocks"? Result: Lowercase and identify the national location of the <a href="/wiki/Balancing_rocks_of_Zimbabwe" title="Balancing rocks of Zimbabwe">Balancing rocks of Zimbabwe</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Iranian_Revolution#Requested_move_12_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Iranian Revolution">Talk:Iranian Revolution#Requested move 12 September 2024</a> – Lowercase "Revolution"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Stanis%C5%82aw_Potocki_(1659-1683)#Requested_move_27_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Stanisław Potocki (1659-1683)">Talk:Stanisław Potocki (1659-1683)#Requested move 27 August 2024</a> (four articles) – If we use role description disambiguation, should "starost of Foo" and "voivode of Bar" use lowercase? Result: Lowercase "starost" and "voivode".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Canadian_women_in_the_World_Wars#Requested_move_28_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Canadian women in the World Wars">Talk:Canadian women in the World Wars#Requested move 28 September 2024</a> (ten articles) – Lowercase "World Wars"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_films_made_in_Poland_in_the_Interwar_Period#Requested_move_25_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of films made in Poland in the Interwar Period">Talk:List of films made in Poland in the Interwar Period#Requested move 25 September 2024</a> (two articles) – Lowercase "Interwar" and "Period" (and "Level" and "Football" and "Leagues")? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Department_of_Defense_police#Requested_move_23_September_2024" title="Talk:Department of Defense police">Talk:Department of Defense police#Requested move 23 September 2024</a> – Capitalize "police"? Result: Lowercase retained</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Aerial_Rocket_Artillery#Requested_move_21_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Aerial Rocket Artillery">Talk:Aerial Rocket Artillery#Requested move 21 September 2024</a> – Lowercase "rocket artillery"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2167/2168_Changchun-Mudanjiang_Through_Train#Requested_move_19_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2167/2168 Changchun-Mudanjiang Through Train">Talk:2167/2168 Changchun-Mudanjiang Through Train#Requested move 19 September 2024</a> – Lowercase "through train" on these 30-odd articles? Result: lowercase through train and dash between termini on all 38</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M40_Gun_Motor_Carriage#Requested_move_27_August_2024" title="Talk:M40 Gun Motor Carriage">Talk:M40 Gun Motor Carriage#Requested move 27 August 2024</a> – 14 articles; lowercase the various kinds of motor carriages? Result: No consensus. <dl><dd>and side discussion at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history/Archive_173#Capitalisation_(yet_again)_now_running_at_M40_Gun_Motor_Carriage" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 173">WT:WikiProject Military history/Archive 173#Capitalisation (yet again) now running at M40 Gun Motor Carriage</a></dd></dl></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Palestinian_territories#Requested_move_5_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Palestinian territories">Talk:Palestinian territories#Requested move 5 August 2024</a> – Capitalize "territory" / "territories"? – Result: Moved as proposed but lowercase plural: <a href="/wiki/Occupied_Palestinian_territories" title="Occupied Palestinian territories">Occupied Palestinian territories</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Free_area_of_the_Republic_of_China#Requested_move_2_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Free area of the Republic of China">Talk:Free area of the Republic of China#Requested move 2 September 2024</a> – Should "area" be uppercase in this term or another? – Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/Taiwan_Area" title="Taiwan Area">Taiwan Area</a>, uppercase Area.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ottoman%E2%80%93Habsburg_War_(1529%E2%80%931533)#Requested_move_2_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ottoman–Habsburg War (1529–1533)">Talk:Ottoman–Habsburg War (1529–1533)#Requested move 2 September 2024</a> (four or ten articles) – Lowercase "War" when converting to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NATURALDIS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NATURALDIS">WP:NATURALDIS</a>? – Result: Moved to naturaldis, lowercase war.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Republican_in_Name_Only#Requested_move_1_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Republican in Name Only">Talk:Republican in Name Only#Requested move 1 September 2024</a> – change to sentence case? – Result: Sentence case; also applied to <a href="/wiki/Democrats_in_name_only" class="mw-redirect" title="Democrats in name only">Democrats in name only</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Bolognese_School#Requested_move_26_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Bolognese School">Talk:Bolognese School#Requested move 26 July 2024</a> (14 articles) – Lowercase school for "schools" of artistic styles of painting that are not the names of actual institutions? Result: Lowercase except two that were found frequently uppercased in sources</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:St._Aloysius_College_(Mangalore)#Requested_move_19_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:St. Aloysius College (Mangalore)">Talk:St. Aloysius College (Mangalore)#Requested move 19 August 2024</a> – "Deemed to be University" or similar with lowercase? Result: Different path taken, so caps question not relevant</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Non_%C3%A8_la_RAI#Requested_move_21_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Non è la RAI">Talk:Non è la RAI#Requested move 21 July 2024</a> – Remove the all-caps? Result: Yes, "RAI" → "Rai"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Canada_in_the_World_Wars_and_Interwar_Years#Requested_move_27_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Canada in the World Wars and Interwar Years">Talk:Canada in the World Wars and Interwar Years#Requested move 27 August 2024</a> – Lowercase four words in the title? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M1918_Browning_Automatic_Rifle#Requested_move_27_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle">Talk:M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle#Requested move 27 August 2024</a> – Lowercase "automatic rifle"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:What%27s_up" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:What's up">Talk:What's up</a> – Uppercase "up" for disambiguation page? Result: Yes; nearly all listed topics are titles, so put in title case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ahmadnagar_Sultanate#Requested_move_11_August_2024" title="Talk:Ahmadnagar Sultanate">Talk:Ahmadnagar Sultanate#Requested move 11 August 2024</a> – Lowercase "sultanate", 5 more like recent <a href="/wiki/Berar_sultanate" title="Berar sultanate">Berar sultanate</a> move? Result: No, left uppercase Sultanate.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Moderators_of_the_General_Assembly_of_the_Church_of_Scotland" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Moderators of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland">Talk:List of Moderators of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland</a> (multi-page RM) – Lowercase "Moderators"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Who_is_the_Master_that_Sees_and_Hears%3F#Requested_move_21_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Who is the Master that Sees and Hears?">Talk:Who is the Master that Sees and Hears?#Requested move 21 August 2024</a> – Convert to sentence case? Result: Sentence case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2023_USL_Championship_Playoffs#Requested_move_9_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2023 USL Championship Playoffs">Talk:2023 USL Championship Playoffs#Requested move 9 August 2024</a> – Lowercase playoffs? Result: Lowercase playoffs</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:RAI/Archive_1#Requested_move_16_July_2024" title="Talk:RAI/Archive 1">Talk:RAI/Archive 1#Requested move 16 July 2024</a> – Remove the all-caps? Result: Uppercase retained as an abbreviation</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:All-purpose_Lightweight_Individual_Carrying_Equipment#Requested_move_24_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment">Talk:All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment#Requested move 24 July 2024</a> (three articles) – Treat these as descriptive, lowercase? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:MLS_is_Back_Tournament#Requested_move_13_August_2024" title="Talk:MLS is Back Tournament">Talk:MLS is Back Tournament#Requested move 13 August 2024</a> – Lowercase tournament in 2 article titles? Result: No, leave capitalized Tournament.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Artms#Requested_move_25_July_2024" title="Talk:Artms">Talk:Artms#Requested move 25 July 2024</a> – All-caps? Result: No consensus, mixed case retained</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Global_War_Party#Requested_move_16_July_2024" title="Talk:Global War Party">Talk:Global War Party#Requested move 16 July 2024</a> – Change to sentence case? Result: Title case retained</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:PAW_Patrol#Requested_move_14_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:PAW Patrol">Talk:PAW Patrol#Requested move 14 August 2024</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Yes, "PAW"→"Paw"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Improved_Military_Rifle#Requested_move_13_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Improved Military Rifle">Talk:Improved Military Rifle#Requested move 13 August 2024</a> – Generic improved military rifle powder instead of brand? Result: Yes, lowercased (with added "powder")</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:SWIFT#Requested_move_14_July_2024" title="Talk:SWIFT">Talk:SWIFT#Requested move 14 July 2024</a> – Remove the all-caps? Result: No consensus to change (this is an abbreviation)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_the_African_mpox_epidemic#Requested_move_18_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Timeline of the African mpox epidemic">Talk:Timeline of the African mpox epidemic#Requested move 18 August 2024</a> – Uppercase 'mpox'? Result: Lowercase retained (uppercase possibly unintentional part of requested move)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Landing_Ship,_Tank#Requested_move_4_August_2024" title="Talk:Landing Ship, Tank">Talk:Landing Ship, Tank#Requested move 4 August 2024</a> – Six Landing Crafts and a Ship, Word Order and Capitalization of – Result: Not moved (capitalization not the primary focus of discussion)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Zimmermann_Telegram#Requested_move_10_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Zimmermann Telegram">Talk:Zimmermann Telegram#Requested move 10 August 2024</a> (multi-page RM) –Lowercase telegam, letter, and cable? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Home_improvement_(disambiguation)#Requested_move_26_July_2024" title="Talk:Home improvement (disambiguation)">Talk:Home improvement (disambiguation)#Requested move 26 July 2024</a> – Should this disambiguation page have an uppercase 'I'? Does the uppercase form have a primary topic? Result – No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Magic_realism#Requested_move_1_August_2024" title="Talk:Magic realism">Talk:Magic realism#Requested move 1 August 2024</a> – Uppercase 'realism'? (possibly an unintentional aspect of a wording change proposal) Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:%27S_Up#Requested_move_6_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:'S Up">Talk:'S Up#Requested move 6 August 2024</a> – Lowercase "S"? Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/%27s_Up" title="'s Up">'s Up</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Guy_She_Was_Interested_In_Wasn%27t_a_Guy_at_All#Requested_move_30_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:The Guy She Was Interested In Wasn't a Guy at All">Talk:The Guy She Was Interested In Wasn't a Guy at All#Requested move 30 July 2024</a> – Lowercase "In"? Result: Lowercase (a preposition, not a phrasal verb)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:MLS_Cup_Playoffs#Requested_move_31_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:MLS Cup Playoffs">Talk:MLS Cup Playoffs#Requested move 31 July 2024</a> – Lowercase playoffs? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M6_Bomb_Service_Truck#Requested_move_4_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:M6 Bomb Service Truck">Talk:M6 Bomb Service Truck#Requested move 4 August 2024</a> – Lowercase "bomb service truck"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Berar_Sultanate#Requested_move_20_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Berar Sultanate">Talk:Berar Sultanate#Requested move 20 July 2024</a> – Downcase to sultanate? Result: Lowercase sultanate on this one, maybe more.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:DNCE#Requested_move_19_July_2024" title="Talk:DNCE">Talk:DNCE#Requested move 19 July 2024</a> – Remove the all-caps? Result: No consensus; kept at DNCE</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M40_gun_motor_carriage#Requested_move_2_August_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:M40 gun motor carriage">Talk:M40 gun motor carriage#Requested move 2 August 2024</a> (19 articles) – Uppercase or lowercase? Result: Procedurally closed without change of title</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Estoile_Naiant#Requested_move_30_July_2024" title="Talk:Estoile Naiant">Talk:Estoile Naiant#Requested move 30 July 2024</a> (two articles) – All-caps? Result: No. Mixed case retained; all-caps deemed a promotional stylization</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ive_(group)#Requested_move_30_July_2024" title="Talk:Ive (group)">Talk:Ive (group)#Requested move 30 July 2024</a> – All-caps? Result: No. Mixed case retained; all-caps deemed a promotional stylization</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Te_Deseo_Lo_Mejor#Requested_move_25_July_2024" title="Talk:Te Deseo Lo Mejor">Talk:Te Deseo Lo Mejor#Requested move 25 July 2024</a> – Lowercase as the Spanish convention? Result: English-style title case retained, as an American production</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Home_economics#Requested_move_2_August_2024" title="Talk:Home economics">Talk:Home economics#Requested move 2 August 2024</a> – Use title case? (possibly an unintentional aspect of a wording change proposal) Result: RM withdrawn, lowercase retained</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Red_State#Requested_move_22_July_2024" title="Talk:Red State">Talk:Red State#Requested move 22 July 2024</a> – Move this disambiguation page to lowercase to replace the lowercase <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PRIMARYREDIRECT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PRIMARYREDIRECT">WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT</a>? Result: No, retain primary redirect for the lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hearts_on_Fire_(company)#Requested_move_29_July_2024" title="Talk:Hearts on Fire (company)">Talk:Hearts on Fire (company)#Requested move 29 July 2024</a> – Uppercase "on", like the company does? Result: Lowercase retained</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Au_Hasard_Balthazar" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Au Hasard Balthazar">Talk:Au Hasard Balthazar</a> – Lowercase the 'Hasard'? Result: Yes, following French language convention</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Yo_Momma_(TV_series)#Requested_move_25_July_2024" title="Talk:Yo Momma (TV series)">Talk:Yo Momma (TV series)#Requested move 25 July 2024</a> – Does the title sufficiently distinguish the topic from the lowercase topic? Result: No; article moved from <a href="/w/index.php?title=You_Momma&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="You Momma (page does not exist)">You Momma</a> to disambiguated title, the original redirected to <a href="/wiki/Yo_mama_(disambiguation)" class="mw-disambig" title="Yo mama (disambiguation)">Yo mama (disambiguation)</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_29#Capitalisation_of_%22house%22_and_%22senate%22" title="Talk:War of 1812/Archive 29">Talk:War of 1812/Archive_29#Capitalisation of "house" and "senate"</a> – as stand-alone terms in prose. Result: Not a formally closed discussion. In summary, shortened forms of names for institutions are not capitalized unless they are "a shorter but still specific form", not just a single generic word. The material at <a href="/wiki/MOS:INSTITUTIONS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INSTITUTIONS">MOS:INSTITUTIONS</a> probably could be clarified on the question, as this isn't the first time the matter has come up.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2020_MLS_Cup_Playoffs#Rounds_are_proper_names?" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2020 MLS Cup Playoffs">Talk:2020 MLS Cup Playoffs#Rounds are proper names?</a> – Lowercase some words in headings? – Stalled on Playoffs. RM next?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:French_liberal_school#Requested_move_2_July_2024" title="Talk:French liberal school">Talk:French liberal school#Requested move 2 July 2024</a> – Lowercase school? – Result: lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Genocide_of_Indigenous_peoples#Requested_move_25_May_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Genocide of Indigenous peoples">Talk:Genocide of Indigenous peoples#Requested move 25 May 2024</a> – Lowercase "indigenous" in a generic usage? Result: Lowercase when referring to people generally, but move review opened at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024_July#Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples" title="Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July">Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July#Genocide of indigenous peoples</a>; closure upheld with no consensus to overturn</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Development_Region#Requested_move_18_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Main Development Region">Talk:Main Development Region#Requested move 18 July 2024</a> – Downcase to <a href="/wiki/Main_development_region" title="Main development region">Main development region</a>? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Libyan_Crisis_(2011%E2%80%93present)#Requested_move_16_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Libyan Crisis (2011–present)">Talk:Libyan Crisis (2011–present)#Requested move 16 July 2024</a> – Back to lowercase crisis? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:UAAP_Final_Four#Requested_move_12_July_2024" title="Talk:UAAP Final Four">Talk:UAAP Final Four#Requested move 12 July 2024</a> – Three titles: lowercase final four? Result: Leave Final Four capped (thinly participated, no real consensus).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hurricane_Alley#Requested_move_11_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hurricane Alley">Talk:Hurricane Alley#Requested move 11 July 2024</a> – Call this the "Main Development Region" or "Main development region"? Result: "Main Development Region" without prejudice against considering "Main development region"; new RM opened.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:PBA_Best_Player_of_the_Conference_Award#Requested_move_9_July_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:PBA Best Player of the Conference Award">Talk:PBA Best Player of the Conference Award#Requested move 9 July 2024</a> – Lowercase award on these dozen titles? Result: All moved to lowercase "award"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Three_Musketeers_(game)#Requested_move_10_June_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Three Musketeers (game)">Talk:Three Musketeers (game)#Requested move 10 June 2024</a> – Is it capped as a trademark, or should be lowercase musketeers? Result: Moved to lowercase musketeers.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Genocide_of_Indigenous_peoples#Requested_move_25_May_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Genocide of Indigenous peoples">Talk:Genocide of Indigenous peoples#Requested move 25 May 2024</a> – Lowercase "indigenous" in a generic usage? (Result: Lowercase when referring to people generally, but move review opened at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024_July#Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples" title="Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July">Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July#Genocide of indigenous peoples</a>) – Result: Moved back to lowercase indigenous <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(ethnicities_and_tribes)#Indigenous" title="Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)">Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)#Indigenous</a> – continued discussion – petered out in June</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ballistic_Missile_Early_Warning_System#Article_title" title="Talk:Ballistic Missile Early Warning System">Talk:Ballistic Missile Early Warning System#Article title</a> – Use sentence case? Result: Title case, since it's the name of a specific system</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Anyone_but_You#Requested_move_30_June_2024" title="Talk:Anyone but You">Talk:Anyone but You#Requested move 30 June 2024</a> – Capitalize "but"? Result: Retain lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Blowing_in_from_Chicago#Requested_move_25_June_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Blowing in from Chicago">Talk:Blowing in from Chicago#Requested move 25 June 2024</a> – Uppercase "in"? Result: Uppercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Digital_Light_Processing#Requested_move_18_June_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Digital Light Processing">Talk:Digital Light Processing#Requested move 18 June 2024</a> – Should this be "digital light processing"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Blue_Dragon_(video_game)#Requested_move_9_June_2024" title="Talk:Blue Dragon (video game)">Talk:Blue Dragon (video game)#Requested move 9 June 2024</a> – Is the capitalization sufficient to identify the video game? Result: No, retain disambiguator.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Bini_(group)#Requested_move_18_June_2024" title="Talk:Bini (group)">Talk:Bini (group)#Requested move 18 June 2024</a> – Use all-caps? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Cross-Strait_relations#Requested_move_14_June_2024_(about_capitalization)" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Cross-Strait relations">Talk:Cross-Strait relations#Requested move 14 June 2024 (about capitalization)</a> (six articles) – Should "cross" and "strait" be lowercase? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Popverse#Redirect_templates" title="Talk:Popverse">Talk:Popverse#Redirect templates</a> – Should the "avoided double redirect" tag to applied on a correctly capitalized redirect when there's a similar but miscapitalized redirect? Or should only the miscapitalized one be so tagged? Result – Removed tag from correctly capitalized <a href="/wiki/Popverse" class="mw-redirect" title="Popverse">Popverse</a> as inappropriate, and left it on <a href="/wiki/PopVerse" class="mw-redirect" title="PopVerse">PopVerse</a> which is miscapitalized.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:IMP.#Requested_move_9_June_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:IMP.">Talk:IMP.#Requested move 9 June 2024</a> – All-caps for this shortened form of "Impactors"? Result: All-caps retained since sources seem to do that.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_N-Word_(film)#Requested_move_24_May_2024" title="Talk:The N-Word (film)">Talk:The N-Word (film)#Requested move 24 May 2024</a> – Is the capitalization and hyphen sufficient disambiguation to identify this film? – Result: Disambiguated.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NoBull#Requested_move_29_May_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NoBull">Talk:NoBull#Requested move 29 May 2024</a> – All-caps? Result: Not moved.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Giant_Center#Requested_move_29_May_2024" title="Talk:Giant Center">Talk:Giant Center#Requested move 29 May 2024</a> – All-caps for "Giant"? Result: Mixed-case retained.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Motor_Launch#Requested_move_12_May_2024" title="Talk:Motor Launch">Talk:Motor Launch#Requested move 12 May 2024</a> – lowercase Launch and disambiguate? – Result: moved to <a href="/wiki/Motor_launch_(naval)" title="Motor launch (naval)">Motor launch (naval)</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1999_NAIA_Football_National_Championship#Requested_move_11_May_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1999 NAIA Football National Championship">Talk:1999 NAIA Football National Championship#Requested_move_11_May_2024</a> – lowercase football national championship? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Djurg%C3%A5rdens_IF_Hockey#Requested_move_16_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Djurgårdens IF Hockey">Talk:Djurgårdens IF Hockey#Requested move 16 April 2024</a> – Lowercase hockey? Or other alternative? Result: Lowercase hockey in a disambiguation term (<a href="/wiki/Djurg%C3%A5rdens_IF_(men%27s_hockey)" title="Djurgårdens IF (men's hockey)">Djurgårdens IF (men's hockey)</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ae_Fond_Kiss_(song)#Requested_move_2_May_2024" title="Talk:Ae Fond Kiss (song)">Talk:Ae Fond Kiss (song)#Requested move 2 May 2024</a> – Sentence case as <a href="/wiki/MOS:INCIPIT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INCIPIT">MOS:INCIPIT</a>? Result: No consensus</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Rub-A-Dub-Dub#Requested_move_2_May_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Rub-A-Dub-Dub">Talk:Rub-A-Dub-Dub#Requested move 2 May 2024</a> – Lowercase "A"? Result: Not changed; capitalization considered a secondary issue in an RM for disambiguation</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pied-Noir#Lowercase" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Pied-Noir">Talk:Pied-Noir#Lowercase</a> – Lowercase "Pied-Noir" (or use "Pied-noir" or "Pieds-Noirs" or "Pieds-noirs" or "pieds-noirs")? Result: Lowercase "noirs", leaning lowercase for "pieds" as well.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Theory_of_forms#Requested_move_28_April_2024" title="Talk:Theory of forms">Talk:Theory of forms#Requested move 28 April 2024</a> – Back to capitalizing Forms? Result: Retain lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:More_than_This#Requested_move_8_May_2024" title="Talk:More than This">Talk:More than This#Requested move 8 May 2024</a> (three articles) – Lowercase "Than"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ave_Maria_..._Virgo_serena#Requested_move_8_May_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ave Maria ... Virgo serena">Talk:Ave Maria ... Virgo serena#Requested move 8 May 2024</a> – Lowercase "Virgo"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:More_than_a_Game#Requested_move_5_May_2024" title="Talk:More than a Game">Talk:More than a Game#Requested move 5 May 2024</a> – Uppercase "than"? Result: Lowercase (per <a href="/wiki/MOS:CT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:CT">MOS:CT</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:UFL_Championship_Game#Requested_move_5_May_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:UFL Championship Game">Talk:UFL Championship Game#Requested move 5 May 2024</a> – Lowercase championship game? – Result: Lowercase championship game</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pistol_Shrimp_Games#Requested_move_3_May_2024" title="Talk:Pistol Shrimp Games">Talk:Pistol Shrimp#Requested move 3 May 2024</a> – Is the uppercase letter sufficient disambiguation to indicate that the topic is a video game company? – Result: moved to <a href="/wiki/Pistol_Shrimp_Games" title="Pistol Shrimp Games">Pistol Shrimp Games</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:When_I_was_a_Bachelor#Requested_move_2_May_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:When I was a Bachelor">Talk:When I was a Bachelor#Requested move 2 May 2024</a> – Uppercase "was"? Lowercase "Bachelor"? – Result: Uppercase Was</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NAIA_Ice_Hockey_Championship#Requested_move_3_May_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NAIA Ice Hockey Championship">Talk:NAIA Ice Hockey Championship#Requested move 3 May 2024</a> – Change to sentence case? – Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:AFC_Championship_Game#Requested_move_29_April_2024" title="Talk:AFC Championship Game">Talk:AFC Championship Game#Requested move 29 April 2024</a> – Lowercase "championship game" for 9 AFC and NFC articles and 2 templates? – Result: For the AFC and NFC, keep Championship Game uppercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1933_NFL_Championship_Game#Requested_move_3_May_2024" title="Talk:1933 NFL Championship Game">Talk:1933 NFL Championship Game#Requested move 3 May 2024</a> – 38 articles, lowercase "championship game"? – Result: For the NFL, keep Championship Game uppercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Tunisian_Revolution#Requested_move_21_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Tunisian Revolution">Talk:Tunisian Revolution#Requested move 21 April 2024</a> – Lowercase revolution? – Result: Lowercase revolution</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:But_what_about_the_noise...#Requested_move_11_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:But what about the noise...">Talk:But what about the noise...#Requested move 11 April 2024</a> – Change to title case? – Result: Yes, caps for "What", "About" and "Noise".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Statute_of_Autonomy#Requested_move_30_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Statute of Autonomy">Talk:Statute of Autonomy#Requested move 30 April 2024</a> – Lowercase "Autonomy"? – Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Sturges%27_Rule#Requested_move_24_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Sturges' Rule">Talk:Sturges' Rule#Requested move 24 April 2024</a> – Lowercase rule? And s after apostrophe per <a href="/wiki/MOS:POSS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:POSS">MOS:POSS</a>? – Result: Lowercase rule and add the s</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:ULTra_(rapid_transit)#Requested_move_16_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:ULTra (rapid transit)">Talk:ULTra (rapid transit)#Requested move 16 March 2024</a> – Lowercase the second and third letters of the name? – Result: downcase to Ultra</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Cretan_School#Requested_move_25_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Cretan School">Talk:Cretan School#Requested move 25 April 2024</a> – Lowercase on these three "schools"? – Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:This_Is_the_House_That_Jack_Built#Requested_move_2_May_2024" title="Talk:This Is the House That Jack Built">Talk:This Is the House That Jack Built#Requested move 2 May 2024</a> (ten articles) – Lowercase "That"? Sentence case one as <a href="/wiki/MOS:INCIPIT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INCIPIT">MOS:INCIPIT</a>? – Result: Withdrawn</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template_talk:R_from_miscapitalisation#Template_intent" title="Template talk:R from miscapitalisation">Template talk:R from miscapitalisation#Template intent</a> – No clear consensus on when to tag as miscapitalization.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Love_Etc.#Requested_move_13_April_2024" title="Talk:Love Etc.">Talk:Love Etc.#Requested move 13 April 2024</a> – Uppercase "etc" in the novel article title <a href="/wiki/Love,_etc_(novel)" class="mw-redirect" title="Love, etc (novel)">Love, etc (novel)</a>? Result: Yes, uppercase as the last word of the title of a published work.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NHL_Entry_Draft#Requested_move_14_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NHL Entry Draft">Talk:NHL Entry Draft#Requested move 14 April 2024</a> – 71 articles; downcase "Entry Draft" and "Amateur Draft"? Result: Yes, lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Conference_Finals#Requested_move_13_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Conference Finals">Talk:Conference Finals#Requested move 13 April 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Yes, lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:KHL_Conference_Finals#Requested_move_13_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:KHL Conference Finals">Talk:KHL Conference Finals#Requested move 13 April 2024</a> – Lowercase? Result: Yes, lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Good_Vibrations:_Thirty_Years_of_The_Beach_Boys#Requested_move_13_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Good Vibrations: Thirty Years of The Beach Boys">Talk:Good Vibrations: Thirty Years of The Beach Boys#Requested move 13 April 2024</a> – Lowercase "The"? Result: Yes, lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_the_Yemeni_Crisis_(2011%E2%80%93present)#Requested_move_10_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Timeline of the Yemeni Crisis (2011–present)">Talk:Timeline of the Yemeni Crisis (2011–present)#Requested move 10 April 2024</a> – Multi; lowercase "Civil War", "Revolution", and "Crisis"? Result: Yes, lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1973_Australian_referendum_(Incomes)#Requested_move_1_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1973 Australian referendum (Incomes)">Talk:1973 Australian referendum (Incomes)#Requested move 1 April 2024</a> (four articles) – Change the capitalized topic identifiers in parentheses? Result: Reworded with lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Daddy,_what_did_you_do_in_the_Great_War%3F#Requested_move_6_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Daddy, what did you do in the Great War?">Talk:Daddy, what did you do in the Great War?#Requested move 6 April 2024</a> – Change to title case? Result: Title case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1933_German_referendum#Requested_move_23_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1933 German referendum">Talk:1933 German referendum#Requested move 23 February 2024</a> (4 articles) – Uppercase or lowercase for "Freedom Law" in one suggested title? Result: "Freedom Law" replaced with the name of a specific program</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Attack_on_the_Azerbaijani_Embassy_in_Tehran#Requested_move_7_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Attack on the Azerbaijani Embassy in Tehran">Talk:Attack on the Azerbaijani Embassy in Tehran#Requested move 7 April 2024</a> – Lowercase "Embassy"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Can_You_Hear_Me%3F_(telephone_scam)#Requested_move_6_April_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Can You Hear Me? (telephone scam)">Talk:Can You Hear Me? (telephone scam)#Requested move 6 April 2024</a> – Change to sentence case? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Is_this_music%3F&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:Is this music? (page does not exist)">Talk:Is this music?#Requested move 6 April 2024</a> – Change to title case? Result: Yes. – subsequently deleted per AFD discussion</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:October_2023_speaker_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives_election#Requested_move_29_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:October 2023 speaker of the United States House of Representatives election">Talk:October 2023 speaker of the United States House of Representatives election#Requested move 29 March 2024</a> – Switch to "speakership" with rephrasing? (after revert of bold moves to lowercase) Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:CFL_Draft#Requested_move_27_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:CFL Draft">Talk:CFL Draft#Requested move 27 March 2024</a> – Lowercase Draft, Expansion Draft, Dispersal Draft, Global Draft? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:UK_Singles_Chart#Requested_move_12_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:UK Singles Chart">Talk:UK Singles Chart#Requested move 12 March 2024</a> – Lowercase "singles chart" in 17 article titles? (170 more later identified) Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Negev_desert_road_ambush" title="Talk:Negev desert road ambush">Talk:Negev desert road ambush</a> – Uppercase "desert"? Result: No consensus to rename</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums/Archive_73#WP:THEBAND_in_article_titles" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums/Archive 73">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums/Archive 73#WP:THEBAND in article titles</a> – Capitalize "the" in band names in article titles? Result Discussion archived without a clear conclusion</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2024_NWSL_Expansion_Draft#Requested_move_17_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2024 NWSL Expansion Draft">Talk:2024 NWSL Expansion Draft#Requested move 17 March 2024</a> – Multi; lowercase "expansion draft" and such? Result: Lowercase "expansion draft"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M1126_infantry_carrier_vehicle#Requested_move_18_March_2024" title="Talk:M1126 infantry carrier vehicle">Talk:M1126 infantry carrier vehicle#Requested move 18 March 2024</a> (10 articles) – Lowercase vehicle descriptions? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:National_Signing_Day#Requested_move_28_March_2024" title="Talk:National Signing Day">Talk:National Signing Day#Requested move 28 March 2024</a> – Lowercase "signing day"? Result: Uppercase retained.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:A_Chip_Off_the_Old_Block_(album)#Requested_move_27_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:A Chip Off the Old Block (album)">Talk:A Chip Off the Old Block (album)#Requested move 27 March 2024</a> – Lowercase "Off"? Result: Lowercase as a preposition per MOS:CT</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Automatic_Train_Protection_(United_Kingdom)#Requested_move_25_March_2024" title="Talk:Automatic Train Protection (United Kingdom)">Talk:Automatic Train Protection (United_Kingdom)#Requested move 25 March 2024</a> – Lowercase like the generic <a href="/wiki/Automatic_train_protection" title="Automatic train protection">Automatic train protection</a>? Result: No; retain caps as the name of a specific system.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:ICON_Park#Requested_move_25_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:ICON Park">Talk:ICON Park#Requested move 25 March 2024</a> – Drop the all-caps for "ICON"? Result: Yes, change "ICON" to "Icon".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2017_Speaker_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives_election#Requested_move_13_March_2024" title="Talk:2017 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election">Talk:2017 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election#Requested move 13 March 2024</a> – Lowercase "Speaker"? (Switch to "speakership?) Result: Procedurally withdrawn to open a discussion of a somewhat different suggestion</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Minister_of_Innovation,_Science_and_Industry#Requested_move_19_March_2024" title="Talk:Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry">Talk:Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry#Requested move 19 March 2024</a> – Lowercase job title? Result: No, the topic is the formal title</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Flatiron_buildings#Requested_move_19_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Flatiron buildings">Talk:List of Flatiron buildings#Requested move 19 March 2024</a> – Lowercase "Flatiron"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Van_Buren#Requested_move_14_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Battle of Van Buren">Talk:Battle of Van Buren#Requested move 14 March 2024</a> – Move to "Van Buren R|raid"? Result: Yes, with lowercase "raid"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Just_Like_Heaven#Requested_move_10_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Just Like Heaven">Talk:Just Like Heaven#Requested move 10 March 2024</a> (4 articles) – Lowercase "Like"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Blue_Water_Thesis#Requested_move_19_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Blue Water Thesis">Talk:Blue Water Thesis#Requested move 19 March 2024</a> – Sentence case the title for this concept? Result: Sentence case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ma!_(He%27s_Making_Eyes_At_Me)#Requested_move_10_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ma! (He's Making Eyes At Me)">Talk:Ma! (He's Making Eyes At Me)#Requested move 10 March 2024</a> – Lowercase "at"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:KAIROS#Requested_move_18_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:KAIROS">Talk:KAIROS#Requested move 18 March 2024</a> – Drop the all-caps for this Canadian organization? Result: Not all-caps.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1991_NHL_Dispersal_and_Expansion_Drafts#Requested_move_17_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1991 NHL Dispersal and Expansion Drafts">Talk:1991 NHL Dispersal and Expansion Drafts#Requested move 17 March 2024</a> – Multi; lowercase "expansion draft" and such? Result: Lowercase <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:AAF_QB_Draft#Requested_move_17_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:AAF QB Draft">Talk:AAF QB Draft#Requested move 17 March 2024</a> – Multi; more lowercasing of draft? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2001_WUSA_Supplemental_Draft#Requested_move_17_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2001 WUSA Supplemental Draft">Talk:2001 WUSA Supplemental Draft#Requested move 17 March 2024</a> – Multi; lowercasing of "supplemental draft"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:MLS_Supplemental_Draft#Requested_move_17_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:MLS Supplemental Draft">Talk:MLS Supplemental Draft#Requested move 17 March 2024</a> – Multi; more lowercasing of "supplemental draft"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NHL_Supplemental_Draft#Requested_move_17_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NHL Supplemental Draft">Talk:NHL Supplemental Draft#Requested move 17 March 2024</a> – Multi; more lowercasing of "supplemental draft"? Result: Lowercase</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_American_Physical_Society_Fellows#Requested_move_17_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of American Physical Society Fellows">Talk:List of American Physical Society Fellows#Requested move 17 March 2024</a> (5 articles) – Lowercase "Fellows"? Result: Lowercase (and reworded)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Honorary_Fellows_of_Christ%27s_College,_Cambridge#Requested_move_17_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Honorary Fellows of Christ's College, Cambridge">Talk:List of Honorary Fellows of Christ's College, Cambridge#Requested move 17 March 2024</a> (46 articles) – Lowercase "Honorary" and "Fellows"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Illit_(group)#Requested_move_10_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Illit (group)">Talk:Illit (group)#Requested move 10 March 2024</a> – All-caps? Result: No (not moved)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_fellows_of_the_Association_for_Computing_Machinery#Requested_move_3_March_2024" title="Talk:List of fellows of the Association for Computing Machinery">Talk:List of fellows of the Association for Computing Machinery#Requested move 3 March 2024</a> – Capitalize "fellows"? Result: Retain lowercase <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Fellows_of_the_British_Academy_elected_in_the_2020s#Requested_move_4_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Fellows of the British Academy elected in the 2020s">Talk:List of Fellows of the British Academy elected in the 2020s#Requested move 4 March 2024</a> (five articles) – Lowercase "Fellows"? Result: Lowercase</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:King_Armored_Car#Requested_move_7_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:King Armored Car">Talk:King Armored Car#Requested move 7 March 2024</a> – Lowercase "Armored" and "Car"? Result Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NVDES#Requested_move_2_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NVDES">Talk:NVDES#Requested move 2 March 2024</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Yes ("Nvdes")</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_CW#Capitalizing_%22the%22" title="Talk:The CW">Talk:The CW#Capitalizing "the"</a> – "The CW" or "the CW" mid-sentence? Result Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ley_de_Lemas#Requested_move_5_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ley de Lemas">Talk:Ley de Lemas#Requested move 5 March 2024</a> – Lowercase "Lemas"? Result Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Optimality_Theory" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Optimality Theory">Talk:Optimality Theory</a> regarding maybe fixing an old undiscussed move after an older no-consensus RM – Result: technical move back to lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Just_like_Heaven_(film)#Requested_move_2_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Just like Heaven (film)">Talk:Just like Heaven (film)#Requested move 2 March 2024</a> – Uppercase "like"? Result Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:DENK_(political_party)#Requested_move_2_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:DENK (political party)">Talk:DENK (political party)#Requested move 2 March 2024</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Yes ("Denk")</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NHL_Conference_Finals#Requested_move_1_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NHL Conference Finals">Talk:NHL Conference Finals#Requested move 1 March 2024</a> – Lowercase "Conference Finals"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1992_PBA_All-Filipino_Conference_Finals#Requested_move_1_March_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1992 PBA All-Filipino Conference Finals">Talk:1992 PBA All-Filipino Conference Finals#Requested move 1 March 2024</a> – 15 titles; lowercase "Finals"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:USFL_Draft#Requested_move_13_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:USFL Draft">Talk:USFL Draft#Requested move 13 February 2024</a> – Lowercase "Draft" (multiple articles)? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:T1_Light_Tank#Requested_move_19_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:T1 Light Tank">Talk:T1 Light Tank#Requested move 19 February 2024</a> (9 articles) – Lowercase "Light"/"Medium"/"Heavy"/"Super" and "Tank"? Result: Lowercase <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Heavy_Tank_M6#Requested_move_21_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Heavy Tank M6">Talk:Heavy Tank M6#Requested move 21 February 2024</a> (7 articles) – More Tanks (or tanks): Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:A7_Medium_Tank#Requested_move_22_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:A7 Medium Tank">Talk:A7 Medium Tank#Requested move 22 February 2024</a> (4 articles) – More Tanks (or tanks), plus an Armored Car: Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ford_3-Ton_M1918#Requested_move_22_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ford 3-Ton M1918">Talk:Ford 3-Ton M1918#Requested move 22 February 2024</a> (1 article) – A 3-Ton (or 3-ton) tank: Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:M1_Armored_Car#Requested_move_25_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:M1 Armored Car">Talk:M1 Armored Car#Requested move 25 February 2024</a> (3 articles) – Two Armored Cars and a Combat Car: Result: Lowercase</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Quantum_Leap#Requested_move_22_February_2024" title="Talk:Quantum Leap">Talk:Quantum Leap#Requested move 22 February 2024</a> – Should the phrase with lowercase 'l' continue to be assumed to be a mis-formatted 1989 TV series name? Result: No, disambiguate.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dancing_On_My_Own#Requested_move_21_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Dancing On My Own">Talk:Dancing On My Own#Requested move 21 February 2024</a> – Lowercase "on" as a preposition? Result: Yes, lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Always_On_the_Run_(Isaak_song)#Requested_move_18_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Always On the Run (Isaak song)">Talk:Always On the Run (Isaak song)#Requested move 18 February 2024</a> – Lowercase "On"? Result: Yes, citing <a href="/wiki/MOS:CT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:CT">MOS:CT</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mughal%E2%80%93Maratha_Wars#Requested_move_8_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Mughal–Maratha Wars">Talk:Mughal–Maratha Wars#Requested move 8 February 2024</a> → – Capitalisation of war and other things? Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/Deccan_wars" title="Deccan wars">Deccan wars</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NBA_Conference_Finals#Requested_move_20_January_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NBA Conference Finals">Talk:NBA Conference Finals#Requested move 20 January 2024</a> – Lowercase "Conference" and/or "Finals"? Result: Lowercase conference finals</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:S%C3%A8vres_Syndrome#Requested_move_15_February_2024" title="Talk:Sèvres Syndrome">Talk:Sèvres Syndrome#Requested move 15 February 2024</a> – Change Syndrome to lower case? Result: Yes, use lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Polish_Cathedral_style#Requested_move_15_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Polish Cathedral style">Talk:Polish Cathedral style#Requested move 15 February 2024</a> – Change Cathedral to lower case? Result: Yes, use lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ehlers%E2%80%93Danlos_syndromes#Requested_move_3_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ehlers–Danlos syndromes">Talk:Ehlers–Danlos syndromes#Requested move 3 February 2024</a> – Capitalize Syndromes, like title case? Result: No, use lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:EUCLID_(university)#Requested_move_8_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:EUCLID (university)">Talk:EUCLID (university)#Requested move 8 February 2024</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Yes , use "Euclid"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Australian_Aboriginal_Flag#Requested_move_13_February_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Australian Aboriginal Flag">Talk:Australian Aboriginal Flag#Requested move 13 February 2024</a> – Lowercase flag and red ensign on 3? Result: Lowercase flag and ensign.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ranger_tab#Requested_move_10_February_2024" title="Talk:Ranger tab">Talk:Ranger tab#Requested move 10 February 2024</a> – uppercase tab? Result: Not moved; no support for capping tab.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Capitalization_of_NFL_draft_article_titles" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Capitalization of NFL draft article titles">Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Capitalization of NFL draft article titles</a> – "NFL Draft" vs "NFL draft" in article text and titles. Result: Lowercase draft; and move the 400 or so affected articles. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive359#Close_review_of_Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Capitalization_of_NFL_draft_article_titles" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive359">Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive359 § Close review of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Capitalization of NFL draft article titles</a> – Result: Close endorsed.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Cow_Hugging_Therapy" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Cow Hugging Therapy">Talk:Cow Hugging Therapy</a> – Sentence case? Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/Cow-hugging_therapy" title="Cow-hugging therapy">Cow-hugging therapy</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Allegro_Non_Troppo#Requested_move_24_January_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Allegro Non Troppo">Talk:Allegro Non Troppo#Requested move 24 January 2024</a> – Sentence case? Result: Moved to lowercase <a href="/wiki/Allegro_non_troppo" title="Allegro non troppo">Allegro non troppo</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Full_Faith_and_Credit_Clause#Requested_move_21_January_2024" title="Talk:Full Faith and Credit Clause">Talk:Full Faith and Credit Clause#Requested move 21 January 2024</a> – Change to sentence case (note that nearly all other <a href="/wiki/Category:Clauses_of_the_United_States_Constitution" title="Category:Clauses of the United States Constitution">other U.S. Constitution clause articles</a> use title case)? Result: No consensus <ul><li>Discussion continued at <a href="/wiki/User_talk:BilledMammal#Close_of_Talk:Full_Faith_and_Credit_Clause#Requested_move_21_January_2024" title="User talk:BilledMammal">User talk:BilledMammal#Close of Talk:Full Faith and Credit Clause#Requested move 21 January 2024</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024_March" title="Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 March">Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 March</a>, then closed with an endorsed conclusion of no consensus</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:California%27s_1st_State_Senatorial_district#Requested_move_17_January_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:California's 1st State Senatorial district">Talk:California's 1st State Senatorial district#Requested move 17 January 2024</a> – Multi-page RM to change "State Senatorial" to simply "senatorial" (other options also presented). Result: Moved, lowercase, dropped State: <a href="/wiki/California%27s_1st_senatorial_district" title="California's 1st senatorial district">California's 1st senatorial district</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:EXO_Travel" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:EXO Travel">Talk:EXO Travel</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/Exo_Travel" title="Exo Travel">Exo Travel</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Variable_Cam_Timing" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Variable Cam Timing">Talk:Variable Cam Timing</a> – Sentence case? Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/Variable_camshaft_timing" title="Variable camshaft timing">Variable camshaft timing</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Connecticut_panhandle#Requested_move_30_January_2024" title="Talk:Connecticut panhandle">Talk:Connecticut panhandle#Requested move 30 January 2024</a> – Follow up to previous multi-move RM. Capitalising panhandle for <a href="/wiki/Northern_Panhandle_of_West_Virginia" class="mw-redirect" title="Northern Panhandle of West Virginia">Northern Panhandle of West Virginia</a> and <a href="/wiki/Eastern_Panhandle_of_West_Virginia" class="mw-redirect" title="Eastern Panhandle of West Virginia">Eastern Panhandle of West Virginia</a>? Result: Lowercase 'panhandle'.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Major_League_Baseball_draft#Requested_move_18_January_2024" title="Talk:Major League Baseball draft">Talk:Major League Baseball draft#Requested move 18 January 2024</a> – Capitalize "Draft"? Result: Lowercase retained.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ford_Police_Interceptor#Requested_move_30_January_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ford Police Interceptor">Talk:Ford Police Interceptor#Requested move 30 January 2024</a> – Generalize the title? Use sentence case? Result: "Ford police vehicles" (sentence case)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Iranian_Principlists#Requested_move_23_January_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Iranian Principlists">Talk:Iranian Principlists#Requested move 23 January 2024</a> – Should it be "Principlists", "principlists", "Principalists", or "principalists"? Result: "principlists" (sentence case)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Brigade_General_(Poland)#Requested_move_30_January_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Brigade General (Poland)">Talk:Brigade General (Poland)#Requested move 30 January 2024</a> – Sentence case? Result: Sentence case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Iranian_Reformists#Requested_move_24_January_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Iranian Reformists">Talk:Iranian Reformists#Requested move 24 January 2024</a> – "Reformists" or "reformists"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States_Capitol_rotunda#Requested_move_22_January_2024" title="Talk:United States Capitol rotunda">Talk:United States Capitol rotunda#Requested move 22 January 2024</a> – Capitalize "Rotunda"? Result No – retain lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Forts_Jackson_and_St._Philip#Requested_move_27_January_2024" title="Talk:Battle of Forts Jackson and St. Philip">Talk:Battle of Forts Jackson and St. Philip#Requested move 27 January 2024</a> – Lowercase forts in the plural form? Result: withdrawn by nom</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:American_Football_League_draft#Requested_move_18_January_2024" title="Talk:American Football League draft">Talk:American Football League draft#Requested move 18 January 2024</a> – Capitalize "Draft"? Result: lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Willie_%22the_Lion%22_Smith" title='Talk:Willie "the Lion" Smith'>Talk:Willie "the Lion" Smith</a> – Willie "The Lion" Smith or Willie "the Lion" Smith? – Result: Clear consensus for lowercase "the". (January 2024)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Connecticut_panhandle#Requested_move_7_January_2024" title="Talk:Connecticut panhandle">Talk:Connecticut panhandle#Requested move 7 January 2024</a> – Also Idaho, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, West Virgina (eastern and northern). Result: Lowercase "panhandle" except no consensus on WV.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:California_Gold_Rush#Requested_move_3_January_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:California Gold Rush">Talk:California Gold Rush#Requested move 3 January 2024</a> – Sentence case? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Game_Awards#%22The_Game_Awards%22_or_%22the_Game_Awards%22" title="Talk:The Game Awards">Talk:The Game Awards#"The Game Awards" or "the Game Awards"</a> – Uppercase "The" mid-sentence? Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Florida_Panhandle#Requested_move_22_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Florida Panhandle">Talk:Florida Panhandle#Requested move 22 December 2023</a> – to ? Result: Lowercase "panhandle".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_grand_master_masons_of_the_Grand_Lodge_of_Scotland#Requested_move_21_December_2023" title="List of grand master masons of the Grand Lodge of Scotland">List of grand master masons of the Grand Lodge of Scotland#Requested move 21 December 2023</a> – Does <a href="/wiki/MOS:JOBTITLES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:JOBTITLES">MOS:JOBTITLES</a> apply to traditional and honorary titles as well? Result: Yes, so lowercase plurals.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Women_in_Refrigerators#Requested_move_14_December_2023" title="Talk:Women in Refrigerators">Talk:Women in Refrigerators#‎Requested move 14 December 2023</a> – Should lowercase distinguish a corpse from a website? Result: Merge the two relevant articles and use sentence case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:10.5%22_Corporate_14_Bolt_Differential#Requested_move_28_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title='Talk:10.5" Corporate 14 Bolt Differential'>Talk:10.5" Corporate 14 Bolt Differential#Requested move 28 December 2023</a> – Sentence case? Result: – Lowercased and hyphenated to <a href="/wiki/GM_10.5-inch_14-bolt_differential" title="GM 10.5-inch 14-bolt differential">GM 10.5-inch 14-bolt differential</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:OXXO#Requested_move_25_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:OXXO">Talk:OXXO#Requested move 25 December 2023</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Not all-caps.</li></ul> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256386598"> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center;"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">2023</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:New_Pop#Requested_move_20_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:New Pop">Talk:New Pop#Requested move 20 December 2023</a> – Lowercase "New Pop"? – Result: lowercase pop</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Aquarius_(beverage)#Requested_move_21_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Aquarius (beverage)">Talk:Aquarius (beverage)#Requested move 21 December 2023</a> – Drop the all-caps for <a href="/wiki/ZICO_(beverage)" class="mw-redirect" title="ZICO (beverage)">ZICO (beverage)</a>? – Result: Yes to "(drink)" and no all-caps for Zico.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Knights_Grand_Cross_of_the_Royal_Victorian_Order_appointed_by_Victoria#Requested_move_22_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Knights Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order appointed by Victoria">Talk:List of Knights Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order appointed by Victoria#Requested move 22 December 2023</a> – Should "Grand Cross" be lowercase along with "knights" and "dames"? Result: Yes, lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Clonfin_Ambush#Requested_move_19_December_2023" title="Talk:Clonfin Ambush">Talk:Clonfin Ambush#Requested move 19 December 2023</a> – Should "Ambush" be lowercased? Result: Yes, sentence case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Right-bank_Ukraine#Requested_move_1_December_2023" title="Talk:Right-bank Ukraine">Talk:Right-bank Ukraine#Requested move 1 December 2023</a> – Uppercase "bank"? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Toy_boy#Requested_move_17_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Toy boy">Talk:Toy boy#‎Requested move 17 December 2023</a> – Should lowercase indicate a boy that is a toy rather than the title of some published works? Result: Yes; disambiguation moved to uppercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:AI_spring#Requested_move_17_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:AI spring">Talk:AI spring#‎Requested move 17 December 2023</a> – Uppercase "spring" as in "<a href="/wiki/Arab_Spring" title="Arab Spring">Arab Spring</a>"? Result: Moved to "AI boom".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Adoration_of_the_Shepherds#Requested_move_14_December_2023" title="Talk:Adoration of the Shepherds">Talk:Adoration of the Shepherds#‎Requested move 14 December 2023</a> – Lowercase Shepherds? Magi? Result: Uppercase retained.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Man_was_made_to_Mourn#Requested_move_13_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Man was made to Mourn">Talk:Man was made to Mourn#‎Requested move 13 December 2023</a> – Capitalize more of the words? Result: Yes, everything but the "to".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Canada_Goose_(clothing)#Requested_move_10_December_2023" title="Talk:Canada Goose (clothing)">Talk:Canada Goose (clothing)#‎Requested move 10 December 2023</a> – Is capping sufficient to distinguish a clothing brand from a bird? Result: No; continue to disambiguate the title case term.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Local_Access_Alert#Requested_move_10_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Local Access Alert">Talk:Local Access Alert#Requested move 10 December 2023</a> – Sentence case? Result: Yes, sentence case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Its_name_was_Penelope#Requested_move_9_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Its name was Penelope">Talk:Its name was Penelope#Requested move 9 December 2023</a> – Use title case? Result: Yes, capitalize as usual for the title of a published work.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2023_October_23#JUNIPER" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 23">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 23#JUNIPER</a> → <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2023_November_1#JUNIPER" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 1">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 1#JUNIPER</a> → <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2023_November_8#JUNIPER" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 8">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 8#JUNIPER</a> → <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2023_November_15#JUNIPER" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 15">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 15#JUNIPER</a> – Should the all-caps version of juniper redirect to <a href="/wiki/Juniper_(disambiguation)" class="mw-disambig" title="Juniper (disambiguation)">Juniper (disambiguation)</a> or to the differently spelled <a href="/wiki/Junlper" title="Junlper">Junlper</a>? Result: Continue disambiguation of the all-caps term</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Football_League/Archive_22#Capitalization_of_%22Week%22_in_%22Week_#%22_in_Articles" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 22">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 22#Capitalization of "Week" in "Week #" in Articles</a> – Should the word "week" preceding the week number be capitalized? Result: Archived without a very clear outcome</li> <li>Capitalization of short prepositions followed by an ellipsis at the end of a title: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:In_Search_of#Requested_move_7_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:In Search of">Talk:In Search of#Requested move 7 December 2023</a> – Lowercase "of" for <a href="/wiki/In_Search_Of..._(Fu_Manchu_album)" class="mw-redirect" title="In Search Of... (Fu Manchu album)">In Search Of... (Fu Manchu album)</a>? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Death_on_Two_Legs_(Dedicated_to...)#Requested_move_7_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Death on Two Legs (Dedicated to...)">Talk:Death on Two Legs (Dedicated to...)#Requested move 7 December 2023</a> – Uppercase "To"? Result: Rapidly withdrawn. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Death_on_Two_Legs_(Dedicated_to...)#Another_requested_move_7_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Death on Two Legs (Dedicated to...)">Talk:Death on Two Legs (Dedicated to...)#Another requested move 7 December 2023</a> – Remove the parenthetical to avoid the "to", which may or may not need to be capitalized? Result: Yes.</li></ul></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Neo_da_Matrix#Requested_move_7_December_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Neo da Matrix">Talk:Neo da Matrix#Requested move 7 December 2023</a> – Capitalize "da"? Result: Capitalize (note exception in <a href="/wiki/MOS:THEMUSIC" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:THEMUSIC">MOS:THEMUSIC</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:GIGA_Connect#Requested_move_29_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:GIGA Connect">Talk:GIGA Connect#Requested move 29 November 2023</a> – Is all-caps justified? Result: Mixed case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:GIGA_Television#Requested_move_29_November_2023" title="Talk:GIGA Television">Talk:GIGA Television#Requested move 29 November 2023</a> – Is all-caps justified? Result: RM closed as not moved for a different reason, without addressing caps issue.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Big_wheel_(tricycle)#Requested_move_28_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Big wheel (tricycle)">Talk:Big wheel (tricycle)#Requested move 28 November 2023</a> – Capitalize "wheel" for brand-name product? Result: Title case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Here_Are_The_Sonics#Requested_move_19_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Here Are The Sonics">Talk:Here Are The Sonics#Requested move 19 November 2023</a> – Lowercase "The"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pecorino_Romano#Requested_move_19_November_2023" title="Talk:Pecorino Romano">Talk:Pecorino Romano#Requested move 19 November 2023</a> and <a href="/wiki/Talk:Caff%C3%A8_Americano#Requested_move_19_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Caffè Americano">Talk:Caffè Americano#Requested move 19 November 2023</a> – Italicize and lowercase since it's an Italian, not English, name? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:3YOURMIND#Requested_move_21_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:3YOURMIND">Talk:3YOURMIND#Requested move 21 November 2023</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Mixed case.</li> <li>(Three pages) <a href="/wiki/Talk:USA_Today_All-USA_high_school_baseball_team#Requested_move_17_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:USA Today All-USA high school baseball team">Talk:USA Today All-USA high school baseball team#Requested move 17 November 2023</a> – Change to title case? Result: Title case.</li> <li>(Two-page) <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Orders_in_Council_for_Northern_Ireland#Requested_move_17_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Orders in Council for Northern Ireland">Talk:List of Orders in Council for Northern Ireland#Requested move 17 November 2023</a> – Change "orders" to lowercase? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li>(Multi-page) <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Statutory_Rules_and_Orders_of_the_United_Kingdom#Requested_move_17_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Statutory Rules and Orders of the United Kingdom">Talk:List of Statutory Rules and Orders of the United Kingdom#Requested move 17 November 2023</a> – Change "statutory rules", "statutory orders", and "statutory instruments" to lowercase? (Applies to multiple lists not included in request) Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Allegations_of_CIA_drug_trafficking#Requested_move_8_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Allegations of CIA drug trafficking">Talk:Allegations of CIA drug trafficking#Requested move 8 November 2023</a> – Change to title case? Result: Title case suggestion dropped.</li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kekma_Forum&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:Kekma Forum (page does not exist)">Talk:Kekma Forum#Requested move 13 November 2023</a> – Rename to all-caps? Result: Retain mixed case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:ANU_%E2%80%93_Museum_of_the_Jewish_People#Requested_move_13_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:ANU – Museum of the Jewish People">Talk:ANU – Museum of the Jewish People#Requested move 13 November 2023</a> – A <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ALLCAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ALLCAPS">WP:ALLCAPS</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TITLETM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TITLETM">WP:TITLETM</a> / <a href="/wiki/MOS:SIGCAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:SIGCAPS">MOS:SIGCAPS</a> / <a href="/wiki/MOS:TM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TM">MOS:TM</a> case (presented as if an acronym but is not one) Result: "Anu", not "ANU".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Third-Worldism#Requested_move_5_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Third-Worldism">Talk:Third-Worldism#Requested move 5 November 2023</a> – Third-worldism? Third Worldism? Result: Third-worldism.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_National_Monuments_in_Connacht#Requested_move_8_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of National Monuments in Connacht">Talk:List of National Monuments in Connacht#Requested move 8 November 2023</a> – Lowercase "National" and "Monuments"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:DMA%27s#Requested_move_3_October_2023" title="Talk:DMA's">Talk:DMA's#Requested move 3 October 2023</a> – cap the final S? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:American_fuzzy_lop_(fuzzer)#Requested_move_3_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:American fuzzy lop (fuzzer)">Talk:American fuzzy lop (fuzzer)#Requested move 3 November 2023</a> – Does lowercase identify the software package and distinguish it from the breed of rabbit? Should it instead by capped like a proper name? Result: Caps; it's a proper name.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Chincoteague_Pony#Requested_move_3_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Chincoteague Pony">Talk:Chincoteague Pony#Requested move 3 November 2023</a> – Lowercase pony? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:LIGNA#Requested_move_4_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:LIGNA">Talk:LIGNA#Requested move 4 November 2023</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Lowercase except the first letter of the word.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:SING!#Requested_move_1_November_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:SING!">Talk:SING!#Requested move 1 November 2023</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Lowercase except the first letter of the word.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Marco_Polo_Bridge_Incident#Requested_move_31_October_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Marco Polo Bridge Incident">Talk:Marco Polo Bridge Incident#Requested move 31 October 2023</a> – :owercase incident in 3 such article titles? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ai#Requested_move_29_October_2023" title="Talk:Ai">Talk:Ai#Requested move 29 October 2023</a> – Does the lowercase 'i' imply that <a href="/wiki/Artificial_intelligence" title="Artificial intelligence">artificial intelligence</a> is not the primary topic? Result: Retain disambiguation.</li> <li>(22 articles) <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Acts_of_the_Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom#Requested_move_26_October_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom">Talk:List of Acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom#Requested move 26 October 2023</a> – Should Acts be capitalized? Applies to many lists. Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_spaghetti_Westerns#Requested_move_1_November_2023" title="Talk:List of spaghetti Westerns">Talk:List of spaghetti Westerns#Requested move 1 November 2023</a> – Try again to reach a consensus about how to capitalize? Result: Withdrawn to give it a rest.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Anti-Spiritual_Pollution_Campaign#Requested_move_27_October_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Anti-Spiritual Pollution Campaign">Talk:Anti-Spiritual Pollution Campaign#Requested move 27 October 2023</a> – Lowercase or rephrase some of that? Result: Rephrase in sentence case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Infobox_UK_place#All-caps" title="Template talk:Infobox UK place">Template talk:Infobox UK place#All-caps</a> – Should the template give post_town parameter in all-caps (e.g. "LONDON")? Result: avoid all-caps in WP.</li> <li><a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#Capitalization_of_%22the_Strait%22,_%22the_Bay%22,_etc.">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Capitalization of "the Strait", "the Bay", etc.</a> – Result: Lowercase except when part of a name.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:MF_Doom#Alteration_in_opening_paragraph._MF_Doom,_stylized_in_the_form_%22MF_DOOM%22" title="Talk:MF Doom">Talk:MF Doom#Alteration in opening paragraph. MF Doom, stylized in the form "MF DOOM"</a> – Does MOS:ALLCAPS apply to artist names. Result: Avoid all-caps.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Freemasonry#Capitalization" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Freemasonry">WT:WikiProject Freemasonry#Capitalization</a> – Where do we draw the line of capitalization of offices and such in Freemasonry? Result: Some say just follow <a href="/wiki/MOS:OFFICE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:OFFICE">MOS:OFFICE</a>, others want to follow Freemasonry's conventions. No clear consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#International_incidents_and_affairs" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#International incidents and affairs</a> – Should named <a href="/wiki/International_incident" title="International incident">international incidents</a> and <a href="/wiki/Political_scandal" title="Political scandal">political scandals</a> be capitalized? Result: Pretty standard; only rarely are such terms consistently capped in sources; lowercase the others.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Western_music_(North_America)#Capitalization" title="Talk:Western music (North America)">Talk:Western music (North America)#Capitalization</a> – Should "western" remain capitalized in mid-sentence in this article (and in <a href="/wiki/Western_(genre)" title="Western (genre)">Western (genre)</a>, <a href="/wiki/Spaghetti_Western" title="Spaghetti Western">Spaghetti Western</a>, <a href="/wiki/Science_fiction_Western" title="Science fiction Western">Science fiction Western</a> and <a href="/wiki/Space_Western" title="Space Western">Space Western</a>)? Result: Not totally clear, but mostly lowercase "western" for western music in America (as opposed to Western vs Eastern/Oriental/Asian music), but usually capitalized Western for movie genres.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2011_Census_of_India#Requested_move_23_October_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2011 Census of India">Talk:2011 Census of India#Requested move 23 October 2023</a> – lowercase "Census"? Result: Moved all to lowercase census.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Anti-Bourgeois_liberalization#Requested_move_23_October_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Anti-Bourgeois liberalization">Talk:Anti-Bourgeois liberalization#Requested move 23 October 2023</a> – Lowercase "Bourgeois" (or rephrase or change the hyphen to a dash)? Result: Not moved to the proposed "Against Bourgeois liberalization". Subsequently downcased -bourgeois.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ho_Mobile#Requested_move_15_October_2023" title="Talk:Ho Mobile">Talk:Ho Mobile#Requested move 15 October 2023</a> – Move to all-lowercase (hyphenated)? Result: Not moved.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Koryo-saram#Requested_move_10_October_2023" title="Talk:Koryo-saram">Talk:Koryo-saram#Requested move 10 October 2023</a> – Capitalize Saram? Remove hyphen? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Old_Woman_and_her_Pig#Requested_move_23_October_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:The Old Woman and her Pig">Talk:The Old Woman and her Pig#Requested move 23 October 2023</a> – Capitalize "her" in title of nursery rhyme? Or sentence case like the opening sentence? Result: Uppercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Never_Be_Like_You#Requested_move_22_October_2023" title="Talk:Never Be Like You">Talk:Never Be Like You#Requested move 22 October 2023</a> – Uppercase "like" in song title? Result: Uppercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#RfC_on_capitalization_after_a_colon_or_dash" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#RfC on capitalization after a colon or dash 27 Oct 2023</a> – Result Letters after a colon or dash may be capitalized. Minor changes to MOS specific pages and sections.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Ayatollahs#Requested_move_17_October_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Ayatollahs">Talk:List of Ayatollahs#Requested move 17 October 2023</a> – Lowercase for plural of title? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Removal_of_Kevin_McCarthy#Requested_move_8_October_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Removal of Kevin McCarthy">Talk:Removal of Kevin McCarthy#Requested move 8 October 2023</a> – Was he Speaker or speaker? Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/Removal_of_Kevin_McCarthy_as_Speaker_of_the_House" title="Removal of Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House">Removal of Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Io_(film)#Requested_move_26_September_2023" title="Talk:Io (film)">Talk:Io (film)#Requested move 26 September 2023</a> – Io vs IO for title based on Jupiter's moon. Result: No, allcaps unanimously opposed.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Italian_Empire#Requested_move_18_September_2023" title="Talk:Italian Empire">Talk:Italian Empire#Requested move 18 September 2023</a> – Case of "empire" among other things. Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Let%27s_Play" title="Talk:Let's Play">Talk:Let's Play</a> – Lowercase "Play"? Result: No consensus.</li> <li>(multi-page) <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Lord_Lieutenants_of_Anglesey#Requested_move_27_September_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Lord Lieutenants of Anglesey">Talk:List of Lord Lieutenants of Anglesey#Requested move 27 September 2023</a> – Lowercase the plurals of some titles? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Apple_Campus#Requested_move_15_September_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Apple Campus">Talk:Apple Campus#Requested move 15 September 2023</a> – Lowercase "campus" while we're at it? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2022_European_Wrestling_Championships_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_Freestyle_57_kg#Requested_move_17_September_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2022 European Wrestling Championships – Men's Freestyle 57 kg">Talk:2022 European Wrestling Championships – Men's Freestyle 57 kg#Requested move 17 September 2023</a> – Multi-RM – Lowercase 206 "freestyle" wresting event titles? Result: Yes, lowercased "freestyle" in 206 articles (moves done by TolBot); still seeking AWB help for case cleanup in linking articles.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_spaghetti_Westerns#Requested_move_30_August_2023" title="Talk:List of spaghetti Westerns">Talk:List of spaghetti Westerns#Requested move 30 August 2023</a> → <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2023_September" title="Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2023 September">Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2023 September</a> – Lowercase "Westerns"? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NTV_Plus#Requested_move_15_September_2023" title="Talk:NTV Plus">Talk:NTV Plus#Requested move 15 September 2023</a> – Is all-caps an appropriate distinction between Russian and Nepali TV channels? Result: No; use ordinary title case for proper name, not all-caps.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:August_2023_Mid-South_U.S._floods#Requested_move_22_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods">Talk:August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods#Requested move 22 August 2023</a> – should "South" be lowercased after a hyphen? Result: Lowercase (see also subsequent revert request below). <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mid-South_(region)#Requested_move_24_August_2023" title="Talk:Mid-South (region)">Talk:Mid-South (region)#Requested move 24 August 2023</a> – same question. Result: No (inconsistent with the outcome of <a href="/wiki/August_2023_mid-south_U.S._floods" title="August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods">August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mid-South_Derecho_of_2003#Requested_move_30_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Mid-South Derecho of 2003">Talk:Mid-South Derecho of 2003#Requested move 30 August 2023</a> – same question, along with capitalization of "Derecho". Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/Mid-south_derecho" class="mw-redirect" title="Mid-south derecho">Mid-south derecho</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:August_2023_mid-south_U.S._floods#Requested_move_16_September_2023" title="Talk:August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods">Talk:August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods#Requested move 16 September 2023</a> – Revert the RM of a few days earlier to use uppercase again? Result: Not moved.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Project_MUSE#Requested_move_6_September_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Project MUSE">Talk:Project MUSE#Requested move 6 September 2023</a> – Drop the all-caps? – Result: Mixed case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Sangaku#Capitalization" title="Talk:Sangaku">Talk:Sangaku#Capitalization</a>: is the article title just an ordinary Japanese word borrowed into English, or a proper noun? (note - while the discussion was not formally closed, all instances are now in lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Offspring_members#Requested_move_11_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Offspring members">Talk:List of Offspring members#Requested move 11 August 2023</a> – move to a title using "The Offspring" or "the Offspring" (or no definite article)? – Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Offspring" title="List of members of the Offspring">List of members of the Offspring</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Unfriendly_Countries_List#Requested_move_30_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Unfriendly Countries List">Talk:Unfriendly Countries List#Requested move 30 August 2023</a> – Sentence case? – Result: Sentence case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:ASmallWorld#Requested_move_7_September_2023" title="Talk:ASmallWorld">Talk:ASmallWorld#Requested move 7 September 2023</a> – All-caps? All-lowercase? – Result: Not moved (no consensus?); left as CamelCase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Candy_bar_protest#Requested_move_29_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Candy bar protest">Talk:Candy bar protest#Requested move 29 August 2023</a> – Cap as a proper noun? – Result: No, and moved to <a href="/wiki/Chocolate_bar_strike" title="Chocolate bar strike">Chocolate bar strike</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Leaving_Certificate_(Ireland)#Requested_move_28_August_2023" title="Talk:Leaving Certificate (Ireland)">Talk:Leaving Certificate (Ireland)#Requested move 28 August 2023</a> – Lowercase "Certificate"? Result: not moved for the Irish case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Future_Tripping#Requested_move_28_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Future Tripping">Talk:Future Tripping#Requested move 28 August 2023</a> – Lowercase the second word? Result: Yes but moved to <a href="/wiki/Anticipatory_anxiety" title="Anticipatory anxiety">Anticipatory anxiety</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Helicopter_Flight_Rescue_System#Requested_move_22_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Helicopter Flight Rescue System">Talk:Helicopter Flight Rescue System#Requested move 22 August 2023</a> – change to use sentence case? Result: Changed to sentence case, but not to the proposed shorter title</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:First_Battle_of_Lyman#Requested_move_28_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:First Battle of Lyman">Talk:First Battle of Lyman#Requested move 28 August 2023</a> (also for second battle) – lowercase battle? Result: Yes, consensus for lowercase battle</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Iris_menas#Requested_move_29_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Iris menas">Talk:Iris menas#Requested move 29 August 2023</a> – Capitalize the person's name? Result: Yes, follow conventional caps for this personal name</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Justices_of_the_High_Court_of_Australia#Requested_move_2_September_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Justices of the High Court of Australia">Talk:List of Justices of the High Court of Australia#Requested move 2 September 2023</a> – Does the Australian Constitution supersede <a href="/wiki/MOS:JOBTITLES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:JOBTITLES">MOS:JOBTITLES</a>? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Ministers_of_Foreign_Affairs_of_Turkey#Requested_move_1_September_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Turkey">Talk:List of Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Turkey#Requested move 1 September 2023</a> – Lowercase plural position title? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Sluggish_cognitive_tempo#Requested_move_12_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Sluggish cognitive tempo">Talk:Sluggish cognitive tempo#Requested move 12 August 2023</a> – "Cognitive Disengagement Syndrome" or "Cognitive disengagement syndrome" (or not) Result: Sentence case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Yemeni_Civil_War_(2014%E2%80%93present)#Requested_move_6_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Yemeni Civil War (2014–present)">Talk:Yemeni Civil War (2014–present)#Requested move 6 August 2023</a> – "Civil War" or "civil war"? Result: lowercase "civil war"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Post-it_Note#Requested_move_13_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Post-it Note">Talk:Post-it Note#Requested move 13 August 2023</a> – lowercase "Note"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Tartan_track#Requested_move_11_August_2023" title="Talk:Tartan track">Talk:Tartan track#Requested move 11 August 2023</a> – uppercase "track"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Baja_California_Desert#Requested_move_16_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Baja California Desert">Talk:Baja California Desert#Requested move 16 August 2023</a> – lowercase desert? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Spaghetti_Western_films#Requested_move_24_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Spaghetti Western films">Talk:List of Spaghetti Western films#Requested move 24 July 2023</a> – lowercase spaghetti? Result: Yes (despite the uppercase Western).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Triple_j#Requested_move_16_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Triple j">Talk:triple j#Requested move 16 August 2023</a> (and related articles) – uppercase as "Triple J" or use all-lowercase "triple j"? Result: Uppercase as a proper name.</li> <li>(25+ titles) <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_High_Commissioners_of_the_Faroe_Islands#Requested_move_13_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of High Commissioners of the Faroe Islands">Talk:List of High Commissioners of the Faroe Islands#Requested move 13 August 2023</a> – lowercase "High Commissioners"? Result: Lowercase. <ul><li>(6 titles) <a href="/wiki/Talk:High_Commissioners_for_Palestine_and_Transjordan#Requested_move_21_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:High Commissioners for Palestine and Transjordan">Talk:High Commissioners for Palestine and Transjordan#Requested move 21 August 2023</a> – lowercase "High Commissioners"? Result: Lowercase.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_183#RfC_on_MOS:SECTIONCAPS_after_a_colon" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 183">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC on MOS:SECTIONCAPS after a colon</a>: capitalisation after a colon in section headings. – Expired/archived without clear consensus; no change made.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Welsh_Revolt#Requested_move_30_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Welsh Revolt">Talk:Welsh Revolt#Requested move 30 July 2023</a> – Initially Welsh Revolt → Glyndŵr Rebellion but subsequently a question of capitalising the second word in any choice. Result: Lowercase "rebellion".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1991%E2%80%931992_South_Ossetia_War#Requested_move_22_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1991–1992 South Ossetia War">Talk:1991–1992 South Ossetia War#Requested move 22 July 2023</a> – initially <a href="/wiki/1991%E2%80%931992_South_Ossetia_War" class="mw-redirect" title="1991–1992 South Ossetia War">1991–1992 South Ossetia War</a> → but alternative also affects capitalisation of war. Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Kyrgyz_Revolution_of_2010#Requested_move_27_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Kyrgyz Revolution of 2010">Talk:Kyrgyz Revolution of 2010#Requested move 27 July 2023</a> – initially to remove year qualifier but subsequently, capitalisation of revolution? There are other Kyrgyz revolutions too. Result: Capitalization question deferred.</li> <li>Double: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Suseo_Station#Requested_move_11_July_2023" title="Talk:Suseo Station">Talk:Suseo Station#Requested move 11 July 2023</a> and <a href="/wiki/Talk:Suwon_Station#Requested_move_11_July_2023" title="Talk:Suwon Station">Talk:Suwon Station#Requested move 11 July 2023</a> – lowercase station like the others? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Intel_System_Development_Kit#Requested_move_23_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Intel System Development Kit">Talk:Intel System Development Kit#Requested move 23 July 2023</a> – revert to lowercase <a href="/wiki/Intel_system_development_kit" title="Intel system development kit">Intel system development kit</a>? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Taiwanese_Indigenous_peoples#Requested_move_9_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Taiwanese Indigenous peoples">Talk:Taiwanese Indigenous peoples#Requested move 9 August 2023</a> – lowercase indigenous? Result: Lowercase (possibly later moving the words around to make the title start with "Indigenous").</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Take_a_Daytrip#Requested_move_2_August_2023" title="Talk:Take a Daytrip">Talk:Take a Daytrip#Requested move 2 August 2023</a> – capitalize the word "a"? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_organizations_historically_described_as_Communist_fronts_by_the_United_States_federal_government#Requested_move_9_August_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of organizations historically described as Communist fronts by the United States federal government">Talk:List of organizations historically described as Communist fronts by the United States federal government#Requested move 9 August 2023</a> – lowercase Communist? Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Chernobyl_exclusion_zone#Requested_move_2_August_2023" title="Talk:Chernobyl exclusion zone">Talk:Chernobyl exclusion zone#Requested move 2 August 2023</a> – apply sentence case? Result: yes.</li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:2011_Syrian_Revolution&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:2011 Syrian Revolution (page does not exist)">Talk:2011 Syrian Revolution#Requested move 19 July 2023</a> – initially to remove year qualifier but subsequently, capitalisation of revolution? Result: Lowercase</li> <li>Multi: <a href="/wiki/Talk:2018_Major_League_Rugby_Final#Requested_move_12_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2018 Major League Rugby Final">Talk:2018 Major League Rugby Final#Requested move 12 July 2023</a> – lowercase final? Result: lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1967_Alpine_Skiing_World_Cup_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_Downhill#Requested_move_6_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1967 Alpine Skiing World Cup – Men's Downhill">Talk:1967 Alpine Skiing World Cup – Men's Downhill#Requested move 6 July 2023</a> – Downcase a bunch of Downhill, Slalom, etc.? Result: lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:PREDICT_(USAID)#Requested_move_8_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:PREDICT (USAID)">Talk:PREDICT (USAID)#Requested move 8 July 2023</a> – Change "PREDICT (USAID)" to either "PREDICT" or "Predict (USAID)"? Result: Drop the all-caps → "Predict (USAID)"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:YouTube_poop#Requested_move_13_July_2023" title="Talk:YouTube poop">Talk:YouTube poop#Requested move 13 July 2023</a> – uppercase poop? Result: Not moved; left lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Syrian_civil_war#Requested_move_17_July_2023" title="Talk:Syrian civil war">Talk:Syrian civil war#Requested move 17 July 2023</a> – reverse the earlier decision that this isn't a proper name? Result: Not moved; left lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Cheongnyangni_station#Requested_move_11_July_2023" title="Talk:Cheongnyangni station">Talk:Cheongnyangni station#Requested move 11 July 2023</a> – another "[s|S]tation" case; is this one somehow different? Result: Not moved from lowercase</li> <li>Multi: <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Western_subgenres#Requested_move_12_July_2023" title="Talk:List of Western subgenres">Talk:List of Western subgenres#Requested move 12 July 2023</a> – lowercase western for genres of music, writing, film, TV, etc? Result: Not moved; left mostly capped Western</li> <li>Multi: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Festive_amazon#Requested_move_16_July_2023" title="Talk:Festive amazon">Talk:Festive amazon#Requested move 16 July 2023</a> – Uppercase "amazon"? Result: Not moved; left lowercase amazon</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Suppressive_Person#Requested_move_16_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Suppressive Person">Talk:Suppressive Person#Requested move 16 July 2023</a> – not a proper name? Result: Moved; lowercase person (and suppressive in sentence, and other scientology lingo)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Scottish_Games_in_North_Carolina#Requested_move_11_July_2023" title="Talk:Scottish Games in North Carolina">Talk:Scottish Games in North Carolina#Requested move 11 July 2023</a> – lowercase games? Result: Actually moved to <a href="/wiki/Grandfather_Mountain_Highland_Games" title="Grandfather Mountain Highland Games">Grandfather Mountain Highland Games</a> because almost all the content is about that specific event.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Twenty20_International#Requested_move_5_July_2023" title="Talk:Twenty20 International">Talk:Twenty20 International#Requested move 5 July 2023</a> – Lowercase international? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Colecci%C3%B3n_SOLO#Requested_move_7_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Colección SOLO">Talk:Colección SOLO#Requested move 7 July 2023</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:XLINK_(ISP)#Requested_move_1_July_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:XLINK (ISP)">Talk:XLINK (ISP)#Requested move 1 July 2023</a> – Change "<a href="/wiki/HIVE_(ISP)" class="mw-redirect" title="HIVE (ISP)">HIVE (ISP)</a>" to "<a href="/wiki/Hive_(Internet_service_provider)" title="Hive (Internet service provider)">Hive (Internet service provider)</a>"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis#Tournament_column_of_2023_ATP_Tour_etc.:_Grass_or_grass,_Hard_or_hard,_Clay_or_clay?" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis">WT:WikiProject Tennis#Tournament column of 2023 ATP Tour etc.: Grass or grass, Hard or hard, Clay or clay?</a> – cap after dash? – Mooted by putting surface first so it can be capped.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Bulava_of_the_President_of_Ukraine#Requested_move_30_June_2023" title="Talk:Bulava of the President of Ukraine">Talk:Bulava of the President of Ukraine#Requested move 30 June 2023</a> – Lowercase 'President'? (two articles) Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pennant_of_the_President_of_the_Republic_of_Poland#Requested_move_30_June_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Pennant of the President of the Republic of Poland">Talk:Pennant of the President of the Republic of Poland#Requested move 30 June 2023</a> – Lowercase 'President'? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Shaolin_Kung_Fu#Requested_move_29_June_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Shaolin Kung Fu">Talk:Shaolin Kung Fu#Requested move 29 June 2023</a> – Sentence case? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Major_Command#Requested_move_28_June_2023" title="Talk:Major Command">Talk:Major Command#Requested move 28 June 2023</a> – Lowercase "Command"? Result: Merge content into another article instead.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Joint_Support_Ship#Requested_move_28_June_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Joint Support Ship">Talk:Joint Support Ship#Requested move 28 June 2023</a> – Sentence case? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Tai_chi_chih#Requested_move_29_June_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Tai chi chih">Talk:Tai chi chih#Requested move 29 June 2023</a> – Title case? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hark!_The_Herald_Angels_Sing#Requested_move_22_June_2023" title="Talk:Hark! The Herald Angels Sing">Talk:Hark! The Herald Angels Sing#Requested move 22 June 2023</a> – Sentence case supported by <a href="/wiki/MOS:INCIPIT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INCIPIT">MOS:INCIPIT</a>? (four articles) Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:AS_Long_As_Possible_(ASLAP)#Requested_move_21_June_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:AS Long As Possible (ASLAP)">Talk:AS Long As Possible (ASLAP)#Requested move 21 June 2023</a> – What letters should be capitalized in the title after removing the abbreviation from it? Result: Moved to "As Long as Possible"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Tai_chi#Requested_move_13_June_2023" title="Talk:Tai chi">Talk:Tai chi#Requested move 13 June 2023</a> – Uppercase "chi"? (among other possibilities) Result: Lowercase retained (not moved).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Action_at_Springfield#Requested_move_12_June_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Action at Springfield">Talk:Action at Springfield#Requested move 12 June 2023</a> – "First Battle at Springfield" or "First battle at Springfield"? Result: Capitalization question deferred; in the meantime it is moved to "Battle".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Awaga-jinja" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Awaga-jinja">Talk:Awaga-jinja</a> – <a href="/wiki/Awaga_Shrine" title="Awaga Shrine">Awaga Shrine</a> or <a href="/w/index.php?title=Awaga_shrine&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Awaga shrine (page does not exist)">Awaga shrine</a>? Result: Uppercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:German_Expressionism#Requested_move_5_June_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:German Expressionism">Talk:German Expressionism#Requested move 5 June 2023</a> – Lowercase "Expressionism" to "expressionist cinema"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Army_training_regiment#Requested_move_4_June_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Army training regiment">Talk:Army training regiment#Requested move 4 June 2023</a> – Change to title case? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Certified_Emission_Reduction#Requested_move_31_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Certified Emission Reduction">Talk:Certified Emission Reduction#Requested move 31 May 2023</a> – Sentence case for this and <a href="/wiki/Emission_Reduction_Unit" class="mw-redirect" title="Emission Reduction Unit">Emission Reduction Unit</a>? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Certified_Arborist#Requested_move_21_May_2023" title="Talk:Certified Arborist">Talk:Certified Arborist#Requested move 21 May 2023</a> – Lowercase 25 occupation-related certifications? Result: No consensus <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TRAINWRECK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TRAINWRECK">WP:TRAINWRECK</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Registered_Battlefields_(UK)#Requested_move_31_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Registered Battlefields (UK)">Talk:Registered Battlefields (UK)#Requested move 31 May 2023</a> – Change to sentence case? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Three_Judges_Cases#Requested_move_23_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Three Judges Cases">Talk:Three Judges Cases#Requested move 23 May 2023</a> – Should this be <a href="/wiki/Collegium_system" title="Collegium system">Collegium system</a>? What words should be capped? Result: <a href="/wiki/Collegium_system" title="Collegium system">Collegium system</a> (lowercase 's')</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Black_Bottom_(dance)#Requested_move_24_May_2023" title="Talk:Black Bottom (dance)">Talk:Black Bottom (dance)#Requested move 24 May 2023</a> – Lowercase "Bottom"? Result: No, since it was named after a place.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:PAIS_Alliance#Requested_move_26_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:PAIS Alliance">Talk:PAIS Alliance#Requested move 26 May 2023</a> – Should this be "<a href="/w/index.php?title=MOVER_(political_party)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MOVER (political party) (page does not exist)">MOVER (political party)</a>"? Or perhaps "<a href="/wiki/Mover_(political_party)" title="Mover (political party)">Mover (political party)</a>"? Result: Not all-caps.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ice_Hockey#RfC:_NHL_round_names_capitalization" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey">WT:WikiProject Ice Hockey#RfC: NHL round names capitalization</a> RFC on capitalization of "Preliminary Round" and "First Round" and such in hockey, to resolve recent disagreements. Result: Lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Drag_Panic#Drag_Panic_%E2%86%92_Drag_panic" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Drag Panic">Talk:Drag Panic#Drag Panic → Drag panic</a> (23 May 2023) – Lowercase "Panic"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hear_my_prayer#Requested_move_25_May_2023" title="Talk:Hear my prayer">Talk:Hear my prayer#Requested move 25 May 2023</a> – Should this use <a href="/wiki/Title_case" title="Title case">title case</a>? Result: No, per <a href="/wiki/MOS:INCIPIT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INCIPIT">MOS:INCIPIT</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Seal_of_the_President_of_the_United_States#Requested_move_18_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Seal of the President of the United States">Talk:Seal of the President of the United States#Requested move 18 May 2023</a> – lowercase "president"? Result: Yes, and in most similar cases.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Flag_of_the_President_of_Ukraine#Requested_move_18_May_2023" title="Talk:Flag of the President of Ukraine">Talk:Flag of the President of Ukraine#Requested move 18 May 2023</a> – lowercase "president"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Baseball/Archive_49#MLB_Draft_or_draft?" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 49">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 49#MLB Draft or draft?</a> – Is "Draft" part of a proper name? – concluded lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Certified_AM_Directional_Specialist#Requested_move_21_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Certified AM Directional Specialist">Talk:Certified AM Directional Specialist#Requested move 21 May 2023</a> – Lowercase 26 technology certifications? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Certified_Anesthesia_Technician#Requested_move_15_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Certified Anesthesia Technician">Talk:Certified Anesthesia Technician#Requested move 15 May 2023</a> – Lowercase 14 healthcare certifications? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Soviet_Empire#Requested_move_11_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Soviet Empire">Talk:Soviet Empire#Requested move 11 May 2023</a> – Lowercase for "Empire"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2002_Davis_Cup_World_Group_Qualifying_Round#Requested_move_7_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2002 Davis Cup World Group Qualifying Round">Talk:2002 Davis Cup World Group Qualifying Round#Requested move 7 May 2023</a> – Multi; lowercase "Qualifying Round" and "Play-offs"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Flag_of_the_President_of_the_United_States#Requested_move_9_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Flag of the President of the United States">Talk:Flag of the President of the United States#Requested move 9 May 2023</a> – Lowercase for "the President"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Applied_Science_Technology_and_Engineering_Technology_in_Canada#Requested_move_6_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Applied Science Technology and Engineering Technology in Canada">Talk:Applied Science Technology and Engineering Technology in Canada#Requested move 6 May 2023</a> – Lowercase various job titles and certifications of Canada? (a multipage request) Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Registered_Cardiovascular_Invasive_Specialist#Requested_move_6_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Registered Cardiovascular Invasive Specialist">Talk:Registered Cardiovascular Invasive Specialist#Requested move 6 May 2023</a> – Lowercase this job title / certification in the United States? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Kerry_Babies_case#Requested_move_5_May_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Kerry Babies case">Talk:Kerry Babies case#Requested move 5 May 2023</a> – Lowercase "Babies"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2024_NFL_Draft#Requested_move_27_April_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2024 NFL Draft">Talk:2024 NFL Draft#Requested move 27 April 2023</a> – Lowercase "Draft"? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Football_League/Archive_22#Capitalization_of_NFL_Draft" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 22">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 22#Capitalization of NFL Draft</a> – Is it time for the long-deferred RM discussion to fix this? "Result": It took place; no consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:ONE_Championship#Requested_move_17_April_2023" title="Talk:ONE Championship">Talk:ONE Championship#Requested move 17 April 2023</a> – Change "ONE" from all-caps to "One"? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Afghanistan_conflict_(1978%E2%80%93present)" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Afghanistan conflict (1978–present)">Talk:Afghanistan conflict (1978–present)</a> – Uppercase 'C' in "conflict"? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Apple_Campus#Requested_move_21_April_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Apple Campus">Talk:Apple Campus#Requested move 21 April 2023</a> – Lowercase the second word? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Sujatha_baliga#Requested_move_11_April_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Sujatha baliga">Talk:sujatha baliga#Requested move 11 April 2023</a> – Change from all-lowercase to conventional formatting for this person's name? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ling_tosite_Sigure#Requested_move_19_April_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ling tosite Sigure">Talk:Ling tosite Sigure#Requested move 19 April 2023</a> – Uppercase the middle word in this band's name? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Fair_Game_(Scientology)#Requested_move_6_April_2023" title="Talk:Fair Game (Scientology)">Talk:Fair Game (Scientology)#Requested move 6 April 2023</a> – Lowercase "Game"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Modern_paganism#Requested_move_24_March_2023" title="Talk:Modern paganism">Talk:Modern paganism#Requested move 24 March 2023</a> – "Modern paganism" → "Neo-Paganism" (uppercase 'P')? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ken_Carson_(entertainer)" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ken Carson (entertainer)">Talk:Ken Carson (entertainer)</a> – If this is changed to <a href="/w/index.php?title=Ken_Carson_(western_music_singer)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Ken Carson (western music singer) (page does not exist)">Ken Carson (western music singer)</a>, should "western" be capitalized as it is in the <a href="/wiki/Western_music_(North_America)" title="Western music (North America)">Western music (North America)</a> article? Result: Lowercase disambiguation "(country singer)" selected.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Korean_wave#Requested_move_2_March_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Korean wave">Talk:Korean wave#Requested move 2 March 2023</a> – Capitalize as "Korean Wave"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:David_Gilliland_Racing#Requested_move_16_March_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:David Gilliland Racing">Talk:David Gilliland Racing#Requested move 16 March 2023</a> – New name styled as "Tricon" (three icons) or all-caps "TRICON"? Result: Tricon</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Willow_project#Requested_move_16_March_2023" title="Talk:Willow project">Talk:Willow project#Requested move 16 March 2023</a> – Change "project" to "Project"? Result: No, withdrawn by nominator.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ugly_(Slowthai_album)#Requested_move_5_March_2023" title="Talk:Ugly (Slowthai album)">Talk:Ugly (Slowthai album)#Requested move 5 March 2023</a> – Use all-caps "UGLY"? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:SAviOr#Requested_move_28_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:SAviOr">Talk:SAviOr#Requested move 28 February 2023</a> – Remove the caps-lowercase mixture? Result: Yes, just make it "Savior (gamer)"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Suisse_secrets#Requested_move_27_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Suisse secrets">Talk:Suisse secrets#Requested move 27 February 2023</a> – Uppercase "secrets"? Result: Yes! This particular group of secrets is nearly always capped in sources (The Guardian notwithstanding).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Year_of_Three_Prime_Ministers#Requested_move_26_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Year of Three Prime Ministers">Talk:Year of Three Prime Ministers#Requested move 26 February 2023</a> – Change to sentence case? Result: Yes (may have implications for other articles such as <a href="/wiki/Year_of_the_Three_Kings" title="Year of the Three Kings">Year of the Three Kings</a>).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NHL_Conference_Finals#Requested_move_25_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NHL Conference Finals">Talk:NHL Conference Finals#Requested move 25 February 2023</a> – Yet another sports capping issue (collective term for the <a href="/wiki/Western_Conference_(NHL)" title="Western Conference (NHL)">Western Conference (NHL)</a> and the <a href="/wiki/Eastern_Conference_(NHL)" title="Eastern Conference (NHL)">Eastern Conference (NHL)</a> finals) – Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hierarchical_File_System#Requested_move_25_February_2023" title="Talk:Hierarchical File System">Talk:Hierarchical File System#Requested move 25 February 2023</a> – Are the capital letters sufficient to indicate that this article is about a deprecated Apple-specific format? Result: No. Disambiguate.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Cocaine_Bear_(bear)#Requested_move_24_February_2023" title="Talk:Cocaine Bear (bear)">Talk:Cocaine Bear (bear)#Requested move 24 February 2023</a> – Lowercase the first "Bear" for the article about the bear? Uppercase to disambiguate the film? Result: Not moved, remains uppercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Bigbang_(Norwegian_band)#Requested_move_16_February_2023" title="Talk:Bigbang (Norwegian band)">Talk:Bigbang (Norwegian band)#Requested move 16 February 2023</a> – Change "Bigbang" to "BigBang"? Result: No. RM withdrawn after discussion of sources.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Moura_Massacre#Requested_move_17_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Moura Massacre">Talk:Moura Massacre#Requested move 17 February 2023</a> – Lowercasing of "Massacre"? Result: Yes, lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pinot_gris#Requested_move_16_February_2023" title="Talk:Pinot gris">Talk:Pinot gris#Requested move 16 February 2023</a> – Uppercase "gris"? Result: No, consistent with recent RM for <a href="/wiki/Pinot_noir" title="Pinot noir">Pinot noir</a>.</li> <li>Articles about particular types of ministries – Use sentence case? Result: Yes, sentence case for all. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ministry_of_Justice#Requested_move_17_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ministry of Justice">Talk:Ministry of Justice#Requested move 17 February 2023</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ministry_of_Finance#Requested_move_17_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ministry of Finance">Talk:Ministry of Finance#Requested move 17 February 2023</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ministry_of_Foreign_Affairs#Requested_move_16_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ministry of Foreign Affairs">Talk:Ministry of Foreign Affairs#Requested move 16 February 2023</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ministry_of_Religious_Affairs#Requested_move_16_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ministry of Religious Affairs">Talk:Ministry of Religious Affairs#Requested move 16 February 2023</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Probe_Incorporation_Mediated_by_Enzymes#Requested_move_14_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Probe Incorporation Mediated by Enzymes">Talk:Probe Incorporation Mediated by Enzymes#Requested move 14 February 2023</a> – Use sentence case (or an acronym) for the name of this method? Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/PRIME_(labeling_technique)" title="PRIME (labeling technique)">PRIME (labeling technique)</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Peco#Requested_move_13_February_2023" title="Talk:Peco">Talk:Peco#Requested move 13 February 2023</a> – Use all-caps like the company seems to do? Result: Use sentence case since it's not an acronym.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:JURIST#Requested_move_21_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:JURIST">Talk:JURIST#Requested move 21 February 2023</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Africa#RfC:_Name_of_the_small_country_nestled_within_Senegal" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Africa">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Africa#RfC: Name of the small country nestled within Senegal</a> – Whether to prepend "the" and whether to capitalize as "The" ? Result: No consensus</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/China-_and_Chinese-related_articles#Capitalization_of_romanized_titles" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles">WT:Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles#Capitalization of romanized titles</a> – Title case for pinyin titles? Result: Sentence case when inconsistent in the sources. Title case when consistently capitalized.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Modern_paganism#Edit_to_lead" title="Talk:Modern paganism">Talk:Modern paganism#Edit to lead</a> – Related to recent RM and decision to lowercase <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Modern_paganism#RfC" title="Talk:Modern paganism">Talk:Modern paganism#RfC</a> Result: Consensus against uppercase mention.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Cameroon_line#Requested_move_8_February_2023" title="Talk:Cameroon line">Talk:Cameroon line#Requested move 8 February 2023</a> – Change "line" to "Line"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hunter%27s_chicken#Requested_move_8_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hunter's chicken">Talk:Hunter's chicken#Requested move 8 February 2023</a> – Change "Hunter's chicken" to "Chicken Chasseur" with a capital 'C'? (not the main focus of the discussion) Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mini%E2%80%93Mental_State_Examination#Requested_move_14_January_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Mini–Mental State Examination">Talk:Mini–Mental State Examination#Requested move 14 January 2023</a> – Change to <a href="/wiki/Sentence_case" class="mw-redirect" title="Sentence case">sentence case</a>? Result: Sentence case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Jaw_harp#Requested_move_5_February_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Jaw harp">Talk:Jaw harp#Requested move 5 February 2023</a> – Change "harp" to "Harp"? (not the main focus of the discussion) Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pret_a_Manger#Requested_move_3_February_2023" title="Talk:Pret a Manger">Talk:Pret a Manger#Requested move 3 February 2023</a> – Uppercase the "a", as "Pret A Manger"? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Brescia_Casket#Requested_move_26_January_2023" title="Talk:Brescia Casket">Talk:Brescia Casket#Requested move 26 January 2023</a> – lowercase "casket" for five articles about particular caskets? Result: No (differing from Bimaran RM just below)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Bimaran_casket#Requested_move_8_January_2023" title="Talk:Bimaran casket">Talk:Bimaran casket#Requested move 8 January 2023</a> – uppercase "casket" for two articles for consistency with other article titles about particular caskets? Result: No consensus</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pinot_noir#Requested_move_31_January_2023" title="Talk:Pinot noir">Talk:Pinot noir#Requested move 31 January 2023</a> – Change to <a href="/wiki/Pinot_Noir" class="mw-redirect" title="Pinot Noir">Pinot Noir</a>? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Clinton_Body_Count#Requested_move_31_January_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Clinton Body Count">Talk:Clinton Body Count#Requested move 31 January 2023</a> – lowercase for "Body" and "Count"? (not the main focus of the discussion) Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Barrie_Phillip_Nichol#Requested_move_26_January_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Barrie Phillip Nichol">Talk:Barrie Phillip Nichol#Requested move 26 January 2023</a> – Change to <a href="/wiki/BpNichol" title="BpNichol">bpNichol</a>? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ive_(group)#Requested_move_14_January_2023" title="Talk:Ive (group)">Talk:Ive (group)#Requested move 14 January 2023</a> – Move to all-caps? Result: No all-caps.</li> <li>Final/final: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:AFL_Grand_Final#Requested_move_11_January_2023" title="Talk:AFL Grand Final">Talk:AFL Grand Final#Requested move 11 January 2023</a> – 307 articles "* Grand Final" → "* grand final"? Result: No consensus (differing from VFL RM just below).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1872_FA_Cup_Final#Requested_move_5_January_2023" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1872 FA Cup Final">Talk:1872 FA Cup Final#Requested move 5 January 2023</a> – lowercase "final" as per other recent examples? Result: lowercase.</li></ul></li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256386598"> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center;"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">2022</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1902_VFL_Grand_Final#Requested_move_25_December_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1902 VFL Grand Final">Talk:1902 VFL Grand Final#Requested move 25 December 2022</a> – lowercase "grand final" on about 91 of these? Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1930_FIFA_World_Cup_Final#Requested_move_12_December_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1930 FIFA World Cup Final">Talk:1930 FIFA World Cup Final#Requested move 12 December 2022</a> – Lowercase "Final" for 21 year-specific articles? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:UEFA_Women%27s_Euro_1995_final#Requested_move_19_November_2022" title="Talk:UEFA Women's Euro 1995 final">Talk:UEFA Women's Euro 1995 final#Requested move 19 November 2022</a> – Possible bellwether for future moves of football articles that capitalise "final". Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Powdr_Corporation#Requested_move_24_December_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Powdr Corporation">Talk:Powdr Corporation#Requested move 24 December 2022</a> – Use all-caps as "POWDR" per "brand guidelines"? Result: No, moved to <a href="/wiki/Powdr" title="Powdr">Powdr</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Tequila_sunrise_(cocktail)#Requested_move_15_December_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Tequila sunrise (cocktail)">Talk:Tequila sunrise (cocktail)#Requested move 15 December 2022</a> – Is the lowercase 's' a factor in whether this topic is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PRIMARYTOPIC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PRIMARYTOPIC">primary</a>? Result: Moved to <a href="/wiki/Tequila_sunrise" title="Tequila sunrise">Tequila sunrise</a> as the primary topic for the term.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:First_Ladies_and_Gentlemen_of_Kansas#Requested_move_13_December_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:First Ladies and Gentlemen of Kansas">Talk:First Ladies and Gentlemen of Kansas#Requested move 13 December 2022</a> – Lowercase 42 plurals of "First Ladies ... of XYZ"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Day_of_reckoning#Requested_move_18_November_2022" title="Talk:Day of reckoning">Talk:Day of reckoning#Requested move 18 November 2022</a> – Uppercase "reckoning" for this disambiguation page? Result: No consensus, so no change.</li> <li>Derbies and rivalries: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Hell_is_Real_Derby" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hell is Real Derby">Talk:Hell is Real Derby</a> (moved to <a href="/wiki/Hell_is_Real_derby" class="mw-redirect" title="Hell is Real derby">Hell is Real derby</a>), <a href="/wiki/Talk:South_Texas_Derby" title="Talk:South Texas Derby">Talk:South Texas Derby</a> (not moved), <a href="/wiki/Talk:Black_Gold_Derby" title="Talk:Black Gold Derby">Talk:Black Gold Derby</a> (not moved), <a href="/wiki/Talk:Texas_Derby" title="Talk:Texas Derby">Talk:Texas Derby</a> (moved to <a href="/wiki/Texas_derby" class="mw-redirect" title="Texas derby">Texas derby</a>), <a href="/wiki/Talk:Hudson_River_Derby" title="Talk:Hudson River Derby">Talk:Hudson River Derby</a> (not moved), <a href="/wiki/Talk:905_Derby" title="Talk:905 Derby">Talk:905 Derby</a> (not moved), <a href="/wiki/Talk:Mountain_State_Derby" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Mountain State Derby">Talk:Mountain State Derby</a> (moved to <a href="/wiki/Mountain_State_derby" title="Mountain State derby">Mountain State derby</a>), <a href="/wiki/Talk:Blue%E2%80%93Green_Rivalry" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Blue–Green Rivalry">Talk:Blue–Green Rivalry</a> (moved to <a href="/wiki/Blue%E2%80%93Green_rivalry" title="Blue–Green rivalry">Blue–Green rivalry</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Biennial_flight_review#Requested_move_25_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Biennial flight review">Talk:Biennial flight review#‎Requested move 25 November 2022</a> – Uppercase "Review"? Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2020_Big_12_Conference_Softball_Tournament#Requested_move_2_December_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2020 Big 12 Conference Softball Tournament">Talk:2020 Big 12 Conference Softball Tournament#Requested move 2 December 2022</a> – More tournament downcasing; somehow missed softball in earlier rounds. Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2000_NCAA_Division_III_Baseball_Tournament#Requested_move_29_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2000 NCAA Division III Baseball Tournament">Talk:2000 NCAA Division III Baseball Tournament#Requested move 29 November 2022</a> – More baseball tournament downcasings for TolBot to execute. Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Public_Access#Requested_move_18_November_2022" title="Talk:Public Access">Talk:Public Access#Requested move 18 November 2022</a> – Does the capital letter distinguish this adequately from various "public access" topics? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Haim_(band)#Requested_move_4_December_2022" title="Talk:Haim (band)">Talk:Haim (band)#Requested move 4 December 2022</a> – All-caps? Result: Not all-caps.</li> <li>Caps for cocktails: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Black_Velvet_(beer_cocktail)#Requested_move_14_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Black Velvet (beer cocktail)">Talk:Black Velvet (beer cocktail)#Requested move 14 November 2022</a> – Lowercase all but the first word in three cocktail article titles? Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_cocktails#Requested_move_23_November_2022" title="Talk:List of cocktails">Talk:List of cocktails#Requested move 23 November 2022</a> – Five more cocktail article titles – Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Bee%27s_Knees#Requested_move_30_November_2022" title="Talk:Bee's Knees">Talk:Bee's Knees#Requested move 30 November 2022</a> – Lowercase the "Knees" in this cocktail name? Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hanky-Panky_cocktail#Requested_move_1_December_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hanky-Panky cocktail">Talk:Hanky-Panky cocktail#Requested move 1 December 2022</a> – Lowercase the "Panky" in this cocktail name? Result: lowercase.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Skeleton_Crew" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Skeleton Crew">Talk:Skeleton Crew</a> – Is the capitalization of "Crew" sufficient for disambiguation of this short story collection? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:OAD_(Caste)#Requested_move_26_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:OAD (Caste)">Talk:OAD (Caste)#Requested move 26 November 2022</a> – Is all-caps appropriate? Result: Procedurally closed. <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=OAD_(Caste)&redirect=no">OAD (Caste)</a> and <a href="/w/index.php?title=OAD_(caste)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="OAD (caste) (page does not exist)">OAD (caste)</a> were redirected to <a href="/wiki/Orh" title="Orh">Orh</a>. The discussion record is at <a href="/wiki/Talk:OAD##Requested_move_26_November_2022" title="Talk:OAD">Talk:OAD##Requested move 26 November 2022</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Passionist_nuns#Requested_move_16_November_2022" title="Talk:Passionist nuns">Talk:Passionist nuns#Requested move 16 November 2022</a> – Uppercase "nuns"? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ice_Hockey/Archive80#Lower_casing_of_First_team_&_Second_team_All_stars." title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive80">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive80#Lower casing of First team & Second team All stars.</a> – Follow NHL's capitalization style, or WP's? – Was there a conclusion reached before that was archived? No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:4_Da_Gang#Requested_move_26_October_2022" title="Talk:4 Da Gang">Talk:4 Da Gang#Requested move 26 October 2022</a> – Mid-phrase capitalization of the definite article (alternative spelling)? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Xx_(album)#Requested_move_16_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Xx (album)">Talk:xx (album)#Requested move 16 November 2022</a> – Does the lowercase distinguish this adequately from various "XX" albums? Result: No, so further disambiguate the name.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:David_Gilliland_Racing#Requested_move_22_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:David Gilliland Racing">Talk:David Gilliland Racing#Requested move 22 November 2022</a> – Should this become "TRICON Garage" with all-caps in "TRICON"? Result: Not moved.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Swabian_Sp%C3%A4tzle#Requested_move_13_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Swabian Spätzle">Talk:Swabian Spätzle#Requested move 13 November 2022</a> – Lowercase "Spätzle"? Result: Yes (and change the spelling to "spaetzle").</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Marcher_Lord#Requested_move_19_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Marcher Lord">Talk:Marcher Lord#Requested move 19 November 2022</a> – Lowercase "Lord"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:ATOM_(IFV)#Requested_move_14_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:ATOM (IFV)">Talk:ATOM (IFV)#Requested move 14 November 2022</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:So_into_You_(Tamia_song)#Requested_move_1_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:So into You (Tamia song)">Talk:So into You (Tamia song)#Requested move 1 November 2022</a> – Capitalize "into"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Chief_mechanical_engineer#Requested_move_9_November_2022" title="Talk:Chief mechanical engineer">Talk:Chief mechanical engineer#Requested move 9 November 2022</a> – Uppercase "mechanical" and "engineer"? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Investiture_of_the_prince_of_Wales#Requested_move_6_November_2022" title="Talk:Investiture of the prince of Wales">Talk:Investiture of the prince of Wales#Requested move 6 November 2022</a> – Uppercase "prince"? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:SMART_(advertising_agency)#Requested_move_12_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:SMART (advertising agency)">Talk:SMART (advertising agency)#Requested move 12 November 2022</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:LiSA_(Japanese_musician,_born_1987)#Requested_move_11_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:LiSA (Japanese musician, born 1987)">Talk:LiSA (Japanese musician, born 1987)#Requested move 11 November 2022</a> – Change "LiSA" to "Lisa"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:N.EX.T#Requested_move_24_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:N.EX.T">Talk:N.EX.T#Requested move 24 October 2022</a> – Simply format as the mixed-case word "Next" with diambiguation – e.g. "<a href="/wiki/Next_(Korean_band)" class="mw-redirect" title="Next (Korean band)">Next (Korean band)</a>"? Result: Moved to <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NEXT_(Korean_band)&redirect=no">NEXT (Korean band)</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Great_baths&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:Great baths (page does not exist)">Talk:Great baths#Requested move 14 November 2022</a> – Uppercase "baths"? Result: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Great_baths" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Great baths">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Great baths</a> discussion resulted in deletion</li> <li>Paganism-related discussions <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Modern_paganism_and_New_Age#Requested_move_3_November_2022" title="Talk:Modern paganism and New Age">Talk:Modern paganism and New Age#Requested move 3 November 2022</a> – Uppercase "pagan" and "paganism"? Several articles proposed to be changed – Result: Not moved, since "<a href="/wiki/Modern_paganism" title="Modern paganism">Modern paganism</a>" ended up in lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Celtic_Reconstructionist_Paganism#Requested_move_28_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism">Talk:Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism#Requested move 28 August 2022</a> – Uppercase only for the first word? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Modern_Paganism#Requested_move_23_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Modern Paganism">Talk:Modern Paganism#Requested move 23 August 2022</a> – Lowercase "Paganism"? Initially closed as lowercase 28 August 2022; relisted 31 October 2022 after a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2022_October#Modern_paganism_(closed)" title="Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2022 October">move review</a>; closed again as lowercase 7 November 2022</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Neopaganism_in_Scandinavia#Requested_move_14_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Neopaganism in Scandinavia">Talk:Neopaganism in Scandinavia#Requested move 14 August 2022</a> – Change "Neopaganism" to "Modern [P/p]aganism"? Result: "Modern paganism" (lowercase)</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Queen_Elizabeth_The_Queen_Mother#Requested_move_27_October_2022" title="Talk:Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother">Talk:Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother#Requested move 27 October 2022</a> – mid-phrase capitalization of the definite article again – Result: No consensus.</li> <li>Should "T/the" be capitalized in "T/the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" ? <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Midsentence_capitalization_of_the" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Midsentence capitalization of the</a> – Capitalize The when referring to [T/t]he <a href="/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints" class="mw-redirect" title="Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints">Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints</a>? Result: No <ul><li>Discussion originally started here: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Latter_Day_Saints#Capitalization_issue" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints">WT:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints#Capitalization issue</a></li> <li>RfC later filed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#RfC_on_mid-sentence_and_mid-article_title_capitalization_of_the_in_the_full_name_of_the_LDS_Church" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#RfC on mid-sentence and mid-article title capitalization of the in the full name of the LDS Church</a> – Result: Lowercase</li></ul></li></ul></li> <li>"Trial" or "trial" <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Auschwitz_trial#Requested_move_3_November_2022" title="Talk:Auschwitz trial">Talk:Auschwitz trial#Requested move 3 November 2022</a> – Uppercase "trial" (four articles) or lowercase "Trial" (twelve articles)? Result: Withdrawn</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Einsatzgruppen_Trial#Requested_move_3_November_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Einsatzgruppen Trial">Talk:Einsatzgruppen Trial#Requested move 3 November 2022</a> – Capitalization of "Trial" for a series of 12 post-WWII trials – Result: Merged into discussion at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Auschwitz_trial#Requested_move_3_November_2022" title="Talk:Auschwitz trial">Talk:Auschwitz trial#Requested move 3 November 2022</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Doctors%27_trial#Requested_move_28_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Doctors' trial">Talk:Doctors' trial#Requested move 28 October 2022</a> – <a href="/wiki/Doctors%27_trial" class="mw-redirect" title="Doctors' trial">Doctors' trial</a> → ? Result: Yes</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Post-it_Note#Requested_move_30_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Post-it Note">Talk:Post-it Note#Requested move 30 October 2022</a> – Move to lowercase "note"? Result: Keep capped.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mid-American_Conference_Baseball_Tournament#Requested_move_23_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Mid-American Conference Baseball Tournament">Talk:Mid-American Conference Baseball Tournament#Requested move 23 October 2022</a> – 700 or so case-fixing sports tournament moves (proposal for a bot) – Result: Lowercase both "Baseball" and "Tournament".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_body_men#Requested_move_29_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of body men">Talk:List of body men#Requested move 29 October 2022</a> – Use uppercase for the role title? Result: Lowercase <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_personal_aides_to_the_president_of_the_United_States&redirect=no">List of personal aides to the president of the United States</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:NEXT_(Chinese_band)#Requested_move_11_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:NEXT (Chinese band)">Talk:NEXT (Chinese band)#Requested move 11 October 2022</a> – Drop the all-caps? Result: Yes, make it "Next (Chinese group)"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Vice-admiral_of_the_red#Requested_move_22_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Vice-admiral of the red">Talk:Vice-admiral of the red#Requested move 22 October 2022</a> (also <a href="/wiki/Vice-admiral_of_the_White" title="Vice-admiral of the White">Vice-admiral of the White</a>) – Uppercase "admiral"? Uppercase "red"? Result: Lowercase "admiral", uppercase "Red".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Harrier_Jump_Jet#Requested_move_18_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Harrier Jump Jet">Talk:Harrier Jump Jet#Requested move 18 October 2022</a> – proper name? Result: No. Lowercase "jump jet" in the title.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Mink_Case#Requested_move_5_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:The Mink Case">Talk:The Mink Case#Requested move 5 October 2022</a> – Should the title use capital letters for the killing of minks in Denmark? Result: Lowercase as <a href="/wiki/2020_Danish_mink_cull" title="2020 Danish mink cull">2020 Danish mink cull</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hokey_Cokey#Requested_move_4_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hokey Cokey">Talk:Hokey Cokey#Requested move 4 October 2022</a> – Lowercase "Cokey" or "Pokey" per <a href="/wiki/MOS:DANCECAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DANCECAPS">MOS:DANCECAPS</a> or uppercase as the name of the song? Result: Uppercase "Pokey".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Working_Definition_of_Antisemitism#Requested_move_16_October_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Working Definition of Antisemitism">Talk:Working Definition of Antisemitism#Requested move 16 October 2022</a> – Identify whose definition and use lowercase? Result: Lowercased.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Wild_Turkey#Requested_move_28_September_2022" title="Talk:Wild Turkey">Talk:Wild Turkey#Requested move 28 September 2022</a> – Does an uppercase 'T' indicate that people are probably looking for the <a href="/wiki/Wild_Turkey_(bourbon)" title="Wild Turkey (bourbon)">bourbon</a> rather than the <a href="/wiki/Wild_turkey" title="Wild turkey">bird</a>? Result: No consensus, so uppercase title disambiguated.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ape_(1976_film)#Requested_move_15_October_2022" title="Talk:Ape (1976 film)">Talk:Ape (1976 film)#Requested move 15 October 2022</a> – Move to all-caps? Result: No</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:In_Search_of...#Requested_move_10_October_2022" title="Talk:In Search of...">Talk:In Search of...#Requested move 10 October 2022</a> – Should the "of..." become "Of..." because it is the last word of the title? (a two-article RM) Result: Retain lowercase since truncation of a longer title is implied.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hidden_Children#Requested_move_29_September_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hidden Children">Talk:Hidden Children#Requested move 29 September 2022</a> – Lowercase "Children"? Result: Yes (and add more words to clarify the topic)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:MasterClass#Requested_move_1_September_2022" title="Talk:MasterClass">Talk:MasterClass#Requested move 1 September 2022</a> – on small details including case and space. Result: No consensus (mostly a disambiguation discussion)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Allegro_Non_Troppo#Requested_move_12_September_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Allegro Non Troppo">Talk:Allegro Non Troppo#Requested move 12 September 2022</a> – Lowercase since it's Italian? Result: No consensus (some ambiguity for the lowercase version, and English-language sources often use title case)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:2022_NCAA_Division_I_Men%27s_Basketball_Championship_Game#Requested_move_22_September_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:2022 NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Championship Game">Talk:2022 NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Championship Game#Requested move 22 September 2022</a> – Follow up on basketball stragglers, versus go back to capitalizing "Men's Basketball Tournament" and such – clear consensus to lowercase a bunch of articles and templates.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States_Naval_Aviator#Requested_move_22_September_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:United States Naval Aviator">Talk:United States Naval Aviator#Requested move 22 September 2022</a> – to <a href="/wiki/Naval_aviator_(United_States)" title="Naval aviator (United States)">Naval aviator (United States)</a>? Result: Lowercased as "Naval aviator (United States)"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:UP_Fighting_Maroons_Volleyball_Team#Requested_move_25_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:UP Fighting Maroons Volleyball Team">Talk:UP Fighting Maroons Volleyball Team#Requested move 25 August 2022</a> – Change "Volleyball Team" to "volleyball"? Yes, moved to lowercase, no team.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Division_Series#Requested_move_11_September_2022" title="Talk:Division Series">Talk:Division Series#Requested move 11 September 2022</a> – Proper-name question for "Division Series" and "League Championship Series". Result: Uppercase retained</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Major_League_Baseball_Wild_Card_Game#Requested_move_2_September_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Major League Baseball Wild Card Game">Talk:Major League Baseball Wild Card Game#Requested move 2 September 2022</a> – Case among other issues. Result: "Game" changed to "Series" (at least for now) <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Baseball/Archive_48#Wild_Card_(Game/Series)_or_wild_card_(game/series)" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 48">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 48#Wild Card (Game/Series) or wild card (game/series)</a> – Discussion related to the above RM</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Australian_Aboriginal_elder#Requested_move_25_August_2022" title="Talk:Australian Aboriginal elder">Talk:Australian Aboriginal elder#Requested move 25 August 2022</a> – Capitalize "elder"? Result: Lowercase (at least for now)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Lorraine_cycle#Requested_move_13_August_2022" title="Talk:Lorraine cycle">Talk:Lorraine cycle#Requested move 13 August 2022</a> – Uppercase "cycle"? Result: Lowercase <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Crusade_Cycle#Requested_move_30_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Crusade Cycle">Talk:Crusade Cycle#Requested move 30 August 2022</a> – Lowercase "Cycle"? Result: Lowercase</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Registered_Dental_Nurse#Requested_move_11_September_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Registered Dental Nurse">Talk:Registered Dental Nurse#Requested move 11 September 2022</a> – Lowercase "Dental Nurse"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Registered_Apprenticeship#Requested_move_10_September_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Registered Apprenticeship">Talk:Registered Apprenticeship#Requested move 10 September 2022</a> – Lowercase "Apprenticeship"? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ethereum#Uppercase_currency_name?" title="Talk:Ethereum">Talk:Ethereum#Uppercase currency name?</a> – Lowercase "Ether" in running prose? Result: Apparent consensus for lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Cinemas_in_Chernihiv&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:List of Cinemas in Chernihiv (page does not exist)">Talk:List of Cinemas in Chernihiv#Requested move 4 September 2022</a> – Lowercase "Cinemas"? Result: Yes. (article later deleted)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Registered_Nurse_Certified_in_Neonatal_Intensive_Care#Requested_move_3_September_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Registered Nurse Certified in Neonatal Intensive Care">Talk:Registered Nurse Certified in Neonatal Intensive Care#Requested move 3 September 2022</a> – Lowercase this role description? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Scopes_trial#Requested_move_4_September_2022" title="Talk:Scopes trial">Talk:Scopes trial#Requested move 4 September 2022</a> – Lowercase "Trial"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Therapeutic_use_exemptions#Requested_move_1_September_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Therapeutic use exemptions">Talk:Therapeutic use exemptions#Requested move 1 September 2022</a> – Uppercase "use" and "exemptions"? Result: No</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mari_Native_Religion#Requested_move_28_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Mari Native Religion">Talk:Mari Native Religion#Requested move 28 August 2022</a> – Uppercase only for the first word? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Aircraft_Maintenance_Engineer#Requested_move_26_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Aircraft Maintenance Engineer">Talk:Aircraft Maintenance Engineer#Requested move 26 August 2022</a> – Lowercase? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Less_Than_Zero_(The_Weeknd_song)#Requested_move_22_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Less Than Zero (The Weeknd song)">Talk:Less Than Zero (The Weeknd song)#Requested move 22 August 2022</a> – Lowercase "than"? Result: Lowercase <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Less_Than_Zero#Requested_move_24_August_2022" title="Talk:Less Than Zero">Talk:Less Than Zero#Requested move 24 August 2022</a> – Do the same for the other topics with the same name? Result: Lowercase</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:United_Nations_Convention_against_Torture#Requested_move_23_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:United Nations Convention against Torture">Talk:United Nations Convention against Torture#Requested move 23 August 2022</a> – Capitalize "against"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_College_Basketball#Over-capitalization" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball#Over-capitalization</a> – Lowercase men's basketball tournament, etc.? – discussion continued at <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:ACC_Men%27s_Basketball_Tournament#Requested_move_23_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:ACC Men's Basketball Tournament">Talk:ACC Men's Basketball Tournament#Requested move 23 August 2022</a> – Lowercase tournament names of the form "[Year] Organization Gender's Sport Tournament" to "[Year] Organization gender's sport tournament"? Result: Yes</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Donkey_punch_(cocktail)#Requested_move_21_August_2022" title="Talk:Donkey punch (cocktail)">Talk:Donkey punch (cocktail)#Requested move 21 August 2022</a> – Uppercase "punch"? Result: Lowercase for the cocktail, uppercase for the disambiguation page</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:IPA_number#Requested_move_21_August_2022" title="Talk:IPA number">Talk:IPA number#Requested move 21 August 2022</a> – Uppercase "number"? – withdrawn, leave <a href="/wiki/IPA_number" title="IPA number">IPA number</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Openmatics#Requested_move_15_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Openmatics">Talk:Openmatics#Requested move 15 August 2022</a> – Prefix with ZF and use all-caps? Result: Yes, for prefix; no for all-caps.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Great_Belt_Fixed_Link#Requested_move_8_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Great Belt Fixed Link">Talk:Great Belt Fixed Link#Requested move 8 August_2022</a> – Lowercase "fixed link"? Result: Moved to "Great Belt Bridge".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ghost_Site_Mounds#Requested_move_29_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Ghost Site Mounds">Talk:Ghost Site Mounds#Requested move 29 July 2022</a> – Ghost site mounds, or Ghost site maybe? Result: Ghost site</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:IKEA#Requested_move_7_August_2022" title="Talk:IKEA">Talk:IKEA#Requested move 7 August 2022</a> – Change to "Ikea"? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:American_Indian_elder#Requested_move_30_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:American Indian elder">Talk:American Indian elder#Requested move 30 July 2022</a> – Should WP capitalize "Indigenous"? Result: Capitalized</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Black_Power#Requested_move_4_August_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Black Power">Talk:Black Power#Requested move 4 August 2022</a> – Lowercase for "Power"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Requested_move_8_June_2022" title="Talk:Indus Valley Civilisation">Talk:Indus Valley Civilisation#Requested move 8 June 2022</a> – The usual question relative to sources. Initially closed as move to lowercase civilisation <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2022_June#Indus_Valley_civilisation" title="Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2022 June">Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2022 June#Indus Valley civilisation</a> – Review the close. Result: Overturned to no consensus</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hadith_of_warning#Requested_move_19_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hadith of warning">Talk:Hadith of warning#Requested move 19 July 2022</a> – Uppercase "warning"? Result: No consensus</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:United_Nations_list_of_Non-Self-Governing_Territories#Requested_move_14_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories">Talk:United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories#Requested move 14 July 2022</a> – Uppercase only the "United Nations" part of the title? Result: Yes <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2022_August#United_Nations_list_of_non-self-governing_territories" title="Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2022 August">Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2022 August‎#United Nations list of non-self-governing territories</a> – Was that decision appropriate? Result: Closure endorsed</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Free_Territory_(disambiguation)#Requested_move_25_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Free Territory (disambiguation)">Talk:Free Territory (disambiguation)#Requested move 25 July 2022</a> – Lowercase for "Territory"? (Not the main rationale for the proposed move) Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:SHINE_Medical_Technologies#Requested_move_21_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:SHINE Medical Technologies">Talk:SHINE Medical Technologies#Requested move 21 July 2022</a> – Drop the all-caps for "SHINE"? (Not the main rationale for the proposed move) Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Volcanic_Explosivity_Index#Requested_move_30_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Volcanic Explosivity Index">Talk:Volcanic Explosivity Index#Requested move 30 July 2022</a> – Lowercase, like most sources? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Black_is_Beautiful#Requested_move_26_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Black is Beautiful">Talk:Black is Beautiful#Requested move 26 July 2022</a> – Lowercase for "Beautiful"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Lost_Decades#Requested_move_7_July_2022" title="Talk:Lost Decades">Talk:Lost Decades#Requested move 7 July 2022</a> – Lowercase "Decades", among other issues? Result: Not moved. The closer commented about primary topic status but did not comment about capitalization.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Girls_Like_You#Requested_move_17_July_2022" title="Talk:Girls Like You">Talk:Girls Like You#Requested move 17 July 2022</a> – Lowercase "like"? This is a <a href="/wiki/MOS:5LETTER" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:5LETTER">MOS:5LETTER</a> discussion. Result: Uppercase retained as more prevalent in sources</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Copper_Hoard_Culture#Requested_move_5_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Copper Hoard Culture">Talk:Copper Hoard Culture#Requested move 5 July 2022</a> – Which words, if any, should be capitalized? Closed with <a href="/wiki/Copper_Hoard_culture" title="Copper Hoard culture">Copper Hoard culture</a>, as downcasing "Hoard" didn't find consensus</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:THEY.#Requested_move_8_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:THEY.">Talk:THEY.#Requested move 8 July 2022</a> – Move away from all-caps? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_dismal_science#Requested_move_11_July_2022" title="Talk:The dismal science">Talk:The dismal science#Requested move 11 July 2022</a> – cap Dismal Science? Result: No</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:UEFA-CONMEBOL_memorandum_of_understanding#Requested_move_29_June_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:UEFA-CONMEBOL memorandum of understanding">Talk:UEFA-CONMEBOL memorandum of understanding#Requested move 29 June 2022</a> – Lowercase for "Memorandum"? Uppercase for "understanding"? – Moved to lowercase both "memorandum" and "understanding"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Shit_Life_Syndrome#Requested_move_7_July_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Shit Life Syndrome">Talk:Shit Life Syndrome#Requested move 7 July 2022</a> – Moved to lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:European_Single_Market#Requested_move_24_June_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:European Single Market">Talk:European Single Market#Requested move 24 June 2022</a> – moved to lowercase single market</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Snickers2686#MOS:JOBTITLES" title="User talk:Snickers2686">User talk:Snickers2686#MOS:JOBTITLES</a> – "until [JOBTITLES is] applied consistently, which it isn't in this set of articles, then to me, it doesn't apply at all". – judges generally lowercased</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pyramid_of_Sahure#Why_capping_Pyramid_in_mid_sentence?" title="Talk:Pyramid of Sahure">Talk:Pyramid of Sahure#Why capping Pyramid in mid sentence?</a> – Overcapping in featured article – pyramid moved to lowercase except for a few exceptions</li> <li>Capitalisation of "battle of X" and "battle for X" in running prose: – generally only lowercase was supported for these: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_for_Brittany#Capitalisation_of_%22battle%22_in_%22battle_for_Brittany%22" title="Talk:Battle for Brittany">Talk:Battle for Brittany#Capitalisation of "battle" in "battle for Brittany"</a> – whether "battle" should be capitalised in running prose?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Mykolaiv#Capitalisation_of_%22battle%22_in_%22battle_of_Mykolaiv%22" title="Talk:Battle of Mykolaiv">Talk:Battle of Mykolaiv#Capitalisation of "battle" in "battle of Mykolaiv"</a> – whether "battle" should be capitalised in running prose?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Volnovakha#Capitalisation_of_%22battle%22_in_%22battle_of_Volnovakha%22" title="Talk:Battle of Volnovakha">Talk:Battle of Volnovakha#Capitalisation of "battle" in "battle of Volnovakha"</a> – whether "battle" should be capitalised in running prose?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Kherson#Capitalisation_of_%22battle%22_in_%22battle_of_Kherson%22" title="Talk:Battle of Kherson">Talk:Battle of Kherson#Capitalisation of "battle" in "battle of Kherson"</a> – whether "battle" should be capitalised in running prose?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Donbas_(2022)/Archive_1#Capitalisation_of_%22battle%22_in_%22battle_of_Donbas%22" title="Talk:Battle of Donbas (2022)/Archive 1">Talk:Battle of Donbas (2022)/Archive 1#Capitalisation of "battle" in "battle of Donbas"</a> – whether "battle" should be capitalised in running prose?</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Battle_for_Baby_700#Capitalisation_of_%22battle%22_in_%22battle_for_Baby_700%22" title="Talk:Battle for Baby 700">Talk:Battle for Baby 700#Capitalisation of "battle" in "battle for Baby 700"</a> – whether "battle" should be capitalised in running prose?</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Redirect#RFC_on_NOTBROKEN_interpretation" title="Wikipedia talk:Redirect">WT:Redirect#RFC on NOTBROKEN interpretation</a> – fix miscapitalization in piped links? – confusing discussion, without consensus on what's worth fixing</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:ATP_Rankings#Requested_move_2_April_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:ATP Rankings">Talk:ATP Rankings#Requested move 2 April 2022</a> – Multi-article RM re 3 sets of tennis rankings; proper names? – lowercase rankings</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis#Case-fixup_loose_ends" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis">WT:WikiProject Tennis#Case-fixup loose ends</a> – more on case of tooltips and table headers in tennis articles – fixed to lowercase and/or sentence case</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:You_Can_Count_On_Me#Requested_move_24_March_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:You Can Count On Me">Talk:You Can Count On Me#Requested move 24 March 2022</a> – Lowercase for "On"? Result: Yes. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Count_On_Me#Requested_move_12_April_2022" title="Talk:Count On Me">Talk:Count On Me#Requested move 12 April 2022</a> – Multi-article RM (15 articles) – more lowercase for "On"? – no consensus</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Chief_Justice_of_the_United_States#Lede_section" title="Talk:Chief Justice of the United States">Talk:Chief Justice of the United States#Lede section</a> – JOBTITLES again</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Lunch_Atop_a_Skyscraper#Requested_move_27_May_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Lunch Atop a Skyscraper">Talk:Lunch Atop a Skyscraper#Requested move 27 May 2022</a> – Lowercase "Atop"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:INgrooves#Requested_move_27_May_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:INgrooves">Talk:INgrooves#Requested move 27 May 2022</a> – Lowercase the second letter? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Letters_Patent_(United_Kingdom)#Requested_move_20_May_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Letters Patent (United Kingdom)">Talk:Letters Patent (United Kingdom)#Requested move 20 May 2022</a> – Use lowercase for "Patent"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Islamic_State#Requested_move_18_May_2022" title="Talk:Islamic State">Talk:Islamic State#Requested move 18 May 2022</a> – Is the capitalization sufficient to distinguish this topic from others? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Russian_occupation_of_Kherson_Oblast/Archive_1#Requested_move_29_April_2022" title="Talk:Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast/Archive 1">Talk:Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast/Archive 1#Requested move 29 April 2022</a> – Use lowercase for "Oblast"? Result: Not moved. Capitalization not the focus of the proposal and discussion. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Cherkasy_Oblast#Requested_move_12_May_2022" title="Talk:Cherkasy Oblast">Talk:Cherkasy Oblast#Requested move 12 May 2022</a> – Multi-article RM (24 articles) – Use lowercase for "Oblast"? Result: "absence of consensus"</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:DOS_Navigator#Requested_move_23_April_2022" title="Talk:DOS Navigator">Talk:DOS Navigator#Requested move 23 April 2022</a> – Change "DOS" to "Dos"? Result: No</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Smokin_Out_the_Window" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Smokin Out the Window">Talk:Smokin Out the Window</a> – lowercase "out"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Imam_Reza_Shrine#Requested_move_5_May_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Imam Reza Shrine">Talk:Imam Reza Shrine#Requested move 5 May 2022</a> – Use lowercase for "shrine"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Caesar%27s_Civil_War#Requested_move_1_May_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Caesar's Civil War">Talk:Caesar's Civil War#Requested move 1 May 2022</a> – Use lowercase for "civil war"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Here_Technologies#Requested_move_24_April_2022" title="Talk:Here Technologies">Talk:Here Technologies#Requested move 24 April 2022</a> – Change "Here" to all-caps "HERE"? Result: No</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Off_our_backs#Requested_move_21_April_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Off our backs">Talk:off our backs#Requested move 21 April 2022</a> – uppercase each word in the title of this publication? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Tiananmen_Incident#Requested_move_29_March_2022" title="Talk:Tiananmen Incident">Talk:Tiananmen Incident#‎Requested move 29 March 2022</a> – 1976 "Incident" or "incident" (or something else)? Result: Year added; capitalization not an explicit part of the decision.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:4_the_People#Requested_move_24_April_2022" title="Talk:4 the People">Talk:4 the People#Requested move 24 April 2022</a> – uppercase "The"? Result: No</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_U.S._National_Parks_by_elevation#Requested_move_16_April_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of U.S. National Parks by elevation">Talk:List of U.S. National Parks by elevation#Requested move 16 April 2022</a> – lowercase for "National Parks"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Habsburg_Monarchy#Requested_move_29_March_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Habsburg Monarchy">Talk:Habsburg Monarchy#Requested move 29 March 2022</a> – lowercase "monarchy"? Result: Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_politics#Requested_move_25_March_2022" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian politics">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian politics#Requested move 25 March 2022</a> – "Electoral results for the Division of X" or "... the division of X"? Result: Retain uppercase "Division"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Project_CARS#Requested_move_24_March_2022" title="Talk:Project CARS">Talk:Project CARS#Requested move 24 March 2022</a> – "CARS" → "Cars"? Result: No (arguing it is an abbreviation)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_historic_sites_of_Japan_(K%C5%8Dchi)" title="Talk:List of historic sites of Japan (Kōchi)">Talk:List of historic sites of Japan (Kōchi)</a> (1 article) and <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Historic_Sites_of_Japan_(Aichi)" title="Talk:List of Historic Sites of Japan (Aichi)">Talk:List of Historic Sites of Japan (Aichi)</a> (45 articles) – Uppercase or lowercase "Historic Sites" in the titles? Result: Lowercase for Kōchi; no consensus about the others (producing an inconsistent result)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Parliamentary_constituencies_in_Lincolnshire#Requested_move_28_March_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of Parliamentary constituencies in Lincolnshire">Talk:List of Parliamentary constituencies in Lincolnshire#Requested move 28 March 2022</a> – lowercase "Parliamentary"? Yes (not much of a question, really).</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Steam_Gun_Boat#Requested_move_31_March_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Steam Gun Boat">Talk:Steam Gun Boat#Requested move 31 March 2022</a> – Multi RM re 3 boat types; proper names? Result: Lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Norwegian_First_Division#Requested_move_11_March_2022" title="Talk:Norwegian First Division">Talk:Norwegian First Division#Requested move 11 March 2022</a> – lowercase "first division" etc.? Result: No consensus, so remains uppercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Black_and_Tan" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Black and Tan">Talk:Black and Tan</a> – Lowercase for "Tan"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Rainhill_Trials#Requested_move_22_February_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Rainhill Trials">Talk:Rainhill Trials#Requested move 22 February 2022</a> – "trials"? Result: use lower-case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis#Over-capitalization_still" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis">WT:WikiProject Tennis#Over-capitalization still</a> – "Win–Loss" table heading? – abandoned <ul><li>And related at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#Disruptive_editing_by_User:Dicklyon" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ANI">WP:ANI#Disruptive editing by User:Dicklyon</a> – is this case-fixing work disruptive? – close as unproductive</li> <li>See renewed discussion at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis#Case-fixup_loose_ends" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis">WT:WikiProject Tennis#Case-fixup loose ends</a>.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Olympic_Athletes_from_Russia_at_the_2018_Winter_Olympics#Requested_move_16_February_2022" title="Talk:Olympic Athletes from Russia at the 2018 Winter Olympics">Talk:Olympic Athletes from Russia at the 2018 Winter Olympics#Requested move 16 February 2022</a> – downcase athletes, participants? – "no consensus whether those are team names, and thus proper names, or descriptive phrases"</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Olympics#Standardizing_spelling_(upper-case_or_lower-case)_in_tables_(medal_by_games)" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics">WT:WikiProject Olympics#Standardizing spelling (upper-case or lower-case) in tables (medal by games)</a> on case conventions for table entries -- lowercase for "did not participate", "as part of ...", "future event", and such annotations in table cells.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:House_system_at_the_California_Institute_of_Technology#RfC_on_capitalization_of_buildings" title="Talk:House system at the California Institute of Technology">Talk:House system at the California Institute of Technology#RfC on capitalization of buildings</a> – or complexes? Result: "north and south houses" should follow sentence case.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Snow_Dozer" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Snow Dozer">Talk:Snow Dozer</a> – Move to lowercase? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:SA-Best" title="Talk:SA-Best">Talk:SA-Best</a> – Move to all-caps? Result: No, suggestion withdrawn.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Foreign_Secretary#Capitalisation_issues" title="Talk:Foreign Secretary">Talk:Foreign Secretary#Capitalisation issues</a> – JOBTITLE question again</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:1912_World_Hard_Court_Championships_%E2%80%93_Mixed_Doubles#Requested_move_8_January_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:1912 World Hard Court Championships – Mixed Doubles">Talk:1912 World Hard Court Championships – Mixed Doubles#Requested move 8 January 2022</a> – Fix tennis subtitles to sentence case (in whole or in part); involves <a href="/wiki/MOS:CAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:CAPS">MOS:CAPS</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NCCAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NCCAPS">WP:NCCAPS</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:DASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DASH">MOS:DASH</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NATURAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NATURAL">WP:NATURAL</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONLEVEL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONLEVEL">WP:CONLEVEL</a>, and other arguments – Decided to use sentence case for subtitles after dash in such sport article titles. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis#Are_%22Men's_Singles%22_and_%22Women's_Doubles%22,_etc.,_proper_names?" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis">WT:WikiProject Tennis#Are "Men's Singles" and "Women's Doubles", etc., proper names?</a> – about headings, not titles; a related earlier discussion</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Dash_in_sporting_event_titles" title="Wikipedia talk:Article titles">Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Dash in sporting event titles</a> – Cap after dash in title? Is this a subtitle, or what? A related even earlier discussion.</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mau_Mau_Uprising#Requested_move_26_February_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Mau Mau Uprising">Talk:Mau Mau Uprising#Requested move 26 February 2022</a> – six candidates: "U/uprising", "R/rebellion" and "R/revolt". Result: "rebellion".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States_Olympic_Trials_(track_and_field)#Requested_move_11_February_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:United States Olympic Trials (track and field)">Talk:United States Olympic Trials (track and field)#Requested move 11 February 2022</a> – lowercase trials? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Iranian_Plateau#Requested_move_11_February_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Iranian Plateau">Talk:Iranian Plateau#Requested move 11 February 2022</a> – to lowercase plateau? Result: Yes. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mexican_Plateau#Requested_move_13_February_2022" title="Talk:Mexican Plateau">Talk:Mexican Plateau#Requested move 13 February 2022</a> – to lowercase plateau, as with Iranian plateau? Result: No consensus</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pok%C3%A9mon_Legends:_Arceus#RfC:_Should_Pok%C3%A9mon_types_be_capitalized_in_sentences?" title="Talk:Pokémon Legends: Arceus">Talk:Pokémon Legends: Arceus#RfC: Should Pokémon types be capitalized in sentences?</a> Should Pokémon types be capitalized in sentences? Result: consensus against capitalization.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2022_January_31#Dark_side_of_the_Moon" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 31">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 31#Dark side of the Moon</a> (discussion started 13 January 2022) – Does the lowercase "side" indicate a part of the orbiting object or part of the Pink Floyd discography? Result: The orbiting object.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Purex_(laundry_detergent)#Requested_move_21_January_2022" title="Talk:Purex (laundry detergent)">Talk:Purex (laundry detergent)#Requested move 21 January 2022</a> – Is the mixed case sufficient to distinguish this from the <a href="/wiki/PUREX" title="PUREX">PUREX</a> process? Result: No, so use disambiguation for "Purex".</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Gillard_Government#Requested_move_26_January_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Gillard Government">Talk:Gillard Government#Requested move 26 January 2022</a> – Lowercase "government"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Hibiscus_Coast_Busway_Station#Requested_move_31_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Hibiscus Coast Busway Station">Talk:Hibiscus Coast Busway Station#Requested move 31 December 2021</a> – Lowercase "Busway" and "Station"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy#Requested_move_31_January_2022" title="Talk:Lost Cause of the Confederacy">Talk:Lost Cause of the Confederacy#Requested move 31 January 2022</a> – Lowercase as term of art per <a href="/wiki/MOS:SIGNIFCAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:SIGNIFCAPS">MOS:SIGNIFCAPS</a> and usage in sources and possibly italicise title and first usage in article? Result: Not moved, since capped in most sources.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Zambezian_cryptosepalum_dry_forests#Requested_move_19_January_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Zambezian cryptosepalum dry forests">Talk:Zambezian cryptosepalum dry forests#Requested move 19 January 2022</a> – Uppercase for "cryptosepalum" (or some other approach)? Result: Different phrasing.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Exit_Sign_(song)#Requested_move_28_January_2022" title="Talk:Exit Sign (song)">Talk:Exit Sign (song)#Requested move 28 January 2022</a> – Is the capital letter sufficient to distinguish this song from a physical sign? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Decossackization#Requested_move_27_January_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Decossackization">Talk:Decossackization#Requested move 27 January 2022</a> – Should the "C" be capitalized, as in "De-Cossackization"? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:MILCK#Requested_move_12_January_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:MILCK">Talk:MILCK#Requested move 12 January 2022</a> – Is all-caps appropriate for this stage name? Result: No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:National_Historic_Landmark#Requested_move_18_January_2022" title="Talk:National Historic Landmark">Talk:National Historic Landmark#Requested move 18 January 2022</a> – Multimove to lowercase for "National Historic [Capitalized singular]", "National [Capitalized plural]", and "List of Historic [Capitalized plural]"? Result: Withdrawn after near-unanimous opposition to the central principle based on the linguistic concept of a proper name, noting consistent capitalization in sources.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Judge_Advocate_General#Requested_move_7_January_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Judge Advocate General">Talk:Judge Advocate General#Requested move 7 January 2022</a> – or "Judge advocate general" for this disambiguation page? Result: downcased</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:G-force#Requested_move_7_January_2022" title="Talk:G-force">Talk:g-force#Requested move 7 January 2022</a> – "g-force" or "G-force"? Result: RM procedurally closed (made no difference) and usage in article prose already changed to "g-force".</li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256386598"> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center;"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">2021</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <ul><li>RMs on capitalization of "Attorneys" and "Ambassadors" (or rephrasing to avoid the plural formal title): – all downcased <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_United_States_Ambassadors_appointed_by_Joe_Biden#Requested_move_27_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of United States Ambassadors appointed by Joe Biden">Talk:List of United States Ambassadors appointed by Joe Biden#Requested move 27 December 2021</a> – <a href="/wiki/List_of_ambassadors_appointed_by_Joe_Biden" title="List of ambassadors appointed by Joe Biden">List of ambassadors appointed by Joe Biden</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_United_States_Attorneys_appointed_by_Joe_Biden#Requested_move_27_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of United States Attorneys appointed by Joe Biden">Talk:List of United States Attorneys appointed by Joe Biden#Requested move 27 December 2021</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States_Ambassadors_appointed_by_Donald_Trump#Requested_move_27_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:United States Ambassadors appointed by Donald Trump">Talk:United States Ambassadors appointed by Donald Trump#Requested move 27 December 2021</a> (and prefixing the title with "List of") – <a href="/wiki/List_of_ambassadors_appointed_by_Donald_Trump" title="List of ambassadors appointed by Donald Trump">List of ambassadors appointed by Donald Trump</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_United_States_Attorneys_appointed_by_Donald_Trump#Requested_move_27_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:List of United States Attorneys appointed by Donald Trump">Talk:List of United States Attorneys appointed by Donald Trump#Requested move 27 December 2021</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:HARDTalk#Requested_move_23_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:HARDTalk">Talk:HARDTalk#Requested move 23 December 2021</a> – How about "HARDtalk"? – Yes</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:An_Giang_Province#Requested_move_7_November_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:An Giang Province">Talk:An Giang Province#Requested move 7 November 2021</a> – Lowercase "province" for that and <a href="/wiki/Y%C3%AAn_B%C3%A1i_Province" class="mw-redirect" title="Yên Bái Province">Yên Bái Province</a>? Result: Yes. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Alborz_Province#Requested_move_24_January_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Alborz Province">Talk:Alborz Province#Requested move 24 January 2022</a> – Extend downcasing of "Province" to Iran? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Amnat_Charoen_Province#Requested_move_2_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Amnat Charoen Province">Talk:Amnat Charoen Province#Requested move 2 December 2021</a> – Extend downcasing of "Province" to Thailand? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/China-_and_Chinese-related_articles#Chinese_placenames" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles#Chinese placenames</a> – "province", "district", etc. – stale discussion; downcasing probably needed.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Southeast_Asia#Downcasing_%22Province%22" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Southeast Asia">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Southeast Asia#Downcasing "Province"</a> – Lowercase like we did for Vietnam provinces? – Yes for Laos, Cambodia, Thailand; include districts; no more countries there.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Adrianople_Vilayet#Requested_move_2_February_2022" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Adrianople Vilayet">Talk:Adrianople_Vilayet#Requested move 2 February 2022</a> – How about "vilayet"? Result: Lowercase</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Focus_Broadband" title="Talk:Focus Broadband">Talk:Focus Broadband</a> – "Focus" or "FOCUS"? Result: Not moved</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Fixed_penalty_notice#Requested_move_27_December_2021" title="Talk:Fixed penalty notice">Talk:Fixed penalty notice#Requested move 27 December 2021</a> – Caps for each word, as "Fixed Penalty Notice"? Result: No</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_United_States_Congresses#Requested_move_18_November_2021" title="Talk:List of United States Congresses">Talk:List of United States Congresses#Requested move 18 November 2021</a> – Lowercase for the plural Congresses? Result: No consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:AT#RFC_on_dash-separated_titles_for_sports_events" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:AT">WT:AT#RFC on dash-separated titles for sports events</a> 2 January 2022 – Capping of "Men's Singles" and "women's doubles"? Result: No consensus to ban dashes, no consensus on capitalization; consensus that capitalization should be worked out at WikiProject Tennis.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Five_Animals#Requested_move_19_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Five Animals">Talk:Five Animals#Requested move 19 December 2021</a> – Rephrase without an uppercase second word? Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Frailty_(the_Banner_album)#Requested_move_19_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Frailty (the Banner album)">Talk:Frailty (the Banner album)#Requested move 19 December 2021</a> – Uppercase for "the" in the disambiguator? (or just remove "the"?) Result: Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Third_circle_of_hell#Requested_move_17_December_2021" title="Talk:Third circle of hell">Talk:Third circle of hell#Requested move 17 December 2021</a> – Uppercase for "circle" and "hell" for Dante's first, second and third circles? Result: No (at least not for "circle").</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:GAVI#Requested_move_8_December_2021" title="Talk:GAVI">Talk:GAVI#‎Requested move 8 December 2021</a> – GAVI or Gavi? (and other issues such as disambiguation) Result: Keep at GAVI.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Bohemian_Crown_Jewels#Requested_move_13_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Bohemian Crown Jewels">Talk:Bohemian Crown Jewels#Requested move 13 December 2021</a> – Lowercase for "Crown" and "Jewels"? Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:National_Security_Council#Requested_move_13_December_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:National Security Council">Talk:National Security Council#Requested move 13 December 2021</a> – Lowercase since this is about councils in various countries rather than one specific council? Result: lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Championships,_Wimbledon#Requested_move_2_November_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:The Championships, Wimbledon">Talk:The Championships, Wimbledon#Requested move 2 November 2021</a> – Gentlemen's/Men's Singles or singles? Result: lowercase "singles"/"doubles", but uppercase "Men's"/"Women's"; this has led to a follow-on RfC at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#RFC_on_dash-separated_titles_for_sports_events" title="Wikipedia talk:Article titles">Wikipedia talk:Article titles#RFC on dash-separated titles for sports events</a></li> <li>Railway line or Line – partially inconclusive <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Western_Australia#Railway_lines_and_services_in_Perth" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia#Railway lines and services in Perth</a> – Move to capped "Station" and "Line" in many cases? Maybe an RM would be a better way to handle this.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Joondalup_railway_line#Requested_move_8_November_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Joondalup railway line">Talk:Joondalup railway line#Requested move 8 November 2021</a> – Uppercase for "line" (and removing "railway")? No. Keep this batch of titles at "railway line".</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Capitalization_of_The" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Capitalization of The</a> – 14 July 2021 – "The Bahamas" or "the Bahamas"? – no official close, but consensus seems to be lowercase "the" in the Bahamas and the Gambia.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:COnnecting_REpositories#Requested_move_27_November_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:COnnecting REpositories">Talk:COnnecting REpositories#Requested move 27 November 2021</a> – Should this be "CORE (something)" instead? Moved to <a href="/wiki/CORE_(research_service)" title="CORE (research service)">CORE (research service)</a> 4 December 2021.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:POLYGON_experiment#Requested_move_26_November_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:POLYGON experiment">Talk:POLYGON experiment#Requested move 26 November 2021</a> – POLYGON or Polygon? Polygon.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:24_Hours_of_LeMons" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:24 Hours of LeMons">Talk:24 Hours of LeMons</a> – or Lemons? Lemons.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Pretendian#Capitalized_or_lowercase?" title="Talk:Pretendian">Talk:Pretendian#Capitalized or lowercase?</a> – In mid-sentence, should this be Pretendian or pretendian? Lowercase 13 November 2021 (UTC)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Armenian_Highlands#Requested_move_27_October_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Armenian Highlands">Talk:Armenian Highlands#Requested move 27 October 2021</a> – Lowercase for Highlands? Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Model_United_Nations#Capitalization?" title="Talk:Model United Nations">Talk:Model United Nations#Capitalization?</a> – Uppercase for "model" in mid-sentence? Lowercase except in the names of specific organizations, as of 16 October 2021</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:House_system_at_the_California_Institute_of_Technology#Capitalization" title="Talk:House system at the California Institute of Technology">Talk:House system at the California Institute of Technology#Capitalization</a> – re "North Houses", "South Houses", "Rotation" and such Caltech terms – lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Parkinsonism#Capitalization" title="Talk:Parkinsonism">Talk:Parkinsonism#Capitalization</a> – Parkinsonism or parkinsonism? – lowercase.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:New_York_City_Subway#Requested_move_14_October_2021" title="Talk:New York City Subway">Talk:New York City Subway#Requested move 14 October 2021</a> – Is subway capped in sentences, or only on map titles? – left at capped Subway (non-admin close of a long contentious discussion)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Member_of_parliament#Requested_move_12_November_2021" title="Talk:Member of parliament">Talk:Member of parliament#Requested move 12 November 2021</a> – Uppercase for parliament? No. (previously discussed in 2014)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Whitehouse.gov#Requested_move_14_October_2021" title="Talk:Whitehouse.gov">Talk:Whitehouse.gov#Requested move 14 October 2021</a> – Whitehouse.gov or WhiteHouse.gov? No consensus 11 November 2021 (UTC)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Seven_%26_I_Holdings#Requested_move_8_November_2021" title="Talk:Seven & I Holdings">Talk:Seven & I Holdings#Requested move 8 November 2021</a> – Lowercase for "I"? No – 15 November 2021 (UTC)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Samsung_S8300_UltraTouch#Requested_move_6_November_2021" title="Talk:Samsung S8300 UltraTouch">Talk:Samsung S8300 UltraTouch#Requested move 6 November 2021</a> – UltraTouch or UltraTOUCH? – Kept UltraTouch</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Beer_Mixes#Requested_move_5_November_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Beer Mixes">Talk:Beer Mixes#Requested move 5 November 2021</a> – Mixes or mix? – moved to lowercase singular</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Principle_of_Coordination#Requested_move_5_November_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Principle of Coordination">Talk:Principle of Coordination#Requested move 5 November 2021</a> – Coordination/Homonymy/Priority/Typification/Ubiquity or coordination/homonymy/priority/typification/ubiquity? – moved to lowercase</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Go#Add_capitalization_of_Go_to_Guidelines" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Go">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Go#Add capitalization of Go to Guidelines</a> – Is the board game go or Go? – consensus for Go – added to <a href="/wiki/MOS:GAMECAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:GAMECAPS">MOS:GAMECAPS</a> 5 November 2021 <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Four_go_houses#Requested_move_8_November_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Four go houses">Talk:Four go houses#Requested move 8 November 2021</a> – another RM submitted 8 November 2021 citing new change of <a href="/wiki/MOS:GAMECAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:GAMECAPS">MOS:GAMECAPS</a> as of 5 November 2021 – consensus for Go</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Add_convention_of_capitalizing_Go" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Add convention of capitalizing Go</a> – consensus for Go – added to <a href="/wiki/MOS:GAMECAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:GAMECAPS">MOS:GAMECAPS</a> 5 November 2021</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Mirror_Go#Requested_move_11_October_2021" title="Talk:Mirror Go">Talk:Mirror Go#Requested move 11 October 2021</a> – no consensus 27 October 2021</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Four_go_houses#Requested_move_11_October_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Four go houses">Talk:Four go houses#Requested move 11 October 2021</a> – no consensus 27 October 2021</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Environmental_Racism_in_the_United_States#Requested_move_29_October_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Environmental Racism in the United States">Talk:Environmental Racism in the United States#Requested move 29 October 2021</a> – Lowercase for "Racism"? Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Apple_silicon#Requested_move_4_November_2021" title="Talk:Apple silicon">Talk:Apple silicon#Requested move 4 November 2021</a> – Uppercase for silicon? No.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Principle_of_Some_Astonishment#Requested_move_30_October_2021" title="Wikipedia talk:Principle of Some Astonishment">Wikipedia talk:Principle of Some Astonishment#Requested move 30 October 2021</a> – Some Astonishment or some astonishment? – Not moved 6 November 2021 after irritation expressed over applying caps rules outside of article space</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Swiss-model" title="Talk:Swiss-model">Talk:Swiss-model</a> RM to move to all caps – no consensus</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Major_Arcana#Requested_move_20_August_2021" title="Talk:Major Arcana">Talk:Major Arcana#Requested move 20 August 2021</a> – no consensus</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Crisis_of_the_Third_Century#Requested_move_30_August_2021" title="Talk:Crisis of the Third Century">Talk:Crisis of the Third Century#Requested move 30 August 2021</a> – result: not moved.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Deputy_prime_minister_of_Canada#Requested_move_22_August_2021" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Deputy prime minister of Canada">Talk:Deputy prime minister of Canada#Requested move 22 August 2021</a> – should the job title be capitalized in the article title? Yes.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Government_bio_infoboxes,_should_they_be_decapitalized_or_not." title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography § Government bio infoboxes, should they be decapitalized or not.</a></li> <li><a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#The_capitalisation_of_%22Internet%22_(referring_to_the_global_interconnected_network_generally_used_today)">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#The capitalisation of "Internet" (referring to the global interconnected network generally used today)</a> – February 2021 – no consensus.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Fermat%27s_Last_Theorem#Requested_move_2_August_2021" title="Talk:Fermat's Last Theorem">Talk:Fermat's Last Theorem#Requested move 2 August 2021</a> – Should this article follow MOSCAPS's guidance on theories or not. – apparently not.</li> <li><a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#Ebony_and_Ivory">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Ebony and Ivory</a> – Rehash of the recent RfC about "black and white", "Black and White", or "Black but white" (July 2021) – no new conclusion.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Afar_Region#Requested_move_28_May_2021" title="Talk:Afar Region">Talk:Afar Region#Requested move 28 May 2021</a> – no consensus about Region caps</li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> </div></div></div> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(2)"><h2 id="Possessives_and_premodern_figures" data-mw-thread-id="h-Possessives_and_premodern_figures-20240914121500">Possessives and premodern figures</h2><span id='ooui-php-234' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Remsense-20241026022700-SMcCandlish-20241026021800">28 days ago</a>11 comments6 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-2 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-2"> Please forgive me for broaching one of the subjects with dozens of previous discussions linked in the header, but this has been bugging me and it seems major enough to be a source of consistent confusion and discrepancy. Generally, articles about classical figures (or at least that's the most helpful scope I can ascertain) with Greco-Latin names ending in S like <a href="/wiki/Archimedes" title="Archimedes">Archimedes</a> seem to consciously diverge from <a href="/wiki/MOS:%27S" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:'S">MOS:'S</a>. It seems to be a real problem, as these are among the most prominent examples of what the aforementioned guideline is meant to cover. As we seem rather unlikely to happen upon a well-defined exception for the MOS, what are we meant to do here? <a href="/wiki/User:Remsense" title="User:Remsense">Remsense</a> ‥ <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Remsense" title="User talk:Remsense">论</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Remsense-20240914121500-Possessives_and_premodern_figures" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:15, 14 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>are you referring to adding an S after the apostrophe, or to using <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r886049734">.mw-parser-output .monospaced{font-family:monospace,monospace}</style>U+0027 ' APOSTROPHE rather than <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r886049734">U+2019 ’ RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK? -- <a href="/wiki/User:Chatul" title="User:Chatul">Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chatul" title="User talk:Chatul">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Chatul-20240915151500-Remsense-20240914121500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-2" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The former, sorry. Archimedes' versus Archimedes's. <a href="/wiki/User:Remsense" title="User:Remsense">Remsense</a> ‥ <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Remsense" title="User talk:Remsense">论</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Remsense-20240916020900-Chatul-20240915151500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-3" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Why should it have anything to do with the date of the subject? We do not change our language to classical Greek to talk about Archimedes; why should we change it in other ways?</dd> <dd>But now I'm wondering about a different issue. A possessive 's or s', at least the way I would speak it, is voiced, more like a z. So is the way I would normally pronounce the s at the end of the name Archimedes. If I were more stuffy about Greek pronunciation (remembering that scene from Bill and Ted) it might be different. But for some reason, some other names ending in vowel-s (including Moses and Jesus) end with an unvoiced s for me. If I spell the possessive "Moses' " and pronounce it "Mozəz", I am substituting the final consonant rather than merely dropping a repeated consonant. But if I spell it "Moses's", and pronounce it "Mozəsəz", it seems more logical to me because I am still pronouncing both the name and the possessive the way I would expect to.</dd> <dd>Which is to say that I think the use of s' vs s's could reasonably be based on pronounciation rather than orthography or chronology. —<a href="/wiki/User:David_Eppstein" title="User:David Eppstein">David Eppstein</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Eppstein" title="User talk:David Eppstein">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-David_Eppstein-20240916071700-Remsense-20240916020900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-4" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>No trailing S seems the more common style in sources in those contexts, which has recently been gestured to on <a href="/wiki/Archimedes%27_heat_ray" title="Archimedes' heat ray">Archimedes' heat ray</a> as to why it is conventional here. I don't agree with that at all, but it's an argument—one that seems to be directly contradicted by existing consensus, which is why I'm a bit flummoxed.</dd> <dd>I also disagree with the phonology argument, as that is surely something that varies by accent and likely cannot be clearly distinguished in many cases. <a href="/wiki/User:Remsense" title="User:Remsense">Remsense</a> ‥ <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Remsense" title="User talk:Remsense">论</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Remsense-20240916072100-David_Eppstein-20240916071700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-5" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>There are two distinct issues.Correct grammar calls for dropping the S only after a plural ending in S. A singular ending in S has an 's possessive form.</dd> <dd>The other issue is what Wikipedia's policy is or should be. That, presumably, is driven by <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Chatul" title="User:Chatul">Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chatul" title="User talk:Chatul">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Chatul-20240916091400-David_Eppstein-20240916071700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-6" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Not really, as citation or quotation isn't the same thing as transcription: we're fully capable of diverging in style from our sources (in many cases we are expected to) because it obviously doesn't affect the meaning of the claims. <a href="/wiki/User:Remsense" title="User:Remsense">Remsense</a> ‥ <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Remsense" title="User talk:Remsense">论</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Remsense-20240916091600-Chatul-20240916091400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-7" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>It's generally observed that Jesus and Moses do not take the apostrophe s, to avoid the ziz ziz sound: so Jesus' and Moses'. (Tangent: Suppose there are several people called Jesus, who collectively own something - it would be the Jesuses's.) However it is not generally considered categorically wrong. I forget what MoS says. All the best: <a href="/wiki/User:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User:Rich Farmbrough">Rich</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User talk:Rich Farmbrough">Farmbrough</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Rich_Farmbrough-20240928202600-David_Eppstein-20240916071700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a>.<span id="ooui-php-8" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Sounds a bit too much like <a href="/wiki/Azazel" title="Azazel">Azazel</a>. MORE THAN A COINCIDENCE??? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241016174400-Rich_Farmbrough-20240928202600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-9" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>We should absolutely not return to making exceptions on this. Major style guides like Chicago (the one most of MoS is based on) have abandoned this stuff, and those that do or used to make exceptions for it never offered consistent exceptions, nor reasons for any that were consistent between style guides, consistent with principles within the same style guide, or even consistent with actual linguistic and pyschological facts, but just confused rationalizations offered in defense of contradictory "traditions". PS: Actual oral pronunciation of something like "Jesus's" or "Jesus'", as you like, varies entirely by dialect and often by other factors (habituation within a particular subculture, like a specific church commnity, etc). — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241026021800-Remsense-20240914121500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:18, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-10" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I'll just bluntly ask: "if I start changing this in highly visible articles, how much pushback will I get"? I don't want to step on peoples' toes, but I also think the current disconnect between many important articles and what policy plainly says is a problem. <a href="/wiki/User:Remsense" title="User:Remsense">Remsense</a> ‥ <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Remsense" title="User talk:Remsense">论</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Remsense-20241026022700-SMcCandlish-20241026021800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-11" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(3)"><h2 id="Formatting_of_captions" data-mw-thread-id="h-Formatting_of_captions-20240923191400">Formatting of captions</h2><span id='ooui-php-235' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241026020500-HandsomeFella-20240923191400">28 days ago</a>5 comments5 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-3 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-3"> I propose this rule: <ul><li>However, if any complete sentence occurs in a caption, then every sentence and every sentence fragment in that caption should end with a period.</li></ul> should be complemented by this: <ul><li>For sentence-fragment captions, if other punctuation occurs, then that caption should also end with a period.</li></ul> See example at <a href="/wiki/John_Vivian,_4th_Baron_Swansea" title="John Vivian, 4th Baron Swansea">John Vivian, 4th Baron Swansea</a>. It seems weird to me to have every other punctuation – but not the very last. <a href="/wiki/User:HandsomeFella" title="User:HandsomeFella">HandsomeFella</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HandsomeFella" title="User talk:HandsomeFella">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-HandsomeFella-20240923191400-Formatting_of_captions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-12" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>That's not the sentence in the article; remove the extraneous or. The proposal sounds reasonable at first glance but could use a strong justification. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Chatul" title="User:Chatul">Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chatul" title="User talk:Chatul">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Chatul-20240923193900-HandsomeFella-20240923191400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-13" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>So if a caption includes a harmless comma or dash, it must end in a period? I don't think that would be an improvement. Our current rule is simple and consistent and I can't see a good reason for such a change. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20240926083900-HandsomeFella-20240923191400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-14" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>A sure way to distress readers and editors would be to punctuate captions that aren't sentences with periods, as if they were sentences. That would be very weird indeed, and lead to reverts of insertions of periods or to expansions of captions into weighty sentences, which would then be reverted, and the disruption would continue until the MOS change was reverted. <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NebY" title="User talk:NebY">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-NebY-20240926152000-HandsomeFella-20240923191400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:20, 26 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-15" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Agreed with "don't think that would be an improvement" and "would be very weird indeed", and the potential for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BIKESHEDDING" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BIKESHEDDING">WP:BIKESHEDDING</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DRAMA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DRAMA">WP:DRAMA</a> across a large number of pages (most any with illustrations, really). — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241026020500-HandsomeFella-20240923191400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-16" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(4)"><h2 id="Proposed_astronomy_MoS" data-mw-thread-id="h-Proposed_astronomy_MoS-20240924173200">Proposed astronomy MoS</h2><span id='ooui-php-236' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121095400-Praemonitus-20240924173200">2 days ago</a>10 comments5 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-4 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-4"> We have put together a proposed MoS article for the subject of astronomy, located here: <a href="/w/index.php?title=MOS:ASTRO&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MOS:ASTRO (page does not exist)">MOS:ASTRO</a>. Is there an approval process that needs to be followed to have it be included on the {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Style" title="Template:Style">Style</a>}} template? I.e. to have it added to the 'By topic area' under 'Science'. I just want to understand the steps. Thank you. <a href="/wiki/User:Praemonitus" title="User:Praemonitus">Praemonitus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Praemonitus" title="User talk:Praemonitus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Praemonitus-20240924173200-Proposed_astronomy_MoS" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-17" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><dl><dd>New shortcut: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ASTROSTYLE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ASTROSTYLE">WP:ASTROSTYLE</a>. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121095400-Praemonitus-20240924173200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-18" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Hmmm… It covers a few things that are not really Style issues. Perhaps it should be entitled WP:ASTRO not MOS:ASTRO? <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Blueboar-20240927202800-Praemonitus-20240924173200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-19" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Oh, okay. Well I suppose it's more of a guideline then. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Praemonitus" title="User:Praemonitus">Praemonitus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Praemonitus" title="User talk:Praemonitus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Praemonitus-20240928020400-Blueboar-20240927202800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-20" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Quick question..... this is being presented by a Wikiproject? <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Astronomy/Manual_of_Style">I assume there's more than just four people at the project</a> and that this is currently the norm for these type of pages? <a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a>🍁 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Moxy-20240928023400-Praemonitus-20240928020400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:34, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-21" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>All I was asking for was the procedure. It is in regards to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AST" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AST">WP:AST</a>. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Praemonitus" title="User:Praemonitus">Praemonitus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Praemonitus" title="User talk:Praemonitus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Praemonitus-20240928045100-Moxy-20240928023400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:51, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-22" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> It is relatively uncontroversial for WikiProjects to develop suggestions for article content and to label it as an essay, and does not require a formal RfC and encyclopedia-wide consensus; for a recent example see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Numbers/Guidelines" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Numbers/Guidelines">Wikipedia:WikiProject Numbers/Guidelines</a>. Making something a binding guideline on the whole encyclopedia is a much bigger thing, and probably would require buy-in from a much wider pool of editors through a formal RfC advertised at the Village Pump etc. If you are going to call it a Manual of Style it should be limited purely to style and not content or referencing, and be more phrased as clear formatting rules than as vague "you should consider this kind of source for this kind of content" suggestions. Also, I tend to think that suggestions like "The accuracy of the image should be confirmed by an astronomy expert" go far beyond usual Wikipedia norms where we rely on verifiability through sourcing rather than credentials and personal expertise. —<a href="/wiki/User:David_Eppstein" title="User:David Eppstein">David Eppstein</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Eppstein" title="User talk:David Eppstein">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-David_Eppstein-20240928060900-Proposed_astronomy_MoS" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-23" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Thank you, David. <a href="/wiki/User:Praemonitus" title="User:Praemonitus">Praemonitus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Praemonitus" title="User talk:Praemonitus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Praemonitus-20240928143800-David_Eppstein-20240928060900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-24" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Praemonitus" title="User:Praemonitus">Praemonitus</a>: You shouldn't refer to something like this as a "guideline" unless and until it has been through the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROPOSAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROPOSAL">WP:PROPOSAL</a> process (usually at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VPPOL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VPPOL">WP:VPPOL</a> these days). This usually entails significant revision after community input, because <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Writing_policy_is_hard" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Writing policy is hard">WP:Writing policy is hard</a>. Something like this is (presently) a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROJPAGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROJPAGE">WP:PROJPAGE</a> essay, and should be tagged as such, with <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_style_advice" title="Template:WikiProject style advice">WikiProject style advice</a>}}</code> or if so much of it isn't style matters then <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_advice" title="Template:WikiProject advice">WikiProject advice</a>}}</code>. And it should be at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Astronomy/Style_advice" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Astronomy/Style advice">Wikipedia:WikiProject Astronomy/Style advice</a> since it is not part of the MoS. If a proposal process were successful, it would move to WP:Manual of Style/Astronomy and take shortcuts like MOS:ASTRO. Please do not pre-emptively create "MOS:..." shortcuts to things that are not part of the MoS guidelines; this just confuses people and leads to conflicts (especially people claiming that some four-author page with no community buy-in has the force of a guideline when it does not). — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241026020100-David_Eppstein-20240928060900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-25" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Thank you for your input, SMcCandlish. <a href="/wiki/User:Praemonitus" title="User:Praemonitus">Praemonitus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Praemonitus" title="User talk:Praemonitus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Praemonitus-20241026022800-SMcCandlish-20241026020100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:28, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-26" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(5)"><h2 id="9×19mm_Parabellum" data-mw-thread-id="h-9×19mm_Parabellum-20240928201200">9×19mm Parabellum</h2><span id='ooui-php-237' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241026005000-SamuelRiv-20241016231100">28 days ago</a>4 comments4 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-5 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-5"> Should this be capped? All the best: <a href="/wiki/User:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User:Rich Farmbrough">Rich</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User talk:Rich Farmbrough">Farmbrough</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Rich_Farmbrough-20240928201200-9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a>.<span id="ooui-php-27" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It was apparently registered as a trade mark (not an RS but see <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/origin-of-the-use-of-parabellum-term/14340">here</a>) which would be good reason to cap. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Parabellum+is&year_start=1900&year_end=2019&case_insensitive=true&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3">Ngrams</a> indicate some mixed usage but not enough to argue lowercase, even though it is probably passing into lowercase usage. <a href="/wiki/User:Cinderella157" title="User:Cinderella157">Cinderella157</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cinderella157" title="User talk:Cinderella157">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Cinderella157-20240929005000-Rich_Farmbrough-20240928201200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:50, 29 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-28" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Gonna attempt to contribute something, for lack of input, based on cursory background reading of cartridges in the past:</dd> <dd>If "Parabellum"'s popularity is equivalent to lowercase, then perhaps the same can be argued for "Winchester" or even "NATO" (or "Nato" or "nato", I've seen in forums?) -- does that make any sense? (I'd say the only reason "Winchester" always stays capitalized is that it's already a proper name in English, and then seeing "Nato" might be more about avoiding online shouty-case.) You could make a better claim that this is something like a <a href="/wiki/Genericized_trademark" class="mw-redirect" title="Genericized trademark">genericized trademark</a> if the generic term "parabellum" were applied to cartridges other than the specific original 9x19mm pistol cartridge (or the other specific Parabellum cartridges) (and not simply identical/compatible cartridges by different manufacturers). <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRiv" title="User:SamuelRiv">SamuelRiv</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRiv" title="User talk:SamuelRiv">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SamuelRiv-20241016231100-Cinderella157-20240929005000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-29" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If it's a trademark (and not legally declared, across multiple major pertinent jurisdictions, to have become genericized, like "asprin"), then it takes capitalization, per <a href="/wiki/MOS:TM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TM">MOS:TM</a>, at least when used for the subject of the trademark. The term "genericized trademark" actually has a specific legal meaning and is frequently misused; it does not mean "sometimes used by random people as a stand-in for a class of products instead of a specific famous one, or used metaphorically and sometimes with the spelling changed"; "Kool-Aid" and "Band-Aid" are not genericized trademarks, no matter how often someone might write "Don't drink the koolaid" or "That solution would just be a bandaid". SamuelRiv's point is reasonable about "parabellum" sometimes being used for aftermarket products, to mean basically "Parabellum-compatible" or "Parabellum-equivalent" or less flatteringly "Parabellum-knockoff", but that usage is probably too imprecise and marketing-PoV for WP to be using in the first place.As for "Nato", that style was originated by some news publishers with a strange "dumb it down" house style of always writing acronyms pronounced like words (instead of spelled out) as if they are words and not acronyms/initialisms (they do "MI5" and "FBI", but "Unicef" and "Nasa", and also farcically do "Aids" in reference to the disease, despite it not being a proper name and other diseases not being capitalized - they don't write "Tuberculosis" or "Myeloma"). That this silly and confusing and inconsistent style has spread to forums and social media, which essentially have no style norms other than idiosyncratic senses of expediency, is not surprising, but it's not related to the "Parabellum" question, or to WP style (we do "AIDS" and "UNICEF", per <a href="/wiki/MOS:ACRO" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ACRO">MOS:ACRO</a>). — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241026005000-SamuelRiv-20241016231100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-30" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(6)"><h2 id="The_insert_box_beneath_the_edit_window" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_insert_box_beneath_the_edit_window-20241007195400">The insert box beneath the edit window</h2><span id='ooui-php-238' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241026005200-NebY-20241007212200">28 days ago</a>4 comments3 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-6 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-6"> In the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOS#Common_mathematical_symbols" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOS">Common mathematical symbols</a> section, we suggest using <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">the insert box beneath the edit window</q>, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">the edit toolbox under the edit window</q>, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">in the "Math and logic" section of the edit toolbox</q>, and <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">in the "Insert" section of the edit toolbox</q>, which many editors no longer have, or not usually. Assuming it's still present for enough editors to be worth mentioning, can we qualify that briefly so as not to leave many editors lost and confused? <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NebY" title="User talk:NebY">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-NebY-20241007195400-The_insert_box_beneath_the_edit_window" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-31" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a>: This is the "charinsert" gadget, which is enabled by default for all users and all skins, and if people no longer have it, they've been to <a href="/wiki/Special:Preferences" title="Special:Preferences">Preferences</a> → <a href="/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets" title="Special:Preferences">Gadgets</a> and disabled the "<abbr title="Enabled for everyone by default.">(D)</abbr> <a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/extension:CharInsert" class="extiw" title="mw:extension:CharInsert">CharInsert</a>: add a toolbar under the edit window for quickly inserting wiki markup and special characters (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VPT">troubles?</a>)" option. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64">Redrose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Redrose64-20241007210200-NebY-20241007195400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-32" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I have that gadget enabled. <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NebY" title="User talk:NebY">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-NebY-20241007212200-Redrose64-20241007210200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:22, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-33" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>What about the mobile app users? I would assume this gadget is not available to them. Do they have some equivalent? It does seem that this text should probably be adjusted to account for different user-experience paths. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241026005200-NebY-20241007212200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-34" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(7)"><h2 id="Subject_about_Amazigh-related_articles." data-mw-thread-id="h-Subject_about_Amazigh-related_articles.-20241009133100">Subject about Amazigh-related articles.</h2><span id='ooui-php-239' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241026003600-Gawaon-20241010080200">28 days ago</a>9 comments5 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-7 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-7"> I have been encountering ongoing issues with <a href="/wiki/User:Skitash" title="User:Skitash">User:Skitash</a>, while I respect some of the work they have done on certain pages, they appear to have a significant bias when it comes to articles related to the Amazigh/Berber ethnic group.The first issue involves multiple pages specific to Berber history, such as <a href="/wiki/Maghrawa" title="Maghrawa">Maghrawa</a> and <a href="/wiki/Banu_Ifran" title="Banu Ifran">Banu Ifran</a>. When I added the language tag in the lead per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEADLANG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEADLANG">WP:LEADLANG</a> for Tamazight/Berber, my edits were reverted by User I made sure to retain the foreign language , which shouldnt even be done, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FORLANG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FORLANG">WP:FORLANG</a>, in Arabic, even though it was uncited. <a href="/wiki/User:Skitash" title="User:Skitash">User:Skitash</a> justified their reversion of the Tamazight language inclusion by citing <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research" title="Wikipedia:No original research">Wikipedia:No original research</a>, despite the fact that the word "Banu Ifran" was cited twice for its tamazigh translation. The reason given was that the writing system (Neo-Tifinagh) "wasn’t used back then." However, the uncited Arabic text was allowed to remain. I need clarification: Are we prohibited from adding the lead language just because the writing system was different at the time, while keeping uncited Arabic text even though it falls under <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FORLANG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FORLANG">WP:FORLANG</a>? Or should both be removed entirely? Im reaching out as i would prefer to avoid an edit war. The second issue pertains to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">Wikipedia:Neutral point of view</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style</a>. On the page for <a href="/wiki/Berberism" title="Berberism">Berberism</a>, User introduced language that seemed biased, stating that the movement is closely tied to <a href="/wiki/Anti-Arab_racism" title="Anti-Arab racism">Anti-Arab racism</a>. This was presented in a way that gave it undue weight, appearing twice on the page—once within the larger text and once in the first section on Algeria—without proper citation for the upper part. I removed the uper part, even though i believe both fully break <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">Wikipedia:Neutral point of view</a> , but removed the upper one as it not only breaks such but also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research" title="Wikipedia:No original research">Wikipedia:No original research</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability" title="Wikipedia:Verifiability">Wikipedia:Verifiability</a> but it was reverted by him. I want to better understand the situation, whether I made an error in removing it or if Skitash’s edits were indeed problematic. The third issue relates to <a href="/w/index.php?title=Karima_Gouit&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Karima Gouit (page does not exist)">Karima Gouit</a> and broader pages about <a href="/wiki/Berbers" title="Berbers">Berbers</a>. My understanding of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEADLANG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEADLANG">Wikipedia:LEADLANG</a>, particularly for ethnic groups with their own language and script, supports the inclusion of Neo-Tifinagh for Tamazight. However, Arabic text is used twice on these pages, while the Latinized form of Amazigh appears only once and Neo-Tifinagh is entirely absent. I need confirmation: Is it permissible to add Neo-Tifinagh, even if cited? And what about the use of Arabic, which is not the ethnic language of these ethnic groups? Returning to the issue of <a href="/w/index.php?title=Karima_Gouit&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Karima Gouit (page does not exist)">Karima Gouit</a>, she is an Amazigh singer, as indicated by her public profiles outside of her wikipedia page that is fully outdated, songs, interviews, and her latest acting role. She is also a famous activist for the Amazigh cause. Skitash reverted the addition of her name in Tamazight, despite allowing the Arabic version to remain. This is in addition to the broader debate over whether to include her Berber ancestry, which two other editors argued against citing <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Ethnicity_is_not_notable" title="Wikipedia:Ethnicity is not notable">Wikipedia:Ethnicity is not notable</a> enough for intro section, suggesting that it should only be included in the body with proper citations. Despite these discussions on the talk page, Skitash has shown little interest in further conversation even when he was the one behind the removal of the edits, and the dialogue is now largely between me and two other editors who were not initially part of the revision. But as it went on, he decided to put the page under deletion, and trying to place every "old" citation not even related to the subject as "poorly cited", I have since escalated the matter to the dispute noticeboard, but Skitash responded by filing a report against me at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/YassinRi" title="Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/YassinRi">Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/YassinRi</a> suddenly with questionable cause, while he also has another dispute with another editor relating to inclusion of berbers in their own topics. which is outside the scope of this question, apologies but just wanted to point this out..For Karima Gouit’s page, should her name translation in her native language be included or not? And in terms of dealing with Skitash, is there a more effective way to communicate with them directly, rather than constantly involving third parties in disputes regarding Berber-related topics since he clearly oppose it? <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-TahaKahi-20241009133100-Subject_about_Amazigh-related_articles." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:31, 9 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-35" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>While you do bring up some specific style issues, I get the sense that this is mostly a content dispute. I wonder if you could cut this down to those issues where you really need help interpreting the MOS, and bring up the other issues in some other forum — see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution">Wikipedia:Dispute resolution</a> for help in finding such. --<a href="/wiki/User:Trovatore" title="User:Trovatore">Trovatore</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Trovatore" title="User talk:Trovatore">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Trovatore-20241009180800-TahaKahi-20241009133100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-36" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I have brought it up in the Dispute resolution, it met being locked as the person that continues to try and block the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEADLANG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEADLANG">Wikipedia:LEADLANG</a> decided to put it under deletion as i mentioned earlier instead of having a conversation and trying to reach a resolution, this extented to him ignoring yet another person, who made a dispute resolution on him for yet the same subject, his disliking of anything relating to Berbers/Amazighs to be included in Berber/Amazigh related subjects, here: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Algeria_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard">Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Algeria discussion</a> , instead, the same person took it even further and decided to ignore it, as seen in his response to the alert made in his page when he deleted it: <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Skitash&diff=prev&oldid=1250286001">[1]</a>.</dd> <dd>I understand this matter may not reach a conclusion under MOS, but I would like clarification on one point: Can we establish a decision regarding the inclusion of <a href="/wiki/Berber_languages" title="Berber languages">Berber languages</a> (Tamazight), which is widely spoken in North Africa, especially in Algeria and Morocco, for subjects related to their history and culture? For historical figures like <a href="/wiki/Kahina" title="Kahina">Kahina</a> or <a href="/wiki/Kusaila" title="Kusaila">Kusaila</a>, who are clearly Berber and not Arab or even Muslim. should they have Tamazight and its neo-script or latinized form included in their Wikipedia intros, per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEADLANG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEADLANG">Wikipedia:LEADLANG</a>? would this would apply to historical figures, kingdoms, Amazigh activists, and related topics.A clear decision on this would help prevent further edit wars. From what I've seen, other language versions of Wikipedia include Tamazight per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEADLANG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEADLANG">Wikipedia:LEADLANG</a>, but this issue persists only in the English version. It is consistently being contested by two individuals with vague reasoning, as I mentioned earlier. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-TahaKahi-20241009183700-Trovatore-20241009180800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-37" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>What other projects do or don't do is neither here nor there. If you have a specific question regarding a specific edit, then you use the article's talk page and make your case there. Forum shopping, casting aspersions ad misrepresenting the sources to push a POV (like you did) is not acceptable. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-M.Bitton-20241009184400-TahaKahi-20241009133100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-38" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I will refer to read what I said at the start of my reply which details how this didn't work, as for why this exist, its because I was referred to make one from the dispute resolution from 2 day ago. And also i would refer to your behavior in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#c-M.Bitton-20241009175700-TahaKahi-20241009175000" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard">Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#c-M.Bitton-20241009175700-TahaKahi-20241009175000</a> <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-TahaKahi-20241009185000-M.Bitton-20241009184400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-39" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Considering that this has already landed at the AN, I don't think there's anything to be done here. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241010073700-TahaKahi-20241009185000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:37, 10 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-40" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The administrator noticeboard of our topic is chaotic at the moment, as many people are involved. It seems that a resolution may not be reached, as the discussion has shifted away from the main topic to something else. I don't know the exact path to take here? I was told to see the issue with Dispute resolution, then MOS and with AN i moved back and forth. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-TahaKahi-20241010075000-Gawaon-20241010073700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-41" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If it's not resolved there, it certainly won't be resolved here. This page is for discussions about improvements to the MOS, and your issue seems largely unrelated to that. You'll have to resolve it either at the talk pages of the articles in question or at the AN. Good luck. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241010080200-TahaKahi-20241010075000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:02, 10 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-42" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a>: I would add that these pages seem comparatively obscure, so resolution at the talk page of one or another of them seems unlikely, especially if it's just you and someone else arguing back and forth and reverting each other, but not coming to agreement on sources. The first issue you mentioned sounds like a source reliability dispute, and is something for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RSN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RSN">WP:RSN</a>. The second seems like a matter for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOVN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOVN">WP:NPOVN</a>. The third: Well, <a href="/w/index.php?title=Karima_Gouit&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Karima Gouit (page does not exist)">Karima Gouit</a> is a red link, so I'm not entirely sure what this is about. As a general matter, it is normal and expected for an ethnic group's name for itself (or some topic that pertains especially to that group) in its own language(s) and script(s) to be represented in the lead, within reason (though sometimes in a footnote). <a href="/wiki/Tamazight" class="mw-redirect" title="Tamazight">Tamazight</a> is a language family (or sometimes used more narrowly for a subfamily); <a href="/wiki/Neo-Tifinagh" class="mw-redirect" title="Neo-Tifinagh">Neo-Tifinagh</a> is a modern standardized script (though not universally adopted) for writing those languages. If the multiple Tamazight languages are going to produce multiple distinct renditions of a name in N-T, then that will be excessive and it should all go in a footnote, especially if non-Neo versions in historical Tifinagh are also included (discouraged; that's better for an "Etymology" or "History" section). As for Arabic, it is the dominant language/script in much of the pertinent region, so is also often going to be reasonable to represent in Berber-related topics, at least broad/general ones; but if a footnote is used, then Arabic should also go in the footnote.I'm only getting your side of the story, but it seems that you might be meeting anti-Neo-Tifinagh or anti-Tamazight (or even anti-Berber) PoV pushing, which is likely a matter for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOVN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOVN">WP:NPOVN</a> again. If there's a really clear <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOR">WP:NOR</a> problem happening that is distinctly NOR more than NPOV or V/RS, then that particular matter might be better brought up at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NORN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NORN">WP:NORN</a>. I would advise trying to resolve one issue at a time, not starting 2 or 3 noticeboard threads. But anyway, virtually none of this is really an MoS matter, except trivially and incidentally. My quick trawl through various articles related to the Berber people and languages shows a great deal of PoV-laden and otherwise unencyclopedic language, so a more focused cleanup effort needs to be engineered, perhaps through asking for help at any of these noticeboards in the course of trying to resolve issues thereby, and by asking for help at any of the pertinent wikiprojects listed in the wikiproject banner shell at the top of <a href="/wiki/Talk:Berbers" title="Talk:Berbers">Talk:Berbers</a> (Berbers, Ethnic groups, Africa and pertinent national taskforces/workgroups thereof, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, and Algeria; if it's a language-specific matter, maybe also Linguistics, and Languages; maybe also Guild of Copyeditors, though they are swamped). — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241026003600-Gawaon-20241010080200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-43" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(8)"><h2 id="Examples_to_clarify_MOS:AFFIXDASH_vs_MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES_(especially_re:_combining_forms)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Examples_to_clarify_MOS:AFFIXDASH_vs_MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES_(especially_re:_combi-20241011082500">Examples to clarify MOS:AFFIXDASH vs MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES (especially re: combining forms)</h2><span id='ooui-php-240' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Lewisguile-20241028081300-Gawaon-20241027095300">26 days ago</a>30 comments7 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-8 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-8"> Good morning, In editing an article, I discovered an issue I realised isn't very clear from the existing examples given in <a href="/wiki/MOS:AFFIXDASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:AFFIXDASH">MOS:AFFIXDASH</a> and <a href="/wiki/MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES">MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES</a>, and this recalled an earlier debate I'm still unsure about. The multi-compound in question was "Afro-Peruvian-American" on the page <a href="/wiki/Afro%E2%80%93Latin_Americans" title="Afro–Latin Americans">Afro–Latin Americans</a>. Now, this could probably just be rendered "Afro-Peruvian American" to avoid the issue altogether, but I thought it best to find out what's actually right and to get a clarifying example or two on here if we can, to settle future debates. Over at <a href="/wiki/Afro%E2%80%93Puerto_Ricans" title="Afro–Puerto Ricans">Afro–Puerto Ricans</a>, I was told the en dash is correct in that title page, even though "Afro-" is a combining word rather than a non-standalone prefix. This was a little confusing, because <a href="/wiki/MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES">MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES</a> gives a similar example where this isn't the case specifically because of a combining form: "Wrong: Franco–British rivalry; Franco- is a combining form, not an independent word, so use a hyphen: Franco-British rivalry." Obviously, "British rivalry" isn't an open compound, so I recognise this example may not be wholly applicable, but it seems to me that the article is calling out combining forms as different to standard affixes. If true, the combining form might essentially make "Afro-Puerto Rican" a single thing, meaning you would only use the en dash if you added a prefix to that (such as for "anti–Afro-Puerto Rican"). (Merriam-Webster suggests they're slightly different things too: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/spelling-using-compound-words-guide/prefixed-suffixed-and-combining-form-compounds">https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/spelling-using-compound-words-guide/prefixed-suffixed-and-combining-form-compounds</a>.) The argument given against that view was essentially that <a href="/wiki/MOS:AFFIXDASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:AFFIXDASH">MOS:AFFIXDASH</a> always applies, even for combining forms, and thus because "Latin America" is an open compound, the "Afro-" should be joined with an en dash. I'm still not wholly sure if that's right, simply because all the examples under <a href="/wiki/MOS:AFFIXDASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:AFFIXDASH">MOS:AFFIXDASH</a> use prefixes and suffixes which are non-standalone (i.e., non-combining forms), and the section doesn't seem to comment specifically on combining forms. And "Afro-" like "Franco-" seems to me to be subtly different to a prefix like "trans-", "pre-" or "post-". So, in short: if "Afro-Latin Americans" and "Afro-Puerto Ricans" are correct, then can we mention that <a href="/wiki/MOS:AFFIXDASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:AFFIXDASH">MOS:AFFIXDASH</a> doesn't apply to combining forms? And if they're wrong, and we should use "Afro–Latin Americans" and "Afro–Puerto Ricans", can we get some examples at <a href="/wiki/MOS:AFFIXDASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:AFFIXDASH">MOS:AFFIXDASH</a> that use combining words too? That would neatly clarify the situation without too much extra verbiage. And finally, given the answer to the above, should I also change "Afro-Peruvian-American" to "Afro-Peruvian–American" or "Afro-Peruvian American" (or even "Afro–Peruvian-American"/"Afro–Peruvian American")? I hope this makes sense! (I care a little bit too much about punctuation, it seems.) <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241011082500-Examples_to_clarify_MOS:AFFIXDASH_vs_MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES_(especially_re:_combi" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-44" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Any thoughts on this? I archived my other (settled) query so this one is more visible. <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241014080900-Lewisguile-20241011082500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:09, 14 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-45" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a>: "<a href="/wiki/Afro%E2%80%93Puerto_Ricans" title="Afro–Puerto Ricans">Afro–Puerto Ricans</a>" with an en dash is wrong; the quite specific rule is that combining forms (typically prefixes) take a hyphen. This particular case is going to be potentially confusing to someone somewhere, regardless what kind of horizontal puctuator is used, because the prefix is being attached to a two-word proper name that, being a proper name, does not take internal hyphenation. "Franco-Austrian" doesn't have that problem, but "Russo-Sri Lankan" would, and it would be better the rephrase when practical, e.g. in "Russia–Sri Lanka trade relations" or "trade relations between Russia and Sri Lanka". For "Afro-Puerto Ricans", an alternative like "Puerto Ricans of African descent" might be awkward sometimes but preferable in others. Just because some such terms are conventional, as in "Afro-Cuban" and "Afro-Brazilian", doesn't mean that every possible construction of this sort is mandatory to use. (And "Afro-American" has fallen into explicit disuse.) PS: On the last question, it would be "Afro-Peruvian-American" as an adjective ("an Afro-Peruvian-American singer"), but "Afro-Peruvian American" as a noun phrase. An en dash is not used at all in such a construction, even a shorter one. No one is "Japanese–British". Such a string indicates a relationship (be it collaborative or conflicting) between Japan and Britain as nations, cultures, geographic regions, or governments. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241026000300-Lewisguile-20241014080900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-46" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>That was my belief, too, but when I raised it over at the page now named <a href="/wiki/Afro%E2%80%93Puerto_Ricans" title="Afro–Puerto Ricans">Afro–Puerto Ricans</a>, I faced vigorous disagreement. I have updated the examples and the guidance text here. Please let me know what you think?</dd> <dd>Similarly, this means we probably need to rename the pages which were recently changed to have an en-dash, including <a href="/wiki/Afro%E2%80%93Latin_Americans" title="Afro–Latin Americans">Afro–Latin Americans</a> and a few others? But if others are happy with my recent tweaks to the <a href="/wiki/MOS:AFFIXDASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:AFFIXDASH">MOS:AFFIXDASH</a> section, then I should be able to request a move on those with a link back here now it's clearer. <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241026065600-SMcCandlish-20241026000300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-47" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Only if the person is an American of African and Peruvian heritage, rather than someone with all three contemporary nationalities. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-MapReader-20241026133000-SMcCandlish-20241026000300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-48" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Agreed. All three heritages together would presumably be "African–Peruvian–American", since they're all equal? Probably also a good example to include. <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241026134600-MapReader-20241026133000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-49" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I must admit I don't really get the logic behind the new rule now added to the MOS. If "ex–prime minister" is correct, why is "Afro–Puerto Rican" wrong? The text talks about "Combining forms" but what's that and why is "Afro-" more combining than "ex-"? Right now I would have no idea how to distinguish a combining prefix from a non-combining one (if there's such a thing, which I doubt). <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026082300-Lewisguile-20241011082500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:23, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-50" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>According to the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/HyphensEnDashesEmDashes.html">Chicago Manual of Style</a>, a combining form + open compound gets an en dash.</dd> <dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237805129">.mw-parser-output .talkquote{color:var(--color-base,#202122);background-color:#eaf8f4;border-left:3px solid #008560;padding:0 .8em;margin:0}.mw-parser-output .talkquote-by,.mw-parser-output .talkquote-source{margin-left:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .skin-vector-2022 .talkquote>:last-child{padding-bottom:0}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}</style><blockquote class="talkquote">the word something ... is a combining form that connects to other words with a hyphen, as in "twenty-something years old." When joined to the open compound "two hundred," it gets an en dash in Chicago style</blockquote></dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">I boxed up two hundred–something widgets.</q> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241026084500-Lewisguile-20241011082500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:45, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-51" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>So I find the carve-out added to MOS for combining forms needless. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241026085000-Hyphenation_Expert-20241026084500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-52" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Right, you don't agree with the change and I can't agree with it either simply because I don't understand it. So we have no consensus here and I'll revert the change until consensus is reached. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026085800-Hyphenation_Expert-20241026085000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-53" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The Chicago MOS is using "combining form" in a manner that isn't consistent with how we've used it earlier under <a href="/wiki/MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES">MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES</a>. As per the examples under Dual Nationalities, the difference is that "Franco-" (as explained above) is a combining form of "France", just as "Afro-" is. "Ex-" isn't a combining form. The specific overrides the general, so you don't split the combining form with an en dash.</dd> <dd>Combining forms like "Afro-", "Franco-" and "Russo-" are fundamentally different to affixes like "ex-", "post-", "pre-", etc. I'm not sure how to best explain because it seems self-evident to me, but I'll try. The former can be rendered as standalone words which don't need hanging hyphens, whereas the latter usually can't because they're just modifiers; their purpose is to modify but not really to exist on their own. (Yes, in colloquial usage we might say "my ex[-partner]", "I'm pro[-this] or "I'm anti[-that]", but we're always implying another word there that those affixes modify. "France" doesn't have to do that.)</dd> <dd>"Ex–prime minister" is different because "ex-" isn't a combining form and "prime minister" is a compound with a space. "Puerto Rican" is a compound with a space but "Afro-" is a combining form. Hence, the specific rule overrides the general rule. <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241026094300-Hyphenation_Expert-20241026084500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:43, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-54" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I think your explanation is a bit confused. Neither "Afro", "Franco" nor "post" (in that sense), "pre" can be used in their own. They are all only usable as prefix. But I suppose what you meant is that "Afro-", "Franco-" and "Russo-" are "combining forms" of words that can be used on their own (African, French, and Russian). Granted that, where exactly in CMOS does it say that these combining forms always take a hyphen instead of an en dash? If they have such a rule, I wasn't able to find it. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026102300-Lewisguile-20241026094300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:23, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-55" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It's in <a href="/wiki/MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES">MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES</a>. For "Franco-British", it calls combining forms out as exceptions. As for the rest: yes, that's what I was trying to say! Thanks for clarifying. <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241026104600-Gawaon-20241026102300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-56" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>However, "Franco-British rivalry" takes a hyphen because both parts are just one word. "Franco–British" is just as incorrect as "ex–wife" would be. But if "ex–prime minister" is correct, why should "Afro–Latin American" be wrong? It still doesn't make sense to me, and I think unless there is precedent in major style guides (preferably several of them) we should not add this complication and leave <a href="/wiki/MOS:AFFIXDASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:AFFIXDASH">MOS:AFFIXDASH</a> as it is. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026110300-Lewisguile-20241026104600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-57" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>"Franco–British rivalry" isn't called out as incorrect because they're both one word; it's called out as incorrect specifically because of the combining form. I.e., the combing form is an exception.</dd> <dd>Prime minister doesn't include a combining form, so "ex–prime minister" is fine. <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241026140300-Gawaon-20241026110300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-58" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>See below for my reply. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026175500-Lewisguile-20241026140300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-59" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd>I'm very surprised with SMcCandlish's comment that says "Afro–Puerto Ricans" is incorrect, but I don't see a clear consensus at this point. It looks like Gawaon and Hyphenation Expert are not agreeing with that, and Hyphenation Expert said the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/HyphensEnDashesEmDashes.html">CMOS supports an en dash</a> (although I haven't found exactly where – can someone provide an exact quote?). I note that SMcCandlish didn't comment in the RM at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Afro%E2%80%93Puerto_Ricans#Requested_move_7_August_2024" title="Talk:Afro–Puerto Ricans">Talk:Afro–Puerto Ricans#Requested move 7 August 2024</a>. So far, I don't see an indication of a consensus to overturn that. (I'm also surprised with the Lewisguile assertion that "ex-" is not a combining form.) —⁠ ⁠<a href="/wiki/User:BarrelProof" title="User:BarrelProof">BarrelProof</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BarrelProof" title="User talk:BarrelProof">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-BarrelProof-20241026173000-Lewisguile-20241011082500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-60" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Regarding CMOS, I haven't been able to find anything there that would carve out an exception for "combining forms" to be treated differently from other prefixes (that is, they suggest treating "Afro-" exactly as "pre-" for all I know). I was unable to find any rule to the contrary and my request for a reference has gone unanswered so far. Regarding the reference to <a href="/wiki/MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES">MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES</a>, that's a total red herring, since that section simply does not discuss the use of affixes with open compounds (compounds that themselves include a space). <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026175200-BarrelProof-20241026173000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-61" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I think you and Hyphenation Expert are both saying "Afro-" is the same as "pre-" (or "ex-"), suggesting "Afro–Puerto Ricans", "pre–World War II" and "ex–prime minister". And Hyphenation Expert is saying the CMOS agrees. But this seems to differ from SMcCandlish's view. —⁠ ⁠<a href="/wiki/User:BarrelProof" title="User:BarrelProof">BarrelProof</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BarrelProof" title="User talk:BarrelProof">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-BarrelProof-20241026181100-Gawaon-20241026175200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-62" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If there's no consensus on what the right answer is, that at least suggests we need clarity.</dd> <dd>I'm not opposed to leaving Afro–Puerto Rican as it is (in my mind, we already discussed that and there wasn't support for a hyphen instead of an en dash), but I'd rather the examples in MOS make it clear what should happen here so we don't run into the same problem further down the line.</dd> <dd>So if my suggestions above weren't helpful (and the text has been reverted, so I assume they weren't), can we agree some text that is helpful and which affirms the status quo? E.g.: <ul><li>Afro–Puerto Rican</li> <li>Wrong: Afro-Puerto Rican</li></ul></dd> <dd>My concern isn't to be nitpicky or difficult here. I just really think we need clear and unambiguous guidance so that when I see something like "Afro-Peruvian American", I know whether I'm using an en dash, hyphen, etc. <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241026190700-BarrelProof-20241026181100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:07, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-63" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Sure, adding "Afro–Puerto Rican" as another example to MOS:AFFIXDASH would be fine with me. "Afro-Peruvian American" seems a different case, however, since I suppose it means "American of <a href="/wiki/Afro-Peruvian" class="mw-redirect" title="Afro-Peruvian">Afro-Peruvian</a>" descent? So in that case, "Afro-" refers only to "Peruvian" rather than to "Peruvian American", hence the hyphen is correct. (In contrast, an Afro–Puerto Rican is not a Rican of Afro-Puerto descent, as the use of a hyphen would suggest.) <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026201700-Lewisguile-20241026190700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-64" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I think this depends on whether the combination of Afro, Peruvian and American is an adjective or a noun. I think a person could be "an Afro-Peruvian-American scientist", but a group of people who are Americans of Afro-Peruvian descent would be "Afro-Peruvian Americans". —⁠ ⁠<a href="/wiki/User:BarrelProof" title="User:BarrelProof">BarrelProof</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BarrelProof" title="User talk:BarrelProof">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-BarrelProof-20241026203200-Gawaon-20241026201700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-65" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I agree with these.</dd> <dd>Probably the more seamless way to add to the MOS is not with a new "Afro-" example, but next to the existing "Franco-" example. I.e., following Franco-British rivalry with a note that, if used with an open compound, it's Franco–South Korean rivalry again, not Franco-South Korean rivalry. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241026210400-BarrelProof-20241026203200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-66" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>But we're talking about <a href="/wiki/MOS:AFFIXDASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:AFFIXDASH">MOS:AFFIXDASH</a>, while the "Franco-" example is in <a href="/wiki/MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES">MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026215800-Hyphenation_Expert-20241026210400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-67" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>And this issue logically belongs into AFFIXDASH, whose core rule (section header) says: "Instead of a hyphen, use an en dash when applying a prefix or suffix to a compound that itself includes a space, dash or hyphen" (emphasis added). While DUALNATIONALITIES also calls for en dashes (exceptions excepted), it does so for unrelated reasons – which has contributed to the confusion here, I think. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026220500-Hyphenation_Expert-20241026210400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-68" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I agree it should go in AFFIXDASH. I'd be happy adding a more complex example like Afro-Peruvian American too, for ultimate clarity. Though that one likely needs more space than Afro–Puerto Rican. Maybe the former should come at the end of that section, since it covers both AFFIXDASH and an example, as in DUALNATIONALITIES, where the combining form makes the first part one word, so it's trickier. If it's at the end, the extended text doesn't disrupt the other examples. <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241026223000-Gawaon-20241026220500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-69" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I've added "Afro–Puerto Rican" as another example to AFFIXDASH. "Afro-Peruvian American" doesn't belong there (except possibly as a negative example), since it doesn't have a dash. Conceivably it could go into DUALNATIONALITIES, but as it seems a straightforward application of the rules that are already there, I don't think it's needed. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241027095300-Lewisguile-20241026223000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:53, 27 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-70" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Thanks. I meant as a negative example in the case of "Afro-Peruvian American", since I can see people defaulting to "Afro–Peruvian American". But it's admittedly much rarer than "Afro–Puerto Rican" or "Afro–Latin American", so we can always cross that bridge when we get to it. <a href="/wiki/User:Lewisguile" title="User:Lewisguile">Lewisguile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lewisguile" title="User talk:Lewisguile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Lewisguile-20241028081300-Gawaon-20241027095300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-71" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> Relatedly, I recently ran into an editor who refused to believe that "Korean-American" (in adjectival form) could be a case of <a href="/wiki/MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES">MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES</a>, insisting instead that because there was no country named Korea that the "Korean-" part of this must be an ethnicity rather than a nationality. Which was incorrect, as in this case "Korean-" was intended as a shorthand for South Korean, which perhaps should have been spelled out more explicitly. But in cases like this where one of the nations has a space in the name, should we still hyphenate it as "South Korean-American" or do we need to spell it out, for instance as "South Korean and American"? —<a href="/wiki/User:David_Eppstein" title="User:David Eppstein">David Eppstein</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Eppstein" title="User talk:David Eppstein">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-David_Eppstein-20241026191900-Examples_to_clarify_MOS:AFFIXDASH_vs_MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES_(especially_re:_combi" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-72" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Both "South Korean–American" with an en dash en and "South Korean and American" are surely fine. But don't spell it as "South Korean-American" since that would suggest that "South" modifies "Korean-American" rather than just "Korean". <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241026202000-David_Eppstein-20241026191900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-73" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(9)"><h2 id='"Toponomy",_"Etymology",_or_"Name"' data-mw-thread-id='h-"Toponomy",_"Etymology",_or_"Name"-20241016014500'>"Toponomy", "Etymology", or "Name"</h2><span id='ooui-php-241' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241025234700-Nikkimaria-20241016014800">28 days ago</a>4 comments3 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-9 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-9"> Hello, I'm a new user to Wikipedia and would like some clarification on an inconsistency I've noticed. For articles on countries, cities, regions, & other such places, it's typical that the first section after the introductory paragraphs is dedicated to the meaning & origins of the place's name. However, the title of this section varies from article to article. As three major examples, the article for <a href="/wiki/England#Toponymy" title="England">England</a> labels its first section as "Toponomy", the article for <a href="/wiki/Scotland#Etymology" title="Scotland">Scotland</a> labels it as "Etymology", and the article for <a href="/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland#Name" title="Republic of Ireland">Ireland</a> labels it as "Name". Valid arguments can be made in favor of all 3 styles. <a href="/wiki/Toponymy" title="Toponymy">Toponymy</a> is the most specific & accurate term; <a href="/wiki/Etymology" title="Etymology">Etymology</a> is consistent with articles on non-location subjects; <a href="/wiki/Name" title="Name">Name</a> is the simplest option. Should a specific term be favored? Which one should it be and why? Or is it up to individual editors' discretion? <a href="/wiki/User:GenderBiohazard" title="User:GenderBiohazard">GenderBiohazard</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GenderBiohazard" title="User talk:GenderBiohazard">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-GenderBiohazard-20241016014500-%22Toponomy%22,_%22Etymology%22,_or_%22Name%22" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:45, 16 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-74" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Some <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProjects" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WikiProjects">WikiProjects</a> have specific recommendations - for example see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities/Settlements:_Article_structure#Toponymy" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Settlements: Article structure">Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities/Settlements:_Article_structure#Toponymy</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Nikkimaria" title="User:Nikkimaria">Nikkimaria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nikkimaria" title="User talk:Nikkimaria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Nikkimaria-20241016014800-GenderBiohazard-20241016014500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-75" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Thank you. <a href="/wiki/User:GenderBiohazard" title="User:GenderBiohazard">GenderBiohazard</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GenderBiohazard" title="User talk:GenderBiohazard">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-GenderBiohazard-20241016015200-Nikkimaria-20241016014800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-76" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Amusingly, it reads: "Toponymy: This section may also be called Etymology or Name." So, full circle. "Names" also occurs, for places with more than one; I've also seen "Naming" in a few cases. Sometimes this information is not in a section devoted to it at all but is part of the lead, or is integrated chronologically into the "History" section. I'm skeptical that the average reader knows what "toponymy" means, though they'd figure it out quickly enough from the content in the section. "Etymology" would only really apply if the content in the section really did dwell on etymology. At, e.g., "New York" this probably wouldn't be applicable, since the origins of the word new and the name York are unlikely to be involved. "Name[s]" is simple and universally understood, but it might seem informal. This seems to me one of those "leave it to consensus at each article" matters. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241025234700-Nikkimaria-20241016014800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-77" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(10)"><h2 id="Up_for_north?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Up_for_north?-20241021123500">Up for north?</h2><span id='ooui-php-242' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241025233700-Doniago-20241021164400">28 days ago</a>7 comments6 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-10 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-10"> What do we think of the colloquial practice of equating cardinal directions with conventional depictions on a map? Examples would include "down south", "up north" or even "going down to London". This last is particularly confusing as there's another convention (I think rail-based) that always says "up to London"! I would argue that such language should be avoided here; it adds no meaning and introduces a potential for confusion. It may also be too colloquial for encyclopedic purposes. What do others think? <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241021123500-Up_for_north?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-78" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Aside from direct quotations and titles of works, I would say that such usages are not encyclopedic phrasing. --<a href="/wiki/User:Khajidha" title="User:Khajidha">User:Khajidha</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Khajidha" title="User talk:Khajidha">talk</a>) (<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Khajidha" title="Special:Contributions/Khajidha">contributions</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Khajidha-20241021125900-John-20241021123500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:59, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-79" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd>I'll have you know that the official phrase is "<a href="/wiki/Estuary_English" title="Estuary English">darn Sarf</a>"! <a href="/wiki/Billericay_Dickie" title="Billericay Dickie">Billericay Dickievans123</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martinevans123" title="User talk:Martinevans123">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Martinevans123-20241021130200-John-20241021123500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:02, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-80" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>I think I'm a bit surprised that the MoS doesn't already have advice regarding colloquialisms? Is it time for <a href="/wiki/MOS:COLLOQUIALISM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:COLLOQUIALISM">MOS:COLLOQUIALISM</a>? <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Doniago-20241021143100-John-20241021123500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-81" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I'd say that goes without saying. In an encyclopedia, use encyclopedic language. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241021163400-Doniago-20241021143100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-82" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Ah, <a href="/wiki/MOS:TONE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TONE">MOS:TONE</a> mentions colloquialisms, so I think this falls under that umbrella. <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Doniago-20241021164400-Gawaon-20241021163400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-83" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Yes, and there are orders of magnitude too many colloquialisms that wouldn't be appropriate in an encyclopedia for us to address random ones like this individually. We address very few of them in specifics, and only when they are endemically habitual in casual writing and thus produce a lot of cleanup to do (e.g. <a href="/wiki/MOS:CONTRACTIONS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:CONTRACTIONS">MOS:CONTRACTIONS</a>, <a href="/wiki/MOS:YOU" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:YOU">MOS:YOU</a>). — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241025233700-Doniago-20241021164400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-84" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(11)"><h2 id='"Perhaps_the_most..."' data-mw-thread-id='h-"Perhaps_the_most..."-20241023140300'>"Perhaps the most..."</h2><span id='ooui-php-243' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121100800-John-20241025214500">2 days ago</a>23 comments8 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-11 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-11"> I'm seeing a lot of articles using this sort of wording and I don't like it! To take just one random example, "Prague was perhaps the most important center for Cubism outside Paris before the start of World War I." (<a href="/wiki/Czech_Cubism" title="Czech Cubism">Czech Cubism</a>), the 'perhaps' seems weaselly and/or POV. It also reads like an editorial rather than an encylopedia entry. I think either "Prague was an important center for cubism", or "Prague was the most important center for cubism", or "so-and-so called Prague 'The most important center for cubism'" (whichever the sources support) would be infinitely better in most cases of 'Perhaps the most|best|biggest|' etc. However, I can see a LOT of articles using this sort of construct, I wanted to just start a discussion here to see if it's being left alone for a good reason, or if I'm right that this is an example of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEASEL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEASEL">WP:WEASEL</a> before I embark on modifying loads of articles to fix something that only I have a problem with! Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:JeffUK" title="User talk:JeffUK">JeffUK</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-JeffUK-20241023140300-%22Perhaps_the_most...%22" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-85" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It certainly has the potential to be used in a weaselly way, but like other such formulations, it is fine if the statement accurately reflects the source. If a source states that Prague is arguably the most important centre for cubism outside Paris, that is the nuance the article should reflect. There is ambiguity in the world, and good sources reflect that. In many cases the wording might be better replaced with something else, but I think it would have to be evaluated case by case.--<a href="/wiki/User:Trystan" title="User:Trystan">Trystan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Trystan" title="User talk:Trystan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Trystan-20241023143500-JeffUK-20241023140300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-86" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>I agree this would be better honed down to a specific claim like "Prague was widely regarded as second only to Paris as a center for Cubism"<source>. It's the "perhaps" that jars; like the topic above, <a href="/wiki/MOS:TONE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TONE">MOS:TONE</a> would seem to recommend against language like this. Yes, we should reflect the uncertainty that exists within and between sources, but I don't think this is what "perhaps" does. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241023161600-JeffUK-20241023140300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-87" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>There are a lot. Simple searches show 2,198 articles using <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%22perhaps+the+best%22&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1">"perhaps the best"</a> and 658 <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%22possibly+the+best%22&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1">"possibly the best"</a>, but <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%22perhaps+the+most%22&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1">"perhaps the most"</a> with 9,890 articles is possibly the worst. <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NebY" title="User talk:NebY">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-NebY-20241023170100-JeffUK-20241023140300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-88" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> <ul><li>I strongly disagree with this point. Certainty may be achievable in chemistry, but it just isn't in the humanities, & it absolutely necessary that we indicate this to our readers where appropriate. Unfortunately some editors don't get this. <a href="/wiki/User:Johnbod" title="User:Johnbod">Johnbod</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnbod" title="User talk:Johnbod">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Johnbod-20241023181000-JeffUK-20241023140300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-89" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but please don't misrepresent mine. There is no certainty in any complex field, not in the sciences (see <a href="/wiki/Uncertainty_principle" title="Uncertainty principle">uncertainty principle</a>), not in history (see <a href="/wiki/Historiography" title="Historiography">historiography</a>), not in politics, art or anything else. But as an encyclopedia, we reflect this uncertainty best when we quantify the uncertainty and attribute it to the best sources, not when we use a lazy form of words to wave a hand at something being uncertain. Everything is. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241023210600-Johnbod-20241023181000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-90" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I wasn't commenting on you at all, but whatever. Don't tell me, tell the herds of editors who pounce on any expression of uncertainty. <a href="/wiki/User:Johnbod" title="User:Johnbod">Johnbod</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnbod" title="User talk:Johnbod">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Johnbod-20241023230300-John-20241023210600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-91" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Then I apologise. My background is in Chemistry and I've worked on a lot of chem stuff over the years here. So I wrongly thought that was directed at me. Here's to expressing the uncertainty as clearly as possible, but preferably without flabby phrases like the one under discussion. On the same ground I find qualifiers like "about", "approximately" and "some" are way overused here. Pretty much all measurements are uncertain. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241023234500-Johnbod-20241023230300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-92" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Sure - I didn't know that (or had forgotten), so a bit of a fluke there! You can't get far in my areas of art history and ancient history without a lot of qualifiers, especially if you are trying to write general articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Johnbod" title="User:Johnbod">Johnbod</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnbod" title="User talk:Johnbod">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Johnbod-20241024000200-John-20241023234500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-93" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Qualifiers are absolutely fine, I think 'Perhaps the most..' specifically sounds like us pontificating in wiki-voice, rather than explaining why there is uncertainty, or who thinks there is uncertainty, but 'perhaps' isn't the issue here exactly, You could find/replace it with "One of the most" and you'd have the same problem. I'm realising thanks to this discussion that it's something that requires thought and research to resolve on an article-by-article basis, to identify the source of the uncertainty and be more explicit about it, it's maybe not a style question at all, more one of sourcing and verifiability. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:JeffUK" title="User talk:JeffUK">JeffUK</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-JeffUK-20241024080200-Johnbod-20241024000200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-94" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive. In my opinion (having looked at the sample articles linked from this discussion), it's always a style issue and almost always a sourcing one too. A good article won't ever airily handwave the uncertainty in this way, I think. Thanks for raising such an interesting point. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241029212200-JeffUK-20241024080200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-95" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd>I think that it is a fair point that "Perhaps the most..." sorts of statements should be quotes from authorities. <a href="/wiki/User:BD2412" title="User:BD2412">BD2412</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:BD2412" title="User talk:BD2412">T</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-BD2412-20241024010200-JeffUK-20241023140300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-96" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>My concern with that as a blanket policy is that it would tend to give more weight to less careful sources. A source that says Prague was the most important centre for cubism after Paris could be cited in wikivoice, while if the same source added "perhaps", just to acknowledge there is some room for debate from the prevailing view, the statement could only be quoted.--<a href="/wiki/User:Trystan" title="User:Trystan">Trystan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Trystan" title="User talk:Trystan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Trystan-20241024135400-BD2412-20241024010200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-97" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I would think that we would still want a statement like "Prague was the most important centre for cubism after Paris" in a quote. <a href="/wiki/User:BD2412" title="User:BD2412">BD2412</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:BD2412" title="User talk:BD2412">T</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-BD2412-20241024140800-Trystan-20241024135400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:08, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-98" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Could we not have some guideline that unsourced and unsupported "perhaps the most" statements may possibly be inappropriate? I see statements such as <dl><dd>Out of all the Andean countries, Bolivia remains perhaps the most culturally linked to the indigenous peoples. - <a href="/wiki/Music_of_Bolivia" title="Music of Bolivia">Music of Bolivia</a></dd> <dd>Of the several stories about the ghosts of former presidents of the United States revisiting the White House, Lincoln's ghost is perhaps the most common and popular. ... Perhaps the most famous incident was in 1942 when Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands .... <a href="/wiki/Lincoln%27s_ghost" title="Lincoln's ghost">Lincoln's ghost</a></dd> <dd>Perhaps the most spectacular athletic events were in swimming. <a href="/wiki/Swimming_at_the_1972_Summer_Olympics" title="Swimming at the 1972 Summer Olympics">Swimming at the 1972 Summer Olympics</a></dd> <dd>their casual invitation to Willie [Maley] to also come along was perhaps the most important in Celtic's history. <a href="/wiki/Tom_Maley" title="Tom Maley">Tom Maley</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Such statements are often verbal fillers, as also with "perhaps the best known"<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%22perhaps+the+best+known%22&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1">[2]</a>, a little stronger and more stylish than "for example" and yes, comparatively innocuous - but unsubstantiated and possibly indicating that the writer's personal knowledge is focused on that particular instance. <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NebY" title="User talk:NebY">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-NebY-20241024144500-Trystan-20241024135400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:45, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-99" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>What would be the alternative, though? Just "the best known" is essentially impossible to prove (and even if some sources say so, others might disagree) and just not mentioning this fact at all would in many cases be a real loss, I'd say. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241024163000-NebY-20241024144500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Agree with <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> that this is filler, adds no meaning, and is inherently impossible to prove. I think I would argue that <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WTW" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WTW">this is therefore a phrase</a> that should never appear in Wikipedia's voice but only in an attributed quote. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241024200100-Gawaon-20241024163000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-101" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>That's not what I said or meant, rather on the contrary ("just not mentioning this fact at all would in many cases be a real loss" – emphasis added). Let's remember that outside of narrow fields like maths, strict proof is rarely possible anyway, and we go for what reliable sources say, not for what's proven. If several RS call something "the best known", while other's don't mention this fact, summarizing this as "perhaps the best known" seems a reasonable choice. One could also say "a well-known" and that's probably what I would do, but still I wouldn't say that the alternative must always be avoided and eliminated on sight. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241025075100-John-20241024200100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-102" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>No, I know. You said that such claims are unprovable and NebY said they were verbal filler. I agree with both those statements and hence don't think it's a very encyclopedic phrase. I'm not suggesting we just don't mention it or remove it on sight either; I proposed a better form of words right at the start. I think in general value judgments (such as this) absolutely have to be attributed. This is why I don't think in this form it should be appearing in Wikipedia's voice. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241025122400-Gawaon-20241025075100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-103" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I think we are glossing over the fact that not saying something in Wikipedia's voice is different from not saying something at all. If you want to say that "Lincoln's ghost is perhaps the most common and popular", well, according to whom? We can't say it at all if no reliable source actually thinks this is true, and if one does, then we can quote the language it uses to say this. <a href="/wiki/User:BD2412" title="User:BD2412">BD2412</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:BD2412" title="User talk:BD2412">T</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-BD2412-20241025221000-John-20241025122400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-104" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I have to entirely agree with this: "It certainly has the potential to be used in a weaselly way, but like other such formulations, it is fine if the statement accurately reflects the source[s]." In particular, there is rarely unanimity or near-unanimity across multiple RS on matters that are a judgment call, yet a large enough preponderance of them may agree on an assessment that leaving it out would result in an incomplete/misleading article, yet also WP is not in a position to declare a subjective matter of public consensus to be an objective fact. That is, this sort of wording is a way by which WP can indicate to the reader that a bunch of sources agree on this point, but some minority do not, and it's not a matter of cold hard fact (like whether the earth is round or flat, or many other science questions). Our readers already understand this. All that said, there is conceivably a better way to phrase it than the specific strings at issue here like "Perhaps the most", and "is perhaps one of the best-known", and the like. I would suggest coming up with something you are convinced is better and trying it out at a number of randomly selected articles and seeing whether it sticks. PS: If one wanted to have a more in-depth review of this sort of language and whether we should have advice specifically addressing it, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:MOSWTW" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:MOSWTW">WT:MOSWTW</a> is probably a better venue than the main MoS talk page. MOS:WTW is basically where MoS and NPoV+NOR most strongly intersect. That entire guideline is about terms and phrases to avoid (sometimes or always), and why, and what to do instead. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241025212300-JeffUK-20241023140300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-105" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I agree with a lot of what you say, and on the best next steps. Your science example proves my point rather than yours though; the <a href="/wiki/Earth" title="Earth">Earth</a> is neither perfectly spherical nor flat. Aside from the mountains and the oceans, it bulges significantly at the Equator. Few complex subjects can fairly be described without some uncertainty. The use of "perhaps" seems like a WP:TONE concern, as in my opinion a serious encyclopedia should report the nature and degree of the uncertainty, rather than just trivially stating that it exists. I'm not saying words like this should never be used, more that a more precise form of words is better. It's like "a number of"; better to state the actual number if it's known, or just say "some". As you say, a candidate for WTW. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241025214500-SMcCandlish-20241025212300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-106" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I didn't say anything about "perfectly spherical". Lots of non-perfectly-spherical shapes are still round (i.e. subjected to curvature around their circumference). On the more important matter, we're generally not in a position to "report the nature and degree of the uncertainty", at least not the "degree" part, because that would require <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a> unless a secondary reliable source has actually quantified it, which is unlikely in the vast majority of cases. Even covering the nature and perhaps [there's that word you don't like!] some vague indication of degree is often not appropriate in a lead section, both for length reasons and for giving undue weight to a fringe position to highlighting its nonsense claims. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">a more precise form of words is better</q> – Like what? Or to put it another way, how exactly is "perhaps" supposedly broken? PS: I agree about "a number of", which is a confusing construction. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121100800-John-20241025214500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-107" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(12)"><h2 id="MOS:PRONOUNS_cleanup" data-mw-thread-id="h-MOS:PRONOUNS_cleanup-20241025005300"><a href="/wiki/MOS:PRONOUNS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:PRONOUNS">MOS:PRONOUNS</a> cleanup</h2><span id='ooui-php-244' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121101200-Randy_Kryn-20241026025100">2 days ago</a>21 comments11 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-12 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-12"> <div class="boilerplate discussion-archived mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-progressive-subtle, #f5f3ef); color: var(--color-base, inherit); overflow:auto; margin: 1em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-subtle, #aaa)"> <div class="boilerplate-header"> <dl><dd>The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows. <dl><dd>Consensus for the merge/clean-up. <a href="/wiki/User:Choucas_Bleu" title="User:Choucas Bleu">Choucas Bleu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Choucas_Bleu" title="User talk:Choucas Bleu">T</a>·<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Choucas_Bleu" title="Special:Contributions/Choucas Bleu">C</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Choucas_Bleu-20241110201800-MOS:PRONOUNS_cleanup" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-108" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <hr> </div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="box-Warning plainlinks tmbox tmbox-content" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><noscript><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Ambox_important.svg/40px-Ambox_important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="40" data-file-height="40"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 40px;height: 40px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Ambox_important.svg/40px-Ambox_important.svg.png" data-alt="" data-width="40" data-height="40" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Ambox_important.svg/60px-Ambox_important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Ambox_important.svg/80px-Ambox_important.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> </td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align: left;">Please do not hijack this practical editing thread to push any viewpoint about pronouns, especially: <ul><li>Use of pronouns with regard to trans/nonbinary/genderqueer people</li> <li>Use of she/her with regard to ships</li></ul> These have both been talked to death, and this thread is not about changing a single thing with regard to their Wikipedia status quo. It is only about having guideline material where it belongs and not duplicated or forked.</td></tr></tbody></table> To solve several problems at once, I propose the following: 1) Add this text to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Pronouns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Pronouns</a> (<a href="/wiki/MOS:PRONOUNS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:PRONOUNS">MOS:PRONOUNS</a>), which at present confusingly lacks anything on third-person ones, despite disputation about them coming up more often than with regard to any other: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote"> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236298596">.mw-parser-output .fake-heading{color:var(--color-emphasized,#000000);background:none;margin:0;overflow:hidden;padding-bottom:0.17em;page-break-after:avoid;padding-top:0.5em}.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h1,.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h2{border-bottom:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);margin-bottom:0.25em;margin-top:1em;padding:0;font-family:"Linux Libertine","Georgia","Times","Source Serif Pro",serif;line-height:1.375}body.skin-monobook .mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h1,body.skin-monobook .mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h2{font-family:inherit;line-height:inherit}body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h1,body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h2{border-bottom:3px solid #c8ccd1}.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h1{font-size:1.8em}body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h1{font-size:2em}.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h2{font-size:1.5em}body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h2{font-size:1.8em}.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h3,.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h4,.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h5,.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h6{font-weight:bold;margin-top:0.3em;margin-bottom:0;padding-bottom:0;line-height:1.6}.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h3{font-size:1.2em}.mw-parser-output .fake-heading.h4{font-size:100%}</style><div class="fake-heading h3">Third-person pronouns</div> Refer to a person with pronouns (and other gendered words) that reflect their most recent self-identification in recent reliable sources. <a href="/wiki/Singular_they" title="Singular they">Singular they/them/their</a> are appropriate in reference to anyone who uses them, as replacements for <a href="/wiki/Neopronoun" title="Neopronoun">neopronouns</a>, and in generic reference to persons of unknown gender. <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1033199720">.mw-parser-output div.crossreference{padding-left:0}</style><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951">(For considerably more detail, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography">WP:Manual of Style/Biography § Gender identity</a>.) <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1252059228"><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcut</a></div><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1126788409"><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MOS:SHIPPRONOUN&redirect=no">MOS:SHIPPRONOUN</a></li></ul></div></div> Ships (military or private) may be referred to either by <a href="/wiki/Grammatical_gender" title="Grammatical gender">neuter</a> pronouns (it, its) or feminine pronouns (she, her). Both usages are acceptable, but each article should be internally consistent and exclusively employ only one style.<a href="#cite_note-1">[a]</a> As with all optional styles, articles <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Retaining_existing_styles" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">should not</a> be changed from one style to another without clear and substantial reason.<a href="#cite_note-debates-2">[b]</a> Try to avoid close, successive uses of the same referent for a ship by carefully using a number of referents in rotation; for example, it or she, the ship, and the ship's name. The she/her optional style does not apply to other vessel/vehicle types, such as trains.<a href="#cite_note-3">[c]</a> [...] <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236298596"><div class="fake-heading h2">Notes</div> [...] <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist reflist-lower-alpha"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a> As usual, direct quotations should not be altered in such a regard, and have no effect on determination of consistency within Wikipedia-authored content. </li> <li id="cite_note-debates-2"><a href="#cite_ref-debates_2-0">^</a> See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_(ships_as_%22she%22)" title='Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she")'>Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she")</a> for an index of recurrent debates about this subject, from 2004 though 2022. </li> <li id="cite_note-3"><a href="#cite_ref-3">^</a> See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_167#WP:SHE_for_steam_locomotives_as_well_as_ships" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 167">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 167 § WP:SHE for steam locomotives as well as ships</a> – concluded with a strong consensus against the practice. </li> </ol></div></div></blockquote> 2) This (mis-placed) subsection at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(ships)#Pronouns" title="Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships)">Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships)#Pronouns</a> (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SHE4SHIPS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SHE4SHIPS">WP:SHE4SHIPS</a>) is to be deleted: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r996643573"><div class="block-indent"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236298596"><div class="fake-heading h3">Pronouns</div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1252059228"><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcut</a></div><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1126788409"><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:SHE4SHIPS&redirect=no">WP:SHE4SHIPS</a></li></ul></div></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951"><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">For the naming convention for military vessels, see <a href="/wiki/MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS">MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS</a>.</div> Ships may be referred to by either feminine pronouns (she, her) or neuter pronouns (it, its). Either usage is acceptable, but each article should be internally consistent and exclusively employ only one style. As with all optional styles, articles <a href="/wiki/MOS:STYLEVAR" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:STYLEVAR">should not</a> be changed from one style to another without clear and substantial reason.<a href="#cite_note-debates-4">[a]</a> </div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239543626"><div class="reflist reflist-lower-alpha"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-debates-4"><a href="#cite_ref-debates_4-0">^</a> See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_(ships_as_%22she%22)" title='Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she")'>Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she")</a> for an index of recurrent debates about this subject, from 2004 though 2024. </li> </ol></div></div> and replaced with: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r996643573"><div class="block-indent"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236298596"><div class="fake-heading h3">Pronouns</div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1033199720"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951">For use of "it/its" or "she/her" in reference to ships, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Third-person_pronouns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">WP:Manual of Style § Third-person pronouns</a>. </div> 3) The subsection at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Military_history#Pronouns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Military history">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Military history#Pronouns</a> (presently <a href="/wiki/MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS">MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS</a>) is to be deleted: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r996643573"><div class="block-indent"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236298596"><div class="fake-heading h3">Pronouns</div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951"><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">For the naming convention for merchant ships, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SHE4SHIPS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SHE4SHIPS">WP:SHE4SHIPS</a>.</div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1252059228"><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcut</a></div><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1126788409"><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS&redirect=no">MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS</a></li></ul></div></div> Ships may be referred to either using feminine pronouns (she, her) or neuter pronouns (it, its). Either usage is acceptable, but each article should be internally consistent and employ one or the other exclusively. As with all optional styles, articles <a href="/wiki/MOS:STYLEVAR" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:STYLEVAR">should not</a> be changed from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so. Try to avoid close, successive uses of the same referent for a ship by carefully using a number of referents in rotation; for example, it/she, the ship, and the ship's name. </div> and replaced with the same cross-reference as above: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r996643573"><div class="block-indent"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236298596"><div class="fake-heading h3">Pronouns</div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1033199720"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951">For use of "it/its" or "she/her" in reference to ships, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Third-person_pronouns" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">WP:Manual of Style § Third-person pronouns</a>. </div> 4) Shortcuts that presently go to either of the old ship subsections will be re-targeted to the new one in the main MoS page. What this will solve: <ul><li>It is very confusing that the main MoS page has a section for pronouns but contains nothing about the two most frequent pronoun-related subjects of conflict on Wikipedia.</li> <li>It is unhelpful to have advice that is fairly frequently sought (and repeatedly contentious) buried on obscure pages.</li> <li>One of these is a naming conventions page, and has nothing to do with article content; the ship pronoun question never arises in article titles, so this does not belong in an NC page at all.</li> <li>The military-related concern ends up being exactly duplicative of that with regard to merchant and other private-sector ships, so it is not intrinsically a military style matter at all.</li> <li>It is unwise to have initially duplicate language in two different guidelines, as it will inevitably <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POLICYFORK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POLICYFORK">WP:POLICYFORK</a> over time and cause a conflict. The language in the two subsections has already drifted apart some.</li> <li>The purpose of the main MoS page is (aside from having some unique, usually overarching rules that are not found in any of the topical drill-down pages) to summarize the key points of all the MoS pages. With regard to pronouns, these two points certainly qualify.</li> <li>Make a few bits of the wording slightly clearer. E.g., that the ships thing is both military and private-sector.</li> <li>Point to the consensus record against expanding she/her beyond ships.</li> <li>Clarify that singular-they is also used generically; <a href="/wiki/MOS:GENDERID" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:GENDERID">MOS:GENDERID</a> skips that because it isn't pertinent to gender-related editing disputations, but I think we all know by now that this particular usage of singular-they is the one with a pedigree all the way back to Middle English. There still exist various agitators against singular-they, so any antics they might get up to on a wikilawyering basis need to be accounted for. Provide them no loophole to game.</li> <li>For ships, subtly suggest a preference for it over she by listing the former first. This will be in agreement with the vast majority of actual practice, both in our material and in modern RS material.</li> <li>Fix shortcuts so people arrive at the MoS material about it, not at cross-references to the MoS material about it.</li></ul> Please do not response to this cleanup proposal with suggestions to add new or remove old restrictions with regard to any sort of pronoun usage. This is not what this thread is about. The "Try to avoid close, successive uses of the same referent ..." material might be compressable without losing the gist of it. I chose not to, here, since this is in part a merge proposal and those are complicated when major textual changes are introduced. Further compression could be achieved by not having the first-paragraph summary of MOS:GENDERID on pronouns, but only a bare cross-reference sentence like "For third-person pronouns and their relation to human gender, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1033199720"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951">see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography">WP:Manual of Style/Biography § Gender identity</a>." PS: For those interested in the tediously long history of disputation over she/her and ships, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_(ships_as_%22she%22)" title='Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she")'>Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she")</a>; this might be missing some that happened at other pages, like in article talk. I don't know of a comprehensive archive of debates regarding pronouns and social gender, but someone may have compiled one by now. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241025005300-MOS:PRONOUNS_cleanup" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-109" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <ul><li>As a content manager in real life, it drives me nuts to see the same material duplicated across several pages. Support condensing to just the MoS page as suggested. <a href="/wiki/User:Parsecboy" title="User:Parsecboy">Parsecboy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Parsecboy" title="User talk:Parsecboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Parsecboy-20241025115100-SMcCandlish-20241025005300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-110" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support — <a href="/wiki/User:OwenBlacker" title="User:OwenBlacker">OwenBlacker</a> (he/him; <a href="/wiki/User_talk:OwenBlacker" title="User talk:OwenBlacker">Talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-OwenBlacker-20241025122000-SMcCandlish-20241025005300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-111" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Good idea, support. If it is possible to clarify that this section of the style guide refers to ships that float on water, and not airships, spaceships or other vehicles, I think that would be useful. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241025160700-SMcCandlish-20241025005300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-112" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Of legal knowledge I acquired such a grip / That they took me into the partnership. / And that junior partnership, I ween, / Was the only ship that I ever had seen. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfao1s3Tiek#t=1m11s">[3]</a> <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241025173700-John-20241025160700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-113" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>But that sort of ship so suited he / That now he is the ruler of the Queen's Navee. --<a href="/wiki/User:Trovatore" title="User:Trovatore">Trovatore</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Trovatore" title="User talk:Trovatore">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Trovatore-20241025180200-EEng-20241025173700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:02, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a> <span id="ooui-php-114" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If you mention suiting again I'll report you for legal threats. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241025193300-Trovatore-20241025180200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-115" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Suit yourself. --<a href="/wiki/User:Trovatore" title="User:Trovatore">Trovatore</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Trovatore" title="User talk:Trovatore">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Trovatore-20241025203500-EEng-20241025193300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a> <span id="ooui-php-116" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Self-surgery" title="Self-surgery">Suture self.</a> <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241025204900-Trovatore-20241025203500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-117" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>One of my favorite dad jokes involves that pun. A doctor cuts her finger in the OR. Another doctor says "Let me sew that closed for you" ... you can figure out the rest. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241025210300-EEng-20241025204900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-118" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a>: That would actually be a substantive change, and I'm skeptical there is a clear consensus for it. Most of our terminology with regard to spaceships, airships, and hovercraft (maybe something else I'm forgetting) are derived directly from those pertinent to float-on-water ships, because they are closely analogous in most relevant respects. That's not the case with trains and tanks and trucks/lorries and skateboards and bicycles and etc. The train RfC hints in the vague direction of "don't do it for spacecraft either", but did not clearly reach a result that specific, so for now it's an open question. That is, the jury seems to still be out on the exact definition of "ship" for this particular purpose.And I expect (given 20 years of history) for the entire matter to come up again within the year. If it does, it should probably be done as a VPPOL RfC, to attract a larger body of input from the community, instead of just the same handful of MoS regulars and people from watercraft and military history wikiprojects. [Aside: I wonder, sometimes, that this hasn't also come up for a few other topics with a historical "she" practice, especially countries, as in "Ireland and her rolling green hills". No one seems to want to fight to impose that style, and I'm glad of it.] But for now, I just want to merge and clean up the redundant and poorly placed guideline material as it presently stands. If nothing else, it will provide a single and obvious locus of the perennially-but-unresolvedly disputed material, instead of having it scattered in confusing places. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241025210300-John-20241025160700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-119" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></li></ul> <ul><li><dl><dd>Fully support as proposed. (I have put this here as some of the text below wanders, gently, off-topic) - <a href="/wiki/User:Davidships" title="User:Davidships">Davidships</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Davidships" title="User talk:Davidships">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Davidships-20241104184500-John-20241025160700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-120" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></li></ul> I read somewhere around here recently that Japanese ships are referred to with he/his. Are we saying just don't do that in English WP, or are we just ignoring a potential complication? I'd be in favor of saying explicitly not to. <a href="/wiki/User:Dicklyon" title="User:Dicklyon">Dicklyon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dicklyon" title="User talk:Dicklyon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Dicklyon-20241026015400-MOS:PRONOUNS_cleanup" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-121" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Something to research further, I suppose, but that's another substantive change proposal and out-of-scope for this merge/cleanup thread. Something to address in a later revision proposal after we have more details/sources on the question. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241026022200-Dicklyon-20241026015400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:22, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-122" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>No prob. I Support in any case. <a href="/wiki/User:Dicklyon" title="User:Dicklyon">Dicklyon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dicklyon" title="User talk:Dicklyon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Dicklyon-20241026030100-SMcCandlish-20241026022200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-123" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>Ships are typically referred to in English as 'she'. That's a very old usage and tradition. Is it codified in military usage, or simply traditional. <a href="/wiki/User:Randy_Kryn" title="User:Randy Kryn">Randy Kryn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Randy_Kryn" title="User talk:Randy Kryn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Randy_Kryn-20241026025100-Dicklyon-20241026015400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-124" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Either way, the point is that some will argue strongly for "she", and some will argue strongly against, and that's not part of what we can settle in this cleanup re-org. Same as what he told me about using "he" for Japanese ships; best not bring it up right now. <a href="/wiki/User:Dicklyon" title="User:Dicklyon">Dicklyon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dicklyon" title="User talk:Dicklyon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Dicklyon-20241026030300-Randy_Kryn-20241026025100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-125" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Repeat: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Please do not hijack this practical editing thread to push any viewpoint about pronouns, especially: ... Use of she/her with regard to ships</q>. [sigh] — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121101200-Randy_Kryn-20241026025100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:12, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-126" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd>Japanese doesn't have gendered third-person pronouns, so I don't see how that can be. あいつ usually gets translated as "he" or "she" depending on whom is being referenced, but I very much doubt it is ever used for ships, as it's usually used with contempt. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/73.2.106.248" title="Special:Contributions/73.2.106.248">73.2.106.248</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:73.2.106.248" title="User talk:73.2.106.248">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-73.2.106.248-20241104130300-Dicklyon-20241026015400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-127" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> Noting the consensus close, I've put this work on my to-do list, but will probably get to it tomorrow or later. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121101200-MOS:PRONOUNS_cleanup" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:12, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-128" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div> </div><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(13)"><h2 id="Main_Street,_U.S.A.:_GEOCOMMA?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Main_Street,_U.S.A.:_GEOCOMMA?-20241028060100"><a href="/wiki/Main_Street,_U.S.A." class="mw-redirect" title="Main Street, U.S.A.">Main Street, U.S.A.</a>: GEOCOMMA?</h2><span id='ooui-php-245' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121103600-Sammi_Brie-20241028060100">2 days ago</a>12 comments6 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-13 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-13"> I was considering reviewing <a href="/wiki/Main_Street_Vehicles" title="Main Street Vehicles">Main Street Vehicles</a>, which contains many references in running text to the theme park section <a href="/wiki/Main_Street,_U.S.A." class="mw-redirect" title="Main Street, U.S.A.">Main Street, U.S.A.</a> These currently lack GEOCOMMAs, e.g. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">is located in the Main Street, U.S.A. section</q>. This is not technically a geographic place name as the comma is part of the full name. Would a comma after still be necessary? <a href="/wiki/User:Sammi_Brie" title="User:Sammi Brie">Sammi Brie</a> (she/her • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sammi_Brie" title="User talk:Sammi Brie">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sammi_Brie" title="Special:Contributions/Sammi Brie">c</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Sammi_Brie-20241028060100-Main_Street,_U.S.A.:_GEOCOMMA?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:01, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-129" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I would treat it as one, as it's clearly modelled after them. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241028081500-Sammi_Brie-20241028060100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-130" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>What are those periods doing? <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241028110000-Gawaon-20241028081500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-131" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Good question! <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241028173700-John-20241028110000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-132" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The comma is present in <a href="/wiki/File:Main_Street,_U.S.A._logo.svg" title="File:Main Street, U.S.A. logo.svg">its official logo</a>. I'm sorry to admit I can't put my finger on it, and I've been known to be wrong from time to time, but I believe MoS says we retain the comma in that case. According to the article's lead, it doesn't even refer to a single, discrete location on the planet. The all-caps in the logo is a different matter. Agree as to the periods; the rationale for adding them, if any, is not apparent and unknown to me. Maybe it's a COMMONNAME argument, I don't know, but offhand I'd say the article needs a move to <a href="/wiki/Main_Street,_USA" title="Main Street, USA">Main Street, USA</a>. (Needless to say, the mechanism for that is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RM">WP:RM</a> at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Street,_U.S.A." class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Main Street, U.S.A.">Talk:Main Street, U.S.A.</a>, not consensus here.) ―<a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mandruss" title="User talk:Mandruss">☎</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Mandruss-20241029033700-Sammi_Brie-20241028060100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-133" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The question here is not about the comma before "U.S.A./USA", but whether there should be one placed after it if the sentence continues. As per GEOCOMMA, I'd say yes. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241029082900-Mandruss-20241029033700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-134" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>What's wrong with "Main Street USA"? <a href="/wiki/User:Tony1" title="User:Tony1">Tony</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tony1" title="User talk:Tony1">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Tony1-20241029115200-Gawaon-20241029082900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-135" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It's not what the theme is called. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241029173600-Tony1-20241029115200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-136" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It is, according to the theme's own logo, as displayed on the article. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241029195600-Gawaon-20241029173600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:56, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-137" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I've started a move discussion at article talk if anyone's interested. <a href="/wiki/User:John" title="User:John">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John" title="User talk:John">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-John-20241030001300-John-20241029195600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-138" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>My mistake. Thanks for correcting me. In that case, no meaningful opinion. ―<a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mandruss" title="User talk:Mandruss">☎</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Mandruss-20241029225900-Gawaon-20241029082900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-139" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Yes, it would take a comma afterward, since the comma in it is serving the same bracketing function as that in "Des Moines, Iowa", or the one in "Gallumphing Department, Ministry of Silly Walks", or that in "Encyclopædia Britannica, 11th edition", and so on. Bracketing commas come in pairs unless the second is replaced by other punctuation (or would be at the end of something that takes no terminal punctuation, like a table header). — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121103600-Sammi_Brie-20241028060100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-140" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(14)"><h2 id='"Wikipedia_Manual_of_Style"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion' data-mw-thread-id='h-"Wikipedia_Manual_of_Style"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20241101192200'>"<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_Manual_of_Style" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia Manual of Style">Wikipedia Manual of Style</a>" listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">Redirects for discussion</a></h2><span id='ooui-php-246' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121104400-TeapotsOfDoom-20241101192200">2 days ago</a>2 comments2 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-14 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-14"> <a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><noscript><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 30px;height: 30px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" data-width="30" data-height="30" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> </a> The redirect <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_Manual_of_Style&redirect=no">Wikipedia Manual of Style</a> has been listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">redirects for discussion</a> to determine whether its use and function meets the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect" title="Wikipedia:Redirect">redirect guidelines</a>. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_November_1#Wikipedia_Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 1">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 1 § Wikipedia Manual of Style</a> until a consensus is reached. <a href="/wiki/User:TeapotsOfDoom" title="User:TeapotsOfDoom">TeapotsOfDoom</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TeapotsOfDoom" title="User talk:TeapotsOfDoom">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-TeapotsOfDoom-20241101192200-%22Wikipedia_Manual_of_Style%22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-141" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I didn't see this in time to comment, but it was kept, and I think this was an error. The general argument seemed to be that it was a plausible typo (a missing ":"), but by that reasoning every WP:-namespace page should have such a mainspace redirect. The secondary argument seemed to be that non-edtor readers might actually be looking for our manual of style, as a "meta" matter, but a) ditto the above issue, and b) our MoS is not a work of public advice and people should not consult it the way they might the AP Stylebook or whatever. The third issue is that by now it may well be possible to write an actual encyclopedia article about the WP MoS; enough off-site publications have probably treated it or aspects of it with sufficient depth to pass <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GNG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GNG">WP:GNG</a>, but this cross-namespace redirect is squatting on the title. If that article could exist then it should. In short this should be a red link, so should be re-RfDed at some point, with a clearer rationale. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121104400-TeapotsOfDoom-20241101192200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:44, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-142" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(15)"><h2 id='"Manual_of_Style:"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion' data-mw-thread-id='h-"Manual_of_Style:"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20241101195000'>"<a href="/w/index.php?title=Manual_of_Style:&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Manual of Style: (page does not exist)">Manual of Style:</a>" listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">Redirects for discussion</a></h2><span id='ooui-php-247' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-TeapotsOfDoom-20241101195000-"Manual_of_Style:"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion">22 days ago</a>1 comment1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-15 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-15"> <a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><noscript><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 30px;height: 30px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" data-width="30" data-height="30" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> </a> The redirect <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manual_of_Style:&redirect=no">Manual of Style:</a> has been listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">redirects for discussion</a> to determine whether its use and function meets the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect" title="Wikipedia:Redirect">redirect guidelines</a>. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_November_1#Manual_of_Style:" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 1">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 1 § Manual of Style:</a> until a consensus is reached. <a href="/wiki/User:TeapotsOfDoom" title="User:TeapotsOfDoom">TeapotsOfDoom</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TeapotsOfDoom" title="User talk:TeapotsOfDoom">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-TeapotsOfDoom-20241101195000-%22Manual_of_Style:%22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-143" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(16)"><h2 id="Should_interactive_content_be_included_and,_if_so,_where_and_how?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Should_interactive_content_be_included_and,_if_so,_where_and_how?-20241102205900">Should interactive content be included and, if so, where and how?</h2><span id='ooui-php-248' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Bawolff-20241111172200-JMF-20241102205900">12 days ago</a>7 comments4 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-16 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-16"> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256395226">.mw-parser-output table{background-color:#F4F4F4;color:#000000;border-radius:10px;overflow:hidden}.mw-parser-output td.prompt{background-color:#E0E0E0;color:grey;text-align:right;padding:0 0.5ex}.mw-parser-output td{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output th{background-color:#E0E0E0;color:grey;font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .risk{display:none}.mw-parser-output tr.obscured{display:none}.mw-parser-output tr.briRow td input{display:none}.mw-parser-output .bri1{background-color:#AA202F;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette1:checked~.bri1{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri2{background-color:#CCFA7F;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette2:checked~.bri2{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri3{background-color:#BFFF7F;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette3:checked~.bri3{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri4{background-color:#FFE97F;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette4:checked~.bri4{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri5{background-color:#FFBD7F;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette5:checked~.bri5{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri6{background-color:#FF7F91;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette6:checked~.bri6{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri7{background-color:#F67587;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette7:checked~.bri7{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri8{background-color:#F16F80;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette8:checked~.bri8{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri9{background-color:#EB6879;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette9:checked~.bri9{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri10{background-color:#E36071;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette10:checked~.bri10{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri11{background-color:#DB5768;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette11:checked~.bri11{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri12{background-color:#D34D5E;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette12:checked~.bri12{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri13{background-color:#CB4455;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette13:checked~.bri13{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri14{background-color:#C33B4B;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette14:checked~.bri14{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri15{background-color:#BA3242;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette15:checked~.bri15{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri16{background-color:#B32938;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette16:checked~.bri16{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri17{background-color:#AA202F;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette17:checked~.bri17{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri18{background-color:#A21625;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette18:checked~.bri18{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri19{background-color:#9A0D1B;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette19:checked~.bri19{display:block}.mw-parser-output .bri20{background-color:#8E000E;display:none}.mw-parser-output #calculator-field-showSilhouette20:checked~.bri20{display:block}</style> <div class="calculatorgadget-fallback">Please select in your preferences: <a href="/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-input-wpgadget-Calculator" title="Special:Preferences">Enables javascript Calculator template</a> to see a working calculator.</div> <table class="bmicalc calculatorgadget-enabled" style="display:none; float: right; margin-left:15px;"> <caption>Body roundness calculator </caption> <tbody><tr> <td class="prompt">Units </td> <th>Metric </th> <td rowspan="3"> </td> <th>Imperial </th></tr> <tr> <td class="prompt">Height </td> <td><span class="calculator-field" id="calculator-field-heightcm" data-calculator-type="number" data-calculator-formula="round(heightfeet*12*2.54+heightinches*2.54)" data-calculator-size="3" data-calculator-min="1">160 cm </td> <td style="text-align:left;">5 ft <span class="calculator-field" id="calculator-field-heightinches" data-calculator-type="number" data-calculator-formula="round(heightcm/(2.54)-12*floor(heightcm/(12*2.54)))" data-calculator-size="2" data-calculator-max="11" data-calculator-min="0">3 in </td></tr> <tr> <td class="prompt">Waist </td> <td>72 cm </td> <td style="text-align:left;">28 in </td></tr> <tr> <td class="prompt"><a href="/wiki/WHtR" class="mw-redirect" title="WHtR">WHtR</a> </td> <td colspan="3">0.45 </td></tr> <tr> <td class="prompt"><a href="/wiki/Body_roundness_index" title="Body roundness index">BRI</a> </td> <td colspan="3"><span class="calculator-field" id="calculator-field-bri" data-calculator-type="plain" data-calculator-formula="364.2-365.5×pow(1-(pow(waistcm/6.28318,2)/pow(0.5×heightcm,2)),0.5)" data-calculator-decimals="2" data-calculator-nan-text="Please come back after birth">2.46 </td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1126788409"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1246091330">.mw-parser-output .sidebar{width:22em;float:right;clear:right;margin:0.5em 0 1em 1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa);border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.2em;text-align:center;line-height:1.4em;font-size:88%;border-collapse:collapse;display:table}body.skin-minerva .mw-parser-output .sidebar{display:table!important;float:right!important;margin:0.5em 0 1em 1em!important}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-subgroup{width:100%;margin:0;border-spacing:0}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-left{float:left;clear:left;margin:0.5em 1em 1em 0}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-none{float:none;clear:both;margin:0.5em 1em 1em 0}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-outer-title{padding:0 0.4em 0.2em;font-size:125%;line-height:1.2em;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-top-image{padding:0.4em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-top-caption,.mw-parser-output .sidebar-pretitle-with-top-image,.mw-parser-output .sidebar-caption{padding:0.2em 0.4em 0;line-height:1.2em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-pretitle{padding:0.4em 0.4em 0;line-height:1.2em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-title,.mw-parser-output .sidebar-title-with-pretitle{padding:0.2em 0.8em;font-size:145%;line-height:1.2em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-title-with-pretitle{padding:0.1em 0.4em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-image{padding:0.2em 0.4em 0.4em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-heading{padding:0.1em 0.4em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-content{padding:0 0.5em 0.4em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-content-with-subgroup{padding:0.1em 0.4em 0.2em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-above,.mw-parser-output .sidebar-below{padding:0.3em 0.8em;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-collapse .sidebar-above,.mw-parser-output .sidebar-collapse .sidebar-below{border-top:1px solid #aaa;border-bottom:1px solid #aaa}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-navbar{text-align:right;font-size:115%;padding:0 0.4em 0.4em}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-list-title{padding:0 0.4em;text-align:left;font-weight:bold;line-height:1.6em;font-size:105%}.mw-parser-output .sidebar-list-title-c{padding:0 0.4em;text-align:center;margin:0 3.3em}@media(max-width:640px){body.mediawiki .mw-parser-output .sidebar{width:100%!important;clear:both;float:none!important;margin-left:0!important;margin-right:0!important}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output .sidebar a>img{max-width:none!important}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .sidebar:not(.notheme) .sidebar-list-title,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .sidebar:not(.notheme) .sidebar-title-with-pretitle{background:transparent!important}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .sidebar:not(.notheme) .sidebar-title-with-pretitle a{color:var(--color-progressive)!important}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .sidebar:not(.notheme) .sidebar-list-title,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .sidebar:not(.notheme) .sidebar-title-with-pretitle{background:transparent!important}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .sidebar:not(.notheme) .sidebar-title-with-pretitle a{color:var(--color-progressive)!important}}@media print{body.ns-0 .mw-parser-output .sidebar{display:none!important}}</style><table class="sidebar nomobile nowraplinks" style="width:auto;border:1px solid #ccc;background:#fff;border-right:3px solid #ccc;border-bottom:3px solid #ccc;text-align:center;padding:3px;float:right;font-size:smaller;margin-right:4px;"><tbody><tr><td class="sidebar-above" style="padding:0 0 0.1em;background:#aaa;color:#f9f9f9;"> Today</td></tr><tr><td class="sidebar-content plainlist" style="line-height:1.6em;white-space:nowrap;;padding-top:0.25em;"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Saturday" title="Saturday">Saturday</a></li></ul> <hr> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/23_November" class="mw-redirect" title="23 November">23 November</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/2024" title="2024">2024</a> <a href="/wiki/Gregorian_calendar" title="Gregorian calendar">AD/CE</a></li></ul> <hr> <ul><li>3 <a href="/wiki/Azar" title="Azar">Azar</a></li> <li>1403 <a href="/wiki/Solar_Hijri_calendar" title="Solar Hijri calendar">SH</a></li></ul> <hr> <ul><li>21 <a href="/wiki/Jumada_al-awwal" class="mw-redirect" title="Jumada al-awwal">Jumada al-awwal</a></li> <li>1446 <a href="/wiki/Tabular_Islamic_calendar" title="Tabular Islamic calendar">AH</a></li></ul> <hr> [<a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&action=purge">refresh</a>]</td> </tr></tbody></table> I think this is a new topic, forgive me if not. At <a href="/wiki/Waist-to-height_ratio" title="Waist-to-height ratio">Waist-to-height ratio</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">user:Uwappa</a> wants to include an interactive calculator that they have developed, replicated here for your convenience. The concept is fairly simple: readers may enter their own height and waist-circumference and receive a calculation of their Waist-to-height ratio (and a related metric recently popular in the US, <a href="/wiki/Body_roundness_index" title="Body roundness index">body roundness index</a>). It is not earth-shattering stuff, the math is straightford and the underlying algorithms are fully supported by <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MEDRS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MEDRS">WP:MEDRS</a>. We already have dynamic content, such as the display of the Islamic and Hebrew calendar dates v today's Gregorian calendar date. I don't see any issue with that practice. So here are the questions: <ol><li>Should Wikipedia include interactive content?</li> <li>If so, how should it be presented? <ol><li>Inline, without comment, so it appears to be just a static, illustrative example. As shown in <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Waist-to-height_ratio&oldid=1254977933">this version of the page</a> in the section #Guidelines. It is, however, still interactive.</li> <li>In an independent section, as shown in <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Waist-to-height_ratio&oldid=1254715497">this version</a>, in the section #Calculator, with a line of text that explains what it is. (<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">This interactive calculator can calculate a waist–height ratio and <a href="/wiki/Body_roundness_index" title="Body roundness index">Body roundness index</a>. It accepts height and waist in <a href="/wiki/Centimetre" title="Centimetre">cm</a> or <a href="/wiki/Inch" title="Inch">inches</a>.</q></li> <li>Something else?</li></ol></li> <li>Is it a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOR">WP:NOR</a> violation? [not obviously to my mind, since it is 'merely' expressing the RSs in numerical rather than text form].</li> <li>Are there other issues that arise? (For ex, is <a href="/wiki/MOS:ACCESS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ACCESS">MOS:ACCESS</a> a show-stopper?)</li></ol> Personally I think it is a good idea (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTPAPER" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTPAPER">WP:NOTPAPER</a>) but I'm not sure how best to handle it. Comments? <a href="/wiki/User:JMF" title="User:JMF">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JMF" title="User talk:JMF">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-JMF-20241102205900-Should_interactive_content_be_included_and,_if_so,_where_and_how?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-144" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>See also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_215#Building_a_simple_body_index_calculator" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 215">Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 215#Building a simple body index calculator</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64">Redrose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Redrose64-20241102232300-JMF-20241102205900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-145" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>On the subject of accessibility - if the labels for interactive fields are created using the {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Calculator_label" title="Template:Calculator label">calculator label</a>}} template, it should mark in the HTML that that piece of text corresponds to that specific input button, which is something that screen readers should hopefully be able to take into account. I would recommend using {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Calculator_label" title="Template:Calculator label">calculator label</a>}} where possible when labeling fields, for better accessibility (It may not be possible if a label labels more than one widget). For the most part, I think it should be reasonably accessible most of the time, but i would love to hear feedback from accessibility experts, as I am definitely not one.</dd> <dd>One thing I would recommend is to test how any interactive content looks when printed. In some cases it looks fine as is, but in other cases it might be necessary to make specific fallback content. The template supports having fallback content for cases where js is disabled or during printing. <a href="/wiki/User:Bawolff" title="User:Bawolff">Bawolff</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bawolff" title="User talk:Bawolff">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Bawolff-20241111172200-JMF-20241102205900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:22, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-146" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Reply_by_Uwappa" data-mw-thread-id="h-Reply_by_Uwappa-Should_interactive_content_be_included_and,_if_so,_where_and_how?-20241103005200">Reply by Uwappa</h3></div> Demo: <ol><li>Update the <a href="/wiki/Waist-to-height_ratio#calculator-field-heightcm" title="Waist-to-height ratio">height</a> in <a href="/wiki/Waist-to-height_ratio#Calculation" title="Waist-to-height ratio">the calculator on the WHtR page</a>.</li> <li>The formula example values will 'magically update'.</li> <li>See the wikitext for what that takes to do. Look mum, no javascript!</li></ol> No, it was not me who wanted a calculator, do not deserve any credits here, <a href="/wiki/User:Zefr" title="User:Zefr">user:Zefr</a> does, see <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doc_James#c-Zefr-20240921012800-Body_roundness_index" title="User talk:Doc James">Zefr's founding father's idea of 01:28, 21 September 2024</a>. <ol><li>Yes, Wikipedia should have interactive content. It is 2024. The web has moved on from being previous century 'static' text and images. WP is more than an online version of a paper encyclopedia with text and images. I fail to see why the calendar example is relevant here. Please don't be amazed that it is possible to show dynamic content in 2024, like the current time, 22:38, 23 November 2024 <a href="/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time" title="Coordinated Universal Time">UTC</a> [<a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&action=purge">refresh</a>].</li> <li> <ol><li>Calculations should be presented inline, just like current examples at: <a href="/wiki/Inch#Equivalents" title="Inch">Inch#Equivalents</a>, <a href="/wiki/Body_roundness_index#Calculation" title="Body roundness index">Body_roundness_index#Calculation</a>, <a href="/wiki/Waist-to-height_ratio#Recommended_boundary_values" title="Waist-to-height ratio">Waist-to-height_ratio#Recommended_boundary_values</a>, <a href="/wiki/Centimetre#Equivalence_to_other_units_of_length" title="Centimetre">Centimetre#Equivalence_to_other_units_of_length</a>.</li> <li>No, it does not accept just cm or inches. The Sandbox version does not ask you to input cm or inches, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTHOW" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTHOW">WP:NOTHOW</a>. It uniquely accepts any unit, unlike commercial BRI calculators. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doc_James#That%E2%80%99s_2_small_steps_in_a_sandbox,_1_giant_leap_for_mankind." title="User talk:Doc James">A 3 year old in outback Australia could use a piece of string as a unit</a>. You can use <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Usability_test_of_body_roundness_calculators" title="Template talk:Body roundness index">the height of a peanut button jar as a unit, please do</a> and while at it, please record the time it took you to do the usability test and compare it with commercial calculators. It does support Americans, British and others using <a href="/wiki/Imperial_units" title="Imperial units">Imperial_units</a> by providing cm-> feet & inches conversions.</li></ol></li> <li>No it is not a NOR violation as defined by <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CALC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CALC">WP:CALC</a>. The only thing <a href="/wiki/Template:Calculator" title="Template:Calculator">Template:Calculator</a> can do: calculations with numbers only. It yields just numbers, which include a simple <a href="/wiki/Bit" title="Bit">bit</a>, with a value of 0 or 1: to hide or to show, that is the question. See <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#AI_or_not_AI?" title="Template talk:Body roundness index">proposed plain English explanation in the sandbox</a>. This show or hide is taken care of by standard CSS. Switch off CSS in your browser and see what goes on under the hood. A joke for the happy few that do understand <a href="/wiki/Boolean_algebra#Basic_operations" title="Boolean algebra">Boolean_algebra#Basic_operations</a> and have a sense of humor: <a href="/wiki/Shakespeare" class="mw-redirect" title="Shakespeare">Shakespeare</a> was wrong. <a href="/wiki/To_be,_or_not_to_be" title="To be, or not to be">To_be,_or_not_to_be</a> is not a question in 2024, it evaluates to a constant, boolean value: true. Same logic at: <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#AI_or_not_AI?" title="Template talk:Body roundness index">中国房间 = AI NOT(AI)?</a> That is not a question either. It is true.</li> <li>Security may be a concern to some. Is there some dangerous Javascript here? The answer was amazing for me: no. Look mum, no javascript in the wikicode. Current WP rules and guidelines suffice and apply, see <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Information_hierarchy" title="Template talk:Body roundness index">information hierarchy in Sandbox</a>.</li></ol> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Uwappa" title="User talk:Uwappa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Uwappa-20241103005200-Reply_by_Uwappa" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-147" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> It is hard to tell from a distance what the reason for this post is. To me this post is a waist of valuable time and should be withdrawn. The current MOS applies well to: <ul><li>A fixed date, just text like 1 dec 2032</li> <li>A dynamic date, like now is 22:38, Saturday, November 23, 2024 (<a href="/wiki/UTC" class="mw-redirect" title="UTC">UTC</a>) using <a href="/wiki/Template:Currentdate" title="Template:Currentdate">template:currentdate</a></li> <li>A combination of the two, like it is now 96 months till 1 dec 2032</li> <li> A dynamic interactive version, using calculator with input fields asking for a month 11, year 2024 and the result of a calculation: It is 97 till 1 dec 2032.</li></ul> What is the problem here? <ul><li>It may be a case of <a href="/wiki/Amygdala_hijack" title="Amygdala hijack">Amygdala hijack</a>. A bit of good old British humor might help. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0lOtdvqyg"><kbd class="nowrap button" title="This is not a clickable button; it illustrates the button one should find." style="padding:.2em .6em; border:1px solid; border-color:var(--border-color-base, #a2a9b1) var(--border-color-interactive, #72777d) var(--border-color-interactive, #72777d) var(--border-color-base, #a2a9b1); border-radius:3px; background-color: #F2F2F2; color: inherit; background-image: linear-gradient(to bottom, #ffff99, #ffcccc); font-family:sans-serif;">DON'T PANIC, don't PANIC, don't panic!!!!</kbd></a></li> <li>It may be <a href="/wiki/Fomo" class="mw-redirect" title="Fomo">fomo</a>. Help, this <a href="/wiki/Template:Calculator" title="Template:Calculator">Template:Calculator</a> is too complex for me, I am just an editor of fixed text. I won't be able to do this kind of stuff! <a href="/wiki/Alan_Cooper#inmates" title="Alan Cooper">The computer nerds are taking over WP, panic, panic, panic!!!</a> Same solution: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0lOtdvqyg"><kbd class="nowrap button" title="This is not a clickable button; it illustrates the button one should find." style="padding:.2em .6em; border:1px solid; border-color:var(--border-color-base, #a2a9b1) var(--border-color-interactive, #72777d) var(--border-color-interactive, #72777d) var(--border-color-base, #a2a9b1); border-radius:3px; background-color: #F2F2F2; color: inherit; background-image: linear-gradient(to bottom, #ffff99, #ffcccc); font-family:sans-serif;">DON'T PANIC, don't PANIC, don't panic!!!!</kbd></a></li> <li>It may be limited Math skills, leading to a false WP:OR claim. See <a href="/wiki/Talk:Body_roundness_index#c-Zefr-20241014181200-Uwappa-20241014080100" title="Talk:Body roundness index">Talk:Body_roundness_index#c-Zefr-20241014181200-Uwappa-20241014080100</a> and <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#c-JMF-20241020193300-Zefr-20241020192100" title="Template talk:Body roundness index">Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#c-JMF-20241020193300-Zefr-20241020192100</a>. Credits to user JMF for seeing the logic in</li></ul> <math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" display="block" alttext="{\displaystyle {\text{BRI}}=364.2-365.5{\sqrt {1-{\Big (}{\frac {\text{waist}}{\;\;\pi \;\;\times \;\,{\text{height}}}}{\Big )}^{2}}}}"> <semantics> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mstyle displaystyle="true" scriptlevel="0"> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mtext>BRI</mtext> </mrow> <mo>=</mo> <mn>364.2</mn> <mo>−</mo> <mn>365.5</mn> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <msqrt> <mn>1</mn> <mo>−</mo> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mo maxsize="1.623em" minsize="1.623em">(</mo> </mrow> </mrow> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mfrac> <mtext>waist</mtext> <mrow> <mspace width="thickmathspace"></mspace> <mspace width="thickmathspace"></mspace> <mi>π</mi> <mspace width="thickmathspace"></mspace> <mspace width="thickmathspace"></mspace> <mo>×</mo> <mspace width="thickmathspace"></mspace> <mspace width="thinmathspace"></mspace> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mtext>height</mtext> </mrow> </mrow> </mfrac> </mrow> <msup> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mo maxsize="1.623em" minsize="1.623em">)</mo> </mrow> </mrow> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mn>2</mn> </mrow> </msup> </msqrt> </mrow> </mstyle> </mrow> <annotation encoding="application/x-tex">{\displaystyle {\text{BRI}}=364.2-365.5{\sqrt {1-{\Big (}{\frac {\text{waist}}{\;\;\pi \;\;\times \;\,{\text{height}}}}{\Big )}^{2}}}}</annotation> </semantics> </math><noscript><img src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/4d70d2029f9d4f30dff55ecf0f7c26e228eccee9" class="mwe-math-fallback-image-display mw-invert skin-invert" aria-hidden="true" style="vertical-align: -3.338ex; width:45.837ex; height:7.676ex;" alt="{\displaystyle {\text{BRI}}=364.2-365.5{\sqrt {1-{\Big (}{\frac {\text{waist}}{\;\;\pi \;\;\times \;\,{\text{height}}}}{\Big )}^{2}}}}"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 45.837ex;height: 7.676ex;vertical-align: -3.338ex;" data-src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/4d70d2029f9d4f30dff55ecf0f7c26e228eccee9" data-alt="{\displaystyle {\text{BRI}}=364.2-365.5{\sqrt {1-{\Big (}{\frac {\text{waist}}{\;\;\pi \;\;\times \;\,{\text{height}}}}{\Big )}^{2}}}}" data-class="mwe-math-fallback-image-display mw-invert skin-invert">  with <math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" display="block" alttext="{\displaystyle {\text{WHtR}}={\frac {\text{waist}}{\text{height}}}}"> <semantics> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mstyle displaystyle="true" scriptlevel="0"> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mtext>WHtR</mtext> </mrow> <mo>=</mo> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mfrac> <mtext>waist</mtext> <mtext>height</mtext> </mfrac> </mrow> </mstyle> </mrow> <annotation encoding="application/x-tex">{\displaystyle {\text{WHtR}}={\frac {\text{waist}}{\text{height}}}}</annotation> </semantics> </math><noscript><img src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/0dfbe94aadfedb04ef886e3a2e3f7ae0bbd76402" class="mwe-math-fallback-image-display mw-invert skin-invert" aria-hidden="true" style="vertical-align: -2.338ex; width:17.013ex; height:5.676ex;" alt="{\displaystyle {\text{WHtR}}={\frac {\text{waist}}{\text{height}}}}"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 17.013ex;height: 5.676ex;vertical-align: -2.338ex;" data-src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/0dfbe94aadfedb04ef886e3a2e3f7ae0bbd76402" data-alt="{\displaystyle {\text{WHtR}}={\frac {\text{waist}}{\text{height}}}}" data-class="mwe-math-fallback-image-display mw-invert skin-invert">  to get <math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" display="block" alttext="{\displaystyle {\text{BRI}}=364.2-365.5{\sqrt {1-{\Big (}{\frac {\text{WHtR}}{\;\;\pi \;\;\,}}{\Big )}^{2}}}}"> <semantics> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mstyle displaystyle="true" scriptlevel="0"> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mtext>BRI</mtext> </mrow> <mo>=</mo> <mn>364.2</mn> <mo>−</mo> <mn>365.5</mn> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <msqrt> <mn>1</mn> <mo>−</mo> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mo maxsize="1.623em" minsize="1.623em">(</mo> </mrow> </mrow> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mfrac> <mtext>WHtR</mtext> <mrow> <mspace width="thickmathspace"></mspace> <mspace width="thickmathspace"></mspace> <mi>π</mi> <mspace width="thickmathspace"></mspace> <mspace width="thickmathspace"></mspace> <mspace width="thinmathspace"></mspace> </mrow> </mfrac> </mrow> <msup> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mo maxsize="1.623em" minsize="1.623em">)</mo> </mrow> </mrow> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mn>2</mn> </mrow> </msup> </msqrt> </mrow> </mstyle> </mrow> <annotation encoding="application/x-tex">{\displaystyle {\text{BRI}}=364.2-365.5{\sqrt {1-{\Big (}{\frac {\text{WHtR}}{\;\;\pi \;\;\,}}{\Big )}^{2}}}}</annotation> </semantics> </math><noscript><img src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/b8cc5fa75eda3e2d1628ed35352939af6c3c2c0d" class="mwe-math-fallback-image-display mw-invert skin-invert" aria-hidden="true" style="vertical-align: -2.338ex; width:38.468ex; height:6.176ex;" alt="{\displaystyle {\text{BRI}}=364.2-365.5{\sqrt {1-{\Big (}{\frac {\text{WHtR}}{\;\;\pi \;\;\,}}{\Big )}^{2}}}}"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 38.468ex;height: 6.176ex;vertical-align: -2.338ex;" data-src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/b8cc5fa75eda3e2d1628ed35352939af6c3c2c0d" data-alt="{\displaystyle {\text{BRI}}=364.2-365.5{\sqrt {1-{\Big (}{\frac {\text{WHtR}}{\;\;\pi \;\;\,}}{\Big )}^{2}}}}" data-class="mwe-math-fallback-image-display mw-invert skin-invert">  <ul><li>It may be just a lack of knowledge, not knowing about <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CALC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CALC">WP:CALC</a>. That is an easy one to solve, just go and read it</li> <li>It may be a problem with limited <a href="/wiki/Cognitive_skill" title="Cognitive skill">Cognitive_skills</a> or use of a small screen smartphone in stead of a large computer monitor. User JMF has replied with TMI to my posts several times. The easy solution would be to switch to a big monitor for more complex talk pages. For limited cognitive skills, I can only recommend to visit a medical expert, will not give medical advice <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MEDICAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MEDICAL">WP:MEDICAL</a>.</li> <li>Disclosure: My field of expertise is a form of psychology that seems unknown in the English speaking world: function psychology. The 'patient' in that science is not the human, it is the design object that causes man-thing interaction problems like: Help, I do not understand my computer and my computer does not understand me. The 'cure' is a redesign of the 'thing' e.g. the <a href="/wiki/Graphical_user_interface" title="Graphical user interface">Graphical_user_interface</a>. Create a human efficient design that suits the qualities and limitations of the human eye, interpretation skills, memory, ability to think and take action (mostly with hands in computer interfaces). WP does not have an article yet on <a href="/w/index.php?title=Human_efficiency&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Human efficiency (page does not exist)">human efficiency</a> or <a href="/w/index.php?title=Function_psychology&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Function psychology (page does not exist)">function psychology</a>. Being too involved in this field, it is not up to me to write such articles, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COI" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COI">WP:COI</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTABOUTYOU" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTABOUTYOU">WP:NOTABOUTYOU</a>.</li></ul> What I can do is to help WP and design excellent, human efficient interfaces. All of you can help by evaluating results. <ul><li>Is the sandbox version human efficient? And please do not give a sh** about computer efficiency. No worries if computers do 'redundant' calculations to make humans more efficient.</li> <li>Is the sandbox calculator better or worse than commercial equivalents?</li> <li>I do not give a s*** about personal preferences and your 'solutions' based on personal preferences. Go and tell someone who cares. Just list the problems you encountered during the tests. The most valuable ones are when test subjects fail to reach the desired result.</li></ul> Such usability tests are easy to do and can be fun. Kudos to user JMF who has done a usability test that were very insightful for me in the metric world and have lead to an excellent unit less solution for people using either metric or imperial units. Please join the fun, perform a usability test yourself at: <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Usability_test_of_body_roundness_calculators" title="Template talk:Body roundness index">Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Usability_test_of_body_roundness_calculators</a> — Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Uwappa#top" title="User talk:Uwappa">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Uwappa" title="Special:Contributions/Uwappa">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Uwappa-20241103072400-Reply_by_Uwappa" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-148" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a>:, this discussion is about the principle of how best to handle interactive content on Wikipedia. The details of the first such example are not relevant to the discussion. If anyone wants the details, you have covered them extensively at the template talk page. <a href="/wiki/User:JMF" title="User:JMF">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JMF" title="User talk:JMF">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-JMF-20241103074900-Uwappa-20241103072400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-149" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Yes, I get the question. Do you understand my answer or is this TMI again for you?</dd> <dd>Did you notice the interactive date computations at <a href="#calculator-field-month">#dateCalc</a>? It would be a compliment if you missed it.</dd> <dd>Please go and inspect that bit of wikitext. Yes, it is really that simple to make interactive calculations!</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Uwappa" title="User talk:Uwappa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Uwappa-20241103080200-JMF-20241103074900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-150" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(17)"><h2 id="MOS_namespace" data-mw-thread-id="h-MOS_namespace-20241103142400">MOS namespace</h2><span id='ooui-php-249' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121105300-MSGJ-20241103142400">2 days ago</a>2 comments2 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-17 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-17"> Now that we have the new MOS namespace, are there any plans to move the manual of style, or will that namespace just be used for the MOS shortcuts (e.g. <a href="/wiki/MOS:THEY" class="mw-disambig" title="MOS:THEY">MOS:THEY</a>) that used to litter the article space? — Martin (<a href="/wiki/User:MSGJ" title="User:MSGJ">MSGJ</a> · <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MSGJ" title="User talk:MSGJ">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-MSGJ-20241103142400-MOS_namespace" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-151" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It's just used for shortcuts, to keep MoS stuff from sucking up all the mnemonically useful shortcuts that could have other uses/targets in "Wikipedia:" namespace. MoS collectively has more shortcuts than anything else on the system. "MOS:" used to be a pseudo-namespace, but doing it that way had no practical benefit and had the downside of everything in it really being a namespace page (plus any variation like "Mos:" causing the creation of additional mainspace pages). Thus it is now a proper namespace. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121105300-MSGJ-20241103142400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-152" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(18)"><h2 id='"Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion' data-mw-thread-id='h-"Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20241105163500'>"<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS">Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS</a>" listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">Redirects for discussion</a></h2><span id='ooui-php-250' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Hexware-20241105163500-"Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion">18 days ago</a>1 comment1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-18 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-18"> <a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><noscript><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 30px;height: 30px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" data-width="30" data-height="30" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> </a> The redirect <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS&redirect=no">Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS</a> has been listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">redirects for discussion</a> to determine whether its use and function meets the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect" title="Wikipedia:Redirect">redirect guidelines</a>. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_November_5#Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 5">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 5 § Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS</a> until a consensus is reached. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hexware&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hexware (page does not exist)">Hexware</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hexware" title="User talk:Hexware">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hexware-20241105163500-%22Wikipedia:MOSSECTIONHEADINGS%22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-153" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(19)"><h2 id='"MOS:HESD"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion' data-mw-thread-id='h-"MOS:HESD"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20241105163500'>"<a href="/w/index.php?title=MOS:HESD&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MOS:HESD (page does not exist)">MOS:HESD</a>" listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">Redirects for discussion</a></h2><span id='ooui-php-251' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Hexware-20241105163500-"MOS:HESD"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion">18 days ago</a>1 comment1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-19 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-19"> <a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><noscript><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 30px;height: 30px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" data-width="30" data-height="30" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> </a> The redirect <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MOS:HESD&redirect=no">MOS:HESD</a> has been listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">redirects for discussion</a> to determine whether its use and function meets the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect" title="Wikipedia:Redirect">redirect guidelines</a>. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_November_5#MOS:HESD" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 5">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 5 § MOS:HESD</a> until a consensus is reached. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hexware&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hexware (page does not exist)">Hexware</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hexware" title="User talk:Hexware">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hexware-20241105163500-%22MOS:HESD%22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-154" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(20)"><h2 id="MOS:DATECOMMA_and_ranges" data-mw-thread-id="h-MOS:DATECOMMA_and_ranges-20241108122700"><a href="/wiki/MOS:DATECOMMA" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DATECOMMA">MOS:DATECOMMA</a> and ranges</h2><span id='ooui-php-252' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121114600-EEng-20241114224500">2 days ago</a>34 comments5 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-20 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-20"> <a href="/wiki/User:Amaury" title="User:Amaury">Amaury</a> is <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1256112870" title="Special:Diff/1256112870">insistent</a> that DATECOMMA does not apply to a range (expressed in prose): that from October 12, 2012 to September 25, 2015. is right and from October 12, 2012, to September 25, 2015. is wrong. That is nonsensical. The year is still a parenthetical; it is still required to be bounded by a punctuation pair. Notably, <a href="/wiki/MOS:TENSE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TENSE">MOS itself</a> includes a greentext example showing correct DATECOMMA applied to a range: between October 6, 1997, and May 20, 2002. Their argument <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">January 1, 2023,–January 1, 2024</q> would be incorrect, which means <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">January 1, 2024, to January 1, 2024</q> is also incorrect. It's still a date range, just written out instead of en-dashed. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">January 1, 2023–January 1, 2024</q> and <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">January 1, 2023 to January 1, 2024</q> are equivalent.</blockquote> is inconsistent with MOS. <a href="/wiki/MOS:RANGE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:RANGE">MOS:RANGE</a> is clear: <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Do not mix en dashes with between[/and] or from[/to].</q></dd> <dd>from 450 to 500 people, not from 450–500 people</dd></dl> This means an en dash and "to" are not equivalent or interchangeable in Amaury's argued example. January 1, 2023,–January 1, 2024 is incorrect only because DATECOMMA already obviates the closing comma when the year is <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">followed by other punctuation</q>, i.e., the en dash. Is there an exception to DATECOMMA for written-out ranges? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108122700-MOS:DATECOMMA_and_ranges" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-155" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Commas/faq0012.html">Chicago Manual agrees</a>, a second comma after the year in a range. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108131000-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108122700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-156" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>A minor <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_156#Date_ranges_and_commas_in_prose" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 156">prior discussion</a>. EEng: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">do what feels best</q>. SMcCandlish: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">No, there is no exception</q>. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108132900-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108131000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-157" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Well I guess it makes sense to ping the previous participants then. @<a href="/wiki/User:C.Fred" title="User:C.Fred">C.Fred</a>, @<a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a>, @<a href="/wiki/User:EEng" title="User:EEng">EEng</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User:Hey man im josh">Hey man im josh</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User talk:Hey man im josh">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hey_man_im_josh-20241108142800-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108132900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-158" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The <a href="/wiki/USGPO" class="mw-redirect" title="USGPO">USGPO</a> requires it: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-STYLEMANUAL-2008/pdf/GPO-STYLEMANUAL-2008-10.pdf">[4]</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The dates of September 11, 1993, to June 12, 1994, were erroneous.</q> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108134800-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108131000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-159" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>Reading <a href="/wiki/MOS:DATERANGE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DATERANGE">MOS:DATERANGE</a>, I would think it's apparently standard to use an en dash, such as <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">January 1, 2023 – January 1, 2024</q>, possibly to avoid this exact issue. Personally I don't see why DATECOMMA wouldn't apply when an en dash isn't used, but I'm not an expert, so clarity on the MOS pages could be beneficial. <a href="/wiki/User:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User:Hey man im josh">Hey man im josh</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User talk:Hey man im josh">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hey_man_im_josh-20241108132100-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108122700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-160" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Use of endash for ranges isn't standard, if by "standard" you mean "preferred over to"; either is ok in general, the choice depending on a combination of context or preference. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241108181500-Hey_man_im_josh-20241108132100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-161" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></li> <li>While Amaury's argument is complete nonsense, the idea that 2015 in <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">May 5, 2015</q> is a "parenthetical" is something even worse: pompous nonsense.<a href="#cite_note-5">[1]</a> If that were so, then people in England would write <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">We set 25 May, 2015, as the deadline</q>, which they don't (and they can be pretty pompous, so that's saying a lot) or in America they'd write <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">He left on May 5, 2015<big>,.</big></q> (<== with a comma AND a period at the end there) and they don't do that either (despite being crazy in other regards, as recent events demonstrate). The comma's present in <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">May 5, 2015</q> because setting digits cheek-by-jowl (as in <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">May 5 2015</q>) would be confusing and error-prone.</li></ul> <dl><dd>I'm generally a prescriptivist, but when it comes to comma usage, there are way too many fussbudgets (including otherwise sensible and respected style guides) still insisting that they be used in all kinds of places that great-grandpa might have used them (<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Tomorrow, we will leave</q>) but where no sensible person today would use them under normal circumstances. Things change, and one big change over the last 200 to 300 years is a lightening up on commas. I realize I'm in the minority here, but when I read this "parenthetical/appositive" nonsense I cannot remain silent. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241108181500-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108122700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-162" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239543626"><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-5"><a href="#cite_ref-5">^</a> Additional pomposity can be achieved by claiming that 2015 is an "appositive". </li> </ol></div></div> <dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/wiki/MOS:DATECOMMA" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DATECOMMA">MOS:DATECOMMA</a> does in any case refer only to MDY dates, not to DMY dates. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241108205400-MOS:DATECOMMA_and_ranges" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-163" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>That's part of my point. If commas are supposed to act as "parentheticals" around the year, then we'd be putting commas around the year in DMY dates as well as in MDY dates. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241108212200-Gawaon-20241108205400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-164" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I mean, it could just be that the MDY style contingent has decided it's a parenthetical, and the DMY style contingent has decided it's not. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108212800-EEng-20241108212200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-165" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Plus, in DMY years, since there are no commas before the year, the question of whether to put some around it cannot even arrive. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241109082000-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108212800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:20, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-166" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>Forgot to mention: This issue entered my radar because I noticed Amaury is engaged in a tedious revert battle with a seeming IP sock who loves adding range DATECOMMAs (e.g., <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1254809774" title="Special:Diff/1254809774">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1248401048" title="Special:Diff/1248401048">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1217758685" title="Special:Diff/1217758685">3</a>). If DATECOMMA applies to ranges, then this uninspiring back-and-forth can take a rest as the changes are <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BANREVERT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BANREVERT">obviously helpful</a></q>. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108205700-Gawaon-20241108205400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-167" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I mean... I don't think those edits are incorrect personally. <a href="/wiki/User:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User:Hey man im josh">Hey man im josh</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User talk:Hey man im josh">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hey_man_im_josh-20241108211500-Hyphenation_Expert-20241108205700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-168" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></li></ul> <figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-right" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Bible_Camp.JPG" class="mw-file-description"><noscript><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Bible_Camp.JPG/180px-Bible_Camp.JPG" decoding="async" width="180" height="154" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="1024" data-file-height="876"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 180px;height: 154px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Bible_Camp.JPG/180px-Bible_Camp.JPG" data-width="180" data-height="154" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Bible_Camp.JPG/270px-Bible_Camp.JPG 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Bible_Camp.JPG/360px-Bible_Camp.JPG 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> </a><figcaption>"When technically minded folk with a penchant for order, consistency, and control get caught up in the zeal of a systematization crusade, unpleasantness can result." – <a href="/wiki/User:A_Fellow_Editor" title="User:A Fellow Editor">A Fellow Editor</a> </figcaption></figure> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Sad to say, under MOS as it stands, the IP's changes are correct. I just think it's stupid to bother. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241108212500-MOS:DATECOMMA_and_ranges" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-169" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>And see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:If_MOS_doesn%27t_need_a_rule_on_something,_then_it_needs_to_not_have_a_rule_on_that_thing#For_want_of_a_comma,_the_clause_was_lost_aka_Why_every_goddam_thing_needn't_be_micromanaged_in_a_rule" title="Wikipedia:If MOS doesn't need a rule on something, then it needs to not have a rule on that thing">WP:If MOS doesn't need a rule on something, then it needs to not have a rule on that thing#For want of a comma, the clause was lost aka Why every goddam thing needn't be micromanaged in a rule</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241110191000-EEng-20241108212500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-170" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">I don't buy into the "OhButIfWeDon'tThereWillBeEndlessArgumentOnEachArticle" reasoning</q></dd> <dd>See, we're well past the "there might be argument" stage. The <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Geraldo_Perez/Archive_11#New_question" title="User talk:Geraldo Perez/Archive 11">re</a>-<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MPFitz1968/Archive_8#Girl_Meets_World" title="User talk:MPFitz1968/Archive 8">pet</a>-<a href="/wiki/User_talk:IJBall/Archive_36#Saved_by_the_Bell" title="User talk:IJBall/Archive 36">i</a>-<a href="/wiki/User_talk:IJBall/Archive_28#MOS_issue,_concerning_comma_after_the_%22from%22_year_in_a_from-to_construct" title="User talk:IJBall/Archive 28">tive</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:IJBall/Archive_37#List_of_Backstage_episodes" title="User talk:IJBall/Archive 37">pro</a>-<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Geraldo_Perez/Archive_25#Simonrankin" title="User talk:Geraldo Perez/Archive 25">tract</a>-<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Geraldo_Perez/Archive_33#Date_ranges" title="User talk:Geraldo Perez/Archive 33">ed</a> <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_Girl_Meets_World_episodes#Proposal_to_adhere_to_the_Manual_of_Style_in_the_article" title="Talk:List of Girl Meets World episodes">arguing</a> began long ago.</dd> <dd>Also, as I said at the outset, MOS already includes greentext confirmation of a range datecomma: between October 6, 1997, and May 20, 2002. There is no "new rule"; however, as Hey man im josh says, additional <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">clarity on the MOS pages could be beneficial</q>.</dd> <dd>Ping priors <a href="/wiki/User:Geraldo_Perez" title="User:Geraldo Perez">Geraldo Perez</a> <a href="/wiki/User:MPFitz1968" title="User:MPFitz1968">MPFitz1968</a> <a href="/wiki/User:YoungForever" title="User:YoungForever">YoungForever</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Mz7" title="User:Mz7">Mz7</a> <a href="/wiki/User:HandsomeFella" title="User:HandsomeFella">HandsomeFella</a>, IJBall is no longer around. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241111003300-EEng-20241110191000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-171" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>+<a href="/wiki/User:JohnFromPinckney" title="User:JohnFromPinckney">JohnFromPinckney</a> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241111004700-EEng-20241110191000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-172" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>MLA style: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://style.mla.org/commas-in-date-ranges/">[5]</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The exhibit ran from June 2, 1995, to April 4, 1996, in New York.</q></li></ul> <dl><dd>AP style: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://apstylebook.com/ask_the_editors/style_guidance">[6]</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">between Feb. 1, 2021, and Feb. 22, 2023, the...</q></dd> <dd>When asked if from November 3, 2021 to November 30, 2022. needs a comma, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Commas/faq0108.html">CMOS adds</a> APA, AMA, Microsoft, and Apple guides would all also <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">tell you to use that second comma</q>; <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">the year is parenthetical ... this usage is relatively straightforward</q>. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Hyphenation_Expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Hyphenation Expert (page does not exist)">Hyphenation Expert</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hyphenation_Expert" title="User talk:Hyphenation Expert">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Hyphenation_Expert-20241110014500-EEng-20241108212500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-173" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Amaury (if their view has been correctly described by the OP) is just flat-out wrong. Bracketing commas always come in pairs (in WP writing, even if some journalistic style guides like to drop the second ones); unless: A) the second one has been replaced by some other punctuation in the sentence such as a semicolon, or a terminal period/full stop or question mark; or B) the second one would come at the end of a sentence fragment that doesn't take terminal punctuation, such as a table header or image caption, in which case no punctuation is used there at all, obviously.</dd> <dd>Yes: from October 12, 2012, to September 25, 2015.</dd> <dd>Yes: moved from Los Gatos, California, to Reno, Nevada, in 2021</dd> <dd>No: from October 12, 2012 to September 25, 2015.</dd> <dd>No: moved from Los Gatos, California to Reno, Nevada in 2021</dd> <dd>Point A above is important. January 1, 2023,–January 1, 2024 should be January 1, 2023 – January 1, 2024 specifically because the second comma bracketing "2023" has been replaced by alternative punctuation (en dash, and a spaced one in this case because the elements on either side of it are complex not single-string; see <a href="/wiki/MOS:DASH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DASH">MOS:DASH</a>). But this has no implications of any kind with regard to the spelled out version January 1, 2024, to January 1, 2024. That is, the argument "<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">January 1, 2023,–January 1, 2024</q> would be incorrect, which means <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">January 1, 2024, to January 1, 2024</q> is also incorrect</blockquote>" is nonsensical, a confusion of two different but superficially somewhat similar things to which different rules apply. It's like writing "I is hungry is ungrammatical, thus She is hungry must also be ungrammatical."Anyway, there is nothing even faintly new about this discussion. This is pure rehash of long-settled questions and has introduced no new argument, evidence, or other material to consider. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241112004100-EEng-20241108212500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-174" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Bracketing commas always come in pairs [etc]</q> – Sure, if they're "bracketing"; you're just taking for granted that they are. I say that the commas in September 5, 2017 and Los Angeles, California aren't part of any "bracketing", but rather are just separators -- lonely, workaday, unpaired, non-bracketing separators. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241112073500-SMcCandlish-20241112004100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-175" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>That's not the view of the MOS, though. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241112095600-EEng-20241112073500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-176" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>MOS doesn't take a position on the theoretical bases of the stylistic practices it recommends; it just recommends. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241112223400-Gawaon-20241112095600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-177" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>They're defined as bracketing commas by our MoS (and by basic linguistic logic[<a href="#NoteOfFooting">*</a>]). There really isn't anything else under discussion here (and should not be). Style discussions on WP keep getting lost way out in the weeds with people's tempers flaring because they try to bring in external "rules", and personal subjective preferences, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Lies_Ms._Snodgrass_told_you" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Lies Ms. Snodgrass told you">what they were taught in middle school</a> (by a prescriptivist non-linguist) two generations ago, and how people at their job prefer to write, and what some third-party style guide they like better says instead, and etc. It's all just distracting and confusing noise. Cf. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOT#FORUM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOT">WP:NOT#FORUM</a>. This page doesn't exist for debating how you wished academic writing worked, or why some MoS line item would be subjectively better your preferred way. If you can't make a strongly defensible case for an objective improvement to consistency and comprehensibility for readers, then <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT">MoS definitely should not be changed to suit your whims</a>. Its value is in its stability, its concision compared to other style guides, its consistency (especially strong avoidance of making exceptions that are not effectively required by all of mainstream writing practice), and its focus on reader understanding of the material above any traditionalist, prescriptivist, nationalistic, or "expedientist" sentiments.Our punctuation system works perfectly fine on this particular comma-usage question, and is engineered for clarity. It serves that purpose well; the comma-avoidant alternative would not, and rather would make for many confusing constructions, for no gain of any objective kind. WP's style also agrees with the majority of practice in academic style guides and publications using them. So, to propose a change to this would require a really overwhelming case for doing so, based on real evidence of the superiority (somehow) of the alternative and proof that most of the style guides that are influential on MoS (not journalism and governmentese and fiction-writing ones) had changed on this question. Once in a while that happens (e.g., dropping of both the commas around "Jr." and "Sr."; increased acceptance of singular-they; avoidance of he/him/his as generic; etc.). WP eventually adopts such provable changes in English usage patterns, after they have become well-established in contemporary academic writing and the style guides for it. That's not happening with regard to this matter and is not likely to happen.[*] In more detail: They serve a parenthesizing function, by which what is between the commas is a post hoc clarifying modifier of what precedes it, and can often be omitted in a clearer context. That makes it parethetical by definition. In "We are hiring Anne, Bob, and Carol", these commas are not bracketing (parethesizing); no element of this can be removed without a loss of significant information or a grammatical problem (regardless of context). In "Her son, Daniel, is coming over for dinner tonight" and "They left Portland, Oregon, in 2004", all of these commas bracket parenthetical constructions which are necessary only in specific contexts. If you already know the son's name, you don't need to be told it; if you are in Oregon, you probably won't need the state specified (unless Maine was just now under discussion).In a particular context, something of this form might have all its parts become non-removable in a specific sentence (e.g., if I tell you "I'm going on vacation starting November 20", you probably do not need the year included; but the year is usually needed for more distant times, e.g. in "Mark Twain died on April 21, 1910, in Redding, Connecticut" you do need the year, except perhaps in a paragraph all about the events of 1910). But the underlying grammatical form is still parenthetical. We would not write an incidentally, contextually non-optional case in an inconsistent format. That would be very confusing for readers and editors alike. We know it would be confusing because a rather similar (and not particularly useful) distinction has unfortunately solidified in Modern English, with "Her son Daniel is coming over" conveying a different meaning (there is more than one son) from "Her son, Daniel, is coming over" (there is only one son). Various readers and even experienced editors often have trouble with this and get it wrong, but we need to get it right because this is universal across English dialects and registers ("Her son, Daniel is coming over", with only one comma, is erroneous in all of them, regardless which meaning was intended). By contrast, there is no dialect or register in which "The company was founded in Houston, Texas on January 3, 2015 by Chris O'Blivion" is required; it's simply a "save every character-space possible" preference of certain publishers' house styles. WP is not among them because it is harder to parse correctly without re-reading after all the comma-killing. I.e., we have an objective reason of reader comprehensibility to not write that lazy way. There are lots and lots of sloppy things done in journalese, bureaucatese, and marketingese that WP doesn't do, for good reasons. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241113031600-EEng-20241112073500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-178" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I'm certainly not going to read all that (and I imagine few will), but please help me ... Is there anywhere in there where you explain why the same reasoning doesn't apply to DMY dates i.e. if the year is a "post hoc clarifying modifier", why do DMY folks write 5 May 2015 was clear instead of 5 May, 2015, was clear? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241113044800-SMcCandlish-20241113031600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-179" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>In all seriousness, Sandy, I'd really be interested to hear your answer on this. But please, keep it under 10,000 words. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241114180700-EEng-20241113044800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-180" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Says the one with the longest user-talk page across all WMF projects, LOL. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241114213500-EEng-20241114180700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-181" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>But then, my talk page isn't all one post. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241114224500-SMcCandlish-20241114213500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-182" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>It's purely convention. Human language isn't a programming language and is not entirely logical or consistent. The "5 May 2015" format simply doesn't use commas at all (not in much of any professional writing, anyway). It's not WP's role to invent styles that are virtually non-existent in external reality, though where competing styles do exist in our register of writing ("May 5, 2015, was clear" vs. "May 5, 2015 was clear"; or "5 May 2015 was clear" vs. "5th May 2015 was clear" vs. "the 5th of May 2015 was clear"), we do have an interest in normalizing to the version that makes the most sense for our technical and reader needs (thus much of MoS, especially <a href="/wiki/MOS:NUM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NUM">MOS:NUM</a>). Various clearly parenthetical constructions also only optionally take commas in pairs, and the shorter they are the less likely we are to use those commas in modern writing ("They moved, in 2015, to Bremen" vs. "They moved in 2015 to Bremen"). Parentheticals are often also punctuated with round brackets (thus their other name, parentheses) or with dashes, simply as alternative conventions with a bit of difference in emphasis level. But all of these also come in pairs when used as parenthesizing punctuation.What's being sought here is an inconsistent variance from this pairing pattern if and only if the marks used happen to be commas instead of something else, and only when the content in question is a date or a place. That's a complicated and unnecessary rule that <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT">MoS not only doesn't need but affirmatively should not have</a>. There is no reason to do it, because writing "May 5, 2015 was clear" isn't a style required or conventionalized in any dialect or register of English (simply a very optional hyper-expediency approach), it has significant costs to reader comprehensibility, and it's directly inconsistent with all other use of bracketing commas (no one with any sense would write "They moved, in 2015 to Bremen" – it takes either no commas or two). — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241114213500-EEng-20241113044800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-183" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">It's purely convention</q> – Thank you. So if you want to argue that good usage has or has not adopted New Convention B in addition to (or in replacement of) Old Convention A, that's fine. But all this stuff about bracketing and appositives is just smoke and mirrors.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>And as for MOSBLOAT, in point of fact loosening up on this issue would be achieved by simply dropping everything in the Comments column in the date formats table:</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><table class="wikitable"> <caption>Acceptable date formats </caption> <tbody><tr> <th style="width:40pt;">General use </th> <th style="width:40pt;">Only in limited situations where brevity is helpful<a href="#cite_note-brevity-6">[a]</a> </th> <th>Comments </th></tr> <tr> <td>2 September 2001 </td> <td>2 Sep 2001 </td> <td> A comma doesn't follow the year unless otherwise required by context: <div><ul><li>The 5 May 1922 meeting was cancelled.</li><li>Except Jones, who left London on 5 March 1847, every delegate attended the signing.</li></ul></div> </td></tr> <tr> <td>September 2, 2001 </td> <td>Sep 2, 2001 </td> <td> A comma follows the year unless <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Commas" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">other punctuation obviates it</a>: <div><ul><li>The weather on March 12, 2005, was clear and warm.</li><li>Everyone remembers July 20, 1969 – when humans first landed on the Moon. </li></ul></div> </td></tr></tbody></table></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>So that would be a definite deflation, not bloat. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241114224500-SMcCandlish-20241114213500-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-184" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It would also lo<s>o</s>se useful information, though. Many people know the conventions mentioned in the comments already, but not everybody does. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241115083900-EEng-20241114224500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-185" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If you mean "lose" information, that's not a problem. Unlike articles, our behind-the-scenes guidelines don't aspire to teach readers / editors general knowledge. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng">E</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng">Eng</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-EEng-20241116152800-Gawaon-20241115083900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:28, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-186" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Not general, just what's needed to successfully edit Wikipedia. Which apparently includes these rules for comma placement, otherwise this discussion wouldn't have started. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241116155300-EEng-20241116152800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:53, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-187" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>That EEng, by his own admission, has refused to read the argument presented, explains why he did not understand it. His lack of understanding doesn't mystically make the argument wrong. And the fact that a practice exists in English by convention does not somehow make it devoid of logic or reason, much less of practical effect. Most of the workings of our language, spoken and written, have logic and practicality to them (some eroded a bit by language change), yet all of our language also exists as it does by convention. EEng has somehow confused "It is this way by convention" for "It has no reason, thus can be undone or replaced with impunity". They are not equivalent. EEng asked why the "12 March 2005" format lacks commas, and the answer is that it is not conventional to include them in that format. (There are many, especially numeric, formats of things that are typographically done particular ways, not always consistent with other approaches to conveying essentially the same information. Most of them even have alternatives that some individuals like better, yet <a href="/wiki/MOS:NUM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NUM">MOS:NUM</a> has in virtually every case settled on the single conventionalized one that is most clear.) This "no commas" fact of DMY format has no implications of any kind for commas in any other format, nor (to get to the heart of the present matter) for why, when one comma is placed before the year in "March 12, 2005" MDY format, a second one follows (unless replaced by an alternative, like a sentence-ending "."). These are all entirely severable questions, so it is not cogent to seize upon one's inference in regard to the answer to one of these questions as dispositive in any way with regard to the handling of any other.<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Unlike articles, our behind-the-scenes guidelines don't aspire to teach readers / editors general knowledge</q>: That's correct; they exist to ensure that our editors produce material of maximum intelligibility and other usability for readers (and secondarily to stop editors fighting with each other over trivia). The proposal to write "On March 12, 2005 Elbonian troops invaded Narnia" is inimical to that goal, by introducing confusingly ambiguous syntax (the more complex the sentence the harder it becomes to figure out WTF the sentence structure even is when half the bracketing commas go missing, but even this simplistic example is hopelessly broken). Another way of putting this is that context always requires that second comma (or obviating alternative) because the inclusion of the first comma has the result that for some subset of readers every such construction lacking the second will be syntactically and often enough semantically confusing (generally because commas serve multiple purposes in English).Finally, there is a tension between making MoS concise and making it both understandable and serving its dual purposes of improving WP readability and reducing editorial conflict. We know from long history that our editors for years got into confused, confusing, and angry pissing matches about date formatting, with resultant chaos in mainspace. (Those date-format disputes are in fact why MoS is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CTOP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CTOP">WP:CTOP</a> in the first place.) So, removing the column of clarity about when to use commas with dates is the last thing we should do, since it would be guaranteed to cause a recurrence of conflict and confusion about what to do with dates. MoS resurrecting anew any long-settled "style war" is the opposite of its goal. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121114600-EEng-20241114224500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:46, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-188" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> Notes <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239543626"><div class="reflist reflist-lower-alpha"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-brevity-6"><a href="#cite_ref-brevity_6-0">^</a> For use in tables, infoboxes, references, etc. Only certain citation styles use abbreviated date formats. By default, Wikipedia does not abbreviate dates. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Citation_style" title="Wikipedia:Citing sources">Use a consistent citation style within any one article.</a> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(21)"><h2 id="Citation_templates_and_MOS:RANGE" data-mw-thread-id="h-Citation_templates_and_MOS:RANGE-20241111072500">Citation templates and MOS:RANGE</h2><span id='ooui-php-253' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-David_Eppstein-20241111072500-Citation_templates_and_MOS:RANGE">12 days ago</a>1 comment1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-21 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-21"> MOS:RANGE says to space the en-dash in page ranges with hyphenated page numbers like "12-1 – 12-24", but if this is attempted in a citation template, the template code strips out the spacing. Either the MOS or the templates need to be fixed to be consistent with each other. I've started a discussion at <a href="/wiki/Help_talk:Citation_Style_1#MOS:RANGE_violation" title="Help talk:Citation Style 1">Help talk:Citation Style 1#MOS:RANGE violation</a>; please participate if you have an opinion. —<a href="/wiki/User:David_Eppstein" title="User:David Eppstein">David Eppstein</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Eppstein" title="User talk:David Eppstein">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-David_Eppstein-20241111072500-Citation_templates_and_MOS:RANGE" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-189" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(22)"><h2 id="Capitalisation_of_acronyms_that_are_the_name_of_an_organisation" data-mw-thread-id="h-Capitalisation_of_acronyms_that_are_the_name_of_an_organisation-20241112133700">Capitalisation of acronyms that are the name of an organisation</h2><span id='ooui-php-254' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241115210900-Thryduulf-20241113044400">8 days ago</a>5 comments3 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-22 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-22"> At <a href="/wiki/Talk:National_Union_of_Rail,_Maritime_and_Transport_Workers#Requested_move_12_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers">Talk:National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers#Requested move 12 November 2024</a> it is proposed to move <a href="/wiki/Associated_Society_of_Locomotive_Engineers_and_Firemen" class="mw-redirect" title="Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen">Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen</a> to <a href="/wiki/ASLEF" title="ASLEF">ASLEF</a>. While the acronym is very clearly the most common form, how it is capitalised varies between ASLEF and Aslef (the former is official and used in very roughly 2/3rds of independent news publications). When spoken it is uniformly a word (/æz.lɛf/). I've not found what the manual of style has to say about this (I presume it does have something about it, it's bound to have come up before). <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Thryduulf-20241112133700-Capitalisation_of_acronyms_that_are_the_name_of_an_organisation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-190" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>In US English, such things maintain full capitalization (eg: NASA, OPEC). I think the usage of ordinary proper noun capitalization is generally becoming more common in British English. However, if your "very roughly 2/3rds of independent news publications" is correct, then usage for this organization would seem to still be ASLEF. --<a href="/wiki/User:Khajidha" title="User:Khajidha">User:Khajidha</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Khajidha" title="User talk:Khajidha">talk</a>) (<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Khajidha" title="Special:Contributions/Khajidha">contributions</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Khajidha-20241112134400-Thryduulf-20241112133700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-191" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Has nothing to do with American versus other dialects. Reducing proper acronyms from "ASLEF" style to "Aslef" as if they are non-acronym words is simply a habit of some particular news publishers, in the UK, in the US, and elsewhere (they write "FBI" and "UN" but "Nasa" and "Unesco"). It is habit WP does not use, as it is rarely found in academic writing, and is often confusing and irrational (e.g. when the same publishers write "Aids" for "AIDS", when disease names are not proper nouns (it's like capitalizing "Horse" and "Burritos" and "Television"). The "Aslef" style is further contra-indicated by various acronyms sometimes being prounced as word-acronyms and sometimes as initialisms, depending on the speakers background. No acronyms take lower case unless virtually all dictionaries of English agree that they have been re-interpreted by most speakers as words not acronyms and are no longer written uppercase (thus "laser", "radar", "scuba"); in these cases it's all-lowercase, no initial capital.People really, really need to stop proposing changes based on their personal preference just because they can find some publications that agree with their preferences. WP does not care what newspapers or marketing materials or bureuacratese or fiction-writing or non-academic nonfiction lean toward. We do what is predominant in academic style guides and the books and journals that follow them. (Unless we have a really compelling reason to do otherwise, such as having to choose a what-is-best-for-reader-clarity decision when those style guides broadly contradict each other, or when we have a technical requirement to deal with). This situation is not going to change, because an encyclopedia is a form of academic work, and the writing style provides parsing precision and interpretational clarity that other styles lack. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241113035700-Khajidha-20241112134400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-192" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I don't understand why you wrote most of that? I wasn't proposing any change, and expressed no preferences. The manual of style has different thresholds and defaults for what to do when usage in reliable sources is inconsistent in different contexts. I didn't know what the manual of style says about this circumstance, so I looked but failed to find it (it was subsequently linked in the RM). So I asked here what the guidance is and Khajidha concisely answered my question without any diatribes. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Thryduulf-20241113044400-SMcCandlish-20241113035700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-193" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Khajidha mis-answered the question. Repeat: this has nothing to do with American versus other dialects. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241115210900-Thryduulf-20241113044400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:09, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-194" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(23)"><h2 id="Dyslexia_font?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Dyslexia_font?-20241115065200">Dyslexia font?</h2><span id='ooui-php-255' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121123400-Uwappa-20241116045400">2 days ago</a>10 comments5 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-23 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-23"> Is there any font available in wikipedia that can be called by CSS such as: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/OpenDyslexic" title="OpenDyslexic">OpenDyslexic</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Dyslexie" title="Dyslexie">Dyslexie</a></li></ul> <a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Uwappa" title="User talk:Uwappa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Uwappa-20241115065200-Dyslexia_font?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:52, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-195" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dyslexic_readers" title="Wikipedia:Dyslexic readers">Wikipedia:Dyslexic readers</a>. Personally I didn't find that it helped, but good luck. <a href="/wiki/User:SchreiberBike" title="User:SchreiberBike">SchreiberBike </a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SchreiberBike#top" title="User talk:SchreiberBike"> ⌨ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SchreiberBike-20241115203700-Uwappa-20241115065200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-196" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DYX" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DYX">WP:DYX</a> seems outdated. I do not see 'Fonts' in preferences. <a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Uwappa" title="User talk:Uwappa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Uwappa-20241116012100-SchreiberBike-20241115203700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-197" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Yep, that's out of date. I've raised the question on that talk page. Anybody else got ideas? If not here, perhaps <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse" title="Wikipedia:Teahouse">Wikipedia:Teahouse</a> has ideas. <a href="/wiki/User:SchreiberBike" title="User:SchreiberBike">SchreiberBike </a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SchreiberBike#top" title="User talk:SchreiberBike"> ⌨ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SchreiberBike-20241116024300-Uwappa-20241116012100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:43, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-198" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:SchreiberBike" title="User:SchreiberBike">SchreiberBike</a>: It's not in preferences, and as far as I know (my records go back to about 2010), it never has been. It's a configuration setting that is independent of preferences: as the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DYX" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DYX">WP:DYX</a> page <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dyslexic_readers&oldid=722482493">formerly said</a> (I don't understand why <a href="/wiki/User:This,_that_and_the_other" title="User:This, that and the other">This, that and the other</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:This,_that_and_the_other" title="User talk:This, that and the other">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/This,_that_and_the_other" title="Special:Contributions/This, that and the other">contribs</a>) <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dyslexic_readers&diff=prev&oldid=722482530">removed it</a>), it's done through the cogwheel next to the word "Languages". This is in the expected position in the left sidebar for four of the installed skins - Modern, MonoBook, Timeless and Vector legacy (2010). For three other skins, it's different: <ul><li>For Colugne Blue (which not many people still use), the setting may exist but I can't find it</li> <li>For MinervaNeue (i.e. most mobile users) there is no setting</li> <li>For Vector 2022, it's there but is more difficult to find (as are many other things): you need to look just above the "Read / Edit / View history" tabs, where you should find a box that shows a strange Asian character, a number, the word "languages" and a down arrow. Click that down arrow, and the cogwheel is revealed after "+ Add languages" at the bottom right of the dropdown.</li></ul></dd> <dd>Having located the cogwheel, click it and then proceed as per WP:DYX instructions 2 through 6 inclusive. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64">Redrose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Redrose64-20241116111800-SchreiberBike-20241116024300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-199" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Found it and successfully set the font to OpenDyslexic.</dd> <dd>That is eh... well hidden. <a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Uwappa" title="User talk:Uwappa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Uwappa-20241116135200-Redrose64-20241116111800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dyslexic_readers&diff=prev&oldid=1257778856">amended</a> the WP:DYX page. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64">Redrose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Redrose64-20241116162700-Uwappa-20241116135200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:27, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-201" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"></div> The whole process should be simpler: <ol><li>My preference: OpenDyslexic is the default font for Wikipedia. Yes, that is all pages for everybody. Wikipedians can opt for another font in preferences. IP users have no choice. This will benefit the large majority of dyslexics that are not wikipedians.</li> <li>Wikipedians can opt in for Dyslexic font in preferences. No solution for the vast vast majority of IP dyslexics.</li> <li>For happy few, the current solution: install dyslexic font on own device, create your own CSS. That will benefit the very few dyslexics that are Wikipedians, know how to install a font and 'speak' CSS.</li></ol> <a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Uwappa" title="User talk:Uwappa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Uwappa-20241116045400-Dyslexia_font?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:54, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-202" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64">Redrose64</a> you will notice that you can actually click the cogwheel in numbered list item 1 on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DYX" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DYX">WP:DYX</a> itself - no need to go locating anything! <a href="/wiki/User:This,_that_and_the_other" title="User:This, that and the other">This, that and the other</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:This,_that_and_the_other" title="User talk:This, that and the other">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-This,_that_and_the_other-20241118064200-Uwappa-20241116045400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-203" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Uwappa" title="User:Uwappa">Uwappa</a>: To take your numbered points in not their original order: 2) That's already the case, except "no solution for ... IP dyslexics" isn't really true; the "cog-wheel" menu discussed above is available to logged-out users. The problem is that it's hard to find. 3) This is additionally already the case. Anyone can install that font, system-wide, and have their browser impose it universally. This takes a smidgin of technical figuring-out, but anyone dyslexic who finds that font helpful has it in their best interests to figure that out, because really close to zero sites on the entire Web are going to be doing what they'd like done, so it will have to be done by local and overriding personal imposition. 1) As someone who's mildly dyslexic, I have to say I detest the OpenDyslexic font, and the earlier ones it's based on, as general reading fonts. As a decorative display font for things like flyers, OpenDyslexic is a nifty neo-<a href="/wiki/Art_Nouveau" title="Art Nouveau">Nouveau</a> font, and I've actually used it before with that aesthetic in mind. But for general reading, I think I'd rather just gouge my own eyes out. I don't find it helpful in the least, and at smaller than heading sizes, it slows my reading pace by about 50%. Not everyone's ability issues are identical, even if they fall within the same general/overgeneralized classification. So, the idea of imposing this font on everyone by default is a non-starter; it'd be like requiring everyone to wear a hearing aid (turned up loud at that) even if their hearing is acute. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121123400-Uwappa-20241116045400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-204" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(24)"><h2 id="RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions_(crore,_lakh,_etc.)" data-mw-thread-id="h-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions_(crore,_lakh,_etc.)-20241116162700">RfC Indian numbering conventions (crore, lakh, etc.)</h2><span id='ooui-php-256' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121115700-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions_(crore,_lakh,_etc.)">2 days ago</a>4 comments3 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-24 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-24"> <div class="boilerplate discussion-archived mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-progressive-subtle, #f5f3ef); color: var(--color-base, inherit); overflow:auto; margin: 1em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-subtle, #aaa)"> <div class="boilerplate-header"> <dl><dd>The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows. <dl><dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1235781174">.mw-parser-output .hmbox-outer{margin-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .hmbox-inner{display:inline-block;color:var(--color-base,#202122);border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-interactive-subtle,#f8f9fa);margin-right:0.5em;padding:0.3em 0.5em}</style><div role="note" class="hmbox-outer resolved"><div class="hmbox-inner"><noscript><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Purple_arrow_right.svg/20px-Purple_arrow_right.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 20px;height: 20px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Purple_arrow_right.svg/20px-Purple_arrow_right.svg.png" data-alt="" data-width="20" data-height="20" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Purple_arrow_right.svg/30px-Purple_arrow_right.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Purple_arrow_right.svg/40px-Purple_arrow_right.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element">  Moved to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers § RfC Indian numbering conventions</a></div></div>Marking this closed and moved, to forestall further <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TALKFORK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TALKFORK">WP:TALKFORKing</a>. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121115700-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions_(crore,_lakh,_etc.)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-205" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <hr> </div> I am revisiting an issue that was last brought up 6 years ago <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_157#RfC_on_use_of_%22crore%22">1</a> and settled without a strong consensus. I think we should avoid using Indian numbering conventions unless it is needed for context. For instance, if we want to list the box office take of an Indian movie, don't use "crore", use "millions". This isn't about disrespecting a culture, it's about using internationally favored notation and unit conventions. We should use "millions" instead of "crore" for the same reason we favor meters over feet. There is no reason that India-related articles should be an enclave of Indian conventions. People who are not Indian will struggle with these things, it will weaken Wikipedia's role as an information tool for everyone. This is not the same thing as currency. It is appropriate to list an Indian movie's box office take in rupees. Providing a US$ conversion is optional, but a good idea since the US dollar is widely used around the world as a reserve currency. But write it as "millions of rupees", not "crores of rupees". <a href="/wiki/User:Kurzon" title="User:Kurzon">Kurzon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kurzon" title="User talk:Kurzon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Kurzon-20241116162700-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions_(crore,_lakh,_etc.)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:27, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-206" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Kurzon" title="User:Kurzon">Kurzon</a>: Why are you bringing this up here, and not at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers</a>? Also, don't jump straight for a full-blown thirty-day formal RfC without first exhausting the suggestions at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE">WP:RFCBEFORE</a> - and when you do, you should link the places where discussion was tried. Third, when you do use the <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Rfc" title="Template:Rfc">rfc</a>}}</code> tag, you must also specify at least one <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFCCAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFCCAT">RfC category</a>, to prevent the big red error message that you got <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1257779531#Rfc_Indian_numbering_conventions_(crore,_lakh,_etc.)" title="Special:PermanentLink/1257779531">here</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64">Redrose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Redrose64-20241116163600-Kurzon-20241116162700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:36, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-207" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Now at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#RfC Indian numbering conventions</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64">Redrose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Redrose64-20241116200600-Kurzon-20241116162700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:06, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-208" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> <div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div> </div><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(25)"><h2 id="Should_reference_titles_have_spelling_corrected?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Should_reference_titles_have_spelling_corrected?-20241116193200">Should reference titles have spelling corrected?</h2><span id='ooui-php-257' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121120100-David_Eppstein-20241118071800">2 days ago</a>22 comments9 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-25 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-25"> I read <a href="/wiki/MOS:PMC" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:PMC">MOS:PMC</a> to say that spelling errors in the titles of referenced works can be silently corrected. This seems like a problem to me—it sacrifices the accuracy of our citations, makes way for disputes about language variations and spellings aligned with different populations and political alignments, obfuscates trends in spelling, and makes way for good-faith errors like changing "whisky" to "whiskey", all for no apparent reason. How does it help Wikipedia if the title of a referenced work is overwritten with a better one? ꧁<a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a>꧂ <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Zanahary-20241116193200-Should_reference_titles_have_spelling_corrected?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:32, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-209" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The titles of references should be treated as if they are direct quotations from the source text (which is essentially what they are), and reproduced exactly as they are shown in the source. I make an exception for capitalisation, but not for national spelling differences. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64">Redrose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Redrose64-20241116200500-Zanahary-20241116193200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-210" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>No, their spelling should be left as is. That's also better for findability, if nothing else. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Gawaon-20241117120700-Zanahary-20241116193200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-211" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>I hope no one thinks <a href="/wiki/The_Compleat_Angler" title="The Compleat Angler">The Compleat Angler</a> should be corrected to The Complete Angler. <a href="/wiki/User:Largoplazo" title="User:Largoplazo">Largoplazo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Largoplazo" title="User talk:Largoplazo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Largoplazo-20241120125200-Zanahary-20241116193200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:52, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-212" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>I updated the guideline per the clear consensus here—for some reason I was not prompted to enter an edit summary. ꧁<a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a>꧂ <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Zanahary-20241120162200-Zanahary-20241116193200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:22, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-213" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> There was a discussion earlier this year now archived at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_228#Silently_correct_an_error_if_it's_in_a_title?" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 228">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 228#Silently correct an error if it's in a title?</a> It's hard to say there was a definite consensus on anything. For my practice, in an obvious mistake in a newspaper headline or similar, I make the correction, but leave a note in the wikitext (like <code></code>) and use an edit summary like "Spelling fix, McLver → McIver, as explained at <a href="/wiki/MOS:TITLETYPOCON" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TITLETYPOCON">MOS:TITLETYPOCON</a>". That's not perfect, but it's the best I've come up with. I'd only do that when it is a clear error. <a href="/wiki/User:SchreiberBike" title="User:SchreiberBike">SchreiberBike </a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SchreiberBike#top" title="User talk:SchreiberBike"> ⌨ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SchreiberBike-20241117230200-Should_reference_titles_have_spelling_corrected?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:02, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-214" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>With respect and curiosity, what good does it do to edit the title of a source at all? ꧁<a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a>꧂ <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Zanahary-20241118064300-SchreiberBike-20241117230200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-215" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a>: Per <a href="/wiki/MOS:TYPOFIX" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TYPOFIX">MOS:TYPOFIX</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">"insignificant spelling and typographic errors should simply be silently corrected"</q>, and if we don't fix them, the errors propagate into other places. The example I used above of "Mclver", which should be "McIver" (a lower case "L" when an upper case "i" is intended, but it looks the same in a sans-serif font) occurred 33 times in Wikipedia several months ago when I ran that check. Many of those were in the titles of references, and many of those titles had also been copy-pasted into our article text. I often see editors fix such errors referencing MOS:TYPOFIX and I think that makes it harder to find the source if the URL doesn't work, so I hoped to find a better solution. <a href="/wiki/User:SchreiberBike" title="User:SchreiberBike">SchreiberBike </a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SchreiberBike#top" title="User talk:SchreiberBike"> ⌨ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SchreiberBike-20241118225200-Zanahary-20241118064300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-216" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>This is a discussion proposing a change to the MOS—what exactly is the nature of McLver? Where does that typo come from? I’m talking about changing a source’s title (its actual published title) in references because the title as accurately reproduced contains an error. ꧁<a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a>꧂ <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Zanahary-20241118225700-SchreiberBike-20241118225200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:57, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-217" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/McIver" title="McIver">McIver</a> and MacIver are both reasonably common names. "Mclver" and "Maclver" are understandable errors because they look the same in some fonts. I'm using that as an example of a series of corrections I made fairly recently, many of which were the actual published titles of references. <a href="/wiki/User:SchreiberBike" title="User:SchreiberBike">SchreiberBike </a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SchreiberBike#top" title="User talk:SchreiberBike"> ⌨ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SchreiberBike-20241118231400-Zanahary-20241118225700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-218" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>How do you know that the original source errantly used a lowercase L? Is it a typographic thing you’re able to discern by looking at the letterforms of a scan?</dd> <dd>In general, I want to distinguish between typographic errors and variations, which I think can be standardized with silent correction, and spelling errors, which I think should remain in place. ꧁<a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a>꧂ <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Zanahary-20241118234600-SchreiberBike-20241118231400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:46, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-219" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>These were almost all on live websites. The quickest way is to <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1249182868">.mw-parser-output .keyboard-key{border:1px solid #aaa;border-radius:0.2em;box-shadow:0.1em 0.1em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.1);background-color:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa);background-image:linear-gradient(to bottom,var(--background-color-neutral,#eaecf0),var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa),var(--background-color-neutral,#eaecf0));color:var(--color-base,#202122);padding:0.1em 0.3em;font-family:inherit;font-size:0.85em}</style><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">Ctrl</kbd>+<kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">f</kbd>, then type an <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">L</kbd>, and see if it finds an "L". The other way is reading the articles. Also, I've found no use of "Mclver" or "Maclver" as a correctly spelled English word. <a href="/wiki/User:SchreiberBike" title="User:SchreiberBike">SchreiberBike </a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SchreiberBike#top" title="User talk:SchreiberBike"> ⌨ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SchreiberBike-20241119001200-Zanahary-20241118234600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-220" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>On the websites of original publication, or on websites cataloguing or referring to the publication? This seems like an edge case, ambiguously between a spelling error and a typographic error. For the matter of spelling errors in titles like "Ukranian Detriot" instead of "Ukrainian Detroit" <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.vice.com/en/article/this-is-ukranian-detriot-can-bandcamp-save-xore-from-war/">here</a>, what is your position on a policy that advises against silent correction? ꧁<a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a>꧂ <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Zanahary-20241119002600-SchreiberBike-20241119001200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-221" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> I for one often search for reference titles as exact strings, to find copies of the reference (for instance when they are unlinked or when an old link has gone dead) or to search databases for missing metadata for the title. Changing the spelling to fix errors or according to national preferences (<a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Descartes_snark&diff=prev&oldid=1257108131">a recently-encountered example</a>) makes this much more difficult. —<a href="/wiki/User:David_Eppstein" title="User:David Eppstein">David Eppstein</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Eppstein" title="User talk:David Eppstein">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-David_Eppstein-20241118071800-Should_reference_titles_have_spelling_corrected?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-222" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I agree with your general point. Just a pity that the example you chose undermines the point, since the edit you dislike did in fact correctly reproduce the original title of the paper (which is written in en.en). --<a href="/wiki/User:JMF" title="User:JMF">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JMF" title="User talk:JMF">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-JMF-20241118110100-David_Eppstein-20241118071800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:01, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-223" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The edit shows a correction to the title of the paper, from a previously-incorrect title whose incorrectness in fact significantly slowed my search for the correct metadata. —<a href="/wiki/User:David_Eppstein" title="User:David Eppstein">David Eppstein</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Eppstein" title="User talk:David Eppstein">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-David_Eppstein-20241118175200-JMF-20241118110100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-224" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Ah, you mean it was the editor who first created that article in 2010 who erroneously transcribed the title. Easily done, especially with the uninvited "help" of autocorrect. I doubt it was done with malice aforethought. Ok, I can see that I'm in a hole now, so I'll stop digging. <a href="/wiki/User:JMF" title="User:JMF">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JMF" title="User talk:JMF">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-JMF-20241118200700-David_Eppstein-20241118175200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-225" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Hey, no hole! Would everyone in this discussion support clarifying prose in the MOS that advises not to inaccurately "correct" the titles of sources when reproducing in references? ꧁<a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a>꧂ <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Zanahary-20241118222800-JMF-20241118200700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-226" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>For corrections involving spelling or wording, I would support that. I think corrections like changing curly quotes to straight, or changing the capitalization (especially from all caps) are ok. —<a href="/wiki/User:David_Eppstein" title="User:David Eppstein">David Eppstein</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Eppstein" title="User talk:David Eppstein">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-David_Eppstein-20241118224900-Zanahary-20241118222800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-227" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I agree; that doesn’t damage searchability and punctuation can vary across references anyways, especially in pre-digital sources. ꧁<a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a>꧂ <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Zanahary-20241118230000-David_Eppstein-20241118224900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-228" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I agree with SchreiberBike (and others) that we may correct minor typographical errors - but judiciously and with care. No bots "fixing" titles under any circumstances. <a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"> Mr.choppers | </a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers">✎ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Mr.choppers-20241120044600-Zanahary-20241118230000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-229" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Don't correct spelling errors; it impedes actually finding the source by copy-pasting the title to search with. Just stick [sic] on the end (but don't use <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Sic" title="Template:Sic">sic</a>}}</code> inside a citation template, or it'll pollute the citation metadata). Making capitalization and punctuation consistent is fine, since search engines ignore those factors. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121120100-David_Eppstein-20241118071800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-230" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(26)"><h2 id='Address_future-tense_verbs_in_"tense"_section?' data-mw-thread-id='h-Address_future-tense_verbs_in_"tense"_section?-20241120202000'>Address future-tense verbs in "tense" section?</h2><span id='ooui-php-258' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-SMcCandlish-20241121121000-Anachronist-20241120202000">2 days ago</a>2 comments2 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-26 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-26"> <a href="/wiki/MOS:TENSE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TENSE">MOS:TENSE</a> discusses the use of present and past tense, but I also frequently run across future tense that seem inappropriate. Here's a contrived example: "An observer will see that an object will fall when dropped." The prose is more compelling by removing the future-tense verb "will" and rephrasing as present tense: "An observer sees that an object falls when dropped." It's also more concise. I've been cleaning these up when I run across them. I have rarely enountered a situation where using "will" is appropriate to describe facts. Facts are facts, they are true now, not just in the future. Related to this would be the article about <a href="/wiki/Zero_conditional" class="mw-redirect" title="Zero conditional">zero conditional</a> grammar. These cases, also, are better expressed with the zero-conditional construction and eliminating the words "will" or "won't". It seems natural to use the word "will" in speech, but isn't necessary in writing. I've also seen clumsy constructions that mix all tenses together, as in "The city government will now no longer collect sales taxes." ~<a href="/wiki/User:Anachronist" title="User:Anachronist">Anachronist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anachronist" title="User talk:Anachronist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-Anachronist-20241120202000-Address_future-tense_verbs_in_%22tense%22_section?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-231" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Does this come up so often and with so much editorial conflict that we actually need a rule about it? If not, then we really <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT">need not to have a rule about it</a>. Most of what you've raised above just seems like general matters of poor versus better writing, and unlikely to spark debate. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BETTER" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BETTER">WP:BETTER</a> might be a reasonable place to put something about this, though. It's MoS-adjacent without being rules people may think they need to absorb or are apt to cite and squabble about. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#c-SMcCandlish-20241121121000-Anachronist-20241120202000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-232" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl>    </section></div> <noscript><img src="https://login.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&mobile=1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&oldid=1258752923">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&oldid=1258752923</a>"</div></div> </div> <div class="post-content" id="page-secondary-actions"> </div> </main> <footer class="mw-footer minerva-footer" role="contentinfo"> <a class="last-modified-bar" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&action=history"> <div class="post-content last-modified-bar__content"> View edit history of this page. </div> </a> <div class="post-content footer-content"> <div id="p-lang"> <h4>Languages</h4> <section> <ul id="p-variants" class="minerva-languages"></ul> <ul class="minerva-languages"></ul> This page is not available in other languages. </section> </div> <div class="minerva-footer-logo"><img src="/static/images/mobile/copyright/wikipedia-wordmark-en.svg" alt="Wikipedia" width="120" height="18" style="width: 7.5em; height: 1.125em;"/> </div> <ul id="footer-info" class="footer-info hlist hlist-separated"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 21 November 2024, at 12:35 (UTC).</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">This version of the page has been <a href="/wiki/Help:Page_history" title="Help:Page history">revised</a>. 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