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only?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Online_platforms_only?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Term_was_coined_before_2023" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Term_was_coined_before_2023"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Term was coined before 2023</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Term_was_coined_before_2023-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Unity_Engine" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Unity_Engine"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Unity Engine</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul 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id="toc-Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>Distinction between Enshittification and profitability</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Requested_move_12_December_2023" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Requested_move_12_December_2023"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>Requested move 12 December 2023</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">8 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Requested_move_12_December_2023-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Short_description" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Short_description"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>Short description</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Short_description-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-TikTok" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#TikTok"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>TikTok</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-TikTok-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Other_languages" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Other_languages"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>Other languages</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Other_languages-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Digg." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Digg."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>Digg.</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Digg.-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Examples_in_the_lead" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Examples_in_the_lead"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>Examples in the lead</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Examples_in_the_lead-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">16</span> <span>Struggle to see how the term's definition starting the page - could be not wrong</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17</span> <span>"Infinite growth" listed at Redirects for discussion</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">18</span> <span>Related idea: (intimate serendipity to) filtered sludge</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">19</span> <span>Steve Allen called it "Dumbth"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">20</span> <span>St. Rev used the word 9 years before Doctorow</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">17 comments</span> <ul id="toc-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> 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vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Financialization"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">23</span> <span>Financialization</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Financialization-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Deviantart's_enshittification" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Deviantart's_enshittification"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">24</span> <span>Deviantart's enshittification</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Deviantart's_enshittification-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_described_as_examples...)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_described_as_examples...)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">25</span> <span>Let's get rid of that list in the beginning (A variety of platforms have been described as examples...)</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_described_as_examples...)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Lacking_citations" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Lacking_citations"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">26</span> <span>Lacking citations</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Lacking_citations-sublist" 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If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Internet_culture" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Internet culture">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Internet culture</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Internet culture</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Internet culture</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Internet culture</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-unknown"><a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_Internet_culture_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance Internet culture articles">???</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has not yet received a rating on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Internet_culture/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Internet culture/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="padding:0"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="background:transparent;width:100%"><tbody><tr><th style="text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0">WikiProject Internet culture To-do:</th></tr><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:5px;background-color:white;border:1px solid #c0c090;margin-top:5px"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · ";font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li:last-child::after{content:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:first-child::before{content:" (";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:last-child::after{content:")";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol{counter-reset:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><div class="hlist plainlinks" style="text-align:center;font-size:90%;"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Internet_culture%2Fto_do&action=edit">edit</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Internet_culture%2Fto_do&action=history">history</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Internet_culture%2Fto_do&action=watch">watch</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Internet_culture%2Fto_do&action=purge">purge</a></li></ul> </div> <table style="background:none;color:inherit;width:auto;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="vertical-align:top;"> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/75px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/100px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span><br/><div style="width: 55px; height: 0px;"></div> </td> <td> <div style="position: relative; left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; z-index: 15;">Here are some tasks awaiting attention: <ul style="font-size: 100%; margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0px 0.3em 25px;"> <li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles" title="Wikipedia:Requested articles">Article requests</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Arts_and_entertainment/Internet_and_tech_culture" title="Wikipedia:Requested articles/Arts and entertainment/Internet and tech culture">View all requested internet culture articles</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles" title="Wikipedia:Writing better articles">Expand</a></i> :</b> Pick an article from <a href="/wiki/Category:Stub-Class_Internet_culture_articles" title="Category:Stub-Class Internet culture articles">here</a> or <a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_Internet_culture_articles" title="Category:Start-Class Internet culture articles">here</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_pictures" title="Wikipedia:Requested pictures">Photo</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Category:Internet_culture_articles_needing_images" title="Category:Internet culture articles needing images">Category:Internet culture articles needing images</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub" title="Wikipedia:Stub">Stubs</a></i> :</b> All stubs are located <a href="/wiki/Category:Stub-Class_Internet_culture_articles" title="Category:Stub-Class Internet culture articles">here</a></li><li><b><i>Other</i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Category:Internet_self-classification_codes" title="Category:Internet self-classification codes">Category:Internet self-classification codes</a> (!?); Try to get <a href="/wiki/YouTube" title="YouTube">YouTube</a> to FA; Tag all articles you find with {{WikiProject Internet culture}}<br/> <ul><li><b>See also <a href="/wiki/Category:Internet_culture_articles_needing_attention" title="Category:Internet culture articles needing attention">Category:Internet culture articles needing attention</a></b></li></ul> </li></ul> </div> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table id="refideas-anchor" class="tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_package_editors.png" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Nuvola_apps_package_editors.png/50px-Nuvola_apps_package_editors.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Nuvola_apps_package_editors.png/75px-Nuvola_apps_package_editors.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Nuvola_apps_package_editors.png/100px-Nuvola_apps_package_editors.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:<br/> <ul><li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/">https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/11/users-advertisers-we-are-all-trapped-in-the-enshittification-of-the-internet">https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/11/users-advertisers-we-are-all-trapped-in-the-enshittification-of-the-internet</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/06/reddit-blackout/">https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/06/reddit-blackout/</a><br/></li></ul></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Did_you_know" title="Did you know"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/40px-Symbol_question.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="41" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/60px-Symbol_question.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/80px-Symbol_question.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">A fact from <b>Enshittification</b> appeared on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> in the <b><a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know" title="Template:Did you know">Did you know</a></b> column on 23 October 2023 (<a class="external text" href="https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?project=en.wikipedia.org&mutevalidations=true&start=2023-10-13&end=2023-11-02&pages=Enshittification">check views</a>). The text of the entry was as follows: <ul><li><i>Did you know</i>... that according to <a href="/wiki/Cory_Doctorow" title="Cory Doctorow">Cory Doctorow</a>, <b><a href="/wiki/Enshittification" title="Enshittification">enshittification</a></b> is how platforms die?</li></ul> A record of the entry may be seen at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Recent_additions/2023/October#23_October_2023" title="Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/October">Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/October</a>. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at <a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Enshittification" title="Template:Did you know nominations/Enshittification">Template:Did you know nominations/Enshittification</a>.</td><td class="mbox-imageright"><figure class="mw-halign-right" typeof="mw:File"><span title="Wikipedia"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg/40px-Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="37" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg/60px-Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg/80px-Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="103" data-file-height="94"/></span><figcaption>Wikipedia</figcaption></figure></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-style" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Edit-clear.svg/40px-Edit-clear.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Edit-clear.svg/60px-Edit-clear.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Edit-clear.svg/80px-Edit-clear.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1235681985">.mw-parser-output .side-box{margin:4px 0;box-sizing:border-box;border:1px solid #aaa;font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em;background-color:var(--background-color-interactive-subtle,#f8f9fa);display:flow-root}.mw-parser-output .side-box-abovebelow,.mw-parser-output .side-box-text{padding:0.25em 0.9em}.mw-parser-output .side-box-image{padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .side-box-imageright{padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .side-box-flex{display:flex;align-items:center}.mw-parser-output .side-box-text{flex:1;min-width:0}}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .side-box{width:238px}.mw-parser-output .side-box-right{clear:right;float:right;margin-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .side-box-left{margin-right:1em}}</style><div class="side-box metadata side-box-right"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style> <div class="side-box-flex"> <div class="side-box-text plainlist"><b>Tip:</b> Anchors are <a href="/wiki/Case_sensitivity" title="Case sensitivity">case-sensitive</a> in most browsers.</div></div> </div> <p>This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist. </p> <ul><li>[[Twitter under Elon Musk#Limitations on viewing tweets|restrictions]] The anchor (#Limitations on viewing tweets) <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1186179976" title="Special:Diff/1186179976">has been deleted</a>.</li> <li>[[Twitter under Elon Musk#API changes|closure of the service's API]] The anchor (#API changes) <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1187808821" title="Special:Diff/1187808821">has been deleted</a>.</li></ul> <div style="float:right;font-size:90%;">Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kanashimi" title="User talk:Kanashimi">Reporting errors</a></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-move" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg/36px-Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg.png" decoding="async" width="36" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg/54px-Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg/72px-Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="36" data-file-height="40"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">On 12 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves" title="Wikipedia:Requested moves">moved</a> to <a href="/wiki/Platform_decay" class="mw-redirect" title="Platform decay">Platform decay</a>. The result of <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1190708415#Requested_move_12_December_2023" title="Special:PermanentLink/1190708415">the discussion</a> was <b>not moved</b>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Not_for_Wired" data-mw-thread-id="h-Not_for_Wired-20230915150700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Not_for_Wired-20230915150700"></span>Not for Wired<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Not_for_Wired-20230915150700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Not for Wired"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Doctorow-20230915150700-Not_for_Wired"></span>While Wired did reprint my "Tiktok's Enshittification" essay, they did so under my Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license; the actual original publication was on my blog, pluralistic.net: </p><p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys">https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Doctorow" title="User:Doctorow">Doctorow</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doctorow" title="User talk:Doctorow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Doctorow-20230915150700-Not_for_Wired" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Doctorow-20230915150700-Not_for_Wired"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Doctorow-20230915150700-Not_for_Wired"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_Anome-20230915151000-Doctorow-20230915150700"></span>Thanks. I've updated the article accordingly. — <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome" title="User talk:The Anome">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-The_Anome-20230915151000-Doctorow-20230915150700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_Anome-20230915151000-Doctorow-20230915150700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_Anome-20230915151000-Doctorow-20230915150700"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Did_you_know_nomination" data-mw-thread-id="h-Did_you_know_nomination-20230917105500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Did_you_know_nomination-20230917105500"></span>Did you know nomination<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Did_you_know_nomination-20230917105500"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Did you know nomination"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div style="background-color: #F3F9FF; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;"> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lightburst-20231016230900-Did_you_know_nomination"></span>The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. <span style="color:red"><b>Please do not modify this page.</b></span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as <a class="mw-selflink selflink">this nomination's talk page</a>, <a class="mw-selflink selflink">the article's talk page</a> or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know" title="Wikipedia talk:Did you know">Wikipedia talk:Did you know</a>), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. <b>No further edits should be made to this page</b>.</i></dd></dl> <p>The result was: <b>promoted</b> by <a href="/wiki/User:Lightburst#top" title="User:Lightburst">Lightburst</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lightburst" title="User talk:Lightburst">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Lightburst-20231016230900-Did_you_know_nomination" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:09, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lightburst-20231016230900-Did_you_know_nomination"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lightburst-20231016230900-Did_you_know_nomination"></span><br/> </p><p><span></span> </p> <div class="dyk-nompage-links plainlinks"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thriley-20230917105500-Did_you_know_nomination"></span>( <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1129693374"><div class="hlist inline"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ADid_you_know_nominations%2FEnshittification&action=edit">Comment</a> or <a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Enshittification" title="Template:Did you know nominations/Enshittification">view</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enshittification&action=history">Article history</a></li></ul></div> )</div> <ul><li>... that according to <a href="/wiki/Cory_Doctorow" title="Cory Doctorow">Cory Doctorow</a>, <b><a href="/wiki/Enshittification" title="Enshittification">enshittification</a></b> is how platforms die? <small>Source: "Here is how platforms die: First, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die." <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/">Wired</a></small> <ul><li><i>Reviewed</i>: <a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Chancellor_Hut" title="Template:Did you know nominations/Chancellor Hut">Template:Did you know nominations/Chancellor Hut</a></li> <li><i>Comment</i>: Alternate hooks welcome.</li></ul></li></ul> <p><small>Moved to mainspace by <a href="/wiki/User:Thriley" title="User:Thriley">Thriley</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thriley" title="User talk:Thriley">talk</a>), <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome" title="User talk:The Anome">talk</a>), and <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grayfell" title="User talk:Grayfell">talk</a>). Nominated by <a href="/wiki/User:Thriley" title="User:Thriley">Thriley</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thriley" title="User talk:Thriley">talk</a>) at <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Thriley-20230917105500-Did_you_know_nomination" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:55, 17 September 2023 (UTC)</a>. Post-promotion hook changes for this nom <a href="/wiki/User:GalliumBot#darn" title="User:GalliumBot">will be logged</a> at <a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Did_you_know_nominations/Enshittification&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template talk:Did you know nominations/Enshittification (page does not exist)">Template talk:Did you know nominations/Enshittification</a>; consider <a href="/wiki/Help:Watchlist" title="Help:Watchlist">watching</a> this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.</small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thriley-20230917105500-Did_you_know_nomination"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thriley-20230917105500-Did_you_know_nomination"></span> </p> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vaticidalprophet-20230917224800-Thriley-20230917105500"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_possible_vote.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Symbol_possible_vote.svg/16px-Symbol_possible_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Symbol_possible_vote.svg/24px-Symbol_possible_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Symbol_possible_vote.svg/32px-Symbol_possible_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span> This one'll do numbers! The article isn't <i>quite</i> there yet, though -- it has an unresolved clarification needed tag, and the rent-seeking claim is uncited. Once these get resolved, the article should be (while not passing GAN anytime soon) DYK-able. I'm mulling over the large quote in a short article -- proportionately it raises what's arguably a copyright question -- but I'm not sure if it should be perceived differently to use of an NFCC image in an equivalent-length article. (I also wonder about general-reader understanding of decontextualized "two-sided markets", but this isn't a DYK issue.) <a href="/wiki/User:Vaticidalprophet" title="User:Vaticidalprophet"><b style="color:black">Vaticidal</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vaticidalprophet" title="User talk:Vaticidalprophet"><b style="color:#66023C">prophet</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Vaticidalprophet-20230917224800-Thriley-20230917105500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vaticidalprophet-20230917224800-Thriley-20230917105500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vaticidalprophet-20230917224800-Thriley-20230917105500"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-StonyBrook-20230922101300-Thriley-20230917105500"></span>May I propose a tweak to the hook:</li> <li>... that according to <a href="/wiki/Cory_Doctorow" title="Cory Doctorow">Cory Doctorow</a>, <b><a href="/wiki/Enshittification" title="Enshittification">enshittification</a></b> inevitably leads to death? <b><a href="/wiki/User:StonyBrook" title="User:StonyBrook"><span style="color: #617aa3">Stony</span><span style="color: darkblue;">Brook</span></a></b> <sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:StonyBrook" title="User talk:StonyBrook"><i>babble</i></a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-StonyBrook-20230922101300-Thriley-20230917105500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:13, 22 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-StonyBrook-20230922101300-Thriley-20230917105500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-StonyBrook-20230922101300-Thriley-20230917105500"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vaticidalprophet-20231016100000-StonyBrook-20230922101300"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_confirmed.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Symbol_confirmed.svg/16px-Symbol_confirmed.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Symbol_confirmed.svg/24px-Symbol_confirmed.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Symbol_confirmed.svg/32px-Symbol_confirmed.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span> While Thriley hasn't replied over here, taking a look at the article, both issues are resolved. I approve both hooks. <a href="/wiki/User:Vaticidalprophet" title="User:Vaticidalprophet"><b style="color:black">Vaticidal</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vaticidalprophet" title="User talk:Vaticidalprophet"><b style="color:#66023C">prophet</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Vaticidalprophet-20231016100000-StonyBrook-20230922101300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:00, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vaticidalprophet-20231016100000-StonyBrook-20230922101300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vaticidalprophet-20231016100000-StonyBrook-20230922101300"></span></li></ul></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lightburst-20231016151700-Thriley-20230917105500"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_possible_vote.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Symbol_possible_vote.svg/16px-Symbol_possible_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Symbol_possible_vote.svg/24px-Symbol_possible_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Symbol_possible_vote.svg/32px-Symbol_possible_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span> <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Vaticidalprophet" title="User:Vaticidalprophet">Vaticidalprophet</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Thriley" title="User:Thriley">Thriley</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a>, and <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a>:</span> We have <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REFCLUTTER" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REFCLUTTER">WP:REFCLUTTER</a> eight citations following the lead sentence and nine following another sentence under the examples section. It is distracting but not a DYK fail. The article does have <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BAREURLS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BAREURLS">WP:BAREURLS</a> which must be fixed. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DYKCITE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DYKCITE">WP:DYKCITE</a> states that <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">Sources should be properly labelled; that is, not under an "External links" header, and not bare URLs</q>. I think my interpretation is correct, but if it is not, it is a best practice to format the references <a href="/wiki/MOS:REF" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:REF">MOS:REF</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Lightburst" title="User:Lightburst">Lightburst</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lightburst" title="User talk:Lightburst">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Lightburst-20231016151700-Thriley-20230917105500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:17, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lightburst-20231016151700-Thriley-20230917105500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lightburst-20231016151700-Thriley-20230917105500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_ed17-20231016195900-Lightburst-20231016151700"></span>I don't personally mind the ref clutter, given the sentence's content. However, you might consider combining all of them into one ref with bullet points for what each ref supports. In addition, I'd like to see that content be fully mirrored in the article body per <a href="/wiki/MOS:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:LEAD">MOS:LEAD</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:The_ed17" title="User:The ed17">Ed</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_ed17" title="User talk:The ed17">[talk]</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OMT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OMT">[OMT]</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-The_ed17-20231016195900-Lightburst-20231016151700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:59, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_ed17-20231016195900-Lightburst-20231016151700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_ed17-20231016195900-Lightburst-20231016151700"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lightburst-20231016210000-The_ed17-20231016195900"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:The_ed17" title="User:The ed17">The ed17</a>:</span> I will leave it to others since it is not a DYK issue. I see the references are formatted now. <a href="/wiki/User:Lightburst" title="User:Lightburst">Lightburst</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lightburst" title="User talk:Lightburst">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Lightburst-20231016210000-The_ed17-20231016195900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:00, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lightburst-20231016210000-The_ed17-20231016195900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lightburst-20231016210000-The_ed17-20231016195900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lightburst-20231016210500-Lightburst-20231016210000"></span>Last issue is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DYKHFC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DYKHFC">WP:DYKHFC</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The facts of the hook in the article should be cited no later than the end of the sentence in which they appear.</q>. right now the hook fact is in a block quote and I do not think that passes our requirement. Can it be separated out and cited end of sentence? <a href="/wiki/User:Lightburst" title="User:Lightburst">Lightburst</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lightburst" title="User talk:Lightburst">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Lightburst-20231016210500-Lightburst-20231016210000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lightburst-20231016210500-Lightburst-20231016210000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lightburst-20231016210500-Lightburst-20231016210000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lightburst-20231016230800-Lightburst-20231016210500"></span>I cited the hook fact in the article for expediency. <a href="/wiki/User:Lightburst" title="User:Lightburst">Lightburst</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lightburst" title="User talk:Lightburst">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Lightburst-20231016230800-Lightburst-20231016210500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:08, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lightburst-20231016230800-Lightburst-20231016210500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lightburst-20231016230800-Lightburst-20231016210500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Rent-seeking" data-mw-thread-id="h-Rent-seeking-20230925020600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Rent-seeking-20230925020600"></span>Rent-seeking<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Rent-seeking-20230925020600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Rent-seeking"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DMacks-20230925020600-Rent-seeking"></span>Googling around, lots of discussion threads make the connection between <a href="/wiki/Rent-seeking" title="Rent-seeking">rent-seeking</a> and enshittification, typically the former being the action or motivation and the latter being the effect on the end-users/consumers. Doctorow, refering<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1630256184639864833?s=20">[1]</a> to one of his podcasts<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://doctorow.medium.com/twiddler-1b5c9690cce6">[2]</a>, says "#enshittification, and how it is a pathology of digital platforms, distinct from the rent-seeking of the analog world that preceded it:". It's not clear whether that means he sees enshittification a distinctly modern digital version of rent-seeking, or a distinctly different kind of thing even though it might have some of the same hallmarks. And the twiddler link doesn't appear to use the exact term "rent-seeking" in order to figure it out. So without <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a> reading of that post, I think <a href="/wiki/Rent-seeking" title="Rent-seeking">rent-seeking</a> could be a SEEALSO (a main person who writes about enshittification makes some sort of explicit connection) but not an in-body comment. <a href="/wiki/User:DMacks" title="User:DMacks">DMacks</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DMacks" title="User talk:DMacks">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-DMacks-20230925020600-Rent-seeking" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:06, 25 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DMacks-20230925020600-Rent-seeking"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DMacks-20230925020600-Rent-seeking"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TucanHolmes-20231009130500-DMacks-20230925020600"></span>This topic is new and "hot" (active research topic, topic of discussion and scholarly debate), so there are still not that many sources making this connection (explicitly). The only (very recent!) source I know of is Yanis Varoufakis' <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/451795/technofeudalism-by-varoufakis-yanis/9781847927279">new book</a> discussing exactly this topic. I think it's prudent to wait a while for more reliable sources to appear before making the connection explicit in the article. A mention in the "See also" section is fine by me, since the two topics are obviously related (if not connected). <a href="/wiki/User:TucanHolmes" title="User:TucanHolmes"><span style="background-color: #eff6ff; color: #0645ad; padding: 2px 3px;">TucanHolmes</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TucanHolmes" title="User talk:TucanHolmes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-TucanHolmes-20231009130500-DMacks-20230925020600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:05, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TucanHolmes-20231009130500-DMacks-20230925020600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TucanHolmes-20231009130500-DMacks-20230925020600"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Online_platforms_only?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Online_platforms_only?-20231003074200"><span id="Online_platforms_only.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Online_platforms_only?-20231003074200"></span>Online platforms only?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Online_platforms_only?-20231003074200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Online platforms only?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Elettricompagna-20231003074200-Online_platforms_only?"></span>Does enshittification apply only to online platforms? I am not the first to suggest not (see Gilbert Grape). </p><p>Enshittification also occurs when major retailers move into a diverse market, undercut local stores on price, eliminate competition, cut back on customer service, increase prices, curtail choice via pay-to-play, and undercut the whole market by favoring their own in-house brands. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Elettricompagna&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Elettricompagna (page does not exist)">Elettricompagna</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Elettricompagna" title="User talk:Elettricompagna">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Elettricompagna-20231003074200-Online_platforms_only?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Elettricompagna-20231003074200-Online_platforms_only?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Elettricompagna-20231003074200-Online_platforms_only?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_Anome-20231016202700-Elettricompagna-20231003074200"></span>You're describing <a href="/wiki/Dumping" class="mw-disambig" title="Dumping">dumping</a> and <a href="/wiki/Anticompetitive_practices" class="mw-redirect" title="Anticompetitive practices">anticompetitive practices</a>. Enshittification explicitly relates to two-sided markets such as social media and online commerce platforms.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>I would imagine that enshittification could also happen to something like entirely offline like a <a href="/wiki/Farmer%27s_market" class="mw-redirect" title="Farmer's market">farmer's market</a> by first grinding down the buyers by charging admission fees, then the sellers by increasing pitch fees, until insufficient value is left to justify the market's continued existence. — <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome" title="User talk:The Anome">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-The_Anome-20231016202700-Elettricompagna-20231003074200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:27, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_Anome-20231016202700-Elettricompagna-20231003074200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_Anome-20231016202700-Elettricompagna-20231003074200"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Term_was_coined_before_2023" data-mw-thread-id="h-Term_was_coined_before_2023-20231005180700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Term_was_coined_before_2023-20231005180700"></span>Term was coined before 2023<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Term_was_coined_before_2023-20231005180700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Term was coined before 2023"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Funcrunch-20231005180700-Term_was_coined_before_2023"></span>Doctorow actually first used the term "enshittification" earlier than January 2023, in the November 2022 <a href="/wiki/Medium_(website)" title="Medium (website)">Medium</a> post "<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doctorow.medium.com/social-quitting-1ce85b67b456">Social Quitting</a>", which was <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://locusmag.com/2023/01/commentary-cory-doctorow-social-quitting/">later published</a> in the January 2023 issue of <a href="/wiki/Locus_(magazine)" title="Locus (magazine)"><i>Locus</i> magazine</a>. I remembered the earlier post because I <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://funcrunch.medium.com/enshittification-brilliant-word-to-describe-the-evolution-of-todays-social-media-hellscape-c35add4847a7">made a comment</a> on the brilliance of the term at that time. <a href="/wiki/User:Funcrunch" title="User:Funcrunch">Funcrunch</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Funcrunch" title="User talk:Funcrunch">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Funcrunch-20231005180700-Term_was_coined_before_2023" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:07, 5 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Funcrunch-20231005180700-Term_was_coined_before_2023"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Funcrunch-20231005180700-Term_was_coined_before_2023"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PK-WIKI-20231024023600-Funcrunch-20231005180700"></span>Added to article, thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:PK-WIKI" title="User:PK-WIKI">PK-WIKI</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PK-WIKI" title="User talk:PK-WIKI">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-PK-WIKI-20231024023600-Funcrunch-20231005180700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:36, 24 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PK-WIKI-20231024023600-Funcrunch-20231005180700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PK-WIKI-20231024023600-Funcrunch-20231005180700"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Unity_Engine" data-mw-thread-id="h-Unity_Engine-20231016202500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Unity_Engine-20231016202500"></span>Unity Engine<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Unity_Engine-20231016202500"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Unity Engine"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_Anome-20231016202500-Unity_Engine"></span>I've removed the material relating to Unity. While the move by Unity certainly qualifies for criticism as a highly customer-unfriendly move, Unity was not, as I understand it, operating a two-sided market in the sense used by Doctorow in his definition of the term. — <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome" title="User talk:The Anome">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-The_Anome-20231016202500-Unity_Engine" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_Anome-20231016202500-Unity_Engine"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_Anome-20231016202500-Unity_Engine"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2603:9002:206:9506:C09B:FC88:B56F:E90-20240119104400-The_Anome-20231016202500"></span>The Unity section was re-added, and I don't think it should have been. Unity didn't even go through with the proposed changes, so the incident is only "an idea that could have led to enshittification", which is just far too broad for a Wiki. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2603:9002:206:9506:C09B:FC88:B56F:E90" title="Special:Contributions/2603:9002:206:9506:C09B:FC88:B56F:E90">2603:9002:206:9506:C09B:FC88:B56F:E90</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2603:9002:206:9506:C09B:FC88:B56F:E90&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2603:9002:206:9506:C09B:FC88:B56F:E90 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-2603:9002:206:9506:C09B:FC88:B56F:E90-20240119104400-The_Anome-20231016202500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2603:9002:206:9506:C09B:FC88:B56F:E90-20240119104400-The_Anome-20231016202500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2603:9002:206:9506:C09B:FC88:B56F:E90-20240119104400-The_Anome-20231016202500"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Undue_weight_given_to_term" data-mw-thread-id="h-Undue_weight_given_to_term-20231026072500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Undue_weight_given_to_term-20231026072500"></span>Undue weight given to term<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Undue_weight_given_to_term-20231026072500"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Undue weight given to term"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Baspinga-20231026072500-Undue_weight_given_to_term"></span>This article concerns me as it takes a loosely defined and infrequently used term, and seeks to validate and expand on its definition, rather than simply inform. The article mixes and confuses the definitions for 'zombie acquisition' and 'platform decay', which are both pre-existing and better-understood terms (the latter being used by the attributed creator of the term 'enshittification' in this article: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/04/platforms-decay-lets-put-users-first">https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/04/platforms-decay-lets-put-users-first</a>). On the whole I feel that the article gives undue weight to the term 'enshittification', and reads to me like an advert for the work of the journalist that created it, and this isn't the purpose or function of Wikipedia. Interested to hear the thoughts of others! <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Baspinga&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Baspinga (page does not exist)">Baspinga</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Baspinga" title="User talk:Baspinga">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Baspinga-20231026072500-Undue_weight_given_to_term" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Baspinga-20231026072500-Undue_weight_given_to_term"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Baspinga-20231026072500-Undue_weight_given_to_term"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DFlhb-20231026091700-Baspinga-20231026072500"></span>On articles about neologisms (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WORDISSUBJECT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WORDISSUBJECT">WP:WORDISSUBJECT</a>), Wikipedia likes to add examples that are based wholly on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Original_research" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Original research">original research</a>, i.e. examples sourced to articles that don't even use the term at all. It's inevitable unless pagewatchers are vigilant. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WORDISSUBJECT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WORDISSUBJECT">WP:WORDISSUBJECT</a> articles also tend to veer, over time, away from being about the term, and it's a mistake that causes confusion among both readers and editors. Articles about neologisms <i>should</i> be about the term, because they should naturally contain discussion about how accurately the concept reflects reality, what exactly it encompasses, and contrast the frame of analysis embedded within the term to other frames of analysis applicable to the issue (there are plenty). Trying to add examples based on passing use in news articles is more akin to the cruft we see in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IPC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IPC">"In popular culture"</a> sections in other articles. What's useful, is illustrating what the term means in practice, which requires sources that bring up an example and discuss why and to what extent the term applies; we have such sources but we're not using them well. <a href="/wiki/User:DFlhb" title="User:DFlhb">DFlhb</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DFlhb" title="User talk:DFlhb">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-DFlhb-20231026091700-Baspinga-20231026072500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:17, 26 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DFlhb-20231026091700-Baspinga-20231026072500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DFlhb-20231026091700-Baspinga-20231026072500"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Enshittified_Gizmodo" data-mw-thread-id="h-Enshittified_Gizmodo-20231102163800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Enshittified_Gizmodo-20231102163800"></span>Enshittified Gizmodo<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Enshittified_Gizmodo-20231102163800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Enshittified Gizmodo"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tapac333-20231102163800-Enshittified_Gizmodo"></span>Company behind Gizmodo, Jalopnik and other media sites under their umbrella have deteriorated the user experience by introducing more slide-show articles versus long-form articles to increase their website's click count. Recently, the algorithm was changed to where there would be a pause after you hit next to hold users longer on each slide at the expense of the user experience. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Tapac333&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Tapac333 (page does not exist)">Tapac333</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tapac333&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Tapac333 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Tapac333-20231102163800-Enshittified_Gizmodo" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tapac333-20231102163800-Enshittified_Gizmodo"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tapac333-20231102163800-Enshittified_Gizmodo"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability" data-mw-thread-id="h-Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability-20231102164500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability-20231102164500"></span>Distinction between Enshittification and profitability<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability-20231102164500"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Distinction between Enshittification and profitability"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tapac333-20231102164500-Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability"></span>Typically, companies need to maintain a profit to exist. Therefore drive for profit needs to be part of the equation. What Enshittification represents is when the drive for profit supersedes the user experience, reducing the initial experience the platform provided. You end up with less, for more. </p><p>An example of platforms that balanced profit well so far without being enshittified: </p><p>1) Craigslist. I think the platform never tried to get between the users and the data flow. Apart from enacting a minimal fee for posting vehicles to combat fraudulent posts and to gain some profit, I feel like that platform still exists to serve the people with a similar experience they previously provided. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Tapac333&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Tapac333 (page does not exist)">Tapac333</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tapac333&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Tapac333 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Tapac333-20231102164500-Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:45, 2 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tapac333-20231102164500-Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tapac333-20231102164500-Distinction_between_Enshittification_and_profitability"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Requested_move_12_December_2023" data-mw-thread-id="h-Requested_move_12_December_2023-20231212182900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Requested_move_12_December_2023-20231212182900"></span>Requested move 12 December 2023<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Requested_move_12_December_2023-20231212182900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Requested move 12 December 2023"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lightoil-20231220015300-Requested_move_12_December_2023"></span>The following is a closed discussion of a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves" title="Wikipedia:Requested moves">requested move</a>. <span style="color:red"><b>Please do not modify it.</b></span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review" title="Wikipedia:Move review">move review</a> after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</i></dd></dl> <p>The result of the move request was: <b>not moved.</b> <small>(<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Closing_instructions#Closure_by_a_page_mover" title="Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions">closed by non-admin page mover</a>)</small> <a href="/wiki/User:Lightoil" title="User:Lightoil">Lightoil</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lightoil" title="User talk:Lightoil">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Lightoil-20231220015300-Requested_move_12_December_2023" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:53, 20 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lightoil-20231220015300-Requested_move_12_December_2023"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lightoil-20231220015300-Requested_move_12_December_2023"></span> </p> <hr/> <p><a href="/wiki/Enshittification" title="Enshittification"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Anonimski-20231212182900-Requested_move_12_December_2023"></span>Enshittification</a> → <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Platform_decay&redirect=no">Platform decay</a></span> – The article describes <b>platform decay</b>, but gives undue weight to a late 2022 buzzword, the author who coined it (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a>), and the some of the background of his coining of the synonym (which is, after all, a self-describing word: it relies on some of the synthetic characteristics of the English language). </p><p>It is, of course, relevant to mention the buzzword somewhere, and keep Enshittification as a redirect. As it looks like today, the beginning of the article feels like an over-verbose version of a page on Wiktionary or Urban Dictionary, coupled with some author/blogger promotion. Then it has several examples of platform decay where <i>only</i> Doctorow's perspective is given. I don't disagree with him, his input can be justified by all means, but he can't possibly be the one and only person who has made such remarks about the decline in quality of some products. It is a process that has been going on much earlier than the blog post where the word "enshittification" was first created. </p><p>Keeping the article under the Enshittification title will lead future editors to focus about two topics at the same time: platform decay and one specific author's perspective on platform decay. <a href="/wiki/User:Anonimski" title="User:Anonimski">Anonimski</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anonimski" title="User talk:Anonimski">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Anonimski-20231212182900-Requested_move_12_December_2023" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:29, 12 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Anonimski-20231212182900-Requested_move_12_December_2023"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Anonimski-20231212182900-Requested_move_12_December_2023"></span> </p> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_ed17-20231213034000-Anonimski-20231212182900"></span>Oppose</b> - buzzword or not, it looks an awful lot like enshittification is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">common name</a> at the moment. Perhaps that will change over time as more academic papers emerge, or we'll want to have a separate article on platform decay while leaving this one to speak to its use at a particular moment in time. (Also, I'm not convinced that there's an UNDUE problem, as Doctorow coined the word and popularized the associated phrase.) <a href="/wiki/User:The_ed17" title="User:The ed17">Ed</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_ed17" title="User talk:The ed17">[talk]</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OMT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OMT">[OMT]</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-The_ed17-20231213034000-Anonimski-20231212182900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_ed17-20231213034000-Anonimski-20231212182900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_ed17-20231213034000-Anonimski-20231212182900"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zxcvbnm-20231213100200-Anonimski-20231212182900"></span>Support</b> Per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GRATUITOUS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GRATUITOUS">WP:GRATUITOUS</a> - "Offensive material should be used only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available." Given that there is another fairly common name for it, we don't have to favor the more crude option as it is not required for the article to properly explain the subject. <a href="/wiki/User:Zxcvbnm" title="User:Zxcvbnm">ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zxcvbnm" title="User talk:Zxcvbnm">ᴛ</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Zxcvbnm-20231213100200-Anonimski-20231212182900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:02, 13 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zxcvbnm-20231213100200-Anonimski-20231212182900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zxcvbnm-20231213100200-Anonimski-20231212182900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zxcvbnm-20231213101100-Zxcvbnm-20231213100200"></span>There's also the fact that the word "enshittification" itself can potentially mean almost anything becoming "shittier", and has nothing specifically referring to websites or platforms. It's simply less informative to a person searching for an article about such a thing. <a href="/wiki/User:Zxcvbnm" title="User:Zxcvbnm">ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zxcvbnm" title="User talk:Zxcvbnm">ᴛ</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Zxcvbnm-20231213101100-Zxcvbnm-20231213100200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zxcvbnm-20231213101100-Zxcvbnm-20231213100200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zxcvbnm-20231213101100-Zxcvbnm-20231213100200"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Esolo5002-20231213214700-Anonimski-20231212182900"></span>Weak oppose</b> per <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=platform%20decay,Enshittification&hl=en">Google Trends</a> which shows Enshittification as a slight common name. Do think the article requires a cleanup and gives undue weight to the blogger, but that's not the job of a requested move.<a href="/wiki/User:Esolo5002" title="User:Esolo5002">Esolo5002</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Esolo5002" title="User talk:Esolo5002">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Esolo5002-20231213214700-Anonimski-20231212182900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:47, 13 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Esolo5002-20231213214700-Anonimski-20231212182900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Esolo5002-20231213214700-Anonimski-20231212182900"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_ed17-20231213220500-Esolo5002-20231213214700"></span>I'd also add that "platform decay" is used in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C23&q=%22platform+decay%22">other contexts</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:The_ed17" title="User:The ed17">Ed</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_ed17" title="User talk:The ed17">[talk]</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OMT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OMT">[OMT]</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-The_ed17-20231213220500-Esolo5002-20231213214700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:05, 13 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_ed17-20231213220500-Esolo5002-20231213214700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_ed17-20231213220500-Esolo5002-20231213214700"></span></li></ul></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rubinstein-20231216203400-Anonimski-20231212182900"></span>Oppose</b> - as others have noted Enshittification is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">common name</a> currently. I'd also invoke <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NORUSH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NORUSH">WP:NORUSH</a>- it remains to be seen if a term like platform decay will gain/regain status as a common name. There's no urgent reason to change it, and time will tell if the term's popularity is a fluke or will remain in common use for this.</li> <li><b>Oppose</b> - Enshittification is the common name right now. For example, I just encountered the term on a blog post (not by Cory Doctorow) which linked to this Wikipedia article. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Rubinstein&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Rubinstein (page does not exist)">Rubinstein</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rubinstein" title="User talk:Rubinstein">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Rubinstein-20231216203400-Anonimski-20231212182900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rubinstein-20231216203400-Anonimski-20231212182900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rubinstein-20231216203400-Anonimski-20231212182900"></span></li></ul> <div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div> </div><div style="clear:both;"></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Short_description" data-mw-thread-id="h-Short_description-20231230204600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Short_description-20231230204600"></span>Short description<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Short_description-20231230204600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Short description"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nsophiay-20231230204600-Short_description"></span>Can we remove the word 'greed' from the short description, which currently reads <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Systematic decline in quality due to greed</q>? IMO it's not accurate to attribute enshittification to greed when it's more a problem with the social media business model as a whole. That's up to debate though, so maybe we could remove that part altogether and say something like: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Systematic decline in online platform quality</q>? Open to suggestions. --<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-weight:bold;"><a href="/wiki/User:Nsophiay" title="User:Nsophiay">Nsophiay</a></span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nsophiay" title="User talk:Nsophiay">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Nsophiay-20231230204600-Short_description" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nsophiay-20231230204600-Short_description"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nsophiay-20231230204600-Short_description"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="TikTok" data-mw-thread-id="h-TikTok-20240111184500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-TikTok-20240111184500"></span>TikTok<span data-mw-comment-end="h-TikTok-20240111184500"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: TikTok"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lyeuhm-20240111184500-TikTok"></span>TikTok seems to be going down the route of Enshittification. </p><p>Between the addition of TikTok Shop being forced down everyone's throats every other video, plus constant scam ads and sponsorship. </p><p>Just curious if anyone else thinks it's worthy enough of being included, or, if people feel like it doesn't fall into it yet. </p><p>TikTok is also mentioned in the January 2023 edition of Wired that is referenced in the Definition. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Lyeuhm" title="User:Lyeuhm">Lyeuhm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lyeuhm" title="User talk:Lyeuhm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Lyeuhm-20240111184500-TikTok" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lyeuhm-20240111184500-TikTok"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lyeuhm-20240111184500-TikTok"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Other_languages" data-mw-thread-id="h-Other_languages-20240128110700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Other_languages-20240128110700"></span>Other languages<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Other_languages-20240128110700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Other languages"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Leagris-20240128110700-Other_languages"></span>It may be worth having this page available in other Wikipedia languages. </p><p>Would it be ok for these pages to propose alternate translations of the term Enshittification, even if such (proposed) translations are not yet in use or no citation is available yet because the term is very new? </p><p>I could think of a couple French versions of Enshittification: </p> <ul><li>Emmerdissement</li> <li>Emmerdification</li></ul> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Leagris" title="User:Leagris">Leagris</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Leagris&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Leagris (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Leagris-20240128110700-Other_languages" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Leagris-20240128110700-Other_languages"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Leagris-20240128110700-Other_languages"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_ed17-20240128182300-Leagris-20240128110700"></span>The English Wikipedia's policy on the reverse case is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TRANSLITERATE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TRANSLITERATE">WP:TRANSLITERATE</a>, but you'd have to check with e.g. the French Wikipedia's policies/guidelines to see if/how they differ. <a href="/wiki/User:The_ed17" title="User:The ed17">Ed</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_ed17" title="User talk:The ed17">[talk]</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OMT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OMT">[OMT]</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-The_ed17-20240128182300-Leagris-20240128110700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:23, 28 January 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_ed17-20240128182300-Leagris-20240128110700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_ed17-20240128182300-Leagris-20240128110700"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Digg." data-mw-thread-id="h-Digg.-20240204005900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Digg.-20240204005900"></span>Digg.<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Digg.-20240204005900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Digg."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ruby.Boulton-20240204005900-Digg."></span>Honestly is Digg not one of the bigger examples of this? Just totally wrecked their entire userbase and essentially propelled a different site to stardom, which in turn turned to this. Or did I just get old <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ruby.Boulton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ruby.Boulton (page does not exist)">Ruby.Boulton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ruby.Boulton" title="User talk:Ruby.Boulton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Ruby.Boulton-20240204005900-Digg." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:59, 4 February 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ruby.Boulton-20240204005900-Digg."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ruby.Boulton-20240204005900-Digg."></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grayfell-20240209215500-Ruby.Boulton-20240204005900"></span>Sure, but... There are many, many potential examples of enshittification. For Wikipedia articles, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOR">we need sources to spell it out for us</a>. If you have a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable source</a> which specifically mentions Digg and enshittification, please propose it. <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grayfell" title="User talk:Grayfell">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Grayfell-20240209215500-Ruby.Boulton-20240204005900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grayfell-20240209215500-Ruby.Boulton-20240204005900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grayfell-20240209215500-Ruby.Boulton-20240204005900"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Examples_in_the_lead" data-mw-thread-id="h-Examples_in_the_lead-20240209220800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Examples_in_the_lead-20240209220800"></span>Examples in the lead<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Examples_in_the_lead-20240209220800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: Examples in the lead"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grayfell-20240209220800-Examples_in_the_lead"></span>Since it's been a recurring issue, I'll explain my approach bit more here. Right now, (<a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1205532644" title="Special:PermanentLink/1205532644">revision 1205532644</a>), each of the examples mentioned in the lead is supported by its own subsection in the body of the article, each with multiple sources. This helps with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEADFOLLOWSBODY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEADFOLLOWSBODY">WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY</a>, and also helps prevent citations from getting too cluttered. To provide context and clarity, the article needs to explain <i>why</i> the term is being applied to all of these big tech companies. Examples need to be informative, and we shouldn't be adding examples based on broad mentions lacking context, or worse, our own preferences. Every example should be contextualized, and the body is the place to provide this context. <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grayfell" title="User talk:Grayfell">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Grayfell-20240209220800-Examples_in_the_lead" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grayfell-20240209220800-Examples_in_the_lead"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grayfell-20240209220800-Examples_in_the_lead"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Harryhenry1-20240711072700-Grayfell-20240209220800"></span>Agreed, I think we should just keep it to the most common examples cited. With a term like this it's easy for people to throw in any social media or tech company they have a problem with, even if it doesn't apply. <a href="/wiki/User:Harryhenry1" title="User:Harryhenry1">Harryhenry1</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Harryhenry1" title="User talk:Harryhenry1">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Harryhenry1-20240711072700-Grayfell-20240209220800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:27, 11 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Harryhenry1-20240711072700-Grayfell-20240209220800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Harryhenry1-20240711072700-Grayfell-20240209220800"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong" data-mw-thread-id="h-Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong-20240304222300"><span id="Struggle_to_see_how_the_term.27s_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong-20240304222300"></span>Struggle to see how the term's definition starting the page - could be not wrong<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong-20240304222300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: Struggle to see how the term's definition starting the page - could be not wrong"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-89.208.111.218-20240304222300-Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong"></span>Guys, </p><p>the page defines the term thus: "Enshittification is the pattern of decreasing quality of online platforms that function as two-sided markets". But i fail to see how could it be that </p><p>- say, _carrots_ could not be "enshittified". In fact, they really much are, as we speak, and for the last few decades: intensive agriculture, erosion of soil fertility (averaged worldwide) as observed by FAO, ever growing greed of both carrot producers as well as distributors, resulting in usage of ever so more exotic and often harmful in many ways fertilizers, preservers, etc - you name it; </p><p>- say, _personal relations_ could not be "enshittified". I definitely observe in my personal life how fellow citizens have become way more cynical, apathetic and self-centered than it was few decades ago, - on average. Personal relations definitely become shittier as a result; </p><p>- the term "enshittification", as per just above couple examples, - could in fact mean anything else, or anything other than, "degradation". When quality of something is decreasing, it means that that something - is degrading. Why invent a new word when we already have one meaning the same thing? </p><p>Just my 2 cents. Don't wanna wikipedia become _degraded_ by articles about, in essense, nothing substantial. Hope i'm wrong with the above, too; but what if i'm not? ;) <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/89.208.111.218" title="Special:Contributions/89.208.111.218">89.208.111.218</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:89.208.111.218&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:89.208.111.218 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-89.208.111.218-20240304222300-Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-89.208.111.218-20240304222300-Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-89.208.111.218-20240304222300-Struggle_to_see_how_the_term's_definition_starting_the_page_-_could_be_not_wrong"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M4yj40-20240422112200-89.208.111.218-20240304222300"></span>One might argue that Wikipedia articles that are written primarily as puff-pieces to advertise a specific author are an example of enshittification :P <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:M4yj40&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:M4yj40 (page does not exist)">M4yj40</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M4yj40" title="User talk:M4yj40">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-M4yj40-20240422112200-89.208.111.218-20240304222300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M4yj40-20240422112200-89.208.111.218-20240304222300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M4yj40-20240422112200-89.208.111.218-20240304222300"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-24.222.72.232-20241122023800-89.208.111.218-20240304222300"></span>Lately, this term is also used to include customer experiences with product modifications (more fillers, subpar ingredients, the redesigning of packaging to suggest more content but actually delivering less etc…). <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/24.222.72.232" title="Special:Contributions/24.222.72.232">24.222.72.232</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:24.222.72.232" title="User talk:24.222.72.232">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-24.222.72.232-20241122023800-89.208.111.218-20240304222300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-24.222.72.232-20241122023800-89.208.111.218-20240304222300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-24.222.72.232-20241122023800-89.208.111.218-20240304222300"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20240308211300"><span id=".22Infinite_growth.22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20240308211300"></span>"<a href="/wiki/Infinite_growth" class="mw-disambig" title="Infinite growth">Infinite growth</a>" listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">Redirects for discussion</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20240308211300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=17" title="Edit section: "Infinite growth" listed at Redirects for discussion"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Duckmather-20240308211300-"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"/></a></span> The redirect <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Infinite_growth&redirect=no">Infinite growth</a></span> has been listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">redirects for discussion</a> to determine whether its use and function meets the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect" title="Wikipedia:Redirect">redirect guidelines</a>. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_March_8#Infinite_growth" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 8">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 8 § Infinite growth</a></b> until a consensus is reached. <a href="/wiki/User:Duckmather" title="User:Duckmather">Duckmather</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Duckmather" title="User talk:Duckmather">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Duckmather-20240308211300-"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Duckmather-20240308211300-"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Duckmather-20240308211300-"Infinite_growth"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge" data-mw-thread-id="h-Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge-20240329161900"><span id="Related_idea:_.28intimate_serendipity_to.29_filtered_sludge"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge-20240329161900"></span>Related idea: (intimate serendipity to) filtered sludge<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge-20240329161900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=18" title="Edit section: Related idea: (intimate serendipity to) filtered sludge"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Reagle-20240329161900-Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge"></span>In 2015, I (<a href="/wiki/Joseph_M._Reagle_Jr." title="Joseph M. Reagle Jr.">Joseph M. Reagle Jr.</a>) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://readingthecomments.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/dtys4tyk/release/2?from=28387&to=28843">wrote</a> of some similar in concept and name to enshitification: "filtered sludge" and the cycle of platforms moving from "intimate serendipity to filtered sludge." </p><p>> Many social platforms move from intimate serendipity toward filtered sludge, and some manage it better than others. As investors begin to demand a return on their investment, the sites themselves are tempted to alienate their users with ever more intrusive filtering and ads. This is the life cycle of a social media platform. </p><p>-<a href="/wiki/User:Reagle" title="User:Reagle">Reagle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Reagle" title="User talk:Reagle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Reagle-20240329161900-Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:19, 29 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Reagle-20240329161900-Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Reagle-20240329161900-Related_idea:_(intimate_serendipity_to)_filtered_sludge"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth"" data-mw-thread-id="h-Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth"-20240419025600"><span id="Steve_Allen_called_it_.22Dumbth.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth"-20240419025600"></span>Steve Allen called it "Dumbth"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth"-20240419025600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=19" title="Edit section: Steve Allen called it "Dumbth""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SoftwareThing-20240419025600-Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth""></span>In Steve Allen's novel "Dumbth" he describes the core values of "enshitification," I should note here, underscoring the fact that the concept of decline of competence in the economic arena is a growing, global problem. </p><p>I wonder if the extant article might benefit from including a link to the article covering Dumbth, the novel. <a href="/wiki/User:SoftwareThing" title="User:SoftwareThing">SoftwareThing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SoftwareThing" title="User talk:SoftwareThing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-SoftwareThing-20240419025600-Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:56, 19 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SoftwareThing-20240419025600-Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SoftwareThing-20240419025600-Steve_Allen_called_it_"Dumbth""></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grayfell-20240419030900-SoftwareThing-20240419025600"></span>Which article do you mean? Unfortunately, the book isn't discussed very much on Wikipedia. If you know of a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable source</a> which discusses the book, the article on <a href="/wiki/Steve_Allen" title="Steve Allen">Steve Allen</a> would probably benefit from it. If there are multiple sources on the book, <a href="/w/index.php?title=Dumbth&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Dumbth (page does not exist)">Dumbth</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WTAF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WTAF">could warrant its own article</a>. Without more context, it's difficult to know how to incorporate that into this article.</dd> <dd>As an aside, considering Allen's well-know aversion to profanity, linking his work to the article on enshittification is a bit ironic, but we shouldn't let that stop us. <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grayfell" title="User talk:Grayfell">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Grayfell-20240419030900-SoftwareThing-20240419025600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grayfell-20240419030900-SoftwareThing-20240419025600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grayfell-20240419030900-SoftwareThing-20240419025600"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow" data-mw-thread-id="h-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow-20240422061200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow-20240422061200"></span>St. Rev used the word 9 years before Doctorow<span data-mw-comment-end="h-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow-20240422061200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=20" title="Edit section: St. Rev used the word 9 years before Doctorow"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JapanYoshi-20240422061200-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"></span>A Twitter user called St. Rev used the word “enshittification” in 2013 <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://twitter.com/St_Rev/status/403007315118276608">as observable here</a>, yet the history section does not mention anything from before Cory Doctorow “popularized the term” in 2022. Why not? <a href="/wiki/User:JapanYoshi" title="User:JapanYoshi">JapanYoshi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JapanYoshi" title="User talk:JapanYoshi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-JapanYoshi-20240422061200-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JapanYoshi-20240422061200-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JapanYoshi-20240422061200-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grayfell-20240422062900-JapanYoshi-20240422061200"></span>As an encyclopedia (and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTDICTIONARY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTDICTIONARY">not a dictionary</a>) the concept of enshittification as an encyclopedia topic and the word "Enshittification" are two separate things. We generally don't cite old <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UGC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UGC">WP:UGC</a> like tweets or blog posts or whatever without a specific reason, and that reason needs to come from a reliable source.</dd> <dd>Even if we cite that tweet, it looks like St. Rev is just saying that The Onion's web design became shitty. They were probably right about that, but we need context. "Enshittification", as defined by the article, means something different from that. So does a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable source</a> establish that this has the same meaning? Right now, all of the reliable sources in the article are discussing a term for a specific concept which was coined by Doctorow. <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grayfell" title="User talk:Grayfell">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Grayfell-20240422062900-JapanYoshi-20240422061200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grayfell-20240422062900-JapanYoshi-20240422061200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grayfell-20240422062900-JapanYoshi-20240422061200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SpamHunters-20240422072200-Grayfell-20240422062900"></span>Additionally, the entire article depends a bit too much on "Doctorow" <a href="/wiki/User:SpamHunters" title="User:SpamHunters">SpamHunters</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SpamHunters" title="User talk:SpamHunters">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-SpamHunters-20240422072200-Grayfell-20240422062900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SpamHunters-20240422072200-Grayfell-20240422062900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SpamHunters-20240422072200-Grayfell-20240422062900"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-130.44.188.49-20240422084800-Grayfell-20240422062900"></span>From what source are you getting that Doctorow coined the term? The American Dialect Society post merely says that it became popular after he "used [it] in a blogpost". Coining and using are very different things. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/130.44.188.49" title="Special:Contributions/130.44.188.49">130.44.188.49</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:130.44.188.49" title="User talk:130.44.188.49">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-130.44.188.49-20240422084800-Grayfell-20240422062900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-130.44.188.49-20240422084800-Grayfell-20240422062900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-130.44.188.49-20240422084800-Grayfell-20240422062900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M4yj40-20240422112000-130.44.188.49-20240422084800"></span>This entire article reads more like an advertisement for Doctorow's work in all honesty. St. Rev shouldn't get credit for coining the word of course, but their (and other) previous usage of the word shows that Doctorow can't have "coined" the word. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:M4yj40&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:M4yj40 (page does not exist)">M4yj40</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M4yj40" title="User talk:M4yj40">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-M4yj40-20240422112000-130.44.188.49-20240422084800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M4yj40-20240422112000-130.44.188.49-20240422084800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M4yj40-20240422112000-130.44.188.49-20240422084800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89-20240422151700-M4yj40-20240422112000"></span>Exactly. If we're not crediting the people who first used it regularly (St. Rev), we shouldn't single out other random people who definitely didn't cause its surge (Doctorow). I say "inventor" is not needed on tbe page. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89" title="Special:Contributions/2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89">2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89-20240422151700-M4yj40-20240422112000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:17, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89-20240422151700-M4yj40-20240422112000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89-20240422151700-M4yj40-20240422112000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M4yj40-20240422160500-2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89-20240422151700"></span>Imho the article shouldn't really exist as a standalone page, but rather be subsumed under "platform decay" or similar, and then the bits about all the awards that doctorow got can go on his page. That would also mean that the focus on him makes more sense if it's on his page, rather than having a standalone page that's effectively just a monument to his work <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:M4yj40&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:M4yj40 (page does not exist)">M4yj40</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M4yj40" title="User talk:M4yj40">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-M4yj40-20240422160500-2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89-20240422151700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M4yj40-20240422160500-2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89-20240422151700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M4yj40-20240422160500-2604:2D80:D503:5100:1A5F:4DFB:795:CC89-20240422151700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Garnet_Moss-20240422174400-Grayfell-20240422062900"></span>The concept was indeed crystallized in 2022, but it’s quite clear from its occasional use for years beforehand in overlapping social circles with Mr. Doctorow that the word itself is much older. To compromise, I’d propose wording which emphasizes that the complete idea was conceived of in 2022, and that the word was *adapted* to fit the concept. Something along the lines of “The concept was first described in 2022, adapting the term “enshittification” as a name.” Or something along those lines. <a href="/wiki/User:Garnet_Moss" title="User:Garnet Moss">Garnet Moss</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Garnet_Moss" title="User talk:Garnet Moss">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Garnet_Moss-20240422174400-Grayfell-20240422062900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:44, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Garnet_Moss-20240422174400-Grayfell-20240422062900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Garnet_Moss-20240422174400-Grayfell-20240422062900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163100-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"></span>Cory Doctorow originally used the word "enshitification" (with a single T) when he tweeted from mobile </p><p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://x.com/AKMA/status/1550459130695098370">https://x.com/AKMA/status/1550459130695098370</a> <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B" title="Special:Contributions/2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B">2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163100-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:31, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163100-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163100-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"></span>Tommy Christopher was the first to use the word "enshitify" but with a slightly different meaning</dd></dl> <p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20140903162302/http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/president-obama-perfectly-zings-gop-border-bill-shitshow/">https://web.archive.org/web/20140903162302/http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/president-obama-perfectly-zings-gop-border-bill-shitshow/</a> </p><p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://x.com/tommyxtopher/status/495380123336454144">https://x.com/tommyxtopher/status/495380123336454144</a> <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B" title="Special:Contributions/2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B">2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700-St._Rev_used_the_word_9_years_before_Doctorow"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422173300-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700"></span>The term <a href="/w/index.php?title=Encrappification&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Encrappification (page does not exist)">encrappification</a> has been used in reference to <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.popmatters.com/wendy-a-woloson-crap-2645979568.html">a book</a> by https <a href="/wiki/Wendy_A._Woloson#Books" title="Wendy A. Woloson">Wendy_A._Woloson#Books</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B" title="Special:Contributions/2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B">2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422173300-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422173300-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422173300-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SnowFire-20240422174200-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700"></span>All of this is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Original_research" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Original research">WP:original research</a>. To cite *any* of this, get a secondary source to cover it, not raw tweets. And more generally, even if a secondary source brings it up... so what? The "interesting" question is who popularizes a concept, not who is literally the first person to use the word. I have no doubt that somebody scribbled "enshittification" into a notebook in Erie, Pennsylvania after a Skeeball machine broke in 1978, but if nobody uses it or notices afterward, it didn't matter.</li> <li>More productively: If you do want to track down tweets mentioning the word, maybe a good thing for a blog post & comment discussion somewhere or the like? Just Wikipedia isn't the place, until & unless there's a reliable, secondary source talking about it. <a href="/wiki/User:SnowFire" title="User:SnowFire">SnowFire</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SnowFire" title="User talk:SnowFire">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-SnowFire-20240422174200-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SnowFire-20240422174200-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SnowFire-20240422174200-2406:7400:BB:810:78AA:383D:21FC:A60B-20240422163700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-72.24.155.152-20240422175200-SnowFire-20240422174200"></span>The article is already guilty of WP:original research. The claim about Doctorow coining the word should be removed as it is not supported any citations. In addition, the citiations that do exist seem to be used and written in a way to advertise Doctorow's blog. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/72.24.155.152" title="Special:Contributions/72.24.155.152">72.24.155.152</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:72.24.155.152&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:72.24.155.152 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-72.24.155.152-20240422175200-SnowFire-20240422174200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:52, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-72.24.155.152-20240422175200-SnowFire-20240422174200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-72.24.155.152-20240422175200-SnowFire-20240422174200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SnowFire-20240422175700-72.24.155.152-20240422175200"></span>It's trivial to find sources not written by Doctorow crediting him: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/news/enshittification-the-2023-word-of-the-year">https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/news/enshittification-the-2023-word-of-the-year</a> , <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/30/tech_monopoly_doctorow/">https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/30/tech_monopoly_doctorow/</a> . Maybe these sources are <i>wrong</i> but see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VNT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VNT">Verifiability, not truth</a>.</dd> <dd>Also, for funzies, I searched up St. Rev's big proud 2013 example on Wayback Machine: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20230706021636/https://twitter.com/St_Rev/status/403007315118276608">[3]</a> . It had <i>four likes</i> in 2023 (it's gotten more likes after he posted it again since). This is truly equivalent to "Yo I wrote this on a private notebook that means I own it right." He only got 200+ likes <i>after</i> Doctorow popularized the term and St. Rev decided to start something by claiming he really made it. This happens all the time in media with, like, plots of TV episodes - somebody else wrote a short story that is very similar to the plot of that episode, but it never went anywhere. It doesn't mean that plagiarism or credit-stealing happened, it's just the nature of things, of course someone else would have innocently used the word non-notably earlier. That doesn't take anything away from Doctorow or make the article inaccurate. <a href="/wiki/User:SnowFire" title="User:SnowFire">SnowFire</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SnowFire" title="User talk:SnowFire">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-SnowFire-20240422175700-72.24.155.152-20240422175200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SnowFire-20240422175700-72.24.155.152-20240422175200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SnowFire-20240422175700-72.24.155.152-20240422175200"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_ed17-20240423055800-SnowFire-20240422175700"></span>+1. <a href="/wiki/User:The_ed17" title="User:The ed17">Ed</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_ed17" title="User talk:The ed17">[talk]</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OMT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OMT">[OMT]</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-The_ed17-20240423055800-SnowFire-20240422175700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_ed17-20240423055800-SnowFire-20240422175700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_ed17-20240423055800-SnowFire-20240422175700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Garnet_Moss-20240422180000-SnowFire-20240422175700"></span>This article is the subject of a pretty high-visibility Twitter discourse right now, I have a feeling there’s going to be a lot of comments not terribly familiar with standards. That said, I would support the use of “popularized” or “adapted” rather than “coined” in the leading sentence, which has a somewhat shaky basis in the citations itself. <a href="/wiki/User:Garnet_Moss" title="User:Garnet Moss">Garnet Moss</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Garnet_Moss" title="User talk:Garnet Moss">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Garnet_Moss-20240422180000-SnowFire-20240422175700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Garnet_Moss-20240422180000-SnowFire-20240422175700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Garnet_Moss-20240422180000-SnowFire-20240422175700"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-72.24.155.152-20240422180900-SnowFire-20240422175700"></span>In that case, feel free to edit it back in providing the Register article as a reference, which was not done before. That said, it would probably be better to avoid using a word we "know" to be incorrect even though it is verifiable. I'd still add that the whole article could use a rewrite, though. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/72.24.155.152" title="Special:Contributions/72.24.155.152">72.24.155.152</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:72.24.155.152&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:72.24.155.152 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-72.24.155.152-20240422180900-SnowFire-20240422175700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:09, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-72.24.155.152-20240422180900-SnowFire-20240422175700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-72.24.155.152-20240422180900-SnowFire-20240422175700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Why_is_a_picture_of_Doctorow_needed" data-mw-thread-id="h-Why_is_a_picture_of_Doctorow_needed-20240422190600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Why_is_a_picture_of_Doctorow_needed-20240422190600"></span>Why is a picture of Doctorow needed<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Why_is_a_picture_of_Doctorow_needed-20240422190600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=21" title="Edit section: Why is a picture of Doctorow needed"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-N7o2h3-20240422190600-Why_is_a_picture_of_Doctorow_needed"></span>This page is about a concept, not a person. The first image on the page should be something regarding the concept. There is surely a better representation of the degradation of websites. <a href="/wiki/User:N7o2h3" title="User:N7o2h3">N7o2h3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:N7o2h3" title="User talk:N7o2h3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-N7o2h3-20240422190600-Why_is_a_picture_of_Doctorow_needed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-N7o2h3-20240422190600-Why_is_a_picture_of_Doctorow_needed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-N7o2h3-20240422190600-Why_is_a_picture_of_Doctorow_needed"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thriley-20240422202000-N7o2h3-20240422190600"></span>I agree. I have removed the image. <a href="/wiki/User:Thriley" title="User:Thriley">Thriley</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thriley" title="User talk:Thriley">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Thriley-20240422202000-N7o2h3-20240422190600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thriley-20240422202000-N7o2h3-20240422190600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thriley-20240422202000-N7o2h3-20240422190600"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Troll_page" data-mw-thread-id="h-Troll_page-20240422191000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Troll_page-20240422191000"></span>Troll page<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Troll_page-20240422191000"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=22" title="Edit section: Troll page"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-RainbowBambi-20240422191000-Troll_page"></span>Why does this exist, it is clearly a troll page <a href="/wiki/User:RainbowBambi" title="User:RainbowBambi">RainbowBambi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:RainbowBambi" title="User talk:RainbowBambi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-RainbowBambi-20240422191000-Troll_page" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:10, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-RainbowBambi-20240422191000-Troll_page"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-RainbowBambi-20240422191000-Troll_page"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422192900-RainbowBambi-20240422191000"></span>I've heard of this idea before I learned of the article today. Just because it has the word 'shit' in it doesn't make it vandalism. Over a hundred editors have contributed to this page, admins included. If we want to have a discussion around renaming this article <b>Platform decay</b>, that may be worth discussing, but it's an often-cited concept (at least on the parts of the internet I hang out in.) <b><a href="/wiki/User:Thesavagenorwegian/guestbook" title="User:Thesavagenorwegian/guestbook"><span style="color:#0343df">The</span></a><a href="/wiki/User:Thesavagenorwegian" title="User:Thesavagenorwegian"><span style="color:#f97306">Savage</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thesavagenorwegian" title="User talk:Thesavagenorwegian"><span style="color:#0343df">Norwegian</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422192900-RainbowBambi-20240422191000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422192900-RainbowBambi-20240422191000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422192900-RainbowBambi-20240422191000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Garnet_Moss-20240422193700-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422192900"></span>I’d support a renaming effort. If both “platform decay” and “enshittification” are widely recognized terms, then I think on the basis of encyclopedic tone it makes more sense to pick the former. Though obviously, those who prioritize branding or activism would prefer the catchier, more vulgar term. <a href="/wiki/User:Garnet_Moss" title="User:Garnet Moss">Garnet Moss</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Garnet_Moss" title="User talk:Garnet Moss">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Garnet_Moss-20240422193700-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422192900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Garnet_Moss-20240422193700-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422192900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Garnet_Moss-20240422193700-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422192900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422194500-Garnet_Moss-20240422193700"></span>Well it looks like back in December there was an RFC to to that effect, and they concluded the current title is the common name. I've heard both, and I couldn't say which is more common. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Thesavagenorwegian/guestbook" title="User:Thesavagenorwegian/guestbook"><span style="color:#0343df">The</span></a><a href="/wiki/User:Thesavagenorwegian" title="User:Thesavagenorwegian"><span style="color:#f97306">Savage</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thesavagenorwegian" title="User talk:Thesavagenorwegian"><span style="color:#0343df">Norwegian</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422194500-Garnet_Moss-20240422193700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422194500-Garnet_Moss-20240422193700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422194500-Garnet_Moss-20240422193700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-N7o2h3-20240426165500-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422194500"></span>I have heard enshittification more than platform decay, however that may just be the internet circles I am in <a href="/wiki/User:N7o2h3" title="User:N7o2h3">N7o2h3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:N7o2h3" title="User talk:N7o2h3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-N7o2h3-20240426165500-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422194500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-N7o2h3-20240426165500-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422194500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-N7o2h3-20240426165500-Thesavagenorwegian-20240422194500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MtPenguinMonster-20240911132200-N7o2h3-20240426165500"></span>According to <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=enshittification,platform%20decay">Google Trends</a>, the term "enshittification" has consistently been searched more than twice as often as "platform decay" over the past year, which does indicate that it's the more common term. --<a href="/wiki/User:MtPenguinMonster" title="User:MtPenguinMonster">MtPenguinMonster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MtPenguinMonster" title="User talk:MtPenguinMonster">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-MtPenguinMonster-20240911132200-N7o2h3-20240426165500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MtPenguinMonster-20240911132200-N7o2h3-20240426165500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MtPenguinMonster-20240911132200-N7o2h3-20240426165500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GeogSage-20240912043500-MtPenguinMonster-20240911132200"></span>"Platform Decay" sounds like <a href="/wiki/Whitewashing_(censorship)" class="mw-redirect" title="Whitewashing (censorship)">whitewashing</a> of a term. Like calling the <a href="/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress" title="Boeing B-52 Stratofortress">Boeing B-52 Stratofortress</a> "B.U.F.F." the Big Ugly Fat <i>Fellow</i> or F.U.B.A.R. as <i>Fouled </i>Up Beyond All Recognition. In this case, the argument could be made to avoid the more <a href="/wiki/Vulgar" class="mw-disambig" title="Vulgar">vulgar</a> name, based on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles" title="Wikipedia:Article titles">Wikipedia:Article titles</a>, but I think that is overly <a href="/wiki/Pedantic" class="mw-redirect" title="Pedantic">pedantic</a>, and this title isn't particularly vulgar. <a href="/wiki/User:GeogSage" title="User:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">GeogSage</span></a> <sup> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GeogSage" title="User talk:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">⚔Chat?⚔</span></a>) </sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-GeogSage-20240912043500-MtPenguinMonster-20240911132200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GeogSage-20240912043500-MtPenguinMonster-20240911132200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GeogSage-20240912043500-MtPenguinMonster-20240911132200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Financialization" data-mw-thread-id="h-Financialization-20240502024600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Financialization-20240502024600"></span><a href="/wiki/Financialization" title="Financialization">Financialization</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Financialization-20240502024600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=23" title="Edit section: Financialization"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-67.198.37.16-20240502024600-Financialization"></span>My understanding (no, I do not have references) is that enshittification is either caused by <a href="/wiki/Financialization" title="Financialization">financialization</a> or is a synonym for the term <a href="/wiki/Financialization" title="Financialization">financialization</a>. At any rate, the relationship to financialization could be added. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/67.198.37.16" title="Special:Contributions/67.198.37.16">67.198.37.16</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:67.198.37.16" title="User talk:67.198.37.16">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-67.198.37.16-20240502024600-Financialization" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-67.198.37.16-20240502024600-Financialization"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-67.198.37.16-20240502024600-Financialization"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Deviantart's_enshittification" data-mw-thread-id="h-Deviantart's_enshittification-20240530231700"><span id="Deviantart.27s_enshittification"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Deviantart's_enshittification-20240530231700"></span>Deviantart's enshittification<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Deviantart's_enshittification-20240530231700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=24" title="Edit section: Deviantart's enshittification"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Masonicon-20240530231700-Deviantart's_enshittification"></span>when we discuss deviantart's enshittification since May 21st 2020-onwards? <a href="/wiki/User:Masonicon" title="User:Masonicon">Masonicon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Masonicon" title="User talk:Masonicon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Masonicon-20240530231700-Deviantart's_enshittification" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Masonicon-20240530231700-Deviantart's_enshittification"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Masonicon-20240530231700-Deviantart's_enshittification"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grayfell-20240531055900-Masonicon-20240530231700"></span>There are many, many potential examples of enshittification. For Wikipedia, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOR">we need sources to spell it out for us</a>. I did find "<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://slate.com/technology/2024/05/deviantart-what-happened-ai-decline-lawsuit-stability.html">The Tragic Downfall of the Internet’s Art Gallery</a>". While this source does indicate there's something to this, we still need a source to directly contextualize this as enshittification or platform decay or similar. If you know of such a source or can find one, please propose it here. <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grayfell" title="User talk:Grayfell">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Grayfell-20240531055900-Masonicon-20240530231700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grayfell-20240531055900-Masonicon-20240530231700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grayfell-20240531055900-Masonicon-20240530231700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Masonicon-20240601005600-Grayfell-20240531055900"></span>more sources: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOSTsJR8hHY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOSTsJR8hHY</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/class-action-filed-against-stability-ai-midjourney-and-deviantart-for-dmca-violations-right-of-publicity-violations-unlawful-competition-breach-of-tos-301721869.html">https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/class-action-filed-against-stability-ai-midjourney-and-deviantart-for-dmca-violations-right-of-publicity-violations-unlawful-competition-breach-of-tos-301721869.html</a></dd> <dd>it's okay enough? <a href="/wiki/User:Masonicon" title="User:Masonicon">Masonicon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Masonicon" title="User talk:Masonicon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Masonicon-20240601005600-Grayfell-20240531055900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:56, 1 June 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Masonicon-20240601005600-Grayfell-20240531055900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Masonicon-20240601005600-Grayfell-20240531055900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grayfell-20240601061400-Masonicon-20240601005600"></span>Not yet. We need <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable sources</a> which directly say that Deviantart is an example of enshittification.</dd> <dd>For the video: Is <a href="/w/index.php?title=Izzzyzzz&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Izzzyzzz (page does not exist)">Izzzyzzz</a> a reliable source? Does that channel have a positive reputation for accuracy and fact checking? Very few youtube videos are reliable sources, since they are <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UGC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UGC">user generated content</a> and do not have editorial oversight or fact checking. This doesn't mean the video is bad (or good) it just means it's not likely to be useful as a source for this article.</dd> <dd>The press release is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PRIMARY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PRIMARY">WP:PRIMARY</a> source which doesn't say anything about "enshittification". We cannot combine sources to support claims which are not made by any individual source, as this is known as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTH">WP:SYNTH</a>.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Deviantart" class="mw-redirect" title="Deviantart">Deviantart</a> has its own article, so in order to criticize Deviant art on the <i>Enshittification</i> article, we need a reliable source to directly say that Deviantart has been enshittified. <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grayfell" title="User talk:Grayfell">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Grayfell-20240601061400-Masonicon-20240601005600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:14, 1 June 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grayfell-20240601061400-Masonicon-20240601005600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grayfell-20240601061400-Masonicon-20240601005600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_described_as_examples...)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_de-20240710014400"><span id="Let.27s_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_.28A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_described_as_examples....29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_de-20240710014400"></span>Let's get rid of that list in the beginning (A variety of platforms have been described as examples...)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_de-20240710014400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=25" title="Edit section: Let's get rid of that list in the beginning (A variety of platforms have been described as examples...)"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-1ctinus-20240710014400-Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_de"></span>As someone who has this page in my watchlist, I notice a pattern of editors adding unsourced crap to the list of examples of "enshittification" in the lead. I believe that the "a variety of platforms" section is unnecessary and ridiculously long—it lists about a dozen examples, with some not appearing in the article. I endorse getting rid of it. <a href="/wiki/User:1ctinus" title="User:1ctinus"><span style="background: maroon; padding: 3px; color: white;border-bottom:3px solid #400;">-1ctinus📝</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:1ctinus" title="User talk:1ctinus"><span style="background: #216; padding: 3px; color: white; border-bottom: 3px solid #103">🗨</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-1ctinus-20240710014400-Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_de" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-1ctinus-20240710014400-Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_de"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-1ctinus-20240710014400-Let's_get_rid_of_that_list_in_the_beginning_(A_variety_of_platforms_have_been_de"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nsophiay-20240710092900-1ctinus-20240710014400"></span>Seconded. Alternatively, we could mention just a few of the most glaring/well-supported examples, but I suspect that if we try that, it will incite edit wars on which ones specifically to include. --<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-weight:bold;"><a href="/wiki/User:Nsophiay" title="User:Nsophiay">Nsophiay</a></span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nsophiay" title="User talk:Nsophiay">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Nsophiay-20240710092900-1ctinus-20240710014400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nsophiay-20240710092900-1ctinus-20240710014400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nsophiay-20240710092900-1ctinus-20240710014400"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240710153500-1ctinus-20240710014400"></span>I agree. Paring the list further down the page might be difficult, but cutting it from the lead is a good start. There is never going to be a shortage of examples of companies being bad. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Thesavagenorwegian/guestbook" title="User:Thesavagenorwegian/guestbook"><span style="color:#0343df">The</span></a><a href="/wiki/User:Thesavagenorwegian" title="User:Thesavagenorwegian"><span style="color:#f97306">Savage</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thesavagenorwegian" title="User talk:Thesavagenorwegian"><span style="color:#0343df">Norwegian</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240710153500-1ctinus-20240710014400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240710153500-1ctinus-20240710014400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thesavagenorwegian-20240710153500-1ctinus-20240710014400"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grayfell-20240710233100-Thesavagenorwegian-20240710153500"></span>See also <a href="#Examples_in_the_lead">#Examples in the lead</a> above. <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grayfell" title="User talk:Grayfell">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Grayfell-20240710233100-Thesavagenorwegian-20240710153500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grayfell-20240710233100-Thesavagenorwegian-20240710153500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grayfell-20240710233100-Thesavagenorwegian-20240710153500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Lacking_citations" data-mw-thread-id="h-Lacking_citations-20240714213600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Lacking_citations-20240714213600"></span>Lacking citations<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Lacking_citations-20240714213600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=26" title="Edit section: Lacking citations"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-73.198.87.199-20240714213600-Lacking_citations"></span>This article is lacking citations in the first section. Maybe consider reusing citations from later in the article? <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/73.198.87.199" title="Special:Contributions/73.198.87.199">73.198.87.199</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:73.198.87.199&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:73.198.87.199 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-73.198.87.199-20240714213600-Lacking_citations" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-73.198.87.199-20240714213600-Lacking_citations"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-73.198.87.199-20240714213600-Lacking_citations"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-1ctinus-20240714221300-73.198.87.199-20240714213600"></span>Please see <a href="/wiki/MOS:CITELEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:CITELEAD">MOS:CITELEAD</a> :). Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:1ctinus" title="User:1ctinus"><span style="background: maroon; padding: 3px; color: white;border-bottom:3px solid #400;">-1ctinus📝</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:1ctinus" title="User talk:1ctinus"><span style="background: #216; padding: 3px; color: white; border-bottom: 3px solid #103">🗨</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-1ctinus-20240714221300-73.198.87.199-20240714213600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-1ctinus-20240714221300-73.198.87.199-20240714213600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-1ctinus-20240714221300-73.198.87.199-20240714213600"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="See_also" data-mw-thread-id="h-See_also-20240728135700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-See_also-20240728135700"></span>See also<span data-mw-comment-end="h-See_also-20240728135700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&action=edit&section=27" title="Edit section: See also"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-1ctinus-20240728135700-See_also"></span>the See Also section on this article is ridiculously long. Somebody with better judgement than me should trim it. <a href="/wiki/User:1ctinus" title="User:1ctinus"><span style="background: maroon; padding: 3px; color: white;border-bottom:3px solid #400;">-1ctinus📝</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:1ctinus" title="User talk:1ctinus"><span style="background: #216; padding: 3px; color: white; border-bottom: 3px solid #103">🗨</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-1ctinus-20240728135700-See_also" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:57, 28 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-1ctinus-20240728135700-See_also"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-1ctinus-20240728135700-See_also"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GeogSage-20240728162400-1ctinus-20240728135700"></span>I trimmed it a bit, but it might survive another pass. This might be useful for a portal, or template. Several topics, like <a href="/wiki/Link_rot" title="Link rot">link rot</a>, and the <a href="/wiki/Dead_internet_theory" class="mw-redirect" title="Dead internet theory">dead internet theory</a> have a very large connected web of topics we could start to put together to trim the respective "see also" sections. <a href="/wiki/User:GeogSage" title="User:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">GeogSage</span></a> <sup> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GeogSage" title="User talk:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">⚔Chat?⚔</span></a>) </sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-GeogSage-20240728162400-1ctinus-20240728135700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GeogSage-20240728162400-1ctinus-20240728135700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GeogSage-20240728162400-1ctinus-20240728135700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GeogSage-20240728162800-GeogSage-20240728162400"></span>Second comment, perhaps we could heavily overhaul the existing <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Media_culture">media culture</a> template. <a href="/wiki/User:GeogSage" title="User:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">GeogSage</span></a> <sup> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GeogSage" title="User talk:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">⚔Chat?⚔</span></a>) </sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-GeogSage-20240728162800-GeogSage-20240728162400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GeogSage-20240728162800-GeogSage-20240728162400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GeogSage-20240728162800-GeogSage-20240728162400"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-1ctinus-20240728165300-GeogSage-20240728162400"></span>I like the idea of a template for these similar ideas, but it really lacks a solid central theme besides "existential problems relating to the internet and DRM" <a href="/wiki/User:1ctinus" title="User:1ctinus"><span style="background: maroon; padding: 3px; color: white;border-bottom:3px solid #400;">-1ctinus📝</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:1ctinus" title="User talk:1ctinus"><span style="background: #216; padding: 3px; color: white; border-bottom: 3px solid #103">🗨</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-1ctinus-20240728165300-GeogSage-20240728162400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-1ctinus-20240728165300-GeogSage-20240728162400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-1ctinus-20240728165300-GeogSage-20240728162400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GeogSage-20240728182900-1ctinus-20240728165300"></span>I think we could possibly expand the section of the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Media_culture" title="Template:Media culture">Media culture</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> template for "issues" by dividing them into "social" or "ethical" and "technical." This would make the issues section look like the "deception" section. The DIT could likely fit into the "deception" "others" section, and "enshittification" in a "technical" section under "issues." Looking at the "Media Culture" template, it clearly needs an overhaul anyway. <a href="/wiki/User:GeogSage" title="User:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">GeogSage</span></a> <sup> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GeogSage" title="User talk:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">⚔Chat?⚔</span></a>) </sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-GeogSage-20240728182900-1ctinus-20240728165300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:29, 28 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GeogSage-20240728182900-1ctinus-20240728165300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GeogSage-20240728182900-1ctinus-20240728165300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grayfell-20240728200800-1ctinus-20240728135700"></span>Every platform is going to use media in countless ways, but that's not really what this is about, right? The use of the term for Uber and AirBnB, for example, has very little to to do with media, and more to do with the services they facilitate. I don't know off-hand of any relevant templates related to <a href="/wiki/Platform_economy" title="Platform economy">platform economy</a>, but it might be worth hunting around for something in that vein, as well. <a href="/wiki/User:Grayfell" title="User:Grayfell">Grayfell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grayfell" title="User talk:Grayfell">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-Grayfell-20240728200800-1ctinus-20240728135700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:08, 28 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grayfell-20240728200800-1ctinus-20240728135700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grayfell-20240728200800-1ctinus-20240728135700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_ed17-20240812200100-Grayfell-20240728200800"></span>I ended up removing the entire section as I roughly agree with 1ctinus. There are some broadly related concepts in there, e.g. <a href="/wiki/Closed_platform" title="Closed platform">closed platform</a> or <a href="/wiki/Feature_creep" title="Feature creep">feature creep</a>, but general readers are not going to recognize that without contextualized, likely in-article mentions. <a href="/wiki/User:The_ed17" title="User:The ed17">Ed</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_ed17" title="User talk:The ed17">[talk]</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OMT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OMT">[OMT]</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-The_ed17-20240812200100-Grayfell-20240728200800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_ed17-20240812200100-Grayfell-20240728200800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_ed17-20240812200100-Grayfell-20240728200800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GeogSage-20240814025700-The_ed17-20240812200100"></span>I restored the section but trimmed it tremendously. I think the section has some links that can help "<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#"See_also"_section" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout">build the web</a>," and topics like <a href="/wiki/Link_rot" title="Link rot">link rot</a> and the <a href="/wiki/Dead_internet_theory" class="mw-redirect" title="Dead internet theory">dead internet theory</a> are broadly related but not something we should work into the main text. I deleted the "further reading section." <a href="/wiki/User:GeogSage" title="User:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">GeogSage</span></a> <sup> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GeogSage" title="User talk:GeogSage"><span style="font-family:Blackadder ITC; color:grey">⚔Chat?⚔</span></a>) </sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enshittification#c-GeogSage-20240814025700-The_ed17-20240812200100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GeogSage-20240814025700-The_ed17-20240812200100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GeogSage-20240814025700-The_ed17-20240812200100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?useformat=desktop&type=1x1&usesul3=0" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&oldid=1258872952">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enshittification&oldid=1258872952</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Internet_articles" title="Category:C-Class Internet articles">C-Class Internet articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_Internet_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance Internet articles">Unknown-importance Internet articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Internet_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Internet articles">WikiProject Internet articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Economics_articles" title="Category:C-Class Economics articles">C-Class Economics articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_Economics_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance Economics articles">Unknown-importance Economics articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Economics_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Economics articles">WikiProject Economics articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_sociology_articles" title="Category:C-Class sociology articles">C-Class sociology articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_sociology_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance sociology articles">Unknown-importance sociology articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Internet_culture_articles" title="Category:C-Class Internet culture articles">C-Class Internet culture articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_Internet_culture_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance Internet culture articles">Unknown-importance Internet culture articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Internet_culture_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Internet culture articles">WikiProject Internet culture articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_Did_you_know_articles" title="Category:Wikipedia Did you know articles">Wikipedia Did you know articles</a></li></ul></div><div id="mw-hidden-catlinks" class="mw-hidden-catlinks mw-hidden-cats-hidden">Hidden category: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Pages_with_broken_anchors" title="Category:Pages with broken anchors">Pages with broken anchors</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 22 November 2024, at 02:38<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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