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<h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">Talk</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">The Hobbit</span></h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang mw-portlet-lang-icon-only" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector-empty" aria-label="This article exist only in this language. 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<div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle"></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 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.talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/The_Hobbit" title="The Hobbit">The Hobbit</a> article.<br/> This is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM" title="Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not">not a forum</a> for general discussion of the article's subject.</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Talk:The_Hobbit" title="Special:NewSection/Talk:The Hobbit">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? 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padding: 1px 3px;"><span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22The+Hobbit%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22The+Hobbit%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22The+Hobbit%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22The+Hobbit%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&tbs=sur:fmc&tbm=isch&q=%22The+Hobbit%22+-site:wikipedia.org+-site:wikimedia.org">free images</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cx=007734830908295939403%3Agalkqgoksq0&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3AWikipedia%2520Reference%2520Search&q=%22The+Hobbit%22">WP refs</a>) <b>·</b> <span title="Free English newspaper sources" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_English_newspaper_sources">FENS</a></span> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22The+Hobbit%22&acc=on&wc=on">JSTOR</a> <b>·</b> <span title="The Wikipedia Library" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/search/?q=%22The+Hobbit%22">TWL</a></span></span></td></tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; 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padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:The Hobbit/" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1135653291">@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .article-history{min-width:80%}}</style><table class="article-history tmbox tmbox-notice"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_support_vote.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Good article"><img alt="Good article" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/40px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="41" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/60px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/80px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><b>The Hobbit</b> has been listed as one of the <i><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_articles/Language_and_literature" title="Wikipedia:Good articles/Language and literature">Language and literature good articles</a></b></i> under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria" title="Wikipedia:Good article criteria">good article criteria</a>. If you can improve it further, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold" title="Wikipedia:Be bold">please do so</a>. <small><i>If it no longer meets these criteria, you can <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment" title="Wikipedia:Good article reassessment">reassess</a></b> it</i>.</small></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" style="width:100%"><table class="article-history-milestones mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width:100%;font-size:90%"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" style="font-size:110%"><span style="float:left"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_date.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="On this day..."><img alt="On this day..." src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/20px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/30px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/40px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span></span> Article milestones</th></tr><tr style="text-align:left"><th>Date</th><th>Process</th><th>Result</th></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Hobbit&oldid=189146390">February 5, 2008</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/The_Hobbit/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/The Hobbit/archive1">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Hobbit&oldid=215785304">May 30, 2008</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/The_Hobbit/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Hobbit/archive1">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Not promoted</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Hobbit&oldid=226690489">July 19, 2008</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit/GA1" title="Talk:The Hobbit/GA1">Good article nominee</a></b></td><td>Listed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Hobbit&oldid=472802882">January 24, 2012</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/The_Hobbit/archive2" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/The Hobbit/archive2">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Hobbit&oldid=477607478">February 19, 2012</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/The_Hobbit/archive2" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Hobbit/archive2">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Not promoted</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="width:100%"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_date.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="On this day..."><img alt="On this day..." src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/20px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/30px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/40px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span> Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> in the <i>"<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Selected_anniversaries" title="Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries">On this day...</a>"</i> column on <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/13883542" title="Special:PermanentLink/13883542">September 21, 2004</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/23681227" title="Special:PermanentLink/23681227">September 21, 2005</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/76654329" title="Special:PermanentLink/76654329">September 21, 2006</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/239810594" title="Special:PermanentLink/239810594">September 21, 2008</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/315364949" title="Special:PermanentLink/315364949">September 21, 2009</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/386065851" title="Special:PermanentLink/386065851">September 21, 2010</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/681878256" title="Special:PermanentLink/681878256">September 21, 2015</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/801636781" title="Special:PermanentLink/801636781">September 21, 2017</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1111535815" title="Special:PermanentLink/1111535815">September 21, 2022</a>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Current status: <b>Good 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Please see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Middle-earth/Standards" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards">Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards</a> for more information about this and other article standards.</small></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Open_book_01.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Open_book_01.svg/25px-Open_book_01.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Open_book_01.svg/38px-Open_book_01.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Open_book_01.svg/50px-Open_book_01.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="360" data-file-height="360"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Books" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Books">Books</a> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Open_book_01.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Open_book_01.svg/50px-Open_book_01.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Open_book_01.svg/75px-Open_book_01.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Open_book_01.svg/100px-Open_book_01.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="360" data-file-height="360"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239009302">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_bookcase.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Nuvola_apps_bookcase.svg/28px-Nuvola_apps_bookcase.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Nuvola_apps_bookcase.svg/42px-Nuvola_apps_bookcase.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Nuvola_apps_bookcase.svg/56px-Nuvola_apps_bookcase.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Books" title="Portal:Books">Books portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <i><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Books" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Books">WikiProject Books</a></b></i>. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Books/Members" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Books/Members">join the project</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Books" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Books">discuss matters related to book articles</a>. To use this banner, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Template:WPBooks/doc" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:WPBooks/doc">documentation</a>. To improve this article, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOOKS#Article_structure" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOOKS">relevant guideline for the type of work</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Books</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Books</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Books</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Book articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Book_collection.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Book_collection.jpg/32px-Book_collection.jpg" decoding="async" width="32" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Book_collection.jpg/48px-Book_collection.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Book_collection.jpg/63px-Book_collection.jpg 2x" data-file-width="299" data-file-height="238"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels">Novels</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/Fantasy_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Fantasy task force">Fantasy</a></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Book_collection.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Book_collection.jpg/80px-Book_collection.jpg" decoding="async" width="80" height="64" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Book_collection.jpg/120px-Book_collection.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Book_collection.jpg/160px-Book_collection.jpg 2x" data-file-width="299" data-file-height="238"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Book_collection.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Book_collection.jpg/32px-Book_collection.jpg" decoding="async" width="32" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Book_collection.jpg/48px-Book_collection.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Book_collection.jpg/64px-Book_collection.jpg 2x" data-file-width="299" data-file-height="238"/></a></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Novels" title="Portal:Novels">Novels portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels">WikiProject Novels</a></b>, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to <a href="/wiki/Novel" title="Novel">novels</a>, <a href="/wiki/Novella" title="Novella">novellas</a>, <a href="/wiki/Novella" title="Novella">novelettes</a> and <a href="/wiki/Short_story" title="Short story">short stories</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Novels" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels">general Project discussion</a></b> to talk over new ideas and suggestions.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Novels</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Novels</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">novel articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_novel_articles" title="Category:High-importance novel articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Masked_man.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Masked_man.svg/32px-Masked_man.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Masked_man.svg/49px-Masked_man.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Masked_man.svg/64px-Masked_man.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="325" data-file-height="255"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/Fantasy_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Fantasy task force">Fantasy task force</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Fantasy_fiction_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Fantasy fiction articles">Top-importance</a>).</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png/17px-Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png" decoding="async" width="17" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png/26px-Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png/34px-Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png 2x" data-file-width="2482" data-file-height="3614"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature">Children's literature</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-top">Top‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png/50px-Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="73" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png/75px-Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png/100px-Alice_par_John_Tenniel_30.png 2x" data-file-width="2482" data-file-height="3614"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Tom_Sawyer_1876_frontispiece.jpg/20px-Tom_Sawyer_1876_frontispiece.jpg" decoding="async" width="20" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Tom_Sawyer_1876_frontispiece.jpg/30px-Tom_Sawyer_1876_frontispiece.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Tom_Sawyer_1876_frontispiece.jpg/41px-Tom_Sawyer_1876_frontispiece.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1115" data-file-height="1536"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Children%27s_literature" title="Portal:Children's literature">Children's literature portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature">WikiProject Children's literature</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Children%27s_literature" title="Children's literature">Children's literature</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Children's literature">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Children's literature</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Children's literature</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">children and young adult literature articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-top"><a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_children_and_young_adult_literature_articles" title="Category:Top-importance children and young adult literature articles">Top</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Top-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="padding:0"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="background:transparent;width:100%"><tbody><tr><th style="text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0">Tasks you can do:</th></tr><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:5px;background-color:white;border:1px solid #c0c090;margin-top:5px"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · ";font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li:last-child::after{content:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:first-child::before{content:" (";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:last-child::after{content:")";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol{counter-reset:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><div class="hlist plainlinks" style="text-align:center;font-size:90%;"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Children%27s_literature%2Ftask_box&action=edit">edit</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Children%27s_literature%2Ftask_box&action=history">history</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Children%27s_literature%2Ftask_box&action=watch">watch</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Children%27s_literature%2Ftask_box&action=purge">purge</a></li></ul> </div> <p>Here are some open tasks for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature">WikiProject Children's literature</a>, an attempt to create and standardize articles related to <a href="/wiki/Children%27s_literature" title="Children's literature">children's literature</a>. Feel free to help with any of the following tasks. </p> <table style="width:100%; background:none"> <tbody><tr> <td style="width:50px"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Things you can do"><img alt="Things you can do" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/75px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/100px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span> </td> <td style="text-align:left; padding:.3em 0"> <ul><li>Add {{Portal|Children's literature}} to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ALSO" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ALSO">See also section</a> of related articles.</li> <li>Tag the talk pages of related articles with <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature" title="Template:WikiProject Children's literature">WikiProject Children's literature</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span></li> <li>Join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature">WikiProject Children's literature</a> and list yourself as a <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature/Participants" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature/Participants">Participant</a></b> in the project.</li> <li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cleanup" title="Wikipedia:Cleanup">Cleanup</a>:</b> A <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://bambots.brucemyers.com/cwb/alpha/Children%27s_literature.html">cleanup listing for this project</a> is available. See also <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://bambots.brucemyers.com/cwb/bycat/Children's_literature.html">the list by category</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:CleanupWorklistBot" title="User:CleanupWorklistBot">the tool's wiki page</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://bambots.brucemyers.com/cwb/index.html">the index of WikiProjects</a>.</li> <li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting">Deletion discussions</a></b>: listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Literature" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Literature">Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Literature</a></li> <li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability" title="Wikipedia:Notability">Notability</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Notability/Listing_by_project/Page_4#Children.27sLiteratureWikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability/Listing by project/Page 4">Articles with notability concerns</a>, listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Notability" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability">WikiProject Notability</a></li> <li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/Assessment" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment">Rate</a></b> the <a href="/wiki/Category:Unassessed_children_and_young_adult_literature_articles" title="Category:Unassessed children and young adult literature articles">Unassessed articles</a> in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature">Children's literature WikiProject</a>.</li> <li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources" title="Wikipedia:Citing sources">References</a>:</b> Add references to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Children%27s_literature/Unreferenced_BLPs" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature/Unreferenced BLPs">Unreferenced BLPs</a>.</li> <li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles" title="Wikipedia:Requested articles">Requested articles</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Culture_and_fine_arts/Literature" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Requested articles/Culture and fine arts/Literature">Create a requested article on literature</a></li> <li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub" title="Wikipedia:Stub">Stubs</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Category:Stub-Class_children_and_young_adult_literature_articles" title="Category:Stub-Class children and young adult literature articles">Improve a stub-class article</a></li></ul> <div align="right"><small class="editlink noprint plainlinksneverexpand"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal:Children%27s_literature/Things_you_can_do&action=edit">edit</a></small></div> </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table id="breyes" class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-style" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/50px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/75px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/100px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1200" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is <b>written in <a href="/wiki/British_English" title="British English">British English</a> with <a href="/wiki/Oxford_spelling" title="Oxford spelling">Oxford spelling</a></b> (<i>colour</i>, <i>realize</i>, <i>organization</i>, <i>analyse</i>; note that <b>-ize</b> is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other <a href="/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_English" title="List of dialects of English">varieties of English</a>. According to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">relevant style guide</a>, this should not be changed without <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#Levels_of_consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">broad consensus</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style="width:100%; overflow:hidden;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a></span><br/><b>Archives</b></div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> </td></tr><tr><td class="plainlinks" style="padding:0px 10px; text-align:left;"> <ol><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit/Archive_1" title="Talk:The Hobbit/Archive 1">Dec 2001 – Feb 2008</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit/Archive_2" title="Talk:The Hobbit/Archive 2">June 2008 – Dec 2011</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit/Archive_3" title="Talk:The Hobbit/Archive 3">Jan 2012 – </a></li></ol> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="22" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:The Hobbit/" name="prefix"/><br/><input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </td></tr><tr><td style="padding:0px 10px; font-size:11.9px;"> <hr/> This page has archives. Sections older than <b>90 days</b> may be automatically archived by <span class="nowraplinks"><a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a></span> when more than 5 sections are present.</td></tr> </tbody></table> <p><br/> </p> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="A_Commons_file_used_on_this_page_or_its_Wikidata_item_has_been_nominated_for_deletion" data-mw-thread-id="h-A_Commons_file_used_on_this_page_or_its_Wikidata_item_has_been_nominated_for_del-20230514191600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-A_Commons_file_used_on_this_page_or_its_Wikidata_item_has_been_nominated_for_del-20230514191600"></span>A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion<span data-mw-comment-end="h-A_Commons_file_used_on_this_page_or_its_Wikidata_item_has_been_nominated_for_del-20230514191600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Hobbit&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Community_Tech_bot-20230514191600-A_Commons_file_used_on_this_page_or_its_Wikidata_item_has_been_nominated_for_del"></span>The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: </p> <ul><li><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Elvenking,_Erebor,_Esgaroth.svg" class="extiw" title="commons:File:Elvenking, Erebor, Esgaroth.svg">Elvenking, Erebor, Esgaroth.svg</a></li></ul> <p>Participate in the deletion discussion at the <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Maps_of_Middle-earth" class="extiw" title="commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Maps of Middle-earth">nomination page</a>. —<a href="/wiki/User:Community_Tech_bot" title="User:Community Tech bot">Community Tech bot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Community_Tech_bot" title="User talk:Community Tech bot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Community_Tech_bot-20230514191600-A_Commons_file_used_on_this_page_or_its_Wikidata_item_has_been_nominated_for_del" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:16, 14 May 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Community_Tech_bot-20230514191600-A_Commons_file_used_on_this_page_or_its_Wikidata_item_has_been_nominated_for_del"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Community_Tech_bot-20230514191600-A_Commons_file_used_on_this_page_or_its_Wikidata_item_has_been_nominated_for_del"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Titular_vs_Eponymous" data-mw-thread-id="h-Titular_vs_Eponymous-20230525052200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Titular_vs_Eponymous-20230525052200"></span>Titular vs Eponymous<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Titular_vs_Eponymous-20230525052200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Hobbit&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Titular vs Eponymous"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GimliDotNet-20230525052200-Titular_vs_Eponymous"></span>Bilbo is not the eponymous character, that has a very specific meaning. He is the <a href="/wiki/Titular_character" class="mw-redirect" title="Titular character">titular character</a>. We’ve had this discussion before, please see the archives for more information. <a href="/wiki/User:GimliDotNet" title="User:GimliDotNet">GimliDotNet</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GimliDotNet" title="User talk:GimliDotNet">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-GimliDotNet-20230525052200-Titular_vs_Eponymous" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:22, 25 May 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GimliDotNet-20230525052200-Titular_vs_Eponymous"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GimliDotNet-20230525052200-Titular_vs_Eponymous"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CapnZapp-20230525103600-GimliDotNet-20230525052200"></span>Just a heads-up: if you expect <a href="/wiki/Titular_character" class="mw-redirect" title="Titular character">titular character</a> to explain the difference between "eponymous character" and "titular character" for unaware readers, it does not. Cheers <a href="/wiki/User:CapnZapp" class="mw-redirect" title="User:CapnZapp">CapnZapp</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:CapnZapp" title="User talk:CapnZapp">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-CapnZapp-20230525103600-GimliDotNet-20230525052200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:36, 25 May 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CapnZapp-20230525103600-GimliDotNet-20230525052200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CapnZapp-20230525103600-GimliDotNet-20230525052200"></span></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-bottom:1px solid #a2a9b1;border-right:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-left:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CapnZapp-20230525110700-Titular_vs_Eponymous"></span>As a further nugget of info, there exists plenty of web sites<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> that claim "titular" needs to involve a title, sparking a debate whether "hobbit" should be consider a title like "king" or "boss". </p><p>These are wrong, or at the very least, incomplete. While many definitions of "titular" involve titles, not all of them do. It's sufficient the thing is named after something. It doesn't have to be <i>titled</i> after something, and it doesn't have to be named after a <i>title</i>. </p><p>In this case, the book's title is referring to our particular hobbit, so he is the title character, and "Hobbit" being a title doesn't matter. And our book doesn't bear his name, so he is not an eponymous character. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:CapnZapp" class="mw-redirect" title="User:CapnZapp">CapnZapp</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:CapnZapp" title="User talk:CapnZapp">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-CapnZapp-20230525110700-Titular_vs_Eponymous" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:07, 25 May 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CapnZapp-20230525110700-Titular_vs_Eponymous"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CapnZapp-20230525110700-Titular_vs_Eponymous"></span> </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.grunge.com/810431/are-you-using-titular-and-eponymous-correctly/">[1]</a> just one example</span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="recent_edit_summary" data-mw-thread-id="h-recent_edit_summary-20231107203800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-recent_edit_summary-20231107203800"></span>recent edit summary<span data-mw-comment-end="h-recent_edit_summary-20231107203800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Hobbit&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: recent edit summary"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CapnZapp-20231107203800-recent_edit_summary"></span>...that reads "true, but we must be very brief in these summaries, avoiding all minor details (I'm aware both that there are many, and that people love them to bits, but we still don't have space for them)" is using unfortunate phrasing. </p><p>First off, we are an online encyclopedia, not a printed work, so the whole "no space" idea is basically nonsense, but whatever, I'm not here to discuss that. What I would like to suggest is to drop the "we must" as if you're talking down to a child. One editor made the judgement call "hides it in his coat pocket" is sufficiently important to be included. Another editor thinks "hides it away" is sufficient. That is all. There's no right or wrong here, only different grades of judgement. There definitely is no rule saying "all" minor details must be "avoided". (And who are you to say whether a detail is minor or not anyway?). </p><p>As for the specific matter, I mostly think this edit summary is severely overblown for a fourteen character difference - even if it makes the text "blow" past a recommended limitation, it still does so only by... 14 characters! As a <i>very</i> secondary consideration: since the location of the Arkenstone never comes up again in the plot summary, I would edge towards the shorter text. (Hint: If the summary only has space to talk about what is in Bilbo's pockets ONCE, it certainly should focus on what was in them during his Gollum meet...!) </p><p>Pinging <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Chiswick_Chap" title="User:Chiswick Chap">Chiswick Chap</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:Paul_of_Redmont" title="User:Paul of Redmont">Paul of Redmont</a>:</span> <a href="/wiki/User:CapnZapp" class="mw-redirect" title="User:CapnZapp">CapnZapp</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:CapnZapp" title="User talk:CapnZapp">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-CapnZapp-20231107203800-recent_edit_summary" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:38, 7 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CapnZapp-20231107203800-recent_edit_summary"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CapnZapp-20231107203800-recent_edit_summary"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chiswick_Chap-20231107210100-CapnZapp-20231107203800"></span>Thanks for sharing your feelings so clearly. My point is simply that there are dozens, probably hundreds of similar details which someone undoubtedly thinks significant, even specially important. The job of the summary is to give a brief, neutral overview of the basic outline of the plot. It isn't the case that it can be of any length; many editors feel it should never exceed a few hundred words, others that it should be under a third of the article, and certainly not dominating the text cited to other authors, scholars, and reviewers to demonstrate the work's notability: so that the article's quality goes down as the plot summary length goes up. The summary of course does not contribute to notability at all, and an all-plot article is deletion-ready. Perhaps with this background you may view extending the plot summary rather as a cost than as a benefit. All the best, <a href="/wiki/User:Chiswick_Chap" title="User:Chiswick Chap">Chiswick Chap</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chiswick_Chap" title="User talk:Chiswick Chap">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Chiswick_Chap-20231107210100-CapnZapp-20231107203800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chiswick_Chap-20231107210100-CapnZapp-20231107203800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chiswick_Chap-20231107210100-CapnZapp-20231107203800"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Strebe-20231107235500-CapnZapp-20231107203800"></span>This article used to regularly accumulate such edits, so every once in awhile, we would go do yet another overhaul to pare it back to something readable and devoid of trivial details. Regular editors of this page are more vigilant now. While there is subjectivity in what is trivial, asking the simple question of, “Does this help the reader understand the plot?” easily suggests paring away an edit such as is the subject of this conversation. <a href="/wiki/User:Strebe" title="User:Strebe">Strebe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Strebe" title="User talk:Strebe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Strebe-20231107235500-CapnZapp-20231107203800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Strebe-20231107235500-CapnZapp-20231107203800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Strebe-20231107235500-CapnZapp-20231107203800"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Sales_figures" data-mw-thread-id="h-Sales_figures-20240422195400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Sales_figures-20240422195400"></span>Sales figures<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Sales_figures-20240422195400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Hobbit&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Sales figures"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Strebe-20240422195400-Sales_figures"></span>With regard to <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Hobbit&diff=prev&oldid=1220270805">this edit</a>, I don’t think that source is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RELIABLE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RELIABLE">reliable</a>. Some online “lifestyle shopping” article is in no position to do the research needed (which, it turns out is very hard) and gives no reference. It doesn’t seems likely that another 42 million copies have sold since the 2012 estimates already cited in the article. I keep seeing numbers online in the neighborhood of 140 million, but they’re all citing each other, when they cite at all, in an echo chamber with no input from experts. <a href="/wiki/User:Strebe" title="User:Strebe">Strebe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Strebe" title="User talk:Strebe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Strebe-20240422195400-Sales_figures" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Strebe-20240422195400-Sales_figures"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Strebe-20240422195400-Sales_figures"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Verbarson-20240422200300-Strebe-20240422195400"></span>It's the best I could come up with (obviously) and it is neither a primary source (not that the publishers seem to wave many figures about that I could see) nor a fan blog. Short of <a href="/wiki/Mythlore" title="Mythlore">Mythlore</a> or the like suddenly deciding to publish regular sales figures, I suppose we're dependent on some scholar happening to mention a number in their academic paper - and where would they get that from? Where did the 2012 sources get their data? Is there a respectable (but non-primary) industry source for such information? <span class="nowrap"><a href="/wiki/User:Verbarson" title="User:Verbarson">-- Verbarson </a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Verbarson" title="User talk:Verbarson">talk</a></sup><sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Verbarson" title="Special:Contributions/Verbarson">edits</a></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Verbarson-20240422200300-Strebe-20240422195400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Verbarson-20240422200300-Strebe-20240422195400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Verbarson-20240422200300-Strebe-20240422195400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chiswick_Chap-20240422202400-Verbarson-20240422200300"></span>It does not look even slightly reliable, the number plucked out of the air with no referent: US sales? Hardback? 2020? 2010? 2000? Or since when Who? Who knows? Why is there exactly one casually-mentioned number? We really can't do that. <a href="/wiki/User:Chiswick_Chap" title="User:Chiswick Chap">Chiswick Chap</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chiswick_Chap" title="User talk:Chiswick Chap">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Chiswick_Chap-20240422202400-Verbarson-20240422200300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:24, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chiswick_Chap-20240422202400-Verbarson-20240422200300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chiswick_Chap-20240422202400-Verbarson-20240422200300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Verbarson-20240422212500-Chiswick_Chap-20240422202400"></span>OK, I have reverted it. <span class="nowrap"><a href="/wiki/User:Verbarson" title="User:Verbarson">-- Verbarson </a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Verbarson" title="User talk:Verbarson">talk</a></sup><sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Verbarson" title="Special:Contributions/Verbarson">edits</a></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Verbarson-20240422212500-Chiswick_Chap-20240422202400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:25, 22 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Verbarson-20240422212500-Chiswick_Chap-20240422202400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Verbarson-20240422212500-Chiswick_Chap-20240422202400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="picaresque?" data-mw-thread-id="h-picaresque?-20240803060200"><span id="picaresque.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-picaresque?-20240803060200"></span>picaresque?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-picaresque?-20240803060200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Hobbit&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: picaresque?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2.96.131.187-20240803060200-picaresque?"></span>i do not think the novel should be described as picaresque. it isnt satirical or ironic at all? <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2.96.131.187" title="Special:Contributions/2.96.131.187">2.96.131.187</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2.96.131.187&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2.96.131.187 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-2.96.131.187-20240803060200-picaresque?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2.96.131.187-20240803060200-picaresque?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2.96.131.187-20240803060200-picaresque?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Verbarson-20240803165400-2.96.131.187-20240803060200"></span>Compared to the defining characteristics given in the article <a href="/wiki/Picaresque_novel" title="Picaresque novel">Picaresque novel</a>, <i>The Hobbit</i> is: <ul><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="check" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><span style="display:none">Y</span> Basically autobiographical, once we count its origin in Bilbo's <i><a href="/wiki/Red_Book_of_Westmarch" title="Red Book of Westmarch">Red Book of Westmarch</a></i></li> <li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="check" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><span style="display:none">Y</span> Bilbo is considered low-class by the dwarves. He gets by on his wits; his only employment is as a burglar.</li> <li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="☒" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/20px-X_mark.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/30px-X_mark.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/40px-X_mark.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="525" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><span style="display:none">N</span> There is plenty of plot, which comes in <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="check" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><span style="display:none">Y</span> episodic form</li> <li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="☒" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/20px-X_mark.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/30px-X_mark.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/40px-X_mark.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="525" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><span style="display:none">N</span> Bilbo's character develops</li> <li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="check" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><span style="display:none">Y</span> The language is plain and realistic; it just happens to concern some magical events</li> <li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="☒" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/20px-X_mark.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/30px-X_mark.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/40px-X_mark.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="525" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><span style="display:none">N</span> There is little satire</li> <li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="check" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><span style="display:none">Y</span> Bilbo's 'crimes' are driven by his morality, he is both sympathetic and an outsider in most parts of the story</li></ul></dd> <dd>The article also specifies that, especially in in English use, 'picaresque' may refer to a novel with only some of these elements. Satire is not necessarily an essential part of the definition, not does it mention irony at all.</dd> <dd>Overall, I would say that picaresque is a fair description. <span class="nowrap"><a href="/wiki/User:Verbarson" title="User:Verbarson">-- Verbarson </a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Verbarson" title="User talk:Verbarson">talk</a></sup><sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Verbarson" title="Special:Contributions/Verbarson">edits</a></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Verbarson-20240803165400-2.96.131.187-20240803060200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:54, 3 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Verbarson-20240803165400-2.96.131.187-20240803060200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Verbarson-20240803165400-2.96.131.187-20240803060200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chiswick_Chap-20240803180000-Verbarson-20240803165400"></span>Yes. Also, it has been described as such by scholars, so don't just take our word for it. In the article it's cited to James L. Hodge, as you'd have seen if you looked at the article body; we normally don't cite the lead/summary as well. <a href="/wiki/User:Chiswick_Chap" title="User:Chiswick Chap">Chiswick Chap</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chiswick_Chap" title="User talk:Chiswick Chap">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Chiswick_Chap-20240803180000-Verbarson-20240803165400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:00, 3 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chiswick_Chap-20240803180000-Verbarson-20240803165400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chiswick_Chap-20240803180000-Verbarson-20240803165400"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dimadick-20240804131300-Verbarson-20240803165400"></span>Satire is not necessary for the <a href="/wiki/Picaresque" class="mw-redirect" title="Picaresque">picaresque</a> genre, but the genre typicaly portrays and criticizes "a corrupt society" and its <a href="/wiki/Hypocritical" class="mw-redirect" title="Hypocritical">hypocritical</a> or false rules. Which is why works by the likes of <a href="/wiki/Charles_Dickens" title="Charles Dickens">Charles Dickens</a> and <a href="/wiki/Mark_Twain" title="Mark Twain">Mark Twain</a> are considered part of the genre. But is Tolkien actually using <i>The Hobbit</i> for <a href="/wiki/Social_criticism" title="Social criticism">social criticism</a>?<a href="/wiki/User:Dimadick" title="User:Dimadick">Dimadick</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dimadick" title="User talk:Dimadick">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Dimadick-20240804131300-Verbarson-20240803165400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dimadick-20240804131300-Verbarson-20240803165400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dimadick-20240804131300-Verbarson-20240803165400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chiswick_Chap-20240804132000-Dimadick-20240804131300"></span>Unlikely. What is certain is that we have cited chapter and verse for the description of the book as picaresque, as I've indicated already, so we do not need to ruminate on the question. <a href="/wiki/User:Chiswick_Chap" title="User:Chiswick Chap">Chiswick Chap</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chiswick_Chap" title="User talk:Chiswick Chap">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Hobbit#c-Chiswick_Chap-20240804132000-Dimadick-20240804131300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:20, 4 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chiswick_Chap-20240804132000-Dimadick-20240804131300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chiswick_Chap-20240804132000-Dimadick-20240804131300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; 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