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<div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle"><div class="subpages">< <bdi dir="ltr"><a href="/wiki/Help_talk:IPA" title="Help talk:IPA">Help talk:IPA</a></bdi> | <bdi dir="ltr"><a href="/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish" title="Help talk:IPA/Spanish">Spanish</a></bdi></div></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox 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discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the <a href="/wiki/Help_talk:IPA" title="Help talk:IPA">current talk page</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <table style="text-align:center;margin:0 auto 0.5em;max-width:35em;width:100%;width:-moz-available;width:-webkit-fill-available;width:stretch"><tbody><tr><td><a href="/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_1" title="Help talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive 1">Archive 1</a></td><td>←</td><td><a href="/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_3" title="Help talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive 3">Archive 3</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_4" title="Help talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive 4">Archive 4</a></td><td><span style="font-size:115%;"><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Archive 5</a></span></td></tr></tbody></table> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s⟩"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s-20230417135500"><span id=".22In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key.2C_however.2C_it_is_always_represented_by_.E2.9F.A8s.E2.9F.A9.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s-20230417135500"></span>"In transcriptions linked to this key, however, it is always represented by ⟨s⟩"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s-20230417135500"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Durazno_Department&diff=prev&oldid=1150321981&diffmode=source"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230417135500-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s"></span>Here</a>, an editor argues that <i>Durazno</i> ought to be transcribed <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[duˈɾasno]</span> and not <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[duˈɾazno]</span> because Uruguayan Spanish features aspiration and in note 7, we say that <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">In much of Hispanic America and in the southern half of Spain, <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/s/</span> in syllable-final positions is either pronounced as <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[h]</span> or not pronounced at all. In transcriptions linked to this key, however, it is always represented by ⟨<span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA" lang="und-Latn-fonipa">s</span>⟩.</q> I'm really tired of edit warring (in either direction) so should the note be changed? <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230417135500-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:55, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230417135500-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230417135500-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230417140500-Sol505000-20230417135500"></span>The <a href="/wiki/Spirit_of_the_law" class="mw-redirect" title="Spirit of the law">spirit</a> of the note is that we don't use <span class="nowrap">⟨h⟩</span> for /s/. I think we should change the note to include <span class="nowrap">⟨z⟩</span>, because otherwise [duˈɾasno] would imply, incorrectly, that accents that voice /s/ do <i>not</i> voice it in this particular word. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230417140500-Sol505000-20230417135500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:05, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230417140500-Sol505000-20230417135500"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230417140500-Sol505000-20230417135500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mx._Granger-20230417140600-Nardog-20230417140500"></span>For Uruguay articles, my preference would be to use the narrow transcription [duˈɾahno], but I can live with the broad transcription [duˈɾasno] as currently recommended by note 7. But I oppose giving a transcription like [duˈɾazno] in an article about a place in Uruguay, as that transcription is not accurate for Uruguayan Spanish. —<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mx._Granger" title="User talk:Mx. Granger">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mx._Granger" title="Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Mx._Granger-20230417140600-Nardog-20230417140500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:06, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mx._Granger-20230417140600-Nardog-20230417140500"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mx._Granger-20230417140600-Nardog-20230417140500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230417141300-Mx._Granger-20230417140600"></span>But the key does not currently cover such dialectal variations. Notice it doesn't allow <span class="nowrap">⟨ʒ⟩</span> or <span class="nowrap">⟨ʃ⟩</span> in place of <span class="nowrap">⟨ʎ, ʝ⟩</span>. If you want to represent a specific local pronunciation, you should give it in <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:IPA-all" title="Template:IPA-all">IPA-all</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> following <span class="nowrap">{{IPA-es}}</span>, per <a href="/wiki/MOS:PRON" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:PRON">MOS:PRON</a>, as done in e.g. <a href="/wiki/Juan_Guaid%C3%B3" title="Juan Guaidó">Juan Guaidó</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230417141300-Mx._Granger-20230417140600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:13, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230417141300-Mx._Granger-20230417140600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230417141300-Mx._Granger-20230417140600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mx._Granger-20230417142700-Nardog-20230417141300"></span>Thanks for those links. I'm okay with providing both pronunciations ([duˈɾahno] and [duˈɾazno]) as done at <a href="/wiki/Juan_Guaid%C3%B3" title="Juan Guaidó">Juan Guaidó</a>. <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a>:</span> Does this solution work for you? —<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mx._Granger" title="User talk:Mx. Granger">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mx._Granger" title="Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Mx._Granger-20230417142700-Nardog-20230417141300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:27, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mx._Granger-20230417142700-Nardog-20230417141300"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mx._Granger-20230417142700-Nardog-20230417141300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230417151100-Mx._Granger-20230417142700"></span>Not really. As the key covers this variation in the notes I see no reason to explicitly transcribe the s-aspiration in that article or anywhere else on Wikipedia (except in a very narrow subset of articles such as <a href="/wiki/Spanish_phonology" title="Spanish phonology">Spanish phonology</a>, <a href="/wiki/Rioplatense_Spanish" title="Rioplatense Spanish">Rioplatense Spanish</a> and what have you). Our IPA guides cover far more than the literal reading of the IPA - consider the German <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/ʁ/</span> after short vowels, which can be either <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[<a href="/wiki/Voiced_uvular_fricative" title="Voiced uvular fricative">ʁ</a>]</span> or <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[ɐ̯]</span>, a consonant or a semivowel. We always transcribe it with ⟨<span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA" lang="und-Latn-fonipa">ʁ</span>⟩ but that does not mean that we prescribe that pronunciation (we had one user who kept arguing that we do - we had to point him to the introductory chapters of the two biggest German pronunciation dictionaries which he presumably hadn't read before).</dd> <dd>We also use the symbol ⟨<span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA" lang="und-Latn-fonipa">s</span>⟩ to cover a range of pronunciations that are not that similar. In the syllable onset, the apico-alveolar <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/s/</span> of Northern Spain is significantly different from the laminal <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/s/</span> found in much of Central and South America, and yet we use the same symbol for it. The difference is significant enough for the sounds to pass for separate phonemes in other languages, as they do in Basque (and also Polish and Serbian, which have very similar sounds). The auditory difference between the laminal <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[<a href="/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_fricative" title="Voiceless alveolar fricative">s</a>]</span> and the glottal <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[<a href="/wiki/Voiceless_glottal_fricative" title="Voiceless glottal fricative">h</a>]</span> is only somewhat bigger. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230417151100-Mx._Granger-20230417142700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230417151100-Mx._Granger-20230417142700"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230417151100-Mx._Granger-20230417142700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mx._Granger-20230417152000-Sol505000-20230417151100"></span>I'm fine with using ⟨s⟩ broadly in this way (i.e. [duˈɾasno]). But using ⟨z⟩ implies the presence of an allophone that does not exist in this context in Uruguayan Spanish. The transcription is included in the article to inform the reader about how the city's name is pronounced locally – so in this article the transcription [duˈɾazno] is actively misleading, and [duˈɾahno] is the most informative option. —<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mx._Granger" title="User talk:Mx. Granger">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mx._Granger" title="Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Mx._Granger-20230417152000-Sol505000-20230417151100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:20, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mx._Granger-20230417152000-Sol505000-20230417151100"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mx._Granger-20230417152000-Sol505000-20230417151100"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230417152600-Mx._Granger-20230417152000"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a>:</span> <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[duˈɾazno]</span> is just as non-local as <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[duˈɾasno]</span>, as far as I can see.</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The transcription is included in the article to inform the reader about how the city's name is pronounced locally</q> I have to reiterate my point about non-literal readings of the IPA. Those of our readers who bother to read the guide will know that <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/s/</span> can be aspirated at the end of the syllable. There is nothing special about <i>Durasno</i> or even Uruguayan Spanish in that it aspirates coda <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/s/</span>. Millions of speakers of Spanish from all around the world do that. It is an entirely unremarkable pronuncation. And before vowels (so not in this case, but in other words), there is an awful lot of variation among individual speakers, dialects and styles of speech. It's not worth the hassle to allow such transcriptions. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230417152600-Mx._Granger-20230417152000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:26, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230417152600-Mx._Granger-20230417152000"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230417152600-Mx._Granger-20230417152000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230417153100-Sol505000-20230417152600"></span>We can't expect every reader to read the guide in its entirety in order to even roughly understand what pronunciation a transcription represents. At that point why include any allohpone at all. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230417153100-Sol505000-20230417152600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:31, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230417153100-Sol505000-20230417152600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230417153100-Sol505000-20230417152600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230417153400-Nardog-20230417153100"></span>If we can't expect the readers to do that then why have those guides in the first place? <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230417153400-Nardog-20230417153100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:34, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230417153400-Nardog-20230417153100"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230417153400-Nardog-20230417153100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230417160300-Sol505000-20230417153400"></span>If you were designing a car, a boombox, an app, or whatever—would you do it in such way that the users are required to read the manual in full in order to make even casual use of it? Again otherwise why include allophones at all. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230417160300-Sol505000-20230417153400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230417160300-Sol505000-20230417153400"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230417160300-Sol505000-20230417153400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mx._Granger-20230417153700-Sol505000-20230417152600"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk"><span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[duˈɾazno]</span> is just as non-local as <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[duˈɾasno]</span>, as far as I can see.</q> I would say [duˈɾazno] is worse than [duˈɾasno] for this article, in that [duˈɾasno] is a plausible broad transcription of the Uruguayan pronunciation, whereas [duˈɾazno] shows allophonic variation that applies to certain dialects but not to Uruguayan Spanish. —<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mx._Granger" title="User talk:Mx. Granger">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mx._Granger" title="Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Mx._Granger-20230417153700-Sol505000-20230417152600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:37, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mx._Granger-20230417153700-Sol505000-20230417152600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mx._Granger-20230417153700-Sol505000-20230417152600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230417154000-Sol505000-20230417152600"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">It's not worth the hassle to allow such transcriptions.</q> It <i>is</i> allowed, by <a href="/wiki/MOS:PRON" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:PRON">MOS:PRON</a>, and just because it is doesn't mean IPA-es <i>must</i> be followed by IPA-all. It's entirely up to the discretion of editors of each article, as is whether to include any transcription. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230417154000-Sol505000-20230417152600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230417154000-Sol505000-20230417152600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230417154000-Sol505000-20230417152600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230417154800-Nardog-20230417154000"></span>I've re-read the MOS and what you're saying is true - but my point still stands. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230417154800-Nardog-20230417154000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230417154800-Nardog-20230417154000"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230417154800-Nardog-20230417154000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230417160400-Sol505000-20230417154800"></span>Now you know you're the one who has to establish new consensus. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230417160400-Sol505000-20230417154800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230417160400-Sol505000-20230417154800"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230417160400-Sol505000-20230417154800"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><s><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Facu-el_Millo-20230418021500-Nardog-20230417154000"></span>It's true that <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[duˈɾazno]</span> would be worse than <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[duˈɾasno]</span>, given that pronouncing the Z and the C with a lisp-like sound is done pretty much only in Spain, whereas in all of <a href="/wiki/Hispanic_America" title="Hispanic America">Hispanic America</a>, the Z and the C are pronounced like an S, and selectively aspirated in some regions and in specific placements within words and sentences. —<i><a href="/wiki/User:Facu-el_Millo" title="User:Facu-el Millo">El Millo</a></i> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Facu-el_Millo" title="User talk:Facu-el Millo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Facu-el_Millo-20230418021500-Nardog-20230417154000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:15, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a></s><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Facu-el_Millo-20230418021500-Nardog-20230417154000"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Facu-el_Millo-20230418021500-Nardog-20230417154000"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230418023700-Facu-el_Millo-20230418021500"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Facu-el_Millo" title="User:Facu-el Millo">Facu-el Millo</a>:</span> In IPA, ⟨<span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA" lang="und-Latn-fonipa">z</span>⟩ stands for the <a href="/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_fricative" title="Voiced alveolar fricative">voiced alveolar fricative</a>, not the <a href="/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative" title="Voiceless dental fricative">voiceless dental fricative</a>. You're mistaking IPA for Spanish orthography. With that being said, <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[duˈɾasno]</span> is absolutely the worst choice. It both disagrees with the guide <i>and</i> it is not a local pronunciation. I don't consider it to be an option. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230418023700-Facu-el_Millo-20230418021500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:37, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230418023700-Facu-el_Millo-20230418021500"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230418023700-Facu-el_Millo-20230418021500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Facu-el_Millo-20230418024900-Sol505000-20230418023700"></span>Oh, mi mistake. Struck, then. —<i><a href="/wiki/User:Facu-el_Millo" title="User:Facu-el Millo">El Millo</a></i> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Facu-el_Millo" title="User talk:Facu-el Millo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Facu-el_Millo-20230418024900-Sol505000-20230418023700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:49, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Facu-el_Millo-20230418024900-Sol505000-20230418023700"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Facu-el_Millo-20230418024900-Sol505000-20230418023700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230417151100-Mx._Granger-20230417140600"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a>:</span> And why does <a href="/wiki/Juan_Guaid%C3%B3" title="Juan Guaidó">Juan Guaidó</a> have a regional pronunciation at all? We cover seseo in the guide and the trivial difference of ⟨<span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA" lang="und-Latn-fonipa">x</span>⟩ vs. ⟨<span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA" lang="und-Latn-fonipa">h</span>⟩ is also covered here (in the notes section, that is). <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230417151100-Mx._Granger-20230417140600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230417151100-Mx._Granger-20230417140600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230417151100-Mx._Granger-20230417140600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230417152300-Sol505000-20230417151100"></span>Because this is phonetic transcription. Diaphonemic notation isn't something widely practiced even in linguistic literature or reference works, let alone something readers of Wikipedia can reasonably be expected to be familiar with. If the key was diaphonemic it shouldn't include allophones like [z], as Mx. Granger points out. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230417152300-Sol505000-20230417151100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230417152300-Sol505000-20230417151100"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230417152300-Sol505000-20230417151100"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230417153200-Nardog-20230417152300"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a>:</span> But we already allow seseo to be shown. Do we really need to bother with showing the difference between ⟨<span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA" lang="und-Latn-fonipa">x</span>⟩ vs. ⟨<span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA" lang="und-Latn-fonipa">h</span>⟩? Has it even been proven to be an actual difference? Voiceless velar fricatives can be weakly fricated while still being velar, as in Serbo-Croatian and Polish. And you have an onset, pre-velar <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/x/</span> in <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[xwan]</span>. Is that too retracted to the glottal place of articulation? I'd expect exactly these instances of <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/x/</span> to be far more forceful (in dialects claimed to have a glottal <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/x/</span>) than a prevocalic <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/x/</span> in order not to turn <i>Juan</i> into <i>Uan</i>, a pronunciation widely mocked as an Americanism.</dd> <dd>As <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/s/</span>-aspiration is so common (and variable, especially before vowels) I find this practice to be a waste of article space. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230417153200-Nardog-20230417152300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230417153200-Nardog-20230417152300"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230417153200-Nardog-20230417152300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erinius-20230418063600-Sol505000-20230417135500"></span>Comment: There isn't any reason to oppose more specific, local pronunciations with <a href="/wiki/Template:IPA-all" title="Template:IPA-all">IPA-all</a> following IPA-es templates in general, even though the local pronunciation can be derived from the IPA-es transcription (and usually spelling as well). They just provide more info to the reader.</dd> <dd>Also, why not change the guide to allow [duˈɾasno]? Or at least change footnote 9 to mention that [-z] and [-v] sometimes remain as [-s] and [-f]. Because -s and -f aren't ALWAYS voiced before voiced consonants. -s frequently remains voiceless, especially in slow, careful speech, and most of the Latin American pronunciations of 'durazno' on Forvo have [s]. Likewise, I've tried this twice before, it's actually not that easy to find video or audio examples of -f being voiced. Like @<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> said, [duˈɾazno] very well may be the most non-local pronunciation being considered, showing an allophonic process that (supposedly) doesn't occur in Uruguay. This guide already lets [θ] represent both a voiceless and an allophonically voiced dental fricative. <a href="/wiki/User:Erinius" title="User:Erinius">Erinius</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erinius" title="User talk:Erinius">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Erinius-20230418063600-Sol505000-20230417135500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erinius-20230418063600-Sol505000-20230417135500"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erinius-20230418063600-Sol505000-20230417135500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erinius-20230418065900-Erinius-20230418063600"></span>I found the Spanish version of Hualde's *The Sounds of Spanish* - I couldn't find the English version on Cambridge Core - in the Fricatives chapter, pages 154-155 he says "<span title="Spanish-language text"><i lang="es">En los dialectos donde normalmente se mantiene la /s/ en la coda, esta a menudo se asimila en sonoridad a una consonante sonora, tanto en el interior de palabra, mismo [mízmo], como entre palabras, dos más [dóz más]. Aunque usamos el símbolo [z], este sonido a veces solo es parcialmente sonoro.</i></span>" My translation: "In dialects where coda /s/ is normally maintained, it frequently assimilates in voicing to a voiced consonant, both word-internally, mismo [mizmo], and between words, dos más [doz mas]. Although we use the symbol [z], this sound is sometimes just partially voiced." Key points being that this is about dialects where syllable-final /s/ is maintained and that this assimilation is frequent but not categorical.</dd> <dd>As for syllable-final -f, Hualde simply says that it becomes voiced before voiced consonants, without saying whether that always happens or whether it's a variable process. There are very few words with that kind of consonant sequence, so it's not like it matters much. <a href="/wiki/User:Erinius" title="User:Erinius">Erinius</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erinius" title="User talk:Erinius">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Erinius-20230418065900-Erinius-20230418063600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erinius-20230418065900-Erinius-20230418063600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erinius-20230418065900-Erinius-20230418063600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230418101800-Erinius-20230418065900"></span>A more empirical source on the variability of /s/ voicing is <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1017/9781316779194.009">Campos-Astorkiza (2018)</a> (you might find <a href="https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%8E%E3%83%BC%E3%83%88:%E3%82%B8%E3%82%A7%E3%82%A4%E3%82%B9%E3%83%A2" class="extiw" title="ja:ノート:ジェイスモ">this</a> interesting). But if something is sometimes present and sometimes not, we can't just throw up our hands and say "whichever you feel like". That defeats the whole point of a key. If we're including [z, v] at all then we should always do it. Just use IPA-all for local realizations. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230418101800-Erinius-20230418065900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:18, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230418101800-Erinius-20230418065900"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230418101800-Erinius-20230418065900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mx._Granger-20230418133600-Nardog-20230418101800"></span>Maybe we should remove [z] from the key altogether. The key is apparently intended to be used for articles about topics across the Spanish-speaking world, so it makes sense, where feasible, to use broad transcriptions that are valid for more dialects rather than narrower transcriptions showing allophones that are valid for fewer dialects. So it might make sense to modify the key to only use [s] as a broad transcription for what varies between [s], [z], and [h] depending on dialect and phonological environment. As <a href="/wiki/User:Erinius" title="User:Erinius">Erinius</a> points out, this would also be more consistent with how the key uses [θ] as a broad transcription for voiced and unvoiced realizations of /θ/. —<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mx._Granger" title="User talk:Mx. Granger">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mx._Granger" title="Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Mx._Granger-20230418133600-Nardog-20230418101800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mx._Granger-20230418133600-Nardog-20230418101800"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mx._Granger-20230418133600-Nardog-20230418101800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230418134700-Mx._Granger-20230418133600"></span>You mean remove <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[z]</span> and <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[v]</span>, right? <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230418134700-Mx._Granger-20230418133600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:47, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230418134700-Mx._Granger-20230418133600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230418134700-Mx._Granger-20230418133600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mx._Granger-20230418135800-Sol505000-20230418134700"></span>We could remove [v] too. As far as I know [v] doesn't present the same problem as [z], because there's no equivalent to aspiration for /f/, but it might make sense to harmonize our handling of all of these sounds. —<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mx._Granger" title="User talk:Mx. Granger">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mx._Granger" title="Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Mx._Granger-20230418135800-Sol505000-20230418134700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:58, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mx._Granger-20230418135800-Sol505000-20230418134700"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mx._Granger-20230418135800-Sol505000-20230418134700"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230418135400-Mx._Granger-20230418133600"></span>I would be extremely reluctant to allow <span class="nowrap">⟨h⟩</span> as it could open doors to zheísmo/sheísmo, prepausal [ŋ], /e, o/ raising, etc. ad infinitum. Granted, we allow seseo and yeísmo, but those at least involve mergers in the overall phonological inventory. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230418135400-Mx._Granger-20230418133600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:54, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230418135400-Mx._Granger-20230418133600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230418135400-Mx._Granger-20230418133600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mx._Granger-20230418135800-Nardog-20230418135400"></span>Right, my suggestion is that the key only use [s], as a broad transcription for these sounds, and not try to handle dialect-specific realizations as [h] and [z]. —<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mx._Granger" title="User talk:Mx. Granger">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mx._Granger" title="Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Mx._Granger-20230418135800-Nardog-20230418135400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:58, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mx._Granger-20230418135800-Nardog-20230418135400"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mx._Granger-20230418135800-Nardog-20230418135400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230418140900-Mx._Granger-20230418135800"></span>Yeah, if it's simply about always representing /s/ with <span class="nowrap">⟨s⟩</span> then I can get behind it. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230418140900-Mx._Granger-20230418135800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:09, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230418140900-Mx._Granger-20230418135800"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230418140900-Mx._Granger-20230418135800"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230418142400-Mx._Granger-20230418135800"></span>I have no objections either. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230418142400-Mx._Granger-20230418135800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:24, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230418142400-Mx._Granger-20230418135800"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230418142400-Mx._Granger-20230418135800"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erinius-20230418183800-Mx._Granger-20230418135800"></span>I'm fine with this as well. @<a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> - thanks for the Campos-Astorzika source. <a href="/wiki/User:Erinius" title="User:Erinius">Erinius</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erinius" title="User talk:Erinius">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Erinius-20230418183800-Mx._Granger-20230418135800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erinius-20230418183800-Mx._Granger-20230418135800"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erinius-20230418183800-Mx._Granger-20230418135800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mx._Granger-20230421133700-Erinius-20230418183800"></span>Great! Based on the agreement here, I've changed the key to remove <span class="nowrap">⟨z⟩</span>. Feel free to adjust further or clarify the footnotes as needed, of course. If there are no objections, in a day or two I'll start going through articles that use <a href="/wiki/Template:IPA-es" title="Template:IPA-es">Template:IPA-es</a> and updating them accordingly. —<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mx._Granger" title="User talk:Mx. Granger">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mx._Granger" title="Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Mx._Granger-20230421133700-Erinius-20230418183800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mx._Granger-20230421133700-Erinius-20230418183800"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mx._Granger-20230421133700-Erinius-20230418183800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230424232900-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s"></span>Regarding the topic, I'm not sure what to do with <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yulimar_Rojas&action=history">this</a>. This person absolutely refuses to create a thread here or on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Pronunciation#Other_languages" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation#Other languages</a> and they just keep talking to me and edit warring. I find this behavior to be insufferable and so I'm writing here. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230424232900-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230424232900-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230424232900-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mx._Granger-20230425002000-Sol505000-20230424232900"></span>Pinging <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Kingsif" title="User:Kingsif">Kingsif</a>:</span> to let him know about this discussion. —<a href="/wiki/User:Mx._Granger" title="User:Mx. Granger">Mx. Granger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mx._Granger" title="User talk:Mx. Granger">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mx._Granger" title="Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Mx._Granger-20230425002000-Sol505000-20230424232900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:20, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mx._Granger-20230425002000-Sol505000-20230424232900"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mx._Granger-20230425002000-Sol505000-20230424232900"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kingsif-20230425002800-Sol505000-20230424232900"></span>First, I haven't edit warred at any point, and your insistence that I have while also slinging around the accusation even in my first revert of you is the true insufferable editing. You are being reported for incivility, as you have blocked my attempts at discussion with countless insults and by trying to create your own narrative.</dd> <dd>To the point: I have told you many times that my issue is not with the MOS, rather how <i>some users</i> decide that people's names must be treated as common words, despite there being plenty sources of them saying their own names differently, and despite the sounds they do use being perfectly acceptable in the IPA help guides. That is, I have told you countless times that I do not want or need to start a discussion here, but that <i>you</i> need to both fix your attitude in engaging with others, and grow a little perspective. The point of IPA transcription is to show how something is actually said. You're not doing that. <a href="/wiki/User:Kingsif" title="User:Kingsif">Kingsif</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kingsif" title="User talk:Kingsif">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Kingsif-20230425002800-Sol505000-20230424232900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:28, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kingsif-20230425002800-Sol505000-20230424232900"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kingsif-20230425002800-Sol505000-20230424232900"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230425010000-Kingsif-20230425002800"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Kingsif" title="User:Kingsif">Kingsif</a>:</span> See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:EDITWARRING" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:EDITWARRING">WP:EDITWARRING</a>. You're forcing things to be your way through a series of repeated reverts, and this is a pattern of behavior. Don't mistake it with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:3RR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:3RR">WP:3RR</a> (and to quote <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:EDITWARRING" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:EDITWARRING">WP:EDITWARRING</a>, "The three-revert rule is a convenient limit for occasions when an edit war is happening fairly quickly; it is not a definition of "edit warring", and it is absolutely possible to engage in edit warring without breaking the three-revert rule, or even coming close to doing so." The intentions and patterns of behavior also count.)</dd> <dd>You can do that, but remember of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOOMERANG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOOMERANG">WP:BOOMERANG</a> which you might be already familiar with. Your behavior was less than <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CIVIL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CIVIL">WP:CIVIL</a> at multiple occasions. False accusations of stalking, "how dare you" with a caps-lock, suggestions of me having "a learning difficulty or something" and other things apart from the obvious (edit warring) immediately come to mind.</dd> <dd>I have never claimed that the transcription is wrong but that it disagrees with the guide. The transcription with a silent S disagrees with <a href="/wiki/Venezuelan_Spanish" title="Venezuelan Spanish">Venezuelan Spanish</a> but it may or may not be wrong. In Eastern Andalusian Spanish, it would be correct but with an adjustment of vowels (<span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[ɟʝuliˈmaɾ<span class="wrap"> </span>ˈrɔhæ]</span>).</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">That is, I have told you countless times that I do not want or need to start a discussion here, but that <i>you</i> need to both fix your attitude in engaging with others, and grow a little perspective.</q> We're not going to make this about me. Per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Pronunciation#Other_languages" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation#Other languages</a>, "<b>Other languages have dedicated IPA-xx templates</b>, where xx is the 2-letter <a href="/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-1_codes" class="mw-redirect" title="List of ISO 639-1 codes">ISO 639-1 code</a> or the 3-letter <a href="/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-3_codes" title="List of ISO 639-3 codes">ISO 639-3 code</a> for the language in question, as in <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:IPA-el" title="Template:IPA-el">IPA-el</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> for Greek or <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:IPA-fa" title="Template:IPA-fa">IPA-fa</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> for Persian. A number of languages also have dedicated templates that automatically convert ordinary letters (or conventional ASCII equivalents) to IPA characters that are used to transcribe the language in question, such as <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:IPAc-fr" title="Template:IPAc-fr">IPAc-fr</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> for French and <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:IPAc-cmn" title="Template:IPAc-cmn">IPAc-cmn</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> for Mandarin Chinese. These languages and templates are listed at <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:IPA" title="Template:IPA">IPA</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>. <b>Again, if the language you're transcribing has such an IPA key, use the conventions of that key.</b> If you wish to change those conventions, bring it up for discussion on the key's talk page. <b>Creating transcriptions unsupported by the key or changing the key so that it no longer conforms to existing transcriptions will confuse readers.</b>" To me this clearly means that we must use <a href="/wiki/Template:IPA-es" title="Template:IPA-es">Template:IPA-es</a> in addition to <a href="/wiki/Template:IPA-all" title="Template:IPA-all">Template:IPA-all</a> or just the former. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230425010000-Kingsif-20230425002800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:00, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230425010000-Kingsif-20230425002800"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230425010000-Kingsif-20230425002800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kingsif-20230425034500-Sol505000-20230425010000"></span>First, mate, I was never forcing things to be my way through reversions; I edited for compromise and opened discussions, you point-blank reverted and refused to discuss, and I attempted to revert to a stable version while continuing to push discussion. That's how it should happen. Maybe become more familiar with policy and <i>actually discussing with people</i> before slinging accusations.</dd> <dd>Second, my behaviour was never uncivil, perhaps a little curt, but the way you've removed things from context here is the same as you were doing by calling me an "edit warrior" when I had made all of one edit that wasn't even a reversion - attempting to create a narrative to smear me, which is worse than just uncivil.</dd> <dd>Third, this is entirely about you. I have only tried to discuss at this page, since it's the only place you seem willing to accept it, to address your hostile behaviour and your lack of common sense - I have realised that you are somehow unbudging and asking for an ear is pointless. Like, it is common sense to only use IPA-all if a specific language key may be correct for standard words but is too restrictive for a useful transcription in context. If it will force you to transcribe a word, especially a name, in a way that is not accurate, it shouldn't be used. I don't see how you don't get that. <a href="/wiki/User:Kingsif" title="User:Kingsif">Kingsif</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kingsif" title="User talk:Kingsif">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Kingsif-20230425034500-Sol505000-20230425010000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kingsif-20230425034500-Sol505000-20230425010000"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kingsif-20230425034500-Sol505000-20230425010000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230425102200-Kingsif-20230425034500"></span>If it is in the MOS then it is on <i>you</i> to try to change the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSENSUS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONSENSUS">WP:CONSENSUS</a> at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Pronunciation" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Pronunciation">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Pronunciation</a>. Your personal philosophies are entirely your business and I'd like to stop having them imposed on me (and Wikipedia in general, as evidenced by my previous message), as you've been doing all along. You're the one challenging the status quo, so you try to change it. So no, mate, this is not "entirely about me". You can't just link to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONSENSE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONSENSE">WP:COMMONSENSE</a> or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IAR">WP:IAR</a> and think that's the end of it. Other people can disagree. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230425102200-Kingsif-20230425034500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:22, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230425102200-Kingsif-20230425034500"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230425102200-Kingsif-20230425034500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kingsif-20230425003600-Sol505000-20230424232900"></span>If I can say something on this main discussion: that note would be correct for, say, a common noun like "tres". You're going to hear people saying "treh" in common parlance, but the word is "tres". I assume that the note 7 mentioned was written with that in mind. I assume that none of the current editors on the topic were around when it was written, though, looking at this. In names, 'rules' can go out the window. That seems to be the main point of all contentions. I do not understand why some people editing in this space are so wedded to some phonology guidebook that they can't see the wood for the trees. Those guides clearly don't apply to names, and if the sound exists, the sound exists, put it in the transcription, because the only point of having one is to help people know how things <i>are</i> said. You shouldn't need a formal discussion to apply common sense, but if starting one titled "IAR on names" would help, do it. <a href="/wiki/User:Kingsif" title="User:Kingsif">Kingsif</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kingsif" title="User talk:Kingsif">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Kingsif-20230425003600-Sol505000-20230424232900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:36, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kingsif-20230425003600-Sol505000-20230424232900"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kingsif-20230425003600-Sol505000-20230424232900"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230425010200-Kingsif-20230425003600"></span>If we're going to ignore all rules in the case of IPA transcriptions of names then this guide might as well be deleted. I find this a completely unreasonable proposition. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230425010200-Kingsif-20230425003600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230425010200-Kingsif-20230425003600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230425010200-Kingsif-20230425003600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kingsif-20230425035000-Sol505000-20230425010200"></span>Even you must know you've jumped to the extreme here. Most words are not names, many names are said how you insist they have to be, relax. <a href="/wiki/User:Kingsif" title="User:Kingsif">Kingsif</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kingsif" title="User talk:Kingsif">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Kingsif-20230425035000-Sol505000-20230425010200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kingsif-20230425035000-Sol505000-20230425010200"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kingsif-20230425035000-Sol505000-20230425010200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230425101400-Kingsif-20230425035000"></span>Names of people consitute about a half of transcriptions on Wikipedia with the other half being proper nouns (or let's just say it's about 40%-40%, there's also movie and song titles etc.), so I have not jumped to the extreme. Giving a special treatment to slightly less than a half of our transcriptions makes the guide useless and if you can't see that then I can't help you. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230425101400-Kingsif-20230425035000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230425101400-Kingsif-20230425035000"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230425101400-Kingsif-20230425035000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kingsif-20230426144500-Sol505000-20230425101400"></span>You surely recognise that transcribing names - and that it's so common - is exclusively done to help readers when things are not said as expected. It's not special treatment to just not do that in a way you know is inaccurate, and if you can't see that, I can't help you. Like, if there is an article on the name Rojas (<a href="/wiki/Rojas_(surname)" class="mw-redirect" title="Rojas (surname)">Rojas (surname)</a> - oh there is) <i>that</i> is where the standard/expected pronunciation should be transcribed. It would help the encyclopedia to add IPA to that article. It helps readers to show them when there is an exception. The purpose of adding IPA transcriptions isn't decoration, but that's what you're treating it as (and decorations you want in a prescribed layout even if it gets in the way, to boot). <a href="/wiki/User:Kingsif" title="User:Kingsif">Kingsif</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kingsif" title="User talk:Kingsif">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Kingsif-20230426144500-Sol505000-20230425101400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kingsif-20230426144500-Sol505000-20230425101400"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kingsif-20230426144500-Sol505000-20230425101400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230428071300-Kingsif-20230426144500"></span>You are clearly challenging <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Pronunciation#Other_languages" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation#Other languages</a> here and it is on you to get the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSENSUS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONSENSUS">WP:CONSENSUS</a> for a special treatment for roughly half of our IPA transcriptions (also in other languages). I'm not interested in going around in circles with you.</dd> <dd>And to be honest I question your capabilities of transcribing words into IPA after <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bel%C3%A9n_Barenys&diff=1152108335&oldid=1152097015">this</a>. These are rookie mistakes (yes, in Catalan, but it doesn't matter). You used the labiodental nasal symbol instead of the bilabial one and you didn't mark stress in the surname. Also, crucially, you didn't mark devoicing in the surname and terminal devoicing is one of the most salient features of Catalan when compared with other Romance languages (especially the major ones). I'd say it's on pair with vowel reduction in that regard. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230428071300-Kingsif-20230426144500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:13, 28 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230428071300-Kingsif-20230426144500"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230428071300-Kingsif-20230426144500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kingsif-20230428205900-Sol505000-20230428071300"></span>As I've said before, that MOS guide doesn't mention proper names. These are different to standard words, so the absence means there is no guidance, not that we should treat names as standard words. I have referred you to the MOS on foreign names already, which deals somewhat with them and does say in some circumstances <i>only</i> "local" should be used. You refuse to acknowledge this.</dd> <dd>As for <a href="/wiki/Bel%C3%A9n_Barenys" title="Belén Barenys">Belén Barenys</a>, I'm happy to discuss that transcription outside of edit summaries - perhaps at the article talk page or I'll put something here - if you're actually interested in doing so and don't just want to knock me down. As I have said at <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000#Your_harassment" title="User talk:Sol505000">your talk page</a> (for anyone else reading this to see context), I don't know how you found that unless you indeed are stalking me, looking for mistakes to try and undermine or bully me. I don't like that. You clearly think yourself something of an expert, but I don't think you know Catalan any more than a book tells you what to expect. As I said already, there isn't a stressed syllable in the surname; there isn't. And devoicing is not so present, and both come down to the location of the 'ny' (ñ) sound. It either ends a word (e.g. <i>any</i>, which has devoicing intact) or needs a 'solid' sound to follow it (typically a whole 'a'); the <i>s</i> here is unusual and becomes voiced. <a href="/wiki/User:Kingsif" title="User:Kingsif">Kingsif</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kingsif" title="User talk:Kingsif">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Kingsif-20230428205900-Sol505000-20230428071300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:59, 28 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kingsif-20230428205900-Sol505000-20230428071300"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kingsif-20230428205900-Sol505000-20230428071300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20230428072100-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s"></span>I would like a second opinion here if that isn't too much to ask. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Sol505000-20230428072100-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:21, 28 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20230428072100-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20230428072100-"In_transcriptions_linked_to_this_key,_however,_it_is_always_represented_by_⟨s"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kingsif-20230428210100-Sol505000-20230428072100"></span>It's 3O. I would also like other voices, preferably multiple, but preferably not here; again, I believe you refused to discuss until I came here because you think this is a forum where people will blindly support you. I would love to be proven wrong on that. <a href="/wiki/User:Kingsif" title="User:Kingsif">Kingsif</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kingsif" title="User talk:Kingsif">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Kingsif-20230428210100-Sol505000-20230428072100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:01, 28 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kingsif-20230428210100-Sol505000-20230428072100"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kingsif-20230428210100-Sol505000-20230428072100"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="/s/" data-mw-thread-id="h-/s/-20230612074300"><span id=".2Fs.2F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-/s/-20230612074300"></span>/s/<span data-mw-comment-end="h-/s/-20230612074300"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-186.50.216.68-20230612074300-/s/"></span>I'd just edited the Las Meninas page and saw that people keep referring to this article to argue that [z] is not a thing in Spanish. Of course, I understand it's not a phoneme, and so do the guys who took it out of this key to avoid confusion, but it gets a bit dogmatic when people remove it on principle when it's a pretty clear allophone of /s/ before voiced consonants, as even a brief look at the Spanish Phonology page shows. This might be more of a problem when editors want to have less transcriptions, which I understand, and then local pronunciations really get messy, but Las Meninas is a Spanish painting, and Spain widely features this voicing of the /s/ as does Mexico, so it's not exactly inaccurate to at least include it on pages pertaining to places that feature the [z]. But alas, the people shall decide ws <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/186.50.216.68" title="Special:Contributions/186.50.216.68">186.50.216.68</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:186.50.216.68&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:186.50.216.68 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-186.50.216.68-20230612074300-/s/" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-186.50.216.68-20230612074300-/s/"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-186.50.216.68-20230612074300-/s/"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-186.50.216.68-20230612074700-186.50.216.68-20230612074300"></span>apologies, upon closer inspection, I saw a note that says that all fricatives subject to this voicing are variable, but I'm afraid this isn't sourced in the article itself, and so I'm still at a loss <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/186.50.216.68" title="Special:Contributions/186.50.216.68">186.50.216.68</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:186.50.216.68&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:186.50.216.68 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-186.50.216.68-20230612074700-186.50.216.68-20230612074300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-186.50.216.68-20230612074700-186.50.216.68-20230612074300"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-186.50.216.68-20230612074700-186.50.216.68-20230612074300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230612075600-186.50.216.68-20230612074700"></span>Cited. She cites <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.lingref.com/cpp/larp/5/paper2631.pdf">Schmidt & Willis (2011)</a> and Campos-Astorkiza (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1075/cilt.333.04cam">2014</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1075/ihll.4.07cam">2015</a>). <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230612075600-186.50.216.68-20230612074700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:56, 12 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230612075600-186.50.216.68-20230612074700"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230612075600-186.50.216.68-20230612074700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-167.61.37.88-20230612203800-Nardog-20230612075600"></span>that'll do, thank you <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/167.61.37.88" title="Special:Contributions/167.61.37.88">167.61.37.88</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:167.61.37.88" title="User talk:167.61.37.88">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-167.61.37.88-20230612203800-Nardog-20230612075600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:38, 12 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-167.61.37.88-20230612203800-Nardog-20230612075600"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-167.61.37.88-20230612203800-Nardog-20230612075600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="v_or_b" data-mw-thread-id="h-v_or_b-20230715004100"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-v_or_b-20230715004100"></span>v or b<span data-mw-comment-end="h-v_or_b-20230715004100"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-4.19.72.62-20230715004100-v_or_b"></span>b[2] bestia, embuste, vaca, envidia with an English approximation of "about"... Really?? this is clearly wrong, vaca and envidia use a "v" sound not a "b" sound. Vaca is a "v" sound as in volatile which is the same sound in English and in Spanish. Vaca is not the same as Baca...That is just ridiculous I don't care what the reference. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/4.19.72.62" title="Special:Contributions/4.19.72.62">4.19.72.62</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:4.19.72.62&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:4.19.72.62 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-4.19.72.62-20230715004100-v_or_b" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:41, 15 July 2023 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-4.19.72.62-20230715004100-v_or_b"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-4.19.72.62-20230715004100-v_or_b"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230715034200-4.19.72.62-20230715004100"></span>Where are you from? As reported and summarized by <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://engage.ucr.edu/sites/default/files/2019-01/uge_journal_vol_xi.pdf#page=8">Exford (2018)</a>, labiodental pronunciation of orthographic <span class="nowrap">⟨v⟩</span> has been reported in the US, northern Mexico, and Puerto Rico, either through retention of the /b/–/v/ contrast, <a href="/wiki/Language_contact" title="Language contact">language contact</a>, or <a href="/wiki/Hypercorrection" title="Hypercorrection">hypercorrection</a>, but it's definitely a minority and not prescribed by the likes of RAE. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5#c-Nardog-20230715034200-4.19.72.62-20230715004100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:42, 15 July 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230715034200-4.19.72.62-20230715004100"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230715034200-4.19.72.62-20230715004100"></span></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5&oldid=1236612364">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:IPA/Spanish/Archive_5&oldid=1236612364</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 25 July 2024, at 16:53<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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