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vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Historical_Spoken_Chinese"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Historical Spoken Chinese</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Historical_Spoken_Chinese-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Classification" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Classification"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Classification</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Classification-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Taiwanese_and_Shanghainese" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Taiwanese_and_Shanghainese"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Taiwanese and Shanghainese</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Taiwanese_and_Shanghainese-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Dungan" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Dungan"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Dungan</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Dungan-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Revert" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Revert"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Revert</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Revert-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Rename" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Rename"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>Rename</span> </div> </a> <span 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If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Languages</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Languages</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">language articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Hyphenation_and_Capitalization" data-mw-thread-id="h-Hyphenation_and_Capitalization-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Hyphenation_and_Capitalization-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z"></span>Hyphenation and Capitalization<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Hyphenation_and_Capitalization-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Hyphenation and Capitalization"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Taoster-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z-Hyphenation_and_Capitalization"></span>Before anyone wonders about the difference between "Danzhou" and "Min-dong" and "Pu-Xian", let me try to explain the reason behind my choice: </p> <ul><li>Danzhou is a place. The name is one word. Same goes for "Hakka", "Pinghua", "Putonghua", etc.</li> <li>Min-dong is two words, so there's a hyphen. "-dong", or "east", is not capitalized, because it is not a place. Same goes for "Min-nan", etc.</li> <li>Pu-Xian is two words, and really means Putian + Xianyou, two different places. So both words are capitalized. Same goes for "Shao-Jiang" and "Qiong-Wen".</li></ul> <p>-- <a href="/wiki/User:Ran" title="User:Ran">ran</a> 13:35, May 22, 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Pinyin does not use hyphens to separate syllables (joint or otherwise). --<a href="/wiki/User:Taoster" title="User:Taoster">Taoster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Taoster-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z-Hyphenation_and_Capitalization" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:49, 22 May 2004 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Taoster-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z-Hyphenation_and_Capitalization"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Taoster-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z-Hyphenation_and_Capitalization"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Taoster-2004-05-26T04:20:00.000Z-Taoster-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z"></span>Which is true. What would you suggest then? -- <a href="/wiki/User:Ran" title="User:Ran">ran</a> 13:49, May 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Separate the phonemes with a non-breaking space. The hyphen adds ambiguity as to whether the name is purely Pinyin, a combination of English and Pinyin, or Wade-Giles. --<a href="/wiki/User:Taoster" title="User:Taoster">Taoster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Taoster-2004-05-26T04:20:00.000Z-Taoster-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:20, 26 May 2004 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Taoster-2004-05-26T04:20:00.000Z-Taoster-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Taoster-2004-05-26T04:20:00.000Z-Taoster-2004-05-22T19:49:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Historical_Spoken_Chinese" data-mw-thread-id="h-Historical_Spoken_Chinese-2004-05-23T04:06:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Historical_Spoken_Chinese-2004-05-23T04:06:00.000Z"></span>Historical Spoken Chinese<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Historical_Spoken_Chinese-2004-05-23T04:06:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Historical Spoken Chinese"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2004-05-23T04:06:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"></span>I changed "Historical spoken Chinese" to "Historical Chinese." Speaking of Middle Chinese, we usually make study on its phonology. But the Middle Chinese sounds are, more or less, artificially constructed ones to "read" rather than to "speak." --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Nanshu-2004-05-23T04:06:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:06, 23 May 2004 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2004-05-23T04:06:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2004-05-23T04:06:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dylanwhs-2004-05-23T18:42:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"></span>Then how would you separate the concept of, say, "wenyan" and "Ancient Chinese"? -- <a href="/wiki/User:Ran" title="User:Ran">ran</a> 13:49, May 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>With respect to <b>Historical Chinese</b>, the nomenclature on these various phases is somewhat confused, depending on where you look. For instance, <a href="/wiki/Middle_Chinese" title="Middle Chinese">Middle Chinese</a> was called Ancient Chinese (c.f. Karlgren). I started a page a while ago on <a href="/wiki/Old_Chinese" title="Old Chinese">Old Chinese</a>, and this ought to replace "Ancient Chinese", otherwise things could get confusing. In that page, is another stub page on <a href="/wiki/Historical_Chinese_Phonology" class="mw-redirect" title="Historical Chinese Phonology">Historical Chinese Phonology</a>. Perhaps that should replace Historical Spoken Chinese, since it isn't a term found in much of the literature I've read.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Dylanwhs" title="User:Dylanwhs">Dylanwhs</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Dylanwhs-2004-05-23T18:42:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:42, 23 May 2004 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dylanwhs-2004-05-23T18:42:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dylanwhs-2004-05-23T18:42:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2004-05-26T02:39:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"></span>Done. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Ran" title="User:Ran">ran</a> 00:06, May 24, 2004 (UTC) </p><p>I'm talking about the header. It should cover all items in the cell, otherwise we need to rearrange them. Now, will <a href="/wiki/Proto-Min" title="Proto-Min">Proto-Min</a> and <a href="/wiki/Proto-Mandarin" class="mw-redirect" title="Proto-Mandarin">Proto-Mandarin</a> be specific to phonology? I don't think so. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Nanshu-2004-05-26T02:39:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:39, 26 May 2004 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2004-05-26T02:39:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2004-05-26T02:39:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dylanwhs-2004-05-26T20:24:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"></span>It is possible, because of the precedence in this chart concerning the Subdivisions of Min that other 'subdivisions' of other languages such as Mandarin, Yue, Hakka, etc will be listed, as places. It seems much more sensible to me that pages listing these sub-dialects of various languages should do this task instead. For example, Wu dialects (now <a href="/w/index.php?title=Wu_(linguistics)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Wu (linguistics) (page does not exist)">Wu (linguistics)</a> list different dialects on that page. <a href="/wiki/User:Dylanwhs" title="User:Dylanwhs">Dylanwhs</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Dylanwhs-2004-05-26T20:24:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:24, 26 May 2004 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dylanwhs-2004-05-26T20:24:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dylanwhs-2004-05-26T20:24:00.000Z-Historical_Spoken_Chinese"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Classification" data-mw-thread-id="h-Classification"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Classification"></span>Classification<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Classification"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Classification"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>Why list Subdivisions of Min here but not subdivisions of the other divisions? Why not break off all the subdivisions so this stays a manageable size? --<a href="/wiki/User:Jiang" title="User:Jiang">Jia</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jiang" title="User talk:Jiang"><b>ng</b></a> 21:36, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Because the subdivisions of Min really are that different. Ethnologue, for example, lists all the subdivisions of Min as "separate languages". -- <a href="/wiki/User:Ran" title="User:Ran">ran</a> 03:14, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Taiwanese_and_Shanghainese" data-mw-thread-id="h-Taiwanese_and_Shanghainese"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Taiwanese_and_Shanghainese"></span>Taiwanese and Shanghainese<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Taiwanese_and_Shanghainese"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Taiwanese and Shanghainese"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>About my last revert: </p><p>First thing: Taiwanese is a part of Min Nan. </p><p>Second thing: Please do not put any second-level divisions in there except for the divisions of Min. If we start dividing Mandarin, Wu, etc. and putting all of those in that box, then the box will quickly grow to infinite size. The only reason I split Min up (and not the others) is because Min Bei, Min Nan etc. are commonly listed as separately languages, such as by Ethnologue. </p><p>-- <a href="/wiki/User:Ran" title="User:Ran">ran</a> 15:05, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Dungan" data-mw-thread-id="h-Dungan"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Dungan"></span>Dungan<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Dungan"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Dungan"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>Regarding <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Chinese_language&oldid=15832814&diff=next">this edit</a>, is the Dungan language written in Cyrillic script an official writing standard.., and is it one of the spoken varieties? — <a href="/wiki/User:Instantnood" title="User:Instantnood">Insta</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Instantnood" title="User talk:Instantnood">ntnood</a> 10:35, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Revert" data-mw-thread-id="h-Revert"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Revert"></span>Revert<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Revert"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Revert"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>To 61.144.54.45: </p> <ol><li>The subcategories of Min are set out separately because Ethnologue treats them as separate languages.</li> <li>I've set out Hui, Jin, and Pinghua differently from Danzhouhua, etc., because while Hui, Jin, and Pinghua are generally recognized categories, Danzhouhua, etc. are more like individual dialects that haven't been studied sufficiently to be categorized.</li> <li>I've put "Standard Mandarin" before "Standard Cantonese" because Standard Mandarin is by far official in many more places and many more contexts than Standard Cantonese.</li> <li>I've put "Yue" instead of "Cantonese" because I feel that "Yue" is clearer. See also the discussion going on at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Cantonese_(linguistics)" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Cantonese (linguistics)">Talk:Cantonese (linguistics)</a>.</li></ol> <p>-- <a href="/wiki/User:Ran" title="User:Ran">ran</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ran" title="User talk:Ran">talk</a>) June 28, 2005 20:09 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Rename" data-mw-thread-id="h-Rename-2006-07-29T08:22:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Rename-2006-07-29T08:22:00.000Z"></span>Rename<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Rename-2006-07-29T08:22:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Rename"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-100110100-2006-07-29T08:22:00.000Z-Rename"></span>I propose a move to Languages in the Chinese language family, & to change the instances of dialect to language. This is because the dialects are not dialects but langauges,, its as simple as that. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:100110100" title="User:100110100">100110100</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-100110100-2006-07-29T08:22:00.000Z-Rename" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:22, 29 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-100110100-2006-07-29T08:22:00.000Z-Rename"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-100110100-2006-07-29T08:22:00.000Z-Rename"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Taishanese" data-mw-thread-id="h-Taishanese-2007-07-18T01:38:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Taishanese-2007-07-18T01:38:00.000Z"></span>Taishanese<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Taishanese-2007-07-18T01:38:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Taishanese"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Badagnani-2007-07-18T01:38:00.000Z-Taishanese"></span>Shouldn't Taishanese be included (since, for example, we have several divisions of Min)? And do people know what "first-level" means? Wouldn't "major" or "primary" be more clear? <a href="/wiki/User:Badagnani" title="User:Badagnani">Badagnani</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Badagnani-2007-07-18T01:38:00.000Z-Taishanese" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Badagnani-2007-07-18T01:38:00.000Z-Taishanese"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Badagnani-2007-07-18T01:38:00.000Z-Taishanese"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Second_Cantonese_link" data-mw-thread-id="h-Second_Cantonese_link-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Second_Cantonese_link-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z"></span>Second <a href="/wiki/Cantonese" title="Cantonese">Cantonese</a> link<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Second_Cantonese_link-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Second Cantonese link"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z-Second_Cantonese_link"></span>I've just removed this again, for the same reasons as before, but clearly the edit summary didn't adequately summarise the reasons so here they are. First the link is a duplicate of the link in the <b>Yue</b> section, so is not needed, though on its own that's a poor reason. </p><p>More importantly the reason why there's two links to one article is two articles were merged: after a long discussion archived <a href="/wiki/Talk:Cantonese/Archive_2" title="Talk:Cantonese/Archive 2">here</a> the article <a href="/wiki/Standard_Cantonese" class="mw-redirect" title="Standard Cantonese">Standard Cantonese</a> was merged into <a href="/wiki/Canton_dialect" class="mw-redirect" title="Canton dialect">Canton dialect</a>, before that was renamed <a href="/wiki/Cantonese" title="Cantonese">Cantonese</a>. The consensus was Cantonese is not a standard language in the formal sense, so a separate article was not needed. By the same reasoning is is not an Ausbausprache, so it made sense to remove the link from that section.--<small><a href="/wiki/User:JohnBlackburne" title="User:JohnBlackburne">JohnBlackburne</a></small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:JohnBlackburne" title="User talk:JohnBlackburne">words</a></sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;"><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne" title="Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne">deeds</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z-Second_Cantonese_link" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:07, 19 April 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z-Second_Cantonese_link"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z-Second_Cantonese_link"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Umofomia-2010-04-19T18:03:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z"></span>Thanks for enumerating your reasons here; it indeed wasn't clear from the summary of your original change that removed the link. While it's true that Cantonese isn't a standard language in the formal sense, it does occupy a status different from that of many other Chinese varieties. The archived discussion you linked to revolved around where to draw the line in the content of the merged article on the prestige/semi-standardized Cantonese dialect. However, nowhere in that discussion did anyone object to the description of this dialect as an Ausbausprache. A language does not have to be a formal standardized language to be an Ausbausprache, which is a term that's used to describe a language based on its social usage. In Hong Kong, Cantonese does serve as a <i>de facto</i> language of administration in government; it is the primary language of instruction; in addition, it enjoys a widely used and understood (despite the lack of formal standardization) written form — all elements that define an Ausbausprache. While its true that it may be redundant to list Cantonese again under the Ausbausprache section, you admit yourself that this alone is a poor reason to omit it. —<a href="/wiki/User:Umofomia" title="User:Umofomia">Umofomia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Umofomia" title="User talk:Umofomia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Umofomia-2010-04-19T18:03:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:03, 19 April 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Umofomia-2010-04-19T18:03:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Umofomia-2010-04-19T18:03:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T19:28:00.000Z-Umofomia-2010-04-19T18:03:00.000Z"></span>IMO it's a bit ambiguous whether Cantonese is a standard language or not. It's a borderline case. I don't have a problem with it being added to Mandarin, but I wonder about other lects. There's a movement to push Taiwanese as a standard/prestige lect, and then of course there's Dungan. If Cantonese, why not those as well? It's not like we'd be overwhelming the reader. <a href="/wiki/User:Kwamikagami" title="User:Kwamikagami">kwami</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kwamikagami" title="User talk:Kwamikagami">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T19:28:00.000Z-Umofomia-2010-04-19T18:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T19:28:00.000Z-Umofomia-2010-04-19T18:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T19:28:00.000Z-Umofomia-2010-04-19T18:03:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T20:30:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z"></span>well it's clear there's no consensus here, and as I'm not too concerned about it, and am not a linguist so am not qualified to say what's ausbau or not, I'm happy for someone else to make the call on this.--<small><a href="/wiki/User:JohnBlackburne" title="User:JohnBlackburne">JohnBlackburne</a></small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:JohnBlackburne" title="User talk:JohnBlackburne">words</a></sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;"><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne" title="Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne">deeds</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T20:30:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:30, 19 April 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T20:30:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T20:30:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T15:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T21:14:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T20:30:00.000Z"></span>It's a hard call to make, and it's not a matter of linguistics. It's politics and sociology. <a href="/wiki/User:Kwamikagami" title="User:Kwamikagami">kwami</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kwamikagami" title="User talk:Kwamikagami">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T21:14:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T20:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T21:14:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T20:30:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T21:14:00.000Z-JohnBlackburne-2010-04-19T20:30:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Umofomia-2010-04-21T08:12:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T21:14:00.000Z"></span>Who should make the call then? I'd prefer to list Cantonese (as it was before). BTW, to address your comment above, the case for listing other dialects as Ausbausprachen is much less clear. While Taiwanese may be a prestige dialect of Minnan, socially speaking it does not have the wide institutional recognition that Cantonese has; Dungan even less so. —<a href="/wiki/User:Umofomia" title="User:Umofomia">Umofomia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Umofomia" title="User talk:Umofomia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Umofomia-2010-04-21T08:12:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T21:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:12, 21 April 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Umofomia-2010-04-21T08:12:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T21:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Umofomia-2010-04-21T08:12:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2010-04-19T21:14:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-24T07:23:00.000Z-Umofomia-2010-04-21T08:12:00.000Z"></span>Cantonese isn't official either. Even in HK, it's only a <i>de facto</i> co-standard. And there's a strong push for Taiwanese to be made official. So it seems rather unfair to include Cantonese but not Taiwanese, and I've added both. <a href="/wiki/User:Kwamikagami" title="User:Kwamikagami">kwami</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kwamikagami" title="User talk:Kwamikagami">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-24T07:23:00.000Z-Umofomia-2010-04-21T08:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-24T07:23:00.000Z-Umofomia-2010-04-21T08:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kwamikagami-2010-04-24T07:23:00.000Z-Umofomia-2010-04-21T08:12:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Umofomia-2010-04-25T23:47:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2010-04-24T07:23:00.000Z"></span>I'm not saying Cantonese is official; it doesn't have to be official to be an Ausbausprache. I'm saying that it has the social and institutional recognition (and yes, I've already mentioned it's <i>de facto</i>) that make the case for it to be an Ausbausprache. The case for Taiwanese is not as strong, but I have no strong opposition to listing it either. —<a href="/wiki/User:Umofomia" title="User:Umofomia">Umofomia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Umofomia" title="User talk:Umofomia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Umofomia-2010-04-25T23:47:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2010-04-24T07:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Umofomia-2010-04-25T23:47:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2010-04-24T07:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Umofomia-2010-04-25T23:47:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2010-04-24T07:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Bopomofo" data-mw-thread-id="h-Bopomofo-2011-01-14T06:04:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Bopomofo-2011-01-14T06:04:00.000Z"></span>Bopomofo<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Bopomofo-2011-01-14T06:04:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Bopomofo"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Roadrunner-2011-01-14T06:04:00.000Z-Bopomofo"></span>Moved back to official. The bopomofo article is incorrect, and zhuyin fuhao is still officially used to teach Mandarin in Taiwan. </p><p>See <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://english.moe.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem=11752&ctNode=424&mp=1">http://english.moe.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem=11752&ctNode=424&mp=1</a> </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Roadrunner" title="User:Roadrunner">Roadrunner</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Roadrunner" title="User talk:Roadrunner">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Roadrunner-2011-01-14T06:04:00.000Z-Bopomofo" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Roadrunner-2011-01-14T06:04:00.000Z-Bopomofo"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Roadrunner-2011-01-14T06:04:00.000Z-Bopomofo"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Pinghua_and_Tuhua" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pinghua_and_Tuhua-20241114204400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pinghua_and_Tuhua-20241114204400"></span>Pinghua and Tuhua<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pinghua_and_Tuhua-20241114204400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Pinghua and Tuhua"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kanguole-20241114204400-Pinghua_and_Tuhua"></span>I have reverted the addition of nodes "Tuhua" and "Pinghua and Tuhua", as neither is a recognized group: </p> <ul><li>The zhwiki article <a href="https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9C%9F%E8%AF%9D" class="extiw" title="zh:土话">zh:土话</a> is essentially a dictionary entry for "Tuhua", explaining that the term is used for any rural variety of uncertain affinity.</li> <li>The second edition of the <i><a href="/wiki/Language_Atlas_of_China" title="Language Atlas of China">Language Atlas of China</a></i> has a map B1-22 entitled "Pinghua and Tuhua", but the notes to that map make no claim that they constitute a group. Indeed the author is doubtful about the unity of Pinghua, describing its use in the first edition as provisional. This map covers several varieties around the Hunan-Guangdong-Guangxi border area left out of the widely accepted groups. The notes survey 20 years of work on these varieties, some of which links some of them to Yue, Hakka, Gan or Xiang. The author explicitly declines to draw any conclusions about grouping.</li></ul> <p><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kanguole" title="User talk:Kanguole">Kanguole</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Chinese_language#c-Kanguole-20241114204400-Pinghua_and_Tuhua" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kanguole-20241114204400-Pinghua_and_Tuhua"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kanguole-20241114204400-Pinghua_and_Tuhua"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&oldid=1257422647">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Chinese_language&oldid=1257422647</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Template-Class_China-related_articles" title="Category:Template-Class China-related articles">Template-Class China-related articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-importance_China-related_articles" title="Category:NA-importance China-related articles">NA-importance China-related articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Template-Class_China-related_articles_of_NA-importance" title="Category:Template-Class China-related articles of NA-importance">Template-Class China-related articles of NA-importance</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_China_articles" title="Category:WikiProject China articles">WikiProject China articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Template-Class_language_articles" title="Category:Template-Class language articles">Template-Class language articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-importance_language_articles" title="Category:NA-importance language articles">NA-importance language articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Languages_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Languages articles">WikiProject Languages articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 14 November 2024, at 20:44<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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