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<!DOCTYPE html> <html lang="en" class=" story nytapp-vi-article " xmlns:og="http://opengraphprotocol.org/schema/"> <head> <meta charset="utf-8" /> <title data-rh="true">Jacques Audiard on ‘Emilia Pérez’ and Learning to Make a Musical - The New York Times</title> <meta data-rh="true" name="robots" content="noarchive, max-image-preview:large"/><meta data-rh="true" name="description" content="For the filmmaker Jacques Audiard, creating a movie musical meant learning the genre conventions from scratch."/><meta data-rh="true" property="twitter:url" content="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/15/movies/emilia-perez-jacques-audiard.html"/><meta data-rh="true" property="twitter:title" content="How a Director Who Dislikes Musicals Came to Make ‘Emilia Pérez’"/><meta data-rh="true" property="twitter:description" content="For the filmmaker Jacques Audiard, creating a movie musical meant learning the genre conventions from scratch."/><meta data-rh="true" property="twitter:image" 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When we have confirmed access, the full article content will load.</div></div><header class="css-11fsypc euiyums1"><div id="sponsor-wrapper" class="css-1hyfx7x"><div id="sponsor-slug" class="css-19vbshk"><p>Supported by</p></div><a href="#after-sponsor" class="css-777zgl">SKIP ADVERTISEMENT</a><div class="ad sponsor-wrapper css-rfqw0c" id="sponsor"></div><div id="after-sponsor"></div></div><div class="css-hme5ai euiyums0"></div><div class="css-1vkm6nb ehdk2mb0"><h1 id="link-5dfd4f1d" class="css-1uc375s e1h9rw200" data-testid="headline">How a Director Who Dislikes Musicals Came to Make ‘Emilia Pérez’</h1></div><p id="article-summary" class="css-79rysd e1wiw3jv0">For the filmmaker Jacques Audiard, creating a movie musical meant learning the genre conventions from scratch.</p><div class="css-10cldcv"><div role="toolbar" data-testid="share-tools" aria-label="Social Media Share buttons, Save button, and Comments Panel with current comment count" class="css-yomkvi"><div></div><div 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599px) and (min-device-pixel-ratio: 1),(max-width: 599px) and (min-resolution: 1dppx),(max-width: 599px) and (min-resolution: 96dpi)" srcSet="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/24/multimedia/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv-mobileMasterAt3x.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale&width=600"/><img alt="On the set of “Emilia Pérez,” Jacques Audiard, in a baseball cap and open-necked button-down shirt, is pictured behind filmmaking equipment. " class="css-rq4mmj" src="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/24/multimedia/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale" srcSet="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/24/multimedia/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp 600w,https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/24/multimedia/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv-jumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp 1024w,https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/24/multimedia/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv/24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-01-gtkv-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp 2048w" sizes="((min-width: 600px) and (max-width: 1004px)) 84vw, (min-width: 1005px) 60vw, 100vw" decoding="async" width="600" height="400"/></picture></div><figcaption data-testid="photoviewer-children-ImageCaption" class="css-ktho12 e3rygrp0"><span class="css-jevhma e13ogyst0">“It’s a little pretentious to say, but maybe I had the pretension to try to make a musical that I would like from my perspective as a viewer,” Jacques Audiard said.</span><span class="css-14fe1uy e1z0qqy90"><span class="css-1ly73wi e1tej78p0">Credit...</span><span><span aria-hidden="false">Shanna Besson/Page 114, Why Not Productions, Pathé Films and France 2 Cinéma</span></span></span></figcaption></figure></div><div class="css-103l8m3"><div class="css-1e2jphy epjyd6m1"><div class="css-233int epjyd6m0"><p class="css-4anu6l e1jsehar1"><span class="byline-prefix">By </span><span class="css-1baulvz last-byline" itemProp="name">Carlos Aguilar</span></p></div></div></div><div class="css-3xqm5e"><time dateTime="2024-11-15T05:03:46-05:00" class="css-8blifj e16638kd2"><span class="css-1sbuyqj e16638kd3">Nov. 15, 2024</span></time></div></header><section name="articleBody" class="meteredContent css-1r7ky0e"><div class="css-s99gbd StoryBodyCompanionColumn" data-testid="companionColumn-0"><div class="css-53u6y8"><p class="css-at9mc1 evys1bk0">The French filmmaker Jacques Audiard is known for hard-hitting crime dramas with incisive social commentary. He doesn’t often enjoy musicals and doesn’t speak Spanish. Yet his latest work, the offbeat <a class="css-yywogo" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3HupHq8-eE" title="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">“Emilia Pérez,”</a> which began streaming Wednesday on Netflix, is a Spanish-language musical set amid Mexico’s drug wars.</p><p class="css-at9mc1 evys1bk0">He lifted his protagonist from the pages of Boris Razon’s 2018 novel, “Écoute,” about our hyperconnected, perpetually online world. One chapter features a ruthless Mexican cartel boss seeking a gender transition who hires a lawyer to help with the logistics.</p><p class="css-at9mc1 evys1bk0">For the titular role, Audiard, 72, cast the Spanish actress <a class="css-yywogo" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/28/movies/karla-sofia-gascon-emilia-perez-oscar.html" title="">Karla Sofía Gascón</a> (a trans woman herself), and changed the attorney in the book from a man to a woman played by Zoe Saldaña. To write the movie’s many tracks, the director enlisted the singer Camille Dalmais and the composer Clément Ducol.</p></div><aside class="css-ew4tgv" aria-label="companion column"></aside></div><div data-testid="RelatedLinksBlock-1"><div data-testid="lazy-loader"></div></div><div class="css-s99gbd StoryBodyCompanionColumn" data-testid="companionColumn-1"><div class="css-53u6y8"><p class="css-at9mc1 evys1bk0">Shot almost entirely on soundstages in Paris, the film debuted in May at the Cannes Film Festival to mostly positive reactions that praised the film for its way of “testing the limits of character sympathy as well as shifting tones and moods,” as The Times’s chief critic, Manohla Dargis put it, though some reviewers expressed reservations about the portrayal of Emilia Pérez, herself. In the end, the film’s four stars — Gascón, Saldaña, Selena Gomez and Adriana Paz — shared the best actress award, while the film itself won the jury prize (essentially third place).</p></div><aside class="css-ew4tgv" aria-label="companion column"></aside></div><div data-testid="Dropzone-3"></div><div class="css-s99gbd StoryBodyCompanionColumn" data-testid="companionColumn-2"><div class="css-53u6y8"><p class="css-at9mc1 evys1bk0">Speaking through an interpreter during a recent video interview while in the United States, Audiard explained how he came to try his hand at musicals with this timely subject.</p><div class="css-1336jj"><div class="css-121kum4"><div class="css-171d1bw"></div><div class="css-asuuk5"><noscript><div class="css-7axq9l" data-testid="optimistic-truncator-noscript"><svg width="24" height="24" viewBox="0 0 24 24" aria-hidden="true" class="css-1b5b8u1"><path fill="currentColor" fill-rule="evenodd" d="M2.5 12a9.5 9.5 0 1 1 19 0 9.5 9.5 0 0 1-19 0Zm8.5 1.75v-7.5h2v7.5h-2Zm0 2v2h2v-2h-2Z" clip-rule="evenodd"></path></svg><div data-testid="optimistic-truncator-noscript-message" class="css-6yo1no"><p class="css-3kpklk">We are having trouble retrieving the article content.</p><p class="css-3kpklk">Please enable JavaScript in your browser settings.</p></div></div></noscript><div class="css-1dv1kvn" id="optimistic-truncator-a11y" tabindex="-1"><hr/><p>Thank you for your patience while we verify access. 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What struck me was this person, representative of pure violence, of machismo, of the most absolute patriarchy, having a desire for femininity. It was that paradox that drew me. What interested me also is the endemic violence that Mexico deals with and the tremendous amount of people who have disappeared."}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"Dropzone","adsDesktop":false,"adsDesktopHoldout":false,"adsHybrid":false,"adsMobile":true,"adsMobileHoldout":false,"bad":false,"index":7},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"BoldFormat","type":null}],"text":"Why did you decide to make it a musical as opposed to a drama?"}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"If we had had this conversation three or four months ago, I would’ve said that it just landed on me. But actually, that’s wrong. I think the musical has been chasing me for a long time. 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Now, I’m not an assiduous spectator. Sometimes I’m quite bored. But I have a deep curiosity for this total spectacle. Maybe my desire to do an opera came from my own feeling as a spectator that what’s missing is contemporary opera."}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"Dropzone","adsDesktop":false,"adsDesktopHoldout":false,"adsHybrid":false,"adsMobile":true,"adsMobileHoldout":false,"bad":false,"index":11},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"BoldFormat","type":null}],"text":"Were you hesitant about approaching the visual language of musicals?"}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"I didn’t have any hesitation. I wasn’t hampered by an excessive love for the musical genre. I don’t actually like that many musicals. It’s a little pretentious to say, but maybe I had the pretension to try to make a musical that I would like from my perspective as a viewer."}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"Dropzone","adsDesktop":false,"adsDesktopHoldout":false,"adsHybrid":false,"adsMobile":false,"adsMobileHoldout":false,"bad":false,"index":12},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"BoldFormat","type":null}],"text":"Are there any examples of movie musicals you feel work to your liking?"}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"I have a great passion for Bob Fosse’s “Cabaret”: it’s a great musical. I also really liked “The Umbrellas of Cherbourg,” and I like “Hair.” All these films that I’m mentioning have both a political and a historical background, and maybe that’s why I made “Emilia Pérez.”"}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"Dropzone","adsDesktop":false,"adsDesktopHoldout":false,"adsHybrid":false,"adsMobile":false,"adsMobileHoldout":false,"bad":true,"index":13},{"__typename":"ImageBlock","media":{"__typename":"Image","altText":"Audiard, in a green button-down shirt, stands at a table where cast members, including Gascón, are sitting. Milk, orange juice and fruit sit on the table. Crew members with equipment are in the background.","caption":{"__typename":"TextOnlyDocumentBlock","content":[{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"Audiard working with Gascón on set. With no background in musicals, he and his collaborators “had to learn together in a very empirical manner.”"}]}],"text":"Audiard working with Gascón on set. With no background in musicals, he and his collaborators “had to learn together in a very empirical manner.”"},"credit":"Page 114\u002FWhy Not Productions, Pathé Films and France 2 Cinéma","crops":[{"__typename":"ImageCrop","renditions":[{"__typename":"ImageRendition","height":400,"name":"articleLarge","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fstatic01.nyt.com\u002Fimages\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F24\u002Fmultimedia\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv-articleLarge.jpg","width":600},{"__typename":"ImageRendition","height":433,"name":"popup","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fstatic01.nyt.com\u002Fimages\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F24\u002Fmultimedia\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv-popup.jpg","width":650},{"__typename":"ImageRendition","height":683,"name":"jumbo","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fstatic01.nyt.com\u002Fimages\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F24\u002Fmultimedia\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv-jumbo.jpg","width":1024},{"__typename":"ImageRendition","height":1365,"name":"superJumbo","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fstatic01.nyt.com\u002Fimages\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F24\u002Fmultimedia\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv-superJumbo.jpg","width":2048}]},{"__typename":"ImageCrop","renditions":[{"__typename":"ImageRendition","height":150,"name":"thumbLarge","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fstatic01.nyt.com\u002Fimages\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F24\u002Fmultimedia\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv-thumbLarge.jpg","width":150}]},{"__typename":"ImageCrop","renditions":[{"__typename":"ImageRendition","height":127,"name":"articleInline","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fstatic01.nyt.com\u002Fimages\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F24\u002Fmultimedia\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv-articleInline.jpg","width":190}]},{"__typename":"ImageCrop","renditions":[{"__typename":"ImageRendition","height":1200,"name":"mobileMasterAt3x","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fstatic01.nyt.com\u002Fimages\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F24\u002Fmultimedia\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv-mobileMasterAt3x.jpg","width":1800}]}],"id":"SW1hZ2U6bnl0Oi8vaW1hZ2UvNzRlZDkxYzctM2I1Ny01YWU4LTliOTQtYmY5OTdiZjY5ZWQ2","imageType":"photo","legacyHtmlCaption":"Audiard working with Gascón on set. With no background in musicals, he and his collaborators “had to learn together in a very empirical manner.”","timesTags":[],"uri":"nyt:\u002F\u002Fimage\u002F74ed91c7-3b57-5ae8-9b94-bf997bf69ed6","url":"\u002Fimagepages\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F15\u002Fmultimedia\u002F24EMILIA-DIRECTOR-03-gtkv.html"},"size":"MEDIUM"},{"__typename":"Dropzone","adsDesktop":true,"adsDesktopHoldout":true,"adsHybrid":false,"adsMobile":false,"adsMobileHoldout":true,"bad":true,"index":14},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"BoldFormat","type":null}],"text":"Did you first write the screenplay without the songs, only dialogue, and then the songs emerged?"}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"When the screenplay really started to exist as a screenplay, and not as a libretto anymore, we knew that some scenes would be sung or sung and danced. For instance, the opening, “El Alegato,” I knew in the writing that it would be sung. But then along the way, desires would come up for certain things to happen because the characters were changing as we went along. I became obsessed with the idea that there should be a sung duet between Emilia and Jessi [Emilia’s wife, played by Gomez], which as if by chance, came along at the very end."}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"Dropzone","adsDesktop":false,"adsDesktopHoldout":false,"adsHybrid":true,"adsMobile":true,"adsMobileHoldout":false,"bad":false,"index":15},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"BoldFormat","type":null}],"text":"I’m interested in the writing process for the lyrics and the music."}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"In the United States you have a real culture of the musical. In France, it’s a different case. If one were to publish a history of the French musical, it would be a very slim volume. With the musicians, we really had to start from scratch. We had to learn together in a very empirical manner. They would write lyrics based on the dialogue. We’d listen to demos together. Many songs they wrote wound up in the garbage. We really had to learn by doing."}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"Dropzone","adsDesktop":false,"adsDesktopHoldout":false,"adsHybrid":false,"adsMobile":false,"adsMobileHoldout":false,"bad":false,"index":16},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"BoldFormat","type":null}],"text":"The Spanish spoken in the film sounds rather colloquial. How did you achieve that?"}],"textAlign":"LEFT"},{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"Camille worked with a great translator, Karla Aviles, who’s Mexican. But throughout the shoot we had problems, for instance, with Selena’s accent in Spanish. She is Texan. Karla Sofía Gascón speaks Castilian Spanish. She’s from Madrid. Given that I don’t speak Spanish, the nuances of the Mexican accent versus the Castilian were lost on me. We had all these problems with accents, but we fixed them in the edit. We did a lot of dubbing."}],"textAlign":"LEFT"}]},"storyFormat":"Q&A Interview","storylines":[{"__typename":"AssociatedStoryline","ruleName":"styln-music","storyline":{"__typename":"Storyline","context":null,"displayName":"Music Guide","experimentalJsonBlob":"{\"data\":[{\"version\":1,\"type\":\"experimentalJsonBlob\",\"data\":[{\"version\":1,\"type\":\"guide\",\"data\":{\"title\":\"Find the Right Soundtrack for You\",\"leadIn\":\"Trying to expand your musical horizons? 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Next month, he’ll stand onstage again.\"]}]}]}}]}]}","guide":{"__typename":"StorylineGuide","displayName":"Find the Right Soundtrack for You","leadIn":"Trying to expand your musical horizons? Take a listen to something new.","sections":[{"__typename":"StorylineGuideSection","items":[{"__typename":"StorylineGuideItem","content":{"__typename":"ListBlock","content":[{"__typename":"ListItemBlock","content":[{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"Read our review of Kendrick Lamar’s surprise album, "},{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"LinkFormat","uri":"nyt:\u002F\u002Farticle\u002Ff32906b2-8145-5b3d-8a7e-792fa5298b1f","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.nytimes.com\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F25\u002Farts\u002Fmusic\u002Fkendrick-lamar-gnx-review.html"}],"text":"“GNX.”"}]}]},{"__typename":"ListItemBlock","content":[{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"LinkFormat","uri":"nyt:\u002F\u002Farticle\u002F6184a041-693f-50cb-bcfd-c584e3973ff2","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.nytimes.com\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F27\u002Farts\u002Fmusic\u002Flauren-mayberry-vicious-creature.html"}],"text":"Lauren Mayberry"},{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":" of Chvrches is making a statement on her own."}]}]},{"__typename":"ListItemBlock","content":[{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"Catch up on the year’s most notable new songs with "},{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"LinkFormat","uri":"nyt:\u002F\u002Flegacycollection\u002F8fe2aa5d-d0de-59fe-bb47-2a0dc1ab62fe","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.nytimes.com\u002Fcolumn\u002Fplaylist"}],"text":"the Playlist"},{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"."}]}]},{"__typename":"ListItemBlock","content":[{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"Behind the scenes as "},{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"LinkFormat","uri":"nyt:\u002F\u002Farticle\u002Ff1315179-23d2-59ac-9249-cea65649db72","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.nytimes.com\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F26\u002Farts\u002Fmusic\u002Ftv-on-the-radio-live-shows.html"}],"text":"TV on the Radio"},{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":", Brooklyn rock vets, return to the stage."}]}]},{"__typename":"ListItemBlock","content":[{"__typename":"ParagraphBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":"A stroke paralyzed "},{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[{"__typename":"LinkFormat","uri":"nyt:\u002F\u002Farticle\u002Facfdb50c-3b25-51b1-b89a-4a317207439d","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.nytimes.com\u002F2024\u002F11\u002F22\u002Farts\u002Fmusic\u002Fjesse-malin-stroke-concert.html"}],"text":"Jesse Malin"},{"__typename":"TextInline","formats":[],"text":". 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