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It’s Tuning Out."</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-"The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It’s_Tuning_Out."-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Important_to_remember" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Important_to_remember"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Important to remember</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Important_to_remember-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Just finished a board meeting about 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#b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align: center;"><i>Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting <b>~~~~</b> at the end.</i><br/> <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&action=edit&section=new">Start a new talk topic.</a></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="box-Notice plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/40px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/80px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align: left;"><div class="center" style="width:auto; margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto;"><b>Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an <a href="/wiki/Open_door_policy_(business)" title="Open door policy (business)">open door policy</a>.</b><br/> <b>He holds the founder's seat on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikimedia_Foundation" title="Wikipedia:Wikimedia Foundation">Wikimedia Foundation</a>'s <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikimediafoundation.org/role/board/">Board of Trustees</a>.<br/>The current <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_of_Trustees#Current_members" class="extiw" title="m:Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees">trustees</a> occupying "community-selected" seats are <a href="/wiki/User:Rosiestep" title="User:Rosiestep">Rosiestep</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Laurentius" title="User:Laurentius">Laurentius</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Victoria" title="User:Victoria">Victoria</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:Pundit" title="User:Pundit">Pundit</a>.<br/>The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is <a href="/wiki/User:JEissfeldt_(WMF)" title="User:JEissfeldt (WMF)">Jan Eissfeldt</a>.</b></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="box-Notice plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/40px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/80px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align: left;"><div class="center" style="width:auto; margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto;"><b>This page is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Semi-protected" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Semi-protected">semi-protected</a> and you will not be able to leave a message here unless you are a registered editor. Instead, <br/> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Unprotected" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Unprotected">you can leave a message here</a> </b></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1230750088">.mw-parser-output .talkheader{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-body{display:flex}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is <a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a>'s <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a>, where you can send them messages and comments.</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales" title="Special:NewSection/User talk:Jimbo Wales">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? Welcome! <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Help:Introduction">Learn to edit</a>; <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Questions" title="Wikipedia:Questions">get help</a>.</li></ul> </div> <div class="talkheader-policies"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith" title="Wikipedia:Assume good faith">Assume good faith</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility" title="Wikipedia:Civility">Be polite</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">avoid personal attacks</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers" title="Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers">Be welcoming to newcomers</a></li> <li>Seek <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests">dispute resolution</a> if needed</li></ul> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_index" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive index">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:ClueBot_III/Master_Detailed_Indices/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:ClueBot III/Master Detailed Indices/User talk:Jimbo Wales">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_A" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive A">A</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_B" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive B">B</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_C" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive C">C</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_D" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive D">D</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_E" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive E">E</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_F" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive F">F</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_G" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive G">G</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_1" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_2" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_3" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_4" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_5" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_6" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_7" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_8" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_9" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_10" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_11" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_12" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_13" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_14" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_15" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_16" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_17" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_18" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_19" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_20" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_21" title="User 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Wales/Archive 31">31</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_32" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 32">32</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_33" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 33">33</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_34" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 34">34</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_35" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 35">35</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_36" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 36">36</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_37" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 37">37</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_38" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 38">38</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_39" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 39">39</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_40" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 40">40</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_41" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 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Wales/Archive 170">170</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_171" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 171">171</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_172" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 172">172</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_173" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 173">173</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_174" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 174">174</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_175" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 175">175</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_176" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 176">176</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_177" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 177">177</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_178" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 178">178</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_179" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 179">179</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_180" title="User 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title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 239">239</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_240" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 240">240</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_241" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 241">241</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_242" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 242">242</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_243" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 243">243</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_244" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 244">244</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_245" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 245">245</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_246" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 246">246</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_247" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 247">247</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_248" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 248">248</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_249" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 249">249</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_250" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 250">250</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_251" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 251">251</a><span style="position: relative; top: 2px; float: right; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 1em;"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1038841319">.mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}</style><span class="rt-commentedText tooltip tooltip-dotted" title="Discussions with timestamps are automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III after 10 days of inactivity when more than 3 threads are present.">Auto-archiving period</span>: <b>10 days</b> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archiving" title="Help:Archiving a talk page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/16px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/24px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/32px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></a></span></span></td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="User talk:Jimbo Wales/" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Obscured_jaguar.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Obscured_jaguar.jpg/120px-Obscured_jaguar.jpg" decoding="async" width="120" height="80" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Obscured_jaguar.jpg/180px-Obscured_jaguar.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Obscured_jaguar.jpg/240px-Obscured_jaguar.jpg 2x" data-file-width="2500" data-file-height="1662"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This user talk page might be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WATCH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WATCH">watched</a> by friendly <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_stalker" title="Wikipedia:Talk page stalker">talk page stalkers</a></b>, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Newspaper_Cover.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Media mention" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Newspaper_Cover.svg/40px-Newspaper_Cover.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Newspaper_Cover.svg/60px-Newspaper_Cover.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Newspaper_Cover.svg/80px-Newspaper_Cover.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214851843">.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{box-sizing:border-box;width:100%;padding:5px;border:none;font-size:95%}.mw-parser-output .hidden-title{font-weight:bold;line-height:1.6;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .hidden-content{text-align:left}@media all and (max-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{width:auto!important;clear:none!important;float:none!important}}</style><div class="hidden-begin mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style=""><div class="hidden-title skin-nightmode-reset-color" style="">This talkpage has been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_coverage" title="Wikipedia:Press coverage">mentioned by a media organization</a>:</div><div class="hidden-content mw-collapsible-content" style=""> <ul><li><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite class="citation news cs1">Matthew Gault (8 December 2021). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjbkvm/wikipedia-editors-very-mad-about-jimmy-waless-nft-of-a-wikipedia-edit">"Wikipedia Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Wikipedia Edit"</a>. <a href="/wiki/Vice_Media" title="Vice Media">Vice Media</a>. <q>The trouble began when Wales posted an announcement about the auction on his user talk page—a kind of message board where users communicate directly with each other.</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Wikipedia+Editors+Very+Mad+About+Jimmy+Wales%E2%80%99+NFT+of+a+Wikipedia+Edit&rft.date=2021-12-08&rft.au=Matthew+Gault&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vice.com%2Fen%2Farticle%2Fqjbkvm%2Fwikipedia-editors-very-mad-about-jimmy-waless-nft-of-a-wikipedia-edit&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser+talk%3AJimbo+Wales" class="Z3988"></span></li></ul> </div></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <p> <style 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href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Centralized_discussion&action=edit">edit</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Centralized_discussion&action=history">history</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Centralized_discussion&action=watch">watch</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Archive" title="Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Archive">archive</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Centralized_discussion" title="Wikipedia talk:Centralized discussion">talk</a></li> <li><span class="noprint plainlinks purgelink"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&action=purge"><span title="Purge this page">purge</span></a></span></li></ul> </div> </div> </div> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ANI_v._WMF_time_frame" data-mw-thread-id="h-ANI_v._WMF_time_frame-20241025085100"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ANI_v._WMF_time_frame-20241025085100"></span>ANI v. WMF time frame<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ANI_v._WMF_time_frame-20241025085100"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Seraphimblade-20241025085100-ANI_v._WMF_time_frame"></span>I know this might have gotten lost in the shuffle, but I'm planning to start an RfC regarding the "office" action in that case. Do you know, or know who to ask, regarding how "temporary" the "temporary" takedown of the page is? I'm not asking for some exact date, but rather some estimate, or even just an order of magnitude (days|weeks|months|years). If we're talking "Wait a couple of weeks until the appeal is filed", that's a very different conversation than "We might, if we're lucky, have it back in five years." Do you know that, or know who to ask about that? <a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Seraphimblade" title="User talk:Seraphimblade">Talk to me</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Seraphimblade-20241025085100-ANI_v._WMF_time_frame" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Seraphimblade-20241025085100-ANI_v._WMF_time_frame"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Seraphimblade-20241025085100-ANI_v._WMF_time_frame"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241025122500-Seraphimblade-20241025085100"></span>I recommend against an RfC at this time, it seems unlikely to accomplish anything positive in any way. I would say that specific questions like that are not answerable at the present time for legal reasons. The best thing to do here is assume good faith that the legal team know what they are doing.--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241025122500-Seraphimblade-20241025085100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241025122500-Seraphimblade-20241025085100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241025122500-Seraphimblade-20241025085100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Seraphimblade-20241025123500-Jimbo_Wales-20241025122500"></span>Good faith can be assumed to a point. But at some point, "What exactly are you doing, why, and how long will it be?" needs to get an <i>answer</i>, not "Well, legal reasons...". <a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Seraphimblade" title="User talk:Seraphimblade">Talk to me</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Seraphimblade-20241025123500-Jimbo_Wales-20241025122500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Seraphimblade-20241025123500-Jimbo_Wales-20241025122500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Seraphimblade-20241025123500-Jimbo_Wales-20241025122500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241026124100-Seraphimblade-20241025123500"></span>We know that "technical issues" for the comparatively-simple matter of graphs meant "completely broken for 18 months". One can only imagine what "legal reasons" for a political court case in India means—perhaps a decade? <a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">~~ AirshipJungleman29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AirshipJungleman29" title="User talk:AirshipJungleman29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-AirshipJungleman29-20241026124100-Seraphimblade-20241025123500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:41, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241026124100-Seraphimblade-20241025123500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241026124100-Seraphimblade-20241025123500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241026130300-AirshipJungleman29-20241026124100"></span>Maybe even more <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2024/Oct/25/lessons-from-wikipedia">[1]</a>. <span style="font-family:'forte'"><a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> <b>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>)</b></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241026130300-AirshipJungleman29-20241026124100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241026130300-AirshipJungleman29-20241026124100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241026130300-AirshipJungleman29-20241026124100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241026065600-Seraphimblade-20241025085100"></span>I don't think an rfc would achieve anything as Office actions can't be overruled by any editor. <span style="font-family:'forte'"><a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> <b>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>)</b></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241026065600-Seraphimblade-20241025085100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241026065600-Seraphimblade-20241025085100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241026065600-Seraphimblade-20241025085100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Seraphimblade-20241026091300-Ratnahastin-20241026065600"></span>Overruled, not per se—but we can certainly object to them and register disapproval. <a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Seraphimblade" title="User talk:Seraphimblade">Talk to me</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Seraphimblade-20241026091300-Ratnahastin-20241026065600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Seraphimblade-20241026091300-Ratnahastin-20241026065600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Seraphimblade-20241026091300-Ratnahastin-20241026065600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241026113600-Seraphimblade-20241026091300"></span>Yes that is a good idea and I certainly won't object to it. Maybe we can create a new page like <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRAMBAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRAMBAN">WP:FRAMBAN</a> and seek the community's view. <span style="font-family:'forte'"><a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> <b>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>)</b></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241026113600-Seraphimblade-20241026091300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241026113600-Seraphimblade-20241026091300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241026113600-Seraphimblade-20241026091300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241028160700-Seraphimblade-20241025085100"></span>Comment</b> — <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a>:</span> <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">AirshipJungleman29</a>:</span> WMF has agreed to handover basic subscriber information of editors who edited <a href="/wiki/Asian_News_International" title="Asian News International">Asian News International</a> page to Indian court.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.barandbench.com/news/wikipedia-user-details-delhi-high-court-ani">[2]</a>. <span style="font-family:'forte'"><a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> <b>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>)</b></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241028160700-Seraphimblade-20241025085100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241028160700-Seraphimblade-20241025085100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241028160700-Seraphimblade-20241025085100"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241028161000-Ratnahastin-20241028160700"></span>Yes, see discussion at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VPWMF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VPWMF">WP:VPWMF</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">~~ AirshipJungleman29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AirshipJungleman29" title="User talk:AirshipJungleman29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-AirshipJungleman29-20241028161000-Ratnahastin-20241028160700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241028161000-Ratnahastin-20241028160700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241028161000-Ratnahastin-20241028160700"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Seraphimblade-20241028174300-AirshipJungleman29-20241028161000"></span>That, and it was under some type of "sealed cover" arrangement. I don't even pretend to know the first thing about the Indian judicial system, so I don't know what that means or how it would affect things. I will certainly say that the question of disclosing any information to an opposing party, or to any court which might disclose it to such a party, should be the reddest of red lines and the hardest of hard "No"s, even more so than the article takedown. If refusing to do that means "WMF will have to pull out of India and they'll block Wikipedia there", we absolutely should do that instead. <a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Seraphimblade" title="User talk:Seraphimblade">Talk to me</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Seraphimblade-20241028174300-AirshipJungleman29-20241028161000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Seraphimblade-20241028174300-AirshipJungleman29-20241028161000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Seraphimblade-20241028174300-AirshipJungleman29-20241028161000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-QuicoleJR-20241107203600-Seraphimblade-20241028174300"></span>There's a reason the open letter already has 50+ signatures. <a href="/wiki/User:QuicoleJR" title="User:QuicoleJR">QuicoleJR</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:QuicoleJR" title="User talk:QuicoleJR">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-QuicoleJR-20241107203600-Seraphimblade-20241028174300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-QuicoleJR-20241107203600-Seraphimblade-20241028174300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-QuicoleJR-20241107203600-Seraphimblade-20241028174300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Seraphimblade-20241108025400-QuicoleJR-20241107203600"></span>It's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2024_open_letter_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation" title="Wikipedia:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation">a lot more than that now</a>. Jimbo—this isn't flying. We're going to need a lot more information and a lot less stonewalling, at the very least. I hope you'll get that message to the right people. What's so godawfully important here that we should be caving like this, when we never have before? <a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Seraphimblade" title="User talk:Seraphimblade">Talk to me</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Seraphimblade-20241108025400-QuicoleJR-20241107203600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Seraphimblade-20241108025400-QuicoleJR-20241107203600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Seraphimblade-20241108025400-QuicoleJR-20241107203600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241108131200-Seraphimblade-20241108025400"></span>WP:AGF</a>. Note that you are jumping to conclusions and you're wrong.--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241108131200-Seraphimblade-20241108025400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241108131200-Seraphimblade-20241108025400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241108131200-Seraphimblade-20241108025400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-HJ_Mitchell-20241108163200-Jimbo_Wales-20241108131200"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a> could we take the tone down just a notch please? I completely understand everyone's anxiety over this specific case <i>and</i> the precedent it sets. I genuinely believe the WMF are fighting this tooth and nail but they also want to fight the case on its merits and it's hard to that if you publicly state that you have no intention of obeying a court order. <a href="/wiki/User:HJ_Mitchell" title="User:HJ Mitchell"><b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b></a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:HJ_Mitchell" title="User talk:HJ Mitchell"><span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts?</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-HJ_Mitchell-20241108163200-Jimbo_Wales-20241108131200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-HJ_Mitchell-20241108163200-Jimbo_Wales-20241108131200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-HJ_Mitchell-20241108163200-Jimbo_Wales-20241108131200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Seraphimblade-20241108174500-HJ_Mitchell-20241108163200"></span>I wish I shared your optimism, and I hope that in the end, you are right and I am wrong. What we know so far is that the WMF will not draw a line at endangering or harming our content if India's courts tell them to, so that's not the "Absolutely not past here" red line. Will they draw that line at harming our editors, if the court tells them to? Apparently (at least if one believes what Valereee said about it, and I certainly have no reason to believe she is not being honest), what they told the editors in question wasn't very comforting, and they've not given us an answer to that at all. So—I really do wish I shared your optimism, but I'm afraid I don't, and if it comes up to the point of the WMF possibly being willing to endanger <i>real people</i>? Well, that's not a dispute over source reliability or the MOS, or even a dispute over banning someone from the project. That's actually doing real-world harm, and I think that needs condemnation in some pretty strong terms. <a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Seraphimblade" title="User talk:Seraphimblade">Talk to me</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Seraphimblade-20241108174500-HJ_Mitchell-20241108163200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Seraphimblade-20241108174500-HJ_Mitchell-20241108163200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Seraphimblade-20241108174500-HJ_Mitchell-20241108163200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-HJ_Mitchell-20241108195000-Seraphimblade-20241108174500"></span>Normally I'd be banging the drum right next to you but I don't think we've quite reached that point. Regardless of what will actually happen, the WMF cannot just announce that it won't comply with a court order. Or perhaps it could but that closes off every legal avenue in the original defamation case. We should also bear in mind that these internal discussions are still public and anyone can read them, including the court and the other party. Which (to me) explains why the WMF are so constrained in what they can say. <a href="/wiki/User:HJ_Mitchell" title="User:HJ Mitchell"><b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b></a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:HJ_Mitchell" title="User talk:HJ Mitchell"><span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts?</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-HJ_Mitchell-20241108195000-Seraphimblade-20241108174500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-HJ_Mitchell-20241108195000-Seraphimblade-20241108174500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-HJ_Mitchell-20241108195000-Seraphimblade-20241108174500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Seraphimblade-20241108025500-QuicoleJR-20241107203600"></span>Oh, and along with that. Who are these "fellow travelers", exactly, and why have none of them come <i>publicly</i> forward to support what you're doing? <a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Seraphimblade" title="User talk:Seraphimblade">Talk to me</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Seraphimblade-20241108025500-QuicoleJR-20241107203600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Seraphimblade-20241108025500-QuicoleJR-20241107203600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Seraphimblade-20241108025500-QuicoleJR-20241107203600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241109040600-QuicoleJR-20241107203600"></span>Almost 400 signatures now. <a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241109040600-QuicoleJR-20241107203600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:06, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241109040600-QuicoleJR-20241107203600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241109040600-QuicoleJR-20241107203600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-QuicoleJR-20241110165700-Ratnahastin-20241109040600"></span>It has passed 600 now. <a href="/wiki/User:QuicoleJR" title="User:QuicoleJR">QuicoleJR</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:QuicoleJR" title="User talk:QuicoleJR">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-QuicoleJR-20241110165700-Ratnahastin-20241109040600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:57, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-QuicoleJR-20241110165700-Ratnahastin-20241109040600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-QuicoleJR-20241110165700-Ratnahastin-20241109040600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tazerdadog-20241113102900-QuicoleJR-20241110165700"></span>It has passed 800 now. Is there any time frame for updates here? <a href="/wiki/User:Tazerdadog" title="User:Tazerdadog">Tazerdadog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tazerdadog" title="User talk:Tazerdadog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Tazerdadog-20241113102900-QuicoleJR-20241110165700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:29, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tazerdadog-20241113102900-QuicoleJR-20241110165700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tazerdadog-20241113102900-QuicoleJR-20241110165700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241114034800-Tazerdadog-20241113102900"></span>WMF has been ordered to reveal the subscriber details to court in sealed cover, a redacted copy of the affidavit will be given to ANI, ANI can also approach the judge to seek details of the editors if necessary. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://dhcappl.nic.in/dhcorderportal/GetOrder.do?ID=mmh/2024/1731416274543_2024.pdf">[3]</a> WMF is maintaining its intermediary status, thus all responsibility falls on the editors to prove the content is not defamatory(which will take years and losing means paying 2 crore in damages and taking down the article), in short the letter failed. - <a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241114034800-Tazerdadog-20241113102900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241114034800-Tazerdadog-20241113102900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241114034800-Tazerdadog-20241113102900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Seraphimblade-20241114045700-Ratnahastin-20241114034800"></span>"Has been ordered" doesn't necessarily mean "has". The idea is for them not to; if it goes to the court, they could reveal it to the other party (or the public, or anyone else) at any time, and no one could stop them. <a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade" title="User:Seraphimblade">Seraphimblade</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Seraphimblade" title="User talk:Seraphimblade">Talk to me</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Seraphimblade-20241114045700-Ratnahastin-20241114034800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Seraphimblade-20241114045700-Ratnahastin-20241114034800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Seraphimblade-20241114045700-Ratnahastin-20241114034800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Regarding_the_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation_legal_case" data-mw-thread-id="h-Regarding_the_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation_legal_case-20241107193000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Regarding_the_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation_legal_case-20241107193000"></span>Regarding the Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation legal case<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Regarding_the_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation_legal_case-20241107193000"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cullen328-20241107193000-Regarding_the_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation_legal_case"></span>Hello Jimbo, </p><p>You and your talk page watchers may be interested in this open letter: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2024_open_letter_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation" title="Wikipedia:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation">Wikipedia:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Cullen328" title="User:Cullen328">Cullen328</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cullen328" title="User talk:Cullen328">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Cullen328-20241107193000-Regarding_the_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation_legal_case" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cullen328-20241107193000-Regarding_the_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation_legal_case"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cullen328-20241107193000-Regarding_the_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation_legal_case"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241107205500-Cullen328-20241107193000"></span>Now also on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CENT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CENT">WP:CENT</a> and as a watchlist notice. <a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">~~ AirshipJungleman29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AirshipJungleman29" title="User talk:AirshipJungleman29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-AirshipJungleman29-20241107205500-Cullen328-20241107193000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241107205500-Cullen328-20241107193000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241107205500-Cullen328-20241107193000"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ipigott-20241110124000-AirshipJungleman29-20241107205500"></span>It is to be hoped that with almost 600 signatures, the letter will help the Wikimedia Foundation to protect the identities of contributors from the Delhi High Court at hearings on 11 November and thereafter.--<a href="/wiki/User:Ipigott" title="User:Ipigott">Ipigott</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ipigott" title="User talk:Ipigott">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ipigott-20241110124000-AirshipJungleman29-20241107205500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ipigott-20241110124000-AirshipJungleman29-20241107205500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ipigott-20241110124000-AirshipJungleman29-20241107205500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500-Ipigott-20241110124000"></span>Is there anything (<i>anything</i>) that you can give editors concurrently regarding the protection of the anonymity of Wikipedia users in relation to the trial? <a href="/wiki/User:Fantastic_Mr._Fox" title="User:Fantastic Mr. Fox">Fantastic Mr. Fox</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fantastic_Mr._Fox" title="User talk:Fantastic Mr. Fox">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500-Ipigott-20241110124000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500-Ipigott-20241110124000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500-Ipigott-20241110124000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241111080700-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500"></span>It's very difficult to say anything about an ongoing legal matter as this is a very public forum. All I can say right now, and this should be clear enough, is that you know my principles and ideals, and I am comfortable with the approach that the WMF legal team is taking at the present time.<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241111080700-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241111080700-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241111080700-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Espresso_Addict-20241111125700-Jimbo_Wales-20241111080700"></span>Thank you for responding, Jimbo. <a href="/wiki/User:Espresso_Addict" title="User:Espresso Addict">Espresso Addict</a> <small>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Espresso_Addict" title="User talk:Espresso Addict">talk</a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Espresso_Addict-20241111125700-Jimbo_Wales-20241111080700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Espresso_Addict-20241111125700-Jimbo_Wales-20241111080700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Espresso_Addict-20241111125700-Jimbo_Wales-20241111080700"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SchallundRauch-20241112005600-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500"></span>Regarding the protection of anonymity: <a href="/wiki/User:Valereee" title="User:Valereee">User:Valereee</a> seems to be in contact with one of the affected editors. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_response_to_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation" title="Wikipedia:Community response to Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation">Wikipedia:Community_response_to_Asian_News_International_vs._Wikimedia_Foundation</a> (Section "Contacted by one of the editors"). A fair bit of insight there. I also read a rather clear cut statement by one of the WMF accounts that the identity of the editors will not be disclosed but I can't find it anymore in all the chaos. --<a href="/wiki/User:SchallundRauch" title="User:SchallundRauch">SchallundRauch</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SchallundRauch" title="User talk:SchallundRauch">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-SchallundRauch-20241112005600-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SchallundRauch-20241112005600-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SchallundRauch-20241112005600-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20241110125500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241114162900-Cullen328-20241107193000"></span>Update: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:OPENLETTER2024#It's_time_to_take_a_community_read_on_the_prospect_of_protest_action" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:OPENLETTER2024">a proposal for a blackout or work stoppage</a>. <span style="color:gold;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241114162900-Cullen328-20241107193000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241114162900-Cullen328-20241107193000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241114162900-Cullen328-20241107193000"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ipigott-20241114164600-2601AC47-20241114162900"></span>While I don't think we yet need to undertake further action, we urgently need explanations on the significance of the "sealed cover" approach to revealing the names of the three targeted contributors to the Delhi High Court via their emails, etc. Will this protect them from wider revelation of their identities? What could be the worst case consequences?--<a href="/wiki/User:Ipigott" title="User:Ipigott">Ipigott</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ipigott" title="User talk:Ipigott">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ipigott-20241114164600-2601AC47-20241114162900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ipigott-20241114164600-2601AC47-20241114162900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ipigott-20241114164600-2601AC47-20241114162900"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241114170200-2601AC47-20241114162900"></span>Jimbo, you may feel that this is too public a forum to say anything. However, if you don't, there is quite the chance that the matter will become far more public than you like—the sort of public that comes with a daily audience of 360 million people. Beware of the monkey's paw! <a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">~~ AirshipJungleman29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AirshipJungleman29" title="User talk:AirshipJungleman29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-AirshipJungleman29-20241114170200-2601AC47-20241114162900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241114170200-2601AC47-20241114162900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241114170200-2601AC47-20241114162900"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241114173300-2601AC47-20241114162900"></span>And action: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VPR#RfC:_Should_a_blackout_be_organized_in_protest_of_the_Wikimedia_Foundation's_actions?" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VPR">WP:VPR#RfC: Should a blackout be organized in protest of the Wikimedia Foundation's actions?</a> [moved to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/2024_Wikipedia_blackout" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/2024 Wikipedia blackout">Wikipedia:Requests for comment/2024 Wikipedia blackout</a>] <span style="color:gold;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241114173300-2601AC47-20241114162900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241114173300-2601AC47-20241114162900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241114173300-2601AC47-20241114162900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241114181200-2601AC47-20241114173300"></span>So far, <s>18 20 26 36 47</s> 55+ yeses. <s>2 4 9 15 21</s> 30+ nos. <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241114181200-2601AC47-20241114173300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241114181200-2601AC47-20241114173300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241114181200-2601AC47-20241114173300"></span> <dl><dd><s><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241114234200-2601AC47-20241114181200"></span>62-54</s> More oppose and neutral than support right now. I abstained. I'll just add a reminder that <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:YOULOSE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:YOULOSE">Appeals here</a> may apply in this case. <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241114234200-2601AC47-20241114181200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241114234200-2601AC47-20241114181200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241114234200-2601AC47-20241114181200"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241114192300-2601AC47-20241114173300"></span>At this rate, this could be <i>the</i> most stagnantly significant controversy in WP history (and if enabled, lead to a site-wide blackout), certainly in the last 6 years (and I've seen everything). <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241114192300-2601AC47-20241114173300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241114192300-2601AC47-20241114173300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241114192300-2601AC47-20241114173300"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241114213200-2601AC47-20241114173300"></span>It might not even get any better... Unprecedented, unless Reddit counts. <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241114213200-2601AC47-20241114173300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241114213200-2601AC47-20241114173300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241114213200-2601AC47-20241114173300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241114221500-2601AC47-20241114213200"></span>Looks like <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/2024_Wikipedia_blackout#Note_from_Jimbo" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/2024 Wikipedia blackout">he responded</a> - Very basically, "premature" and "what's to protest?" <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241114221500-2601AC47-20241114213200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241114221500-2601AC47-20241114213200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241114221500-2601AC47-20241114213200"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Well_he_would,_wouldn%27t_he%3F" title="Well he would, wouldn't he?"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dilettante-20241114221900-2601AC47-20241114221500"></span>Well he would oppose this criticism of the board, wouldn't he?</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dilettante" title="User talk:Dilettante">Sincerely, Dilettante</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Dilettante-20241114221900-2601AC47-20241114221500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dilettante-20241114221900-2601AC47-20241114221500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dilettante-20241114221900-2601AC47-20241114221500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222400-Dilettante-20241114221900"></span>Perhaps you can explain what you mean by that. My opposition to the protest is that what is being protested hasn't happened and, being privy to the discussions behind the scene, I am being as clear as I can in terms of telling you, speaking only for myself, that in my view there's nothing to protest. To be clear, a protest like this is not going to help our case in court in any way, quite the contrary. And if it's meant to be a protest of the WMF doing something wrong, well, I'm just telling you, I'm not personally worried that the WMF is going to do anything wrong.<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222400-Dilettante-20241114221900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222400-Dilettante-20241114221900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222400-Dilettante-20241114221900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dilettante-20241114222700-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222400"></span>To be clear, I'm not saying you're objectively wrong to oppose this. I'm just saying that thus far you've defended the board's actions, and it's not a surprise you'll do so, especially given you're obviously involved with the WMF. I do respect your opinions and input in this matter; I mean this particular message is nothing unexpected.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dilettante" title="User talk:Dilettante">Sincerely, Dilettante</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Dilettante-20241114222700-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dilettante-20241114222700-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dilettante-20241114222700-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222900-Dilettante-20241114222700"></span>Quite to the contrary, if the WMF does something wrong, I'll be happy to join a protest. Protesting things that haven't happened and that I'm telling you I don't worry about happening, is not really a good use of anyone's time.--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222900-Dilettante-20241114222700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222900-Dilettante-20241114222700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222900-Dilettante-20241114222700"></span> <dl><dd><small><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dilettante-20241114230900-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222900"></span>I'm aware you're willing to disagree. I'm just saying no-one was expecting you to disagree with the WMF just yet.</small></dd> <dd>In what way does <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/2024_Wikipedia_blackout#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114230400-RfC:_Should_a_blackout_be_organized_in_protest_of_the_Wikimedia_Foundation's_act">this</a> not violate <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFCNEUTRAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFCNEUTRAL">WP:RFCNEUTRAL</a>? Anyone opening the page can read the table of contents, and the section "Note from Jimbo" is pretty prominent therein. Please remove the sentence <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">The tl;dr is I strongly recommend against this as being both counterprodutive and unnecessary</q>. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dilettante" title="User talk:Dilettante">Sincerely, Dilettante</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Dilettante-20241114230900-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dilettante-20241114230900-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dilettante-20241114230900-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114232000-Dilettante-20241114230900"></span>The tl;dr is a neutral summary of my position, and the information that I'm brinigng to the community here is crucial for people's opinion.--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114232000-Dilettante-20241114230900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114232000-Dilettante-20241114230900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114232000-Dilettante-20241114230900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zanahary-20241115012600-Jimbo_Wales-20241114232000"></span>Why is your position at the top of an RFC? <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span><a href="/wiki/User:Zanahary" title="User:Zanahary">Zanahary</a><span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Zanahary-20241115012600-Jimbo_Wales-20241114232000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zanahary-20241115012600-Jimbo_Wales-20241114232000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zanahary-20241115012600-Jimbo_Wales-20241114232000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115103800-Zanahary-20241115012600"></span>I think that's pretty obvious. I'm bringing information to the community that is highly relevant to the RfC, and giving advice from a privileged position as to the best course of action. Burying that in amongst all the other comments would be unwise, as it could easily lead to some of the many misconceptions of what is going on being the basis of people's !votes.--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115103800-Zanahary-20241115012600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:38, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115103800-Zanahary-20241115012600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115103800-Zanahary-20241115012600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Question" data-mw-thread-id="h-Question-20241114173800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Question-20241114173800"></span>Question<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Question-20241114173800"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cooldudeseven7-20241114173800-Question"></span>Hey, Just a friendly, curious question. I noticed you wrote something on <a href="/wiki/User:Wik" title="User:Wik">User:Wik</a>'s user page. Was Wik fictional? What happened to him? <i>Thank you for founding wikipedia!</i> <a href="/wiki/User:Cooldudeseven7" title="User:Cooldudeseven7"><span style="color:green">Cooldudeseven7</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cooldudeseven7" title="User talk:Cooldudeseven7"><sub>join in on the tea talk</sub></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Cooldudeseven7-20241114173800-Question" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cooldudeseven7-20241114173800-Question"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cooldudeseven7-20241114173800-Question"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222700-Cooldudeseven7-20241114173800"></span>I don't remember anything about that particular case at this point, but my broad advice stands - if someone wants to walk away with dignity, they should be allowed to do so, without further fight or quarrel.--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222700-Cooldudeseven7-20241114173800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222700-Cooldudeseven7-20241114173800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222700-Cooldudeseven7-20241114173800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cooldudeseven7-20241114232900-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222700"></span>Thanks for responding. <a href="/wiki/User:Cooldudeseven7" title="User:Cooldudeseven7"><span style="color:green">Cooldudeseven7</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cooldudeseven7" title="User talk:Cooldudeseven7"><sub>join in on the tea talk</sub></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Cooldudeseven7-20241114232900-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cooldudeseven7-20241114232900-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cooldudeseven7-20241114232900-Jimbo_Wales-20241114222700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It’s_Tuning_Out."" data-mw-thread-id="h-"The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It’s_Tuning_Out."-20241115114100"><span id=".22The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It.E2.80.99s_Tuning_Out..22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It’s_Tuning_Out."-20241115114100"></span>"The Resistance Is Not Coming to Save You. It’s Tuning Out."<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It’s_Tuning_Out."-20241115114100"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/15/trump-presidency-liberal-media-resistance-00189655"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241115114100-"The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It’s_Tuning_Out.""></span>link to article</a> An interesting look at a lack of one by Michael Schaffer of Politico. And in light of this stuff, might not be the least of our collective worries. <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241115114100-"The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It’s_Tuning_Out."" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241115114100-"The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It’s_Tuning_Out.""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241115114100-"The_Resistance_Is_Not_Coming_to_Save_You._It’s_Tuning_Out.""></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Important_to_remember" data-mw-thread-id="h-Important_to_remember-20241115154300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Important_to_remember-20241115154300"></span>Important to remember<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Important_to_remember-20241115154300"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Polygnotus-20241115154300-Important_to_remember"></span>...that sometimes the community <i>does</i> have valid complaints. Just not today. </p><p>Anyways, would it be a good idea to get rid of the list of roles mentioned on <a class="external text" href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Legal:Legal_Fees_Assistance_Program">Legal:Legal_Fees_Assistance_Program</a> on foundation.wikimedia? <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Polygnotus-20241115154300-Important_to_remember" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Polygnotus-20241115154300-Important_to_remember"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Polygnotus-20241115154300-Important_to_remember"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115174500-Polygnotus-20241115154300"></span>Yes, 100% definitely! The WMF isn't perfect, I'm not perfect, the board isn't perfect. Constructive work to improve things is always super welcome.</dd> <dd>I'm not sure what you mean about the list of roles, are you suggesting an edit to the page, or a change in policy? I just read it for the first time in a long time, and it seems right to me. For avoidance of doubt, the users in question in the ANI situation have qualified and the WMF is paying for their legal fees.--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115174500-Polygnotus-20241115154300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115174500-Polygnotus-20241115154300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115174500-Polygnotus-20241115154300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Polygnotus-20241116190300-Jimbo_Wales-20241115174500"></span>I think that the decision if the WMF will provide assistance has little to do with the roles (admin/arbcom/cu/whatever) a person has. Vandalfighters and others without advanced permissions can also easily end up in a situation where someone decides to sue. Listing those roles makes it seems as if only those people are eligible. "WMF decides" is already the policy, so I would propose editing the page (removing the list) to reflect that. It makes sense to assist a vandalfighter without advanced permissions who follows all the rules and posts the inconvenient truth based on reliable sources; and it also makes sense to not assist an admin who posts libel. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Polygnotus-20241116190300-Jimbo_Wales-20241115174500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Polygnotus-20241116190300-Jimbo_Wales-20241115174500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Polygnotus-20241116190300-Jimbo_Wales-20241115174500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robertsky-20241117013400-Polygnotus-20241116190300"></span>The page also says <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">In its sole discretion, WMF may determine that the Legal Fees Assistance Program may apply to users acting in an administrator, arbitrator, email response, or project governance function that is not among those specified in this document (listed above).</q> as well. I would classify that fighting vandalism is a project governance function since it is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RVAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RVAN">policy</a> here. <a href="/wiki/User:Robertsky" title="User:Robertsky">– robertsky</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robertsky" title="User talk:Robertsky">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Robertsky-20241117013400-Polygnotus-20241116190300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:34, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robertsky-20241117013400-Polygnotus-20241116190300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robertsky-20241117013400-Polygnotus-20241116190300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Polygnotus-20241117091300-Robertsky-20241117013400"></span>Exactly. I am not proposing a change in policy; only changing the text to better reflect the existing policy. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Polygnotus-20241117091300-Robertsky-20241117013400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:13, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Polygnotus-20241117091300-Robertsky-20241117013400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Polygnotus-20241117091300-Robertsky-20241117013400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case" data-mw-thread-id="h-Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case-20241115203400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case-20241115203400"></span>Just finished a board meeting about the ANI case<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case-20241115203400"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400-Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case"></span>I can't share anything other than my pride in the entire board and the staff. Seriously. You'd all be overjoyed if you could hear it. (As ever, I only speak for myself as a Wikipedian who is passionate about neutrality, truth, privacy, and individual (human) rights.) <a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400-Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:34, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400-Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400-Just_finished_a_board_meeting_about_the_ANI_case"></span> </p> <dl><dd><small><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241115204000-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400"></span>(if only they will; by they, I mean those wanting a blackout)</small> <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241115204000-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:40, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241115204000-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241115204000-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115204600-2601AC47-20241115204000"></span>? wut?--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115204600-2601AC47-20241115204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:46, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115204600-2601AC47-20241115204000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241115204600-2601AC47-20241115204000"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thebiguglyalien-20241116200700-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400"></span>This makes me want to believe; I don't think "you'd all be overjoyed" comes from nowhere. But paraphrasing <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1257495961" title="Special:Diff/1257495961">my earlier comment</a> about this response, the circumstances will compel the community to take drastic action. With the limited information the community has, it's a coin flip whether a "nightmare scenario" comes to pass—namely that PII is disclosed in any way, ANI is successful in getting content changed, or anything else that indicates to other organizations that suing editors can be effective. Until those 50/50 odds change, it's a choice between which is more dangerous: doing nothing as a nightmare scenario approaches or taking drastic action over a false alarm. Most will be more apprehensive of the former. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien"><span style="color:#324717">The</span><span style="color:#45631f">big</span><span style="color:#547826">ugly</span><span style="color:#68942f">alien</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien"><span style="color:sienna">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Thebiguglyalien-20241116200700-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:07, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thebiguglyalien-20241116200700-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thebiguglyalien-20241116200700-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Valereee-20241116205800-Thebiguglyalien-20241116200700"></span>Coin flip and 50/50 mean there's an equal chance, not that we don't know what the chances are. There may in reality be a 1% or even 0% chance of one of two outcomes. The fact we don't know doesn't make the chances equal. <a href="/wiki/User:Valereee" title="User:Valereee">Valereee</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Valereee" title="User talk:Valereee">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Valereee-20241116205800-Thebiguglyalien-20241116200700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Valereee-20241116205800-Thebiguglyalien-20241116200700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Valereee-20241116205800-Thebiguglyalien-20241116200700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800-Valereee-20241116205800"></span>My point is that we have imperfect information and <i>can't</i> know that "true" probability. Since the evidence for each option occurring is <i>roughly</i> equal, the community is going to go off of <a href="/wiki/Subjective_probability" class="mw-redirect" title="Subjective probability">subjective probability</a> and consider both of the options about equally likely. All of the discussion and frantic calls for action are a consequence of that. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien"><span style="color:#324717">The</span><span style="color:#45631f">big</span><span style="color:#547826">ugly</span><span style="color:#68942f">alien</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien"><span style="color:sienna">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800-Valereee-20241116205800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:38, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800-Valereee-20241116205800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800-Valereee-20241116205800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BilboBeggins-20241116233100-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800"></span>Let's make an estimate of this probability by making a poll where users say which scenario will happen, in their opinion. <a href="/wiki/User:BilboBeggins" title="User:BilboBeggins">BilboBeggins</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BilboBeggins" title="User talk:BilboBeggins">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-BilboBeggins-20241116233100-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:31, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BilboBeggins-20241116233100-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BilboBeggins-20241116233100-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Valereee-20241117004000-BilboBeggins-20241116233100"></span>Oh please let's not lol... <a href="/wiki/User:Valereee" title="User:Valereee">Valereee</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Valereee" title="User talk:Valereee">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Valereee-20241117004000-BilboBeggins-20241116233100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Valereee-20241117004000-BilboBeggins-20241116233100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Valereee-20241117004000-BilboBeggins-20241116233100"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Valereee-20241117003900-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800"></span>The evidence for each option is nowhere near roughly equal because we have no idea what real evidence there actually is. There's a lot of heat. That's not evidence. <a href="/wiki/User:Valereee" title="User:Valereee">Valereee</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Valereee" title="User talk:Valereee">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Valereee-20241117003900-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:39, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Valereee-20241117003900-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Valereee-20241117003900-Thebiguglyalien-20241116213800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snow_Rise-20241117194300-Valereee-20241117003900"></span>Yes, but Valereee, none of that obviates the core of TBUA's argument. They clearly understand (and agree with) what you are saying about the <a href="/wiki/Knightian_uncertainty" title="Knightian uncertainty">knightian uncertainty</a> involved here. In fact, it is a cornerstone of their point. They are saying that, plugging that uncertainty into the overall analysis of what is the safest course of action here (both in terms of upholding the movement's values and protecting both the project's overall future and the immediate safety and well-being of these volunteers), they believe non-disclosure (and taking the very likely consequences of default in that suit, including both a large default judgment and a fast track towards regulatory reclassification and/or blocking of the site in India) is the lesser of two evils. In short, I think you are directing your efforts to the side of their point, not addressing it.</dd> <dd>Besides, if you want to talk about the actual odds, based on what we actually know, we do have several repeated, consistent indicators from the in-court representations made by WMF's counsel in relation to this case that in fact they have already agreed to divulge the information to the court (which, make no mistake, if true would in this case make it all but 100% certain that ANI will have that information sooner or later.) On the other side of this evidence for trying to divine the "true probability" you refer to, we have Jimmy saying "Trust me, it's going to be alright." but while being unwilling or unable to say why it will be so, or even what "alright" even means in this situation--where it very easily could mean "Yes the information is going to be divulged, but the Board just doesn't see that as the end of the world in the greater context here, and neither do I."</dd> <dd>Now different community members are free to (and will) weigh that assurance (worryingly vague but coming from probably the most respected figure in the Wikimedia movement, and one certainly on the other side of our <a href="/wiki/Information_asymmetry" title="Information asymmetry">informational asymmetry</a> here) vs. the in-court statements differently. My mixed feelings on that subject can be found <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/2024_Wikipedia_blackout#Note_from_Jimbo" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/2024 Wikipedia blackout">here</a>. But TBUA's point (and their resulting position) on what the appropriate <a href="/wiki/Risk_treatment" class="mw-redirect" title="Risk treatment">risk treatment</a> of this situation is, in light of the knightian uncertainty here, is perfectly cogent and valid. So are the positions of those who have enough faith in Jimmy to trust his assurances in light of his track record and the degree of information he has access to here that the community at large does not.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>But, speaking for myself, the longer this goes on, and the more we learn, the more I worry that Jimmy's notion of an 'acceptable outcome' to this situation is significantly different from mine, and that of the rest of the community that overwhelmingly wants no disclosure of PII to the court in this case. Believe me, I'm crossing my fingers to be wrong about that and to have an outcome where I have to come back to this page to say "I'm sorry I couldn't trust you more completely on this one, but phew is that a relief!" But my hope in that outcome is quite diminished at this moment in time, if I am honest. And part of that is because, whatever his possibly valid reasons, the ambiguity about just what he is trying to assure us of is clearly and intentionally designed into his comments on this matter. <i><a href="/wiki/User:Snow_Rise" title="User:Snow Rise"><b style="color:#19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color:#66c0fd">n</b><b style="color:#99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Snow_Rise" title="User talk:Snow Rise"><sup><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b></sup></a></i> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Snow_Rise-20241117194300-Valereee-20241117003900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snow_Rise-20241117194300-Valereee-20241117003900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snow_Rise-20241117194300-Valereee-20241117003900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Valereee-20241117232600-Snow_Rise-20241117194300"></span>I kind of feel like "You'd all be overjoyed" isn't ambiguous. <a href="/wiki/User:Valereee" title="User:Valereee">Valereee</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Valereee" title="User talk:Valereee">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Valereee-20241117232600-Snow_Rise-20241117194300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Valereee-20241117232600-Snow_Rise-20241117194300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Valereee-20241117232600-Snow_Rise-20241117194300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snow_Rise-20241117235300-Valereee-20241117232600"></span>Don't get me wrong, I'm really, really pulling for that interpretation to to bear out. It sure <i>seems</i> to be indicating a best case scenario outcome on the issue the community is most anxious about. I'm just not prepared to assume it yet, and I understand why many are still inclined to urge for proactive action until we know for sure. <i><a href="/wiki/User:Snow_Rise" title="User:Snow Rise"><b style="color:#19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color:#66c0fd">n</b><b style="color:#99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Snow_Rise" title="User talk:Snow Rise"><sup><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b></sup></a></i> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Snow_Rise-20241117235300-Valereee-20241117232600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snow_Rise-20241117235300-Valereee-20241117232600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snow_Rise-20241117235300-Valereee-20241117232600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241117015400-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400"></span>From my interpretation of the entire suit, WMF is only using these editors(especially the one living in india) as pawns to fight this case, so they can preserve their intermediary status in India (because under India's draconian IT laws, Wikipedia can be considered a publisher). If those editors win by proving how everything that ANI has problem with is in fact factual and not defamatory then it's good for everyone involved. If not, WMF loses and has to pay the damages( 200k $ is a mere pocket change for it anyway) or worse, cease all operations in India because the court will consider it a publisher of all the content on it. - <a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241117015400-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241117015400-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241117015400-Jimbo_Wales-20241115203400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241117043900-Ratnahastin-20241117015400"></span>+ Also cases in india take a long time to reach a conclusion. This case may even go for a decade, that buys WMF plenty of time to stay in india and claim to be an intermediary. - <a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241117043900-Ratnahastin-20241117015400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:39, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241117043900-Ratnahastin-20241117015400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241117043900-Ratnahastin-20241117015400"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241117044000-Ratnahastin-20241117043900"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Hako9" title="User:Hako9">Hako9</a>:</span> Is my inference correct? - <a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241117044000-Ratnahastin-20241117043900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241117044000-Ratnahastin-20241117043900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241117044000-Ratnahastin-20241117043900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hako9-20241118015900-Ratnahastin-20241117044000"></span>It could be a year or two, or more, if it goes to appeal in SC, definitely not decades. Don't quote me on that — <a href="/wiki/User:Hako9" title="User:Hako9">hako9</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hako9" title="User talk:Hako9">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Hako9-20241118015900-Ratnahastin-20241117044000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hako9-20241118015900-Ratnahastin-20241117044000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hako9-20241118015900-Ratnahastin-20241117044000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241118022900-Hako9-20241118015900"></span>By SC, I presume the <a href="/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_India" title="Supreme Court of India">Supreme Court of India</a>; isn't there anything between that and the Delhi High Court? Only in extraordinary cases that may affect all of India, or something akin to the <a href="/wiki/SCOTUS" class="mw-redirect" title="SCOTUS">SCOTUS</a>? <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241118022900-Hako9-20241118015900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241118022900-Hako9-20241118015900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241118022900-Hako9-20241118015900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snow_Rise-20241118082000-2601AC47-20241118022900"></span>The Supreme Court has discretionary certiorari power over the state High Courts, but as in most other systems descended of the common law model, it will only take up cases concerning certain enumerated matters and those pertaining to fundamental constitutional rights. And it will only hear a small fraction of the cases it is entitled to entertain and which it is petitioned to take. I don't know the exact figure when it comes to the Delhi High Court (which has a bit of an aggressive track record in rulings related to defamation in recent years) but suffice it to say, it's certainly quite possible the Supreme Court will not take up this case om appeal. <i><a href="/wiki/User:Snow_Rise" title="User:Snow Rise"><b style="color:#19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color:#66c0fd">n</b><b style="color:#99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Snow_Rise" title="User talk:Snow Rise"><sup><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b></sup></a></i> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Snow_Rise-20241118082000-2601AC47-20241118022900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:20, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snow_Rise-20241118082000-2601AC47-20241118022900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snow_Rise-20241118082000-2601AC47-20241118022900"></span> <dl><dd><s><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://dhcappl.nic.in/dhcorderportal/GetOrder.do?ID=smp/2024/724909941731938714546_33176_5242024.pdf"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241119020100-Snow_Rise-20241118082000"></span>[4]</a> Summons have been issued and emails have been handed over to the Delhi court. Now</s> with enough bribes to the right people, ANI will get it's hands on it. - <a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241119020100-Snow_Rise-20241118082000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241119020100-Snow_Rise-20241118082000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241119020100-Snow_Rise-20241118082000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Novem_Linguae-20241119022600-Ratnahastin-20241119020100"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">and emails have been handed over to the Delhi court</q>. Can you please quote the part of the document that says this? I couldn't find it. My read of that document is that WMF served paperwork to the 3 editors on the court's behalf, without disclosing any PII to the court. I could be mistaken of course, so feel free to help me interpret this. –<a href="/wiki/User:Novem_Linguae" title="User:Novem Linguae"><span style="color:blue"><b>Novem Linguae</b></span></a> <small>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Novem_Linguae" title="User talk:Novem Linguae">talk</a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Novem_Linguae-20241119022600-Ratnahastin-20241119020100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Novem_Linguae-20241119022600-Ratnahastin-20241119020100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Novem_Linguae-20241119022600-Ratnahastin-20241119020100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241119023900-Novem_Linguae-20241119022600"></span>You are correct, I misread the order. Assuming that summons were issued on 14 November <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://scroll.in/latest/1075651/delhi-high-court-issues-summonses-to-wikipedia-editors-in-ani-defamation-case">[5]</a> , WMF still has 2 more days to disclose the details (see where the consent order states :<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">(b) The Appellant shall file an affidavit of service in accordance with Chapter VI, Rule 17 of the Delhi High Court (Original Side) Rules, 2018 in sealed cover disclosing all the basic subscriber details of Respondent No. 2-4 available with it, along with the proof of service of summons by email within 7 days of service of summons</q>). - <a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241119023900-Novem_Linguae-20241119022600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241119023900-Novem_Linguae-20241119022600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241119023900-Novem_Linguae-20241119022600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ravensfire-20241119053100-Ratnahastin-20241119023900"></span>Thus time to appeal the order. <b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ravensfire" title="User talk:Ravensfire"><span style="color: darkred;">Ravensfire</span></a></b> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ravensfire" title="User talk:Ravensfire">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ravensfire-20241119053100-Ratnahastin-20241119023900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ravensfire-20241119053100-Ratnahastin-20241119023900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ravensfire-20241119053100-Ratnahastin-20241119023900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ratnahastin-20241119055900-Ravensfire-20241119053100"></span>Actually, they have signed this consent order, can't exactly appeal against what they have agreed to do. - <a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin"><span style="color:#A52A2A;">Ratnahastin</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Ratnahastin-20241119055900-Ravensfire-20241119053100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ratnahastin-20241119055900-Ravensfire-20241119053100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ratnahastin-20241119055900-Ravensfire-20241119053100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Here's_a_barnstar" data-mw-thread-id="h-Here's_a_barnstar-20241115215000"><span id="Here.27s_a_barnstar"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Here's_a_barnstar-20241115215000"></span>Here's a barnstar<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Here's_a_barnstar-20241115215000"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <table style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241115215000-Here's_a_barnstar"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Mensch5.png" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Mensch5.png" decoding="async" width="100" height="96" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="96"/></a></span> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;"><b>The Barnstar of Integrity</b> </td></tr> <tr> <td style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;">I'll get to the point: As someone that many of us trusted, trust, and will always trust to lead Wikipedia, you show the courage, clarity, and unwavering commitment to our policies and guidelines as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SOP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SOP">you originally outlined</a>, especially the last point: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Diplomacy consists of combining honesty and politeness</q>. IMO, amidst this controversy that threatened to needlessly disrupt our free encyclopedia, you demonstrated your <a href="/wiki/Virtues" class="mw-redirect" title="Virtues">virtues</a> and stood against those that – while understandable, and perhaps even have a right to protest – are <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">very premature</q> to call for a blackout. <p>You've heard this countless times from editors in the past, but anyway: You have been an inspiration to me, and the one I quietly looked up to for many years (frankly, only one of a few left). I really thank you for all you can to continue to be one, and for all that desire it. <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241115215000-Here's_a_barnstar" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241115215000-Here's_a_barnstar"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241115215000-Here's_a_barnstar"></span> </p> </td></tr></tbody></table> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241116132800-2601AC47-20241115215000"></span>Wow, that's very kind. Thank you!--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241116132800-2601AC47-20241115215000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:28, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241116132800-2601AC47-20241115215000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241116132800-2601AC47-20241115215000"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Potential_move_from_the_US" data-mw-thread-id="h-Potential_move_from_the_US-20241116205200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Potential_move_from_the_US-20241116205200"></span>Potential move from the US<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Potential_move_from_the_US-20241116205200"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Steinbach-20241116205200-Potential_move_from_the_US"></span>Hi Jimbo, </p><p>There is a slight chance you remember me from the WM mailing list, on which I was quite active nearly 20 years ago. Anyway, I found a reason to bother you again. </p><p>The recent electoral victory of Annoying Orange plunges the United States into a sea of uncertainty. He has on numerous occasions proposed or suggested dictatorial policies. Even if he does not manage to realize these plan, utter chaos is likely to be ahead. Many liberties are at stake, including those that safeguard Wikipedia's neutrality, veracity, and accessibility for everyone. </p><p>As we have seen recently in India and several times before elsewhere, countries that were formerly considered 'free' can descend into authoritarianism very quickly. No checks and balances are to be trusted if those in power purport to act with the support of 'the people', whoever that may be. In a few years, the US may no longer be a safe haven for the either WMF as a legal entity, or for the physical servers containing the information. </p><p>I would therefore like to know whether the boards has been considering a move out of the United States. Naturally, no country is entirely free of this vile brand of populism, but some countries seem relatively safe. These include Canada and Spain. A major brain drain from the United States to Canada is to be expected anyway, so you can no doubt follow some of you acquaintances. </p><p>I know I am probably not the first person suggesting this to you, but since I couldn't find this suggestion here or anywhere else, I felt compelled to make it. Just to be sure: I am a veteran Wikipedian, so I know that I normally should speak to someone else for issues concerning Wikipedia. For <i>offline</i> threats to the very existence of Wikipedia, however, I make an exception. <a href="/wiki/User:Steinbach" title="User:Steinbach">Steinbach</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Steinbach" title="User talk:Steinbach">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Steinbach-20241116205200-Potential_move_from_the_US" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Steinbach-20241116205200-Potential_move_from_the_US"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Steinbach-20241116205200-Potential_move_from_the_US"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Graham87-20241117000700-Steinbach-20241116205200"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Steinbach" title="User:Steinbach">Steinbach</a>:</span> Well there's a similar thread <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(WMF)#Will_you_be_moving_operations_overseas?" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF)">at the WMF village pump section</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Graham87" title="User:Graham87">Graham87</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Graham87" title="User talk:Graham87">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Graham87-20241117000700-Steinbach-20241116205200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Graham87-20241117000700-Steinbach-20241116205200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Graham87-20241117000700-Steinbach-20241116205200"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241122114900-Steinbach-20241116205200"></span>We will obviously do whatever is needed to keep Wikipedia safe, but I'm not that concerned about the US. The First Amendment is still very strong, and there seems to be no wavering in support for it from the justices that Trump supported. There are other elements of public policy about which I do have some concerns, particularly around Section 230 which is pretty crucial for people's ability to post openly on the Internet without premoderation, etc. But even there, I would expect any modifications would tend to be somewhat narrowly targetted. (I'd be opposed to that, but my point is that it might or might not be existential for us depending on the details.)--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241122114900-Steinbach-20241116205200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:49, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241122114900-Steinbach-20241116205200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241122114900-Steinbach-20241116205200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241122125400-Jimbo_Wales-20241122114900"></span>Speaking of that Section, this news from Fortune: <i>Trump’s pick for FCC chair wants to eliminate the law shielding social media companies from legal consequences for posts on their platforms</i> - <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://fortune.com/2024/11/19/trump-fcc-pick-repeal-section-230-meta-facebook-instagram-tiktok-x-youtube/">link to article</a>. Not surprising to me. They might finally get their way, <i>if</i> they may really will it. <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241122125400-Jimbo_Wales-20241122114900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:54, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241122125400-Jimbo_Wales-20241122114900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241122125400-Jimbo_Wales-20241122114900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Good_article_reassessment_for_Mzoli's" data-mw-thread-id="h-Good_article_reassessment_for_Mzoli's-20241118144200"><span id="Good_article_reassessment_for_Mzoli.27s"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Good_article_reassessment_for_Mzoli's-20241118144200"></span>Good article reassessment for <a href="/wiki/Mzoli%27s" title="Mzoli's">Mzoli's</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Good_article_reassessment_for_Mzoli's-20241118144200"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Mzoli%27s" title="Mzoli's"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118144200-Good_article_reassessment_for_Mzoli's"></span>Mzoli's</a> has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Mzoli%27s/1" title="Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Mzoli's/1">reassessment page</a>. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. <a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">~~ AirshipJungleman29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AirshipJungleman29" title="User talk:AirshipJungleman29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118144200-Good_article_reassessment_for_Mzoli's" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118144200-Good_article_reassessment_for_Mzoli's"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118144200-Good_article_reassessment_for_Mzoli's"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241118144700-AirshipJungleman29-20241118144200"></span>This isn't a personal thing on him, right? <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241118144700-AirshipJungleman29-20241118144200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241118144700-AirshipJungleman29-20241118144200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241118144700-AirshipJungleman29-20241118144200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EF5-20241118145400-2601AC47-20241118144700"></span>What? Anyone can GAR any GA if they feel it no longer meets the criteria. <a href="/wiki/User:EF5" title="User:EF5"><span style="color:#A188FC;"><b>E</b></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EF5" title="User talk:EF5"><span style="color:#A188FC;"><b>F</b></span></a></sub><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/EF5" title="Special:Contributions/EF5"><span style="color:#A188FC;"><b>5</b></span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-EF5-20241118145400-2601AC47-20241118144700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:54, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EF5-20241118145400-2601AC47-20241118144700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EF5-20241118145400-2601AC47-20241118144700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118145400-EF5-20241118145400"></span>In this case I notified Jimbo as the article's original creator. <a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">~~ AirshipJungleman29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AirshipJungleman29" title="User talk:AirshipJungleman29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118145400-EF5-20241118145400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:54, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118145400-EF5-20241118145400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118145400-EF5-20241118145400"></span> <dl><dd><small><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241118145700-AirshipJungleman29-20241118145400"></span>Just in case, given the timing of it...</small> <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241118145700-AirshipJungleman29-20241118145400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:57, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241118145700-AirshipJungleman29-20241118145400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241118145700-AirshipJungleman29-20241118145400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EF5-20241118145900-2601AC47-20241118145700"></span>Well… that's fair. Either way, Airship is a trusted member of the community, I wouldn't expect them to have a "vendetta" against Jimbo pertaining to a GAR. <a href="/wiki/User:EF5" title="User:EF5"><span style="color:#A188FC;"><b>E</b></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EF5" title="User talk:EF5"><span style="color:#A188FC;"><b>F</b></span></a></sub><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/EF5" title="Special:Contributions/EF5"><span style="color:#A188FC;"><b>5</b></span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-EF5-20241118145900-2601AC47-20241118145700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EF5-20241118145900-2601AC47-20241118145700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EF5-20241118145900-2601AC47-20241118145700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118174900-EF5-20241118145900"></span>I'm sorry to disappoint, but I must reveal that I have sworn an oath of revenge against Jimbo and will pursue this vendetta <i>by any means necessary</i>, GAR notifications included. Watch this space, Mr Wales. <a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">~~ AirshipJungleman29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AirshipJungleman29" title="User talk:AirshipJungleman29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118174900-EF5-20241118145900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118174900-EF5-20241118145900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241118174900-EF5-20241118145900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EF5-20241118175200-AirshipJungleman29-20241118174900"></span>I... <i>may</i> have burst out laughing because of that. <a href="/wiki/User:EF5" title="User:EF5"><span style="color:#A188FC;"><b>E</b></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EF5" title="User talk:EF5"><span style="color:#A188FC;"><b>F</b></span></a></sub><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/EF5" title="Special:Contributions/EF5"><span style="color:#A188FC;"><b>5</b></span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-EF5-20241118175200-AirshipJungleman29-20241118174900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EF5-20241118175200-AirshipJungleman29-20241118174900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EF5-20241118175200-AirshipJungleman29-20241118174900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241120090500-EF5-20241118175200"></span>I <i>definitely</i> did.--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241120090500-EF5-20241118175200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241120090500-EF5-20241118175200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241120090500-EF5-20241118175200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="The_Signpost:_18_November_2024" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_Signpost:_18_November_2024-20241118234200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_Signpost:_18_November_2024-20241118234200"></span><i>The Signpost</i>: 18 November 2024<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_Signpost:_18_November_2024-20241118234200"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241118234200-The_Signpost:_18_November_2024"></span>News and notes: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-11-18/News_and_notes" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-11-18/News and notes">Open letter to WMF about court case breaks one thousand signatures, big arb case declined, U4C begins accepting cases</a></li></ul> <ul><li>In the media: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-11-18/In_the_media" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-11-18/In the media">Summons issued for Wikipedia editors by Indian court, "Gaza genocide" RfC close in news, old admin Gwern now big AI guy, and a "spectrum of reluctance" over Australian place names</a></li></ul> <ul><li>Recent research: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-11-18/Recent_research" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-11-18/Recent research">SPINACH: AI help for asking Wikidata "challenging real-world questions"</a></li></ul> <ul><li>News from the WMF: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-11-18/News_from_the_WMF" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-11-18/News from the WMF">Wikimedia Foundation and Wikimedia Endowment audit reports: FY 2023–2024</a></li></ul> <ul><li>Traffic report: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-11-18/Traffic_report" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-11-18/Traffic report">Well, let us share with you our knowledge, about the electoral college</a> </li></ul></div> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost">Read this Signpost in full</a></b> * <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Single/2024-11-18" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Single/2024-11-18">Single-page</a> * <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Subscribe">Unsubscribe</a> * <a href="/wiki/User:MediaWiki_message_delivery" title="User:MediaWiki message delivery">MediaWiki message delivery</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MediaWiki_message_delivery" title="User talk:MediaWiki message delivery">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241118234200-The_Signpost:_18_November_2024" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241118234200-The_Signpost:_18_November_2024"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241118234200-The_Signpost:_18_November_2024"></span> </div></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message" data-mw-thread-id="h-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message-20241119000300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message-20241119000300"></span>ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message-20241119000300"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div class="ivmbox" style="margin-bottom: 1em; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; background-color: #fdf2d5; padding: 0.5em; display: flex; align-items: center;"> <div class="ivmbox-image noresize" style="padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em;"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119000300-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Scale_of_justice_2.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img 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Voting in the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ACE2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ACE2024">2024 Arbitration Committee elections</a></b> is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 2 December 2024. All <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2024#Election_timeline" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024">eligible users</a></b> are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. </p><p>The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ARBCOM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ARBCOM">Arbitration Committee</a> is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration">Wikipedia arbitration process</a>. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BAN">site bans</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TBAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TBAN">topic bans</a>, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy">arbitration policy</a> describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. </p><p>If you wish to participate in the 2024 election, please review <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2024/Candidates" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024/Candidates">the candidates</a> and submit your choices on the <b><a href="/wiki/Special:SecurePoll/vote/813" title="Special:SecurePoll/vote/813">voting page</a></b>. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:NoACEMM" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:NoACEMM">NoACEMM</a>}}</code> to your user talk page. <small><a href="/wiki/User:MediaWiki_message_delivery" title="User:MediaWiki message delivery">MediaWiki message delivery</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MediaWiki_message_delivery" title="User talk:MediaWiki message delivery">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119000300-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119000300-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119000300-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message"></span> </p> </div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Recommendation_for_Image" data-mw-thread-id="h-Recommendation_for_Image-20241119220000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Recommendation_for_Image-20241119220000"></span>Recommendation for Image<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Recommendation_for_Image-20241119220000"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wcamp9-20241119220000-Recommendation_for_Image"></span>I recommend you take a new picture of yourself to replace the image of you in 2019 on your user page and your Wikipedia one. Thinking about it, 5 years feels like a long time ago, and it would be great to replace it with one that would reflect your recent appearance rather than one from half a decade ago. <a href="/wiki/User:Wcamp9" title="User:Wcamp9">Wcamp9</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wcamp9" title="User talk:Wcamp9">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Wcamp9-20241119220000-Recommendation_for_Image" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:00, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wcamp9-20241119220000-Recommendation_for_Image"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wcamp9-20241119220000-Recommendation_for_Image"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241119222300-Wcamp9-20241119220000"></span>I vote for <a href="/wiki/File:Jimmy_Wales_beim_WMCH_Birthday_singing.JPG" title="File:Jimmy Wales beim WMCH Birthday singing.JPG">File:Jimmy Wales beim WMCH Birthday singing.JPG</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">~~ AirshipJungleman29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AirshipJungleman29" title="User talk:AirshipJungleman29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-AirshipJungleman29-20241119222300-Wcamp9-20241119220000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241119222300-Wcamp9-20241119220000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241119222300-Wcamp9-20241119220000"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241119222500-Wcamp9-20241119220000"></span>Or this one? <figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Jimmy_Wales_in_New_York_City_March_2023_blurred_cropped.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Jimmy_Wales_in_New_York_City_March_2023_blurred_cropped.jpg/220px-Jimmy_Wales_in_New_York_City_March_2023_blurred_cropped.jpg" decoding="async" width="220" height="249" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Jimmy_Wales_in_New_York_City_March_2023_blurred_cropped.jpg/330px-Jimmy_Wales_in_New_York_City_March_2023_blurred_cropped.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Jimmy_Wales_in_New_York_City_March_2023_blurred_cropped.jpg/440px-Jimmy_Wales_in_New_York_City_March_2023_blurred_cropped.jpg 2x" data-file-width="593" data-file-height="670"/></a><figcaption>Jimmy Wales in New York City March 2023 blurred cropped</figcaption></figure> <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241119222500-Wcamp9-20241119220000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241119222500-Wcamp9-20241119220000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241119222500-Wcamp9-20241119220000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241120090400-2601AC47-20241119222500"></span>That one's nice. I just looked in the mirror and it seems pretty accurate!--<a href="/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales" title="User:Jimbo Wales">Jimbo Wales</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Jimbo_Wales-20241120090400-2601AC47-20241119222500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241120090400-2601AC47-20241119222500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimbo_Wales-20241120090400-2601AC47-20241119222500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Unblock" data-mw-thread-id="h-Unblock-20241120093300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Unblock-20241120093300"></span>Unblock<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Unblock-20241120093300"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rumensz-20241120093300-Unblock"></span>Please unblock me for 7 days so I can participate in the Asia Month initiative. <a href="/wiki/User:Rumensz" title="User:Rumensz">Rumensz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rumensz" title="User talk:Rumensz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Rumensz-20241120093300-Unblock" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rumensz-20241120093300-Unblock"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rumensz-20241120093300-Unblock"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20241120102500-Rumensz-20241120093300"></span>Hi Rumensz, you do not appear to be blocked. Are you talking about a different project? Either way, there will be more appropriate forums to raise questions and requests you may have. <a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis">CMD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chipmunkdavis" title="User talk:Chipmunkdavis">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Chipmunkdavis-20241120102500-Rumensz-20241120093300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20241120102500-Rumensz-20241120093300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chipmunkdavis-20241120102500-Rumensz-20241120093300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241120125100-Chipmunkdavis-20241120102500"></span>Likely Bulgarian Wikipedia. <a href="/wiki/User:AirshipJungleman29" title="User:AirshipJungleman29">~~ AirshipJungleman29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AirshipJungleman29" title="User talk:AirshipJungleman29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-AirshipJungleman29-20241120125100-Chipmunkdavis-20241120102500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241120125100-Chipmunkdavis-20241120102500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AirshipJungleman29-20241120125100-Chipmunkdavis-20241120102500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241120125700-AirshipJungleman29-20241120125100"></span>And I checked that Rumensz was blocked in April for 1 yr for (rough translation from Bulgarian) "aggressive behavior in violation of project rules"; in other words, disruptive editing and possibly incivility. <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241120125700-AirshipJungleman29-20241120125100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241120125700-AirshipJungleman29-20241120125100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241120125700-AirshipJungleman29-20241120125100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Quick_note_re:_Checkuser_and_privacy" data-mw-thread-id="h-Quick_note_re:_Checkuser_and_privacy-20241123043200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Quick_note_re:_Checkuser_and_privacy-20241123043200"></span>Quick note re: Checkuser and privacy<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Quick_note_re:_Checkuser_and_privacy-20241123043200"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Red-tailed_hawk-20241123043200-Quick_note_re:_Checkuser_and_privacy"></span>Since you're on the board of the WMF, I figure that you may want to be aware of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#CheckUser_for_all_new_users" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)">Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#CheckUser for all new users</a>. — <a href="/wiki/User:Red-tailed_hawk" title="User:Red-tailed hawk"><span style="color: #660000">Red-tailed hawk</span></a> <sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Red-tailed_hawk" title="User talk:Red-tailed hawk"><span style="color: #660000">(nest)</span></a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-Red-tailed_hawk-20241123043200-Quick_note_re:_Checkuser_and_privacy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Red-tailed_hawk-20241123043200-Quick_note_re:_Checkuser_and_privacy"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Red-tailed_hawk-20241123043200-Quick_note_re:_Checkuser_and_privacy"></span> </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_38#What_was_the_point...?" title="User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 38"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601AC47-20241123145400-Red-tailed_hawk-20241123043200"></span>Found this from the talk archives</a>. How would he handle it? <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2601AC47" title="User talk:2601AC47">talk</a>|<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601AC47" title="Special:Contributions/2601AC47">contribs</a>) <span style="font-size:80%"><span style="color:grey;">Isn't a IP anon</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#c-2601AC47-20241123145400-Red-tailed_hawk-20241123043200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601AC47-20241123145400-Red-tailed_hawk-20241123043200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601AC47-20241123145400-Red-tailed_hawk-20241123043200"></span></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=1259129781">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=1259129781</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Category</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_pages_referenced_by_the_press" title="Category:Wikipedia pages referenced by the press">Wikipedia pages referenced by the press</a></li></ul></div><div id="mw-hidden-catlinks" class="mw-hidden-catlinks mw-hidden-cats-hidden">Hidden categories: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Noindexed_pages" title="Category:Noindexed pages">Noindexed pages</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_pages_semi-protected_from_banned_users" title="Category:Wikipedia pages semi-protected from banned users">Wikipedia pages semi-protected from banned users</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_move-protected_user_and_user_talk_pages" title="Category:Wikipedia move-protected user and user talk pages">Wikipedia move-protected user and user talk pages</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 23 November 2024, at 14:54<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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