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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" /><title>LKML: Konstantin Ryabitsev: Re: On community influencing (was Re: [PATCH v8 2/2] rust: add dma coherent allocator abstraction.)</title><link href="/css/message.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" /><link href="/css/wrap.css" rel="alternate stylesheet" type="text/css" title="wrap" /><link href="/css/nowrap.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" title="nowrap" /><link href="/favicon.ico" rel="shortcut icon" /><script src="/js/simple-calendar.js" type="text/javascript"></script><script src="/js/styleswitcher.js" type="text/javascript"></script><link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="lkml.org : last 100 messages" href="/rss.php" /><link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="lkml.org : last messages by Konstantin Ryabitsev" href="/groupie.php?aid=" /><script> var _paq = window._paq = window._paq || []; /* tracker methods like "setCustomDimension" should be called before "trackPageView" */ _paq.push(["setDoNotTrack", true]); _paq.push(["disableCookies"]); _paq.push(['trackPageView']); _paq.push(['enableLinkTracking']); (function() { var u="//m.lkml.org/"; _paq.push(['setTrackerUrl', u+'matomo.php']); _paq.push(['setSiteId', '1']); var d=document, g=d.createElement('script'), s=d.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; g.async=true; g.src=u+'matomo.js'; s.parentNode.insertBefore(g,s); })(); </script></head><body onload="es.jasper.simpleCalendar.init();" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td width="180" align="center"><a href="/"><img style="border:0;width:135px;height:32px" src="/images/toprowlk.gif" alt="lkml.org" /></a></td><td width="32">聽</td><td class="nb"><div><a class="nb" href="/lkml"> [lkml]</a> 聽 <a class="nb" href="/lkml/2025"> [2025]</a> 聽 <a class="nb" href="/lkml/2025/2"> [Feb]</a> 聽 <a class="nb" href="/lkml/2025/2/7"> [7]</a> 聽 <a class="nb" href="/lkml/last100"> [last100]</a> 聽 <a href="/rss.php"><img src="/images/rss-or.gif" border="0" alt="RSS Feed" /></a></div><div>Views: <a href="#" class="nowrap" onclick="setActiveStyleSheet('wrap');return false;">[wrap]</a><a href="#" class="wrap" onclick="setActiveStyleSheet('nowrap');return false;">[no wrap]</a> 聽 <a class="nb" href="/lkml/mheaders/2025/2/7/1336" onclick="this.href='/lkml/headers'+'/2025/2/7/1336';">[headers]</a>聽 <a href="/lkml/bounce/2025/2/7/1336">[forward]</a>聽 </div></td><td width="32">聽</td></tr><tr><td valign="top"><div class="es-jasper-simpleCalendar" baseurl="/lkml/"></div><div class="threadlist">Messages in this thread</div><ul class="threadlist"><li class="root"><a href="/lkml/2025/1/8/801">First message in thread</a></li><li><a href="/lkml/2025/2/6/1525">Danilo Krummrich</a><ul><li><a href="/lkml/2025/2/7/16">Hector Martin</a><ul><li class="origin"><a href="/lkml/2025/2/8/9">Konstantin Ryabitsev</a><ul><li><a href="/lkml/2025/2/8/9">Hector Martin</a><ul><li><a href="/lkml/2025/2/7/1412">Konstantin Ryabitsev</a></li><li><a href="/lkml/2025/2/7/1496">Linus Torvalds</a></li><li><a href="/lkml/2025/2/7/1552">"Dr. David Alan Gilbert"</a></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></td><td width="32" rowspan="2" class="c" valign="top"><img src="/images/icornerl.gif" width="32" height="32" alt="/" /></td><td class="c" rowspan="2" valign="top" style="padding-top: 1em"><table><tr><td><table><tr><td class="lp">Date</td><td class="rp" itemprop="datePublished">Fri, 7 Feb 2025 12:14:36 -0500</td></tr><tr><td class="lp">From</td><td class="rp" itemprop="author">Konstantin Ryabitsev <></td></tr><tr><td class="lp">Subject</td><td class="rp" itemprop="name">Re: On community influencing (was Re: [PATCH v8 2/2] rust: add dma coherent allocator abstraction.)</td></tr></table></td><td></td></tr></table><pre itemprop="articleBody">On Fri, Feb 07, 2025 at 05:16:28AM +0900, Hector Martin wrote:<br />> And what I see, is very little effort to improve that status quo, or at<br />> least very little that yields any actual change that isn't just<br />> band-aids (e.g. tooling like b4, which is nice and appreciated, but<br />> doesn't fix any underlying issues). And that's not going to change no<br />> matter how many long technical arguments we have on the MLs (or even off<br />> MLs, since MLs are also not particularly good for this, and I've seen<br />> multiple arguments only reach a resolution after being redirected to IRC).<br /><br />From my perspective, there are several camps clashing when it comes to the<br />kernel development model. One is people who are (rightfully) pointing out that<br />using the mailing lists was fine 20 years ago, but the world of software<br />development has vastly moved on to forges.<br /><br />The other camp is people who (also rightfully) point out that kernel<br />development has always been decentralized and we should resist all attempts to<br />get ourselves into a position where Linux is dependent on any single<br />Benevolent Entity (Github, Gitlab, LF, kernel.org, etc), because this would<br />give that entity too much political or commercial control or, at the very<br />least, introduce SPoFs.<br /><br />At best, I can hope to make both camps grumpily agree to coexist.<br /><br />I *am* very wary of Benevolent Entities, because we have too many very recent<br />examples of companies "realigning priorities" when political winds shift.<br />Programs and initiatives that have until recently been poster board examples<br />of progress and benevolence are shuttered and defunded. I am concerned that<br />we're only a couple of mood swings away from someone deciding that free<br />software should not be allowed to exist because it benefits America's foes.<br />Many of us remember all too well when large tech giants treated Linux as a<br />"cancer" to be opposed, and I can certainly see that idea easily re-entering<br />some Big Brain in Charge.<br /><br />From my perspective, I would like to ensure that Linux development can<br />continue without a hard dependency on a single centralized forge -- whether<br />controlled by a large commercial entity, or even a standalone one that is<br />operated by kernel.org. It's becoming shockingly difficult to operate a public<br />resource on the web unless you're willing to put it behind a large commercial<br />CDN that will protect you from hostile bots (and if you do that, you're back<br />to depending on the whims of a Benevolent Entity).<br /><br />We're trying to get lore.kernel.org to the point where it's like a global<br />messaging bus that is indexed and searchable. Currently, you mostly have to<br />send things to a mailing list for them to end up on lore, but it's gradually<br />becoming less and less the case. We're already bridging with bugzilla and we<br />should be able to bridge with forges soon, too (currently delayed again<br />because I'm scrambling to move kernel.org frontends away from Equinix). Who<br />knows, we may be actually leapfrogging the forge era of software development<br />straight into "AI" agents era -- but that remains to be seen.<br /><br />Anyway, all of this is to say that I'm happy that you've found b4 useful, but<br />I wouldn't view it as a band-aid -- it's just a very small and email-centric<br />way to interact with the kernel lore.<br /><br />-K<br /><br /><br /></pre></td><td width="32" rowspan="2" class="c" valign="top"><img src="/images/icornerr.gif" width="32" height="32" alt="\" /></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="bottom"> 聽 </td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="bottom">聽</td><td class="c" valign="bottom" style="padding-bottom: 0px"><img src="/images/bcornerl.gif" width="32" height="32" alt="\" /></td><td class="c">聽</td><td class="c" valign="bottom" style="padding-bottom: 0px"><img src="/images/bcornerr.gif" width="32" height="32" alt="/" /></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top" colspan="2"> 聽 </td><td class="lm">Last update: 2025-02-07 18:15 聽聽 [W:2.283 / U:2.527 seconds]<br />漏2003-2020 <a href="http://blog.jasper.es/"><span itemprop="editor">Jasper Spaans</span></a>|hosted at <a href="https://www.digitalocean.com/?refcode=9a8e99d24cf9">Digital Ocean</a> and my Meterkast|<a href="http://blog.jasper.es/categories.html#lkml-ref">Read the blog</a></td><td>聽</td></tr></table><script language="javascript" src="/js/styleswitcher.js" type="text/javascript"></script></body></html>