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href="#What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>What would be the best way to work this in?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>No mention of the Lipstick Building?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-No_Mention_of_Johnson/Burgee?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a 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.wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg/35px-Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="22" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg/53px-Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg/70px-Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="973" data-file-height="609"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United States">United States</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ohio" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ohio">Ohio</a></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-low">Low‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg/100px-Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg.png" decoding="async" width="100" height="63" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg/150px-Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg/200px-Flag-map_of_the_United_States.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="973" data-file-height="609"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/32px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="17" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/48px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/64px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1235" data-file-height="650"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:United_States" title="Portal:United States">United States portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United States">WikiProject United States</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the <a href="/wiki/United_States" title="United States">United States of America</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · 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dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:last-child::after{content:")";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol{counter-reset:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><div class="hlist" style="font-size:small; border:1px solid silver; padding:4px; text-align:center; border-radius:10px;"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_United_States#Usage" title="Template:WikiProject United States">Template Usage</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States/Requested_Articles" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United States/Requested Articles"><b>Articles Requested!</b></a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States/Members" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United States/Members">Become a Member</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_United_States" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States">Project Talk</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States/Article_alerts" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United States/Article alerts">Alerts</a></li></ul> </div><span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">United States</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject United States</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject United States</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">United States articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-low"><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_United_States_articles" title="Category:Low-importance United States articles">Low</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Low-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United States/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Ohio.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_Ohio.svg/82px-Flag_of_Ohio.svg.png" decoding="async" width="82" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_Ohio.svg/122px-Flag_of_Ohio.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_Ohio.svg/163px-Flag_of_Ohio.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="520" data-file-height="320"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright" style="margin:0"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_Ohio.svg/32px-Flag_of_Ohio.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_Ohio.svg/48px-Flag_of_Ohio.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_Ohio.svg/64px-Flag_of_Ohio.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="520" data-file-height="320"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Ohio" title="Portal:Ohio">Ohio portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ohio" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ohio">WikiProject Ohio</a></b>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/25px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/38px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/50px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">Biography</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Arts_and_entertainment" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Arts and entertainment">Arts and Entertainment</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/60px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="60" height="60" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/90px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/120px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/28px-P_vip.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/41px-P_vip.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/55px-P_vip.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1911" data-file-height="1944"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Biography" title="Portal:Biography">Biography portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">WikiProject Biography</a></b>, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. 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Further details are available <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/Texas_A_and_M_University/History_of_20th_and_21st_Century_Landscape_Architecture_(Spring_2020)" title="Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/Texas A and M University/History of 20th and 21st Century Landscape Architecture (Spring 2020)">on the course page</a>. Student editor(s): <a href="/wiki/User:Kurtisbradicich" title="User:Kurtisbradicich">Kurtisbradicich</a>. </p><p><span style="font-size:85%;">Above undated message substituted from <a href="/wiki/Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org_assignment" title="Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment">Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:PrimeBOT" title="User:PrimeBOT">PrimeBOT</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PrimeBOT" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:PrimeBOT">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-PrimeBOT-2022-01-17T06:32:00.000Z-Wiki_Education_Foundation-supported_course_assignment" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PrimeBOT-2022-01-17T06:32:00.000Z-Wiki_Education_Foundation-supported_course_assignment"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PrimeBOT-2022-01-17T06:32:00.000Z-Wiki_Education_Foundation-supported_course_assignment"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Discussion" data-mw-thread-id="h-Discussion-2005-09-24T02:40:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Discussion-2005-09-24T02:40:00.000Z"></span>Discussion<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Discussion-2005-09-24T02:40:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Discussion"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z-Discussion"></span>Why is there no mention of Philip Johnson's Nazi past? See <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://jewishworldreview.com/0205/applebaum_stigma.php3">http://jewishworldreview.com/0205/applebaum_stigma.php3</a>, for example.</li></ul> <p><a href="/wiki/User:MSTCrow" title="User:MSTCrow">MSTCrow</a> 03:31, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC) What about Poper Ratzinger's Nazi past? Also, I think that given he left Germany in 1939, give him some credit for waking up from his stupor.<a href="/wiki/User:131.96.70.164" title="User:131.96.70.164">131.96.70.164</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z-Discussion"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z-Discussion"></span> </p><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lockley-2005-09-24T02:40:00.000Z-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z"></span>I agree that it would be good to summarize this (see also the article "<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/31/opinion/31stevens.html?8bl">Form follows fascism</a>" in the 1/31/2005 <i>New York Times</i>). I myself had no knowledge of this previously. (Someone added one sentence, but it's clearly not really enough.) <a href="/wiki/User:Stevenj" title="User:Stevenj">—Steven G. Johnson</a> 17:04, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)</li></ul> <ul><li>Source for recent edits re: Johnson's fascist past is Franz Schulze's biography "Philip Johnson: Life and Work" and Kazys Varnelis's online article "We Cannot Not Know History", at <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://varnelis.net/research/johnson.html">http://varnelis.net/research/johnson.html</a>. I've traded emails with Professor Varnelis and he is a thoroughly credible source as well as a nice guy. --<a href="/wiki/User:Lockley" title="User:Lockley">Lockley</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Lockley-2005-09-24T02:40:00.000Z-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lockley-2005-09-24T02:40:00.000Z-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lockley-2005-09-24T02:40:00.000Z-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NickBurns-2006-09-21T20:30:00.000Z-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z"></span>I added some info on this....hopefully, after several edits, I came up with something balanced. (PS, added bullet points to all comments, for some odd reason they are all running together....) <a href="/wiki/User:NickBurns" title="User:NickBurns">NickBurns</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-NickBurns-2006-09-21T20:30:00.000Z-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NickBurns-2006-09-21T20:30:00.000Z-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NickBurns-2006-09-21T20:30:00.000Z-131.96.70.164-2006-11-22T07:32:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Um..." data-mw-thread-id="h-Um...-2006-09-21T16:56:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Um...-2006-09-21T16:56:00.000Z"></span>Um...<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Um...-2006-09-21T16:56:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Um..."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NickBurns-2006-09-21T16:56:00.000Z-Um..."></span>If you see something missing in an article....add it. <a href="/wiki/User:NickBurns" title="User:NickBurns">NickBurns</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-NickBurns-2006-09-21T16:56:00.000Z-Um..." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NickBurns-2006-09-21T16:56:00.000Z-Um..."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NickBurns-2006-09-21T16:56:00.000Z-Um..."></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?" data-mw-thread-id="h-What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?-2007-06-05T00:23:00.000Z"><span id="What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?-2007-06-05T00:23:00.000Z"></span>What would be the best way to work this in?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?-2007-06-05T00:23:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: What would be the best way to work this in?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lawikitejana-2007-06-05T00:23:00.000Z-What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?"></span>I wanted to include more than just a one-line mention of his <a href="/wiki/Cenotaph" title="Cenotaph">cenotaph</a> for the <a href="/wiki/John_F._Kennedy" title="John F. Kennedy">John F. Kennedy</a> Memorial near <a href="/wiki/Dealey_Plaza" title="Dealey Plaza">Dealey Plaza</a> in <a href="/wiki/Dallas,_Texas" class="mw-redirect" title="Dallas, Texas">Dallas</a>, but I can't find an appropriate place. I added it to the list of noted works, but wanted to add a bit more, such as the fact that he was invited personally by <a href="/wiki/Stanley_Marcus" title="Stanley Marcus">Stanley Marcus</a> and that he waived his fee for the project. It doesn't fit under the heading "Later Buildings" because it isn't a building. I suppose we could change it to later works ... there also was a wonderful quote, haven't been able to pin down a year, regarding Marcus' effect on his career: </p> <ul><li>"Phillip Johnson, was quoted as saying, 'I have been the beneficiary for some 40 years of people saying, "Stanley Marcus says you're a good architect." '" — from <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.shareholder.com/bid/news/20020805-87212.cfm">a Sotheby's offering of items from Marcus' art collection</a></li></ul> <p>Anyone have ideas on how this material could be worked in appropriately? <a href="/wiki/User:Lawikitejana" title="User:Lawikitejana">Lawikitejana</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Lawikitejana-2007-06-05T00:23:00.000Z-What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lawikitejana-2007-06-05T00:23:00.000Z-What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lawikitejana-2007-06-05T00:23:00.000Z-What_would_be_the_best_way_to_work_this_in?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?" data-mw-thread-id="h-No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?-2007-11-15T20:51:00.000Z"><span id="No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?-2007-11-15T20:51:00.000Z"></span>No mention of the Lipstick Building?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?-2007-11-15T20:51:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: No mention of the Lipstick Building?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-140.239.233.66-2007-11-15T20:51:00.000Z-No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?"></span>Hahaha! I bet some autistic deletionist purged the Lipstick Building ("non-notable!") from this page. No wonder no one bothers contributing anymore. <small>—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/140.239.233.66" title="Special:Contributions/140.239.233.66">140.239.233.66</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:140.239.233.66" title="User talk:140.239.233.66">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-140.239.233.66-2007-11-15T20:51:00.000Z-No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-140.239.233.66-2007-11-15T20:51:00.000Z-No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-140.239.233.66-2007-11-15T20:51:00.000Z-No_mention_of_the_Lipstick_Building?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="No_Mention_of_Johnson/Burgee?" data-mw-thread-id="h-No_Mention_of_Johnson/Burgee?-2010-11-13T20:11:00.000Z"><span id="No_Mention_of_Johnson.2FBurgee.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-No_Mention_of_Johnson/Burgee?-2010-11-13T20:11:00.000Z"></span>No Mention of Johnson/Burgee?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-No_Mention_of_Johnson/Burgee?-2010-11-13T20:11:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: No Mention of Johnson/Burgee?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TheMightyHercules-2010-11-13T20:11:00.000Z-No_Mention_of_Johnson/Burgee?"></span>There's no mention of this firm (other than in credits) nor are any other firms with which he was associated mentioned? --<a href="/wiki/User:TheMightyHercules" class="mw-redirect" title="User:TheMightyHercules">TMH</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheMightyHercules" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:TheMightyHercules">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-TheMightyHercules-2010-11-13T20:11:00.000Z-No_Mention_of_Johnson/Burgee?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:11, 13 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TheMightyHercules-2010-11-13T20:11:00.000Z-No_Mention_of_Johnson/Burgee?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TheMightyHercules-2010-11-13T20:11:00.000Z-No_Mention_of_Johnson/Burgee?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Introduction" data-mw-thread-id="h-Introduction-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Introduction-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z"></span>Introduction<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Introduction-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Introduction"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Freshacconci-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z-Introduction"></span>Since the disruptive editor (now reported) refuses to discuss his edits, I'll start the discussion without him. Obviously there are three editors who agree that stating Johnson was influential is acceptable for the lede. The editor in question, after fishing around (and some bad faith accusations) has settled on <a href="/wiki/MOS:OPENPARA" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:OPENPARA">MOS:OPENPARA</a>. However, that guideline merely states that the language should be neutral. However, it also states that it should indicate why the subject is notable. Johnson is an architect but beyond that he's an influential architect. Not every architect we find on Wikipedia is influential, just as not every writer is considered one of the greatest writers in the English language, yet the <a href="/wiki/William_Shakespeare" title="William Shakespeare">William Shakespeare</a> article states exactly that, in the lede. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SUBJECTIVE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SUBJECTIVE">WP:SUBJECTIVE</a>, under <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> clearly states that while we cannot state that someone is the "greatest" or <i>most</i> influential, we can, and should, "provide an overview of the common interpretations of a creative work, preferably with citations to experts holding that interpretation." We have those citations and stating <i>why</i> Johnson is notable is acceptable and encouraged. <a href="/wiki/User:Freshacconci" title="User:Freshacconci"><b><span style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</span></b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Freshacconci" title="User talk:Freshacconci"><b><span style="color:#B22222;"> talk</span><span style="color:#2F4F4F;"> to me</span></b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Freshacconci-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z-Introduction" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:49, 21 December 2016 (UTC)</a> <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Theroadislong" title="User:Theroadislong">Theroadislong</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:Modernist" title="User:Modernist">Modernist</a>:</span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Freshacconci-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z-Introduction"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Freshacconci-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z-Introduction"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Modernist-2016-12-21T23:07:00.000Z-Freshacconci-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z"></span>Philip Johnson was an enormously influential architect and in particular among other things; glass house and Seagram's building aside; being a founding father of the architecture department at the <a href="/wiki/Museum_of_Modern_Art" title="Museum of Modern Art">Museum of Modern Art</a>; influencing thousands of people over the years...<a href="/wiki/User:Modernist" title="User:Modernist">Modernist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Modernist" title="User talk:Modernist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Modernist-2016-12-21T23:07:00.000Z-Freshacconci-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:07, 21 December 2016 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Modernist-2016-12-21T23:07:00.000Z-Freshacconci-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Modernist-2016-12-21T23:07:00.000Z-Freshacconci-2016-12-21T19:49:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="External_links_modified" data-mw-thread-id="h-External_links_modified-2017-12-05T16:15:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-External_links_modified-2017-12-05T16:15:00.000Z"></span>External links modified<span data-mw-comment-end="h-External_links_modified-2017-12-05T16:15:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: External links modified"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InternetArchiveBot-2017-12-05T16:15:00.000Z-External_links_modified"></span>Hello fellow Wikipedians, </p><p>I have just modified 2 external links on <a href="/wiki/Philip_Johnson" title="Philip Johnson">Philip Johnson</a>. 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I made the following changes: </p> <ul><li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20100208181856/http://www.apple.com/pro/profiles/glasshouse/">https://web.archive.org/web/20100208181856/http://www.apple.com/pro/profiles/glasshouse/</a> to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.apple.com/pro/profiles/glasshouse/">https://www.apple.com/pro/profiles/glasshouse/</a></li> <li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20111011112748/http://philipjohnsonglasshouse.org/history/bios/whitney/chapter1/">https://web.archive.org/web/20111011112748/http://philipjohnsonglasshouse.org/history/bios/whitney/chapter1/</a> to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://philipjohnsonglasshouse.org/history/bios/whitney/chapter1/">http://philipjohnsonglasshouse.org/history/bios/whitney/chapter1/</a></li></ul> <p>When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. </p><p>This message was posted before February 2018. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_145#Disable_messages_left_by_InternetArchiveBot" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 145">After February 2018</a>, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by <b><span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span></b>. 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This message is updated dynamically through the template <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Source_check" title="Template:Source check">source check</a>}}</code> <small>(last update: 5 June 2024)</small>. </p> <ul><li>If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://iabot.wmcloud.org/index.php?page=reportfalsepositive">this tool</a>.</li> <li>If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://iabot.wmcloud.org/index.php?page=manageurlsingle">this tool</a>.</li></ul> <p>Cheers.—<a href="/wiki/User:InternetArchiveBot" title="User:InternetArchiveBot"><b><span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span></b></a> <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:InternetArchiveBot" title="User talk:InternetArchiveBot">Report bug</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-InternetArchiveBot-2017-12-05T16:15:00.000Z-External_links_modified" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:15, 5 December 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-InternetArchiveBot-2017-12-05T16:15:00.000Z-External_links_modified"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-InternetArchiveBot-2017-12-05T16:15:00.000Z-External_links_modified"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="POV_issue" data-mw-thread-id="h-POV_issue-2019-02-12T00:18:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-POV_issue-2019-02-12T00:18:00.000Z"></span>POV issue<span data-mw-comment-end="h-POV_issue-2019-02-12T00:18:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: POV issue"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T00:18:00.000Z-POV_issue"></span>Tagging the section titled "Controversy over early political views." The title itself reads like an apologia, as does the section itself. I'll be working on it but meanwhile I think it needs to be tagged. <a href="/wiki/User:Coretheapple" title="User:Coretheapple">Coretheapple</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Coretheapple" title="User talk:Coretheapple">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T00:18:00.000Z-POV_issue" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:18, 12 February 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T00:18:00.000Z-POV_issue"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T00:18:00.000Z-POV_issue"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z-POV_issue"></span>I've made some <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOLD">WP:BOLD</a> changes. I have to say that I was pretty shocked by some of what I saw in that section, which was little more than a whitewash, with some text (such as re Shirer) that was simply not true and/or not supported by the sources. I've removed the tag. <a href="/wiki/User:Coretheapple" title="User:Coretheapple">Coretheapple</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Coretheapple" title="User talk:Coretheapple">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z-POV_issue" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:00, 12 February 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z-POV_issue"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z-POV_issue"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SiefkinDR-2021-06-25T15:21:00.000Z-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z"></span>There are serious violations of neutrality here, and the attacks on Johnson are way over the top. One editor now claims that he was an "unpaid spy for the Nazi regime." How could he be a spy if he proclaimed his political views to everyone? The attacks on Johnson are declared to be "thoroughly documented,", citing a book by the author of another attack on Johnson. The linking Johnson with George Floyd is really beyond ridiculous. I'm not defending Johnson'views; Johnson himself admitted that he was stupid and mistaken. But Wikipedia is not a place for diatribes like this. Please follow the neutrality rules. <a href="/wiki/User:SiefkinDR" title="User:SiefkinDR">SiefkinDR</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SiefkinDR" title="User talk:SiefkinDR">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-SiefkinDR-2021-06-25T15:21:00.000Z-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:21, 25 June 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SiefkinDR-2021-06-25T15:21:00.000Z-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SiefkinDR-2021-06-25T15:21:00.000Z-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SiefkinDR-2021-07-15T07:26:00.000Z-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z"></span>The charge that Johnson "innovated white supremacy in architecture". during his time as a curator at the Museum of Modern Art is not supported here by any examples or evidence. Unless it's backed up with facts, it should be left out.<a href="/wiki/User:SiefkinDR" title="User:SiefkinDR">SiefkinDR</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SiefkinDR" title="User talk:SiefkinDR">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-SiefkinDR-2021-07-15T07:26:00.000Z-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:26, 15 July 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SiefkinDR-2021-07-15T07:26:00.000Z-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SiefkinDR-2021-07-15T07:26:00.000Z-Coretheapple-2019-02-12T02:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Categories" data-mw-thread-id="h-Categories-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Categories-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z"></span>Categories<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Categories-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Categories"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lockley-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z-Categories"></span>Hi <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Modernist" title="User:Modernist">Modernist</a>:</span> and <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Hmains" title="User:Hmains">Hmains</a>:</span> and <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:SiefkinDR" title="User:SiefkinDR">SiefkinDR</a>:</span> -- I wonder if we could discuss the categories just added and removed -- they are <a href="/wiki/Category:American_fascists" title="Category:American fascists">Category:American fascists</a>, <a href="/wiki/Category:Antisemitism_in_the_United_States" title="Category:Antisemitism in the United States">Category:Antisemitism in the United States</a>, and <a href="/w/index.php?title=Category:American_propagandists&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Category:American propagandists (page does not exist)">Category:American propagandists</a>, all of which relate to this larger question of how to represent Johnson's involvement with American fascists. IMO all three are accurate, and the first one seems richly deserved. The article as it stands is full of POV language and minor factual errors tending to explain away Johnson's political interests -- example, the words "brief venture into journalism and politics" to describe a 7-year period in which this was Johnson's sole interest. Let's put our heads together and find a reasonable way forward, yeah? --<a href="/wiki/User:Lockley" title="User:Lockley">Lockley</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lockley" title="User talk:Lockley">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Lockley-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z-Categories" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lockley-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z-Categories"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lockley-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z-Categories"></span> </p> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Modernist-2021-08-02T21:44:00.000Z-Lockley-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z"></span>In my opinion those categories are really not needed. Johnson denounced his insane behavior in his early days....As a working architect he became a key figure in the modernist and post-modernist architectural world. His working accomplishments and mature works are the reason he even has this article that we are commenting on. Johnson's stupid past; by his own admission does not characterize his place in our world. The section <i>Controversy over political activities</i> covers the issue; the categories are not required or necessary...<a href="/wiki/User:Modernist" title="User:Modernist">Modernist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Modernist" title="User talk:Modernist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Modernist-2021-08-02T21:44:00.000Z-Lockley-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:44, 2 August 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Modernist-2021-08-02T21:44:00.000Z-Lockley-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Modernist-2021-08-02T21:44:00.000Z-Lockley-2021-08-02T19:47:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Non-arbitrary_break" data-mw-thread-id="h-Non-arbitrary_break-Categories-2022-03-09T14:51:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Non-arbitrary_break-Categories-2022-03-09T14:51:00.000Z"></span>Non-arbitrary break<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Non-arbitrary_break-Categories-2022-03-09T14:51:00.000Z"></span></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Non-arbitrary break"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T14:51:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Lockley" title="User:Lockley">Lockley</a>:</span> Agreed. <ol><li>The defense of Johnson Re: his role in MoMA is OR.</li> <li>Referring to <a href="/wiki/Noam_Cohen" title="Noam Cohen">Noam Cohen</a> as a "critic" paints his criticism in a skeptical light (he's a journalist - let's call him that).</li> <li>Referring to the Johnson Study Group as "40 architects... <i>calling themselves</i> the Johnson Study Group" (emphasis mine) casts them as unprofessional.</li></ol></dd> <dd>I've made an <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philip_Johnson&diff=1075982362&oldid=1075979278&diffmode=source">edit</a> to address these, along with some style and readability issues, but it was <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philip_Johnson&diff=1075995189&oldid=1075982362">reverted</a>. I've <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Modernist#Philip_Johnson" title="User talk:Modernist">discussed this with Modernist</a>, and will proceed to restore the changes. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:François Robere (page does not exist)">François Robere</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere" title="User talk:François Robere">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T14:51:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:51, 9 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T14:51:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T14:51:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T17:01:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:SiefkinDR" title="User:SiefkinDR">SiefkinDR</a>:</span> As noted above, <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philip_Johnson&diff=1076147740&oldid=1076133469&diffmode=source">this</a> is OR. The first ref is barely verifiable (no link, author or publication date), self-referential (points back to Wikipedia <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.moma.org/artists/2927">[1]</a>), and makes no mention of the criticisms in the context of which it is cited; and the second doesn't even mention Johnson. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:François Robere (page does not exist)">François Robere</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere" title="User talk:François Robere">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T17:01:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T17:01:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T17:01:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T18:18:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Modernist" title="User:Modernist">Modernist</a>:</span> <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philip_Johnson&curid=53421&diff=1076159222&oldid=1076147740&diffmode=source">This</a> doesn't resolve the problem of OR, so I made a few edits that do, starting with <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philip_Johnson&diff=1076163448&oldid=1076159222&diffmode=source">this one</a>. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:François Robere (page does not exist)">François Robere</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere" title="User talk:François Robere">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T18:18:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:18, 9 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T18:18:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T18:18:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Modernist-2022-03-09T19:13:00.000Z-François_Robere-2022-03-09T18:18:00.000Z"></span>Stop this edit warring! At this time you have no consensus re your recent edits...<a href="/wiki/User:Modernist" title="User:Modernist">Modernist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Modernist" title="User talk:Modernist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Modernist-2022-03-09T19:13:00.000Z-François_Robere-2022-03-09T18:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:13, 9 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Modernist-2022-03-09T19:13:00.000Z-François_Robere-2022-03-09T18:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Modernist-2022-03-09T19:13:00.000Z-François_Robere-2022-03-09T18:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T19:51:00.000Z-Modernist-2022-03-09T19:13:00.000Z"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Modernist" title="User:Modernist">Modernist</a>:</span> I'm not edit warring, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT">WP:IDONTLIKEIT</a> is not a justification. Do you have anything to say that addresses the issue of OR as repeatedly explained here, on your TP, and in edit summaries? Also, your reversal re-introduced an erroneously-attributed quote. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:François Robere (page does not exist)">François Robere</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere" title="User talk:François Robere">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T19:51:00.000Z-Modernist-2022-03-09T19:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:51, 9 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T19:51:00.000Z-Modernist-2022-03-09T19:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T19:51:00.000Z-Modernist-2022-03-09T19:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></li></ul></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Modernist-2022-03-09T20:03:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span>Read this: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:STICK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:STICK">WP:STICK</a>, you have no consensus...<a href="/wiki/User:Modernist" title="User:Modernist">Modernist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Modernist" title="User talk:Modernist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Modernist-2022-03-09T20:03:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:03, 9 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Modernist-2022-03-09T20:03:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Modernist-2022-03-09T20:03:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span></li></ul> <ul><li><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-09T21:09:00.000Z-Modernist-2022-03-09T20:03:00.000Z"></span>Agree with Modernist, there is no consensus for the changes made above. Edit warring needs to stop. and neutrality rules need to be followed. Thanks for your understanding.<a href="/wiki/User:SiefkinDR" title="User:SiefkinDR">SiefkinDR</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SiefkinDR" title="User talk:SiefkinDR">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-09T21:09:00.000Z-Modernist-2022-03-09T20:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:09, 9 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-09T21:09:00.000Z-Modernist-2022-03-09T20:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-09T21:09:00.000Z-Modernist-2022-03-09T20:03:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li></ul> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T21:16:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span>I've asked for community input at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Philip_Johnson's_legacy" title="Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard">Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Philip Johnson's legacy</a>. Cheers. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:François Robere (page does not exist)">François Robere</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere" title="User talk:François Robere">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T21:16:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:16, 9 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T21:16:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-François_Robere-2022-03-09T21:16:00.000Z-Non-arbitrary_break"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Mies_Van_der_Rohe_and_fascism" data-mw-thread-id="h-Mies_Van_der_Rohe_and_fascism-Categories-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Mies_Van_der_Rohe_and_fascism-Categories-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z"></span>Mies Van der Rohe and fascism<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Mies_Van_der_Rohe_and_fascism-Categories-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z"></span></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: Mies Van der Rohe and fascism"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z-Mies_Van_der_Rohe_and_fascism"></span>One editor seems to be questioning whether <a href="/wiki/Mies_Van_der_Rohe" class="mw-redirect" title="Mies Van der Rohe">Mies Van der Rohe</a>, Johnson's business partner, was really anti-fascist. I think that's not very flattering to Mies Van Der Rohe. He lived in Nazi Germany, and I think he knew what fascism was, and if Johnson had been a fascist he would not have been his business partner. It's not proof, but it's logic. Respectfully, <a href="/wiki/User:SiefkinDR" title="User:SiefkinDR">SiefkinDR</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SiefkinDR" title="User talk:SiefkinDR">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z-Mies_Van_der_Rohe_and_fascism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:23, 11 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z-Mies_Van_der_Rohe_and_fascism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z-Mies_Van_der_Rohe_and_fascism"></span> </p> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-11T12:33:00.000Z-SiefkinDR-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z"></span>What it is is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>. None of the sources cited, including the one added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Herrikez&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Herrikez (page does not exist)">Herrikez</a>, calls VDR "anti-fascist". One of the sources doesn't mention VDR, one of the sources doesn't mention Johnson, and the only one that mentions both states that VDR had "an intense love-hate relationship with [Johnson]". Half this paragraph is OR. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:François Robere (page does not exist)">François Robere</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere" title="User talk:François Robere">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-François_Robere-2022-03-11T12:33:00.000Z-SiefkinDR-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:33, 11 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-11T12:33:00.000Z-SiefkinDR-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-François_Robere-2022-03-11T12:33:00.000Z-SiefkinDR-2022-03-11T11:23:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:François Robere (page does not exist)"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Herrikez-2022-03-11T13:15:00.000Z-François_Robere-2022-03-11T12:33:00.000Z"></span>François Robere</a> <a href="/wiki/User:SiefkinDR" title="User:SiefkinDR">SiefkinDR</a> I put those references there because the notion that Mies Van der Rohe was an anti-fascist is debatable at best:</dd></dl></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1244412712">.mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 32px}.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;margin-top:0}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{padding-left:1.6em}}</style><blockquote class="templatequote"><p>"Starved of work, Mies tried to ingratiate himself with this new, powerful and rich state patron, signing a motion of support for Hitler in the August 1934 referendum and joining Goebbels's Reichskultur-kammer, a progressive alternative to Rosenberg's ministry, which asked for "fresh blood" and new forms to give "expression to this age". Mies was shortlisted to build the state's new Reichsbank, with a fiercely modern, abstract design; and Goebbels even pressed him to design the Deutsches Volk Deutsches Arbeit exhibition." <br/>"Mies seemed to dislike the Nazis more for their poor taste and their starving him of work than for their politics."</p><div class="templatequotecite">— <cite><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2002/nov/30/architecture.artsfeatures">The Guardian</a></cite></div></blockquote> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote"><p>"12. Many at the Bauhaus were disillusioned when they learned that Mies had been the only one to sign a motion of support for Hitler and National Socialism in 1934."</p><div class="templatequotecite">— <cite><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.archdaily.com/784297/20-things-you-didnt-know-about-mies-van-der-rohe">Archdaily</a></cite></div></blockquote> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Of course, after they kicked him out, I am sure he was against the regime, I just do not see any indication that it was for ideological reasons <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Herrikez&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Herrikez (page does not exist)">Herrikez</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Herrikez" title="User talk:Herrikez">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Herrikez-2022-03-11T13:15:00.000Z-François_Robere-2022-03-11T12:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:15, 11 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Herrikez-2022-03-11T13:15:00.000Z-François_Robere-2022-03-11T12:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Herrikez-2022-03-11T13:15:00.000Z-François_Robere-2022-03-11T12:33:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-13T16:57:00.000Z-Herrikez-2022-03-11T13:15:00.000Z"></span>Most Germans supported Hitler in 1934, as the elections showed, because of the utter economic and political chaos and because they didn't know what he was all about. He wasn't pro-Hitler when they closed the Bauhaus and forced him to leave. He certainly wasn't pro-Hitler in the United States, and he certainly wasn't a fascist. See the article on Mies in Wikipedia.<a href="/wiki/User:SiefkinDR" title="User:SiefkinDR">SiefkinDR</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SiefkinDR" title="User talk:SiefkinDR">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-13T16:57:00.000Z-Herrikez-2022-03-11T13:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:57, 13 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-13T16:57:00.000Z-Herrikez-2022-03-11T13:15:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-13T16:57:00.000Z-Herrikez-2022-03-11T13:15:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-13T18:20:00.000Z-SiefkinDR-2022-03-13T16:57:00.000Z"></span>No one says he was, but was he "anti-fascist"? And if he was, does it have anything to do with Johnson collaborating with him? You need sources if you want to say either. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:François Robere (page does not exist)">François Robere</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere" title="User talk:François Robere">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-François_Robere-2022-03-13T18:20:00.000Z-SiefkinDR-2022-03-13T16:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:20, 13 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-13T18:20:00.000Z-SiefkinDR-2022-03-13T16:57:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-François_Robere-2022-03-13T18:20:00.000Z-SiefkinDR-2022-03-13T16:57:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead" data-mw-thread-id="h-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead-2022-03-19T15:42:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead-2022-03-19T15:42:00.000Z"></span>Revision needed of 4th paragraph of lead<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead-2022-03-19T15:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Revision needed of 4th paragraph of lead"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-19T15:42:00.000Z-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead"></span>The fourth paragraph of the lead needs to be revised to be more specific about by his involvement, since he was involved with two very different groups, followers of Huey Long and those of Father Coughlin. It also needs to state exactly what he did for those movements. It's too vague. Cordially, <a href="/wiki/User:SiefkinDR" title="User:SiefkinDR">SiefkinDR</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SiefkinDR" title="User talk:SiefkinDR">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-19T15:42:00.000Z-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:42, 19 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-19T15:42:00.000Z-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SiefkinDR-2022-03-19T15:42:00.000Z-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-20T15:05:00.000Z-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead"></span>Summary and excerpts from Mark Lamster, <i>The Man in the Glass House</i>, 2018. Ch. 6-7: </p> <ul><li>Johnson quits his job in 1934 to launch a political movement with Alan Blackburn (uniforms and flag included), which he finances as they travel across the country to build a following.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Lawrence_Dennis" title="Lawrence Dennis">Lawrence Dennis</a>, an overtly racist and anti-Semitic author, becomes "Johnson’s unlikely intellectual guru and political <a href="/wiki/Svengali" title="Svengali">Svengali</a>".</li> <li>Gets criticized in newspapers of the day; some of his colleagues fear that his involvement might harm <a href="/wiki/Museum_of_Modern_Art" title="Museum of Modern Art">the museum</a>.</li> <li>Following <a href="/wiki/Huey_Long" title="Huey Long">Huey Long</a>, the corrupt "kingpin" governor of Louisiana: "Secretly, Johnson had grander ambitions. He was not interested in just being a member of Long’s “brain trust.” When interviewed in 1942, Johnson’s former secretary Ruth Merrill told the FBI that Johnson believed “the fate of the country” rested on his shoulders, and that “he wanted to be the ‘Hitler’ in the United States.” His desire to join Long as an adviser was a means to that end. “By joining with Huey Long he could eventually depose Huey Long from control of the country and gain control of it for himself,” Merrill told the FBI. Whether that meant assassination or a bloodless coup was unstated."</li> <li>Runs for the Ohio legislature; after being rebuffed by the GOP he wins the Democratic primary, but quits.</li> <li>Allies with <a href="/wiki/Charles_Coughlin" title="Charles Coughlin">Charles Coughlin</a>, successful populist preacher and radio broadcaster.</li> <li>Spends thousands of dollars ("something close to 40 percent of his annual income") on one of Coughlin's politicians.</li> <li>Designs a 50 ft, two stories tall stage for Coughlin's anti-Roosevelt address in front of a crowd of tens of thousands.</li> <li>Buys airtime and starts a radio show, and an associated youth movement, with popular messaging and anti-Semitic subtext: "Johnson and Blackburn’s party, an alt-right <i><a href="/wiki/Avant_la_lettre" class="mw-redirect" title="Avant la lettre">avant la lettre</a></i>, was composed of hard-core reactionaries, pro-Nazi German-American Bundists, Klansmen, and members of the Black Legion, an Ohio-based secret society that took the Klan as its model... Johnson tried to convert this group into his own version of the <a href="/wiki/Sturmabteilung" title="Sturmabteilung">SA</a>, the brown-shirted paramilitaries he knew from the streets of Berlin. Borrowing Nazi intimidation tactics, he had his group march on the Communist party headquarters in Toledo. The Communists responded by cutting the radio station’s power line during one of Johnson and Blackburn’s programs."</li> <li>In 1937 goes on vacation in Germany and "befriends" Nazi ideologue <a href="/wiki/Werner_Sombart" title="Werner Sombart">Werner Sombart</a> at a party for Nazi economist <a href="/wiki/Hjalmar_Schacht" title="Hjalmar Schacht">Hjalmar Schacht</a>.</li> <li>Goes to London, tries to meet with founder of the British Union of Fascists, <a href="/wiki/Oswald_Mosley" title="Oswald Mosley">Oswald Mosley</a>.</li> <li>Reconnects with Dennis, then with German diplomat Ulrich Freiherr von Gienanth, from whom he wants a pass to <a href="/wiki/Nuremberg_rallies" title="Nuremberg rallies">events in Nuremberg</a>.</li> <li>Writes about "race suicide" for "pro-fascist journal <i>The Examiner</i>".</li> <li>Participates in a program run by the "Vereinigung Carl Schurz, a private organization that disseminated Nazi propaganda to foreigners."</li> <li>Connects with Nazi propagandists K. O. Bertling and <a href="/wiki/Hans-Heinrich_Dieckhoff" title="Hans-Heinrich Dieckhoff">Hans-Heinrich Dieckhoff</a>, German ambassador to the US.</li> <li>Returns to the US, has lunches with the German embassy's political and press attaché, Heribert von Strempel.</li> <li>Johnson would claim to the FBI that his meetings were purely social-intellectual, but "a more plausible scenario is that Johnson was exchanging information on the activities, politics, and membership of American fascist circles, and discussing the means by which the Germans might disseminate their propaganda. According to records captured after the war, the Nazi diplomats were specifically interested in obtaining mailing lists and names of individuals who might be sympathetic to their cause. Johnson, who had built a network of nationalist supporters in both Ohio and New York, was in a position to deliver precisely that type of material. Indeed, Johnson had been keeping confidential lists of would-be supporters since April 1934, when he instructed his private secretary, Ruth Merrill, to take names at the first fascist gathering at the duplex apartment he shared in New York with his sister."</li> <li>In 1939 gets acquainted with Viola Heise Bodenschatz, well-connected German-American author of pro-German pamphlets, asking for advice on "distribution". They would later travel to Germany together.</li> <li>Meets Friedrich Auhagen, an intended "freelance propaganda agent" paid by the Nazis. Auhagen, Johnson and others then found the "American Fellowship Forum" - a propaganda organization - in New York, with Dennis as a keynote speaker at the inaugural event. The organization publishes a journal, <i>Today's Challenge</i>, the first issue of which ends with <a href="/wiki/George_Sylvester_Viereck" title="George Sylvester Viereck">George Sylvester Viereck</a>'s "Can the Jewish Problem Be Solved?".</li> <li>"The class of philosopher-fascists represented by Dennis and Johnson... made no direct claims to Nazism, but were clearly interested in transforming the American political system into a form that would be sympathetic to German National Socialism... They were also in a position to operate as a kind of think tank for the fascist cause, providing intellectual backbone to influential members of the isolationist movement—both those who merely wished to maintain America’s independent posture and those who sympathized with the Nazi state outright."</li> <li>"While Johnson cloaked himself behind a veneer of respectable intellectualism, he was not only aware of but actively supported the more brutal representatives of the fascist cause in America. Though he would later deny it, he admitted to the FBI that he attended several American Nazi Party rallies at Madison Square Garden... Johnson also became a financial benefactor of the Christian Mobilizers, a virulently anti-Semitic organization of street brawlers run by another Dennis protégé, <a href="/wiki/Joseph_E._McWilliams" class="mw-redirect" title="Joseph E. McWilliams">Joseph E. McWilliams</a>, a soap-box demagogue who built his following with attacks on Roosevelt, the “Jew Deal,” and the “Jewspapers” that supported it."</li> <li>Reconnects with Coughlin, who by now was printing the <i><a href="/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion" class="mw-redirect" title="Protocols of the Elders of Zion">Protocols of the Elders of Zion</a></i> and inspiring violent mobs, and offers himself as a "no-fee foreign correspondent for the coming summer of 1939".</li> <li>Meets "Paul Palmer, a fellow traveler in fascist circles who was the editor and proprietor of <i><a href="/wiki/The_American_Mercury" title="The American Mercury">The American Mercury</a></i>"; seeks to buy a share "to transform it into a mouthpiece for his own brand of fascist propaganda".</li> <li>Writes a favorable review of <i><a href="/wiki/Mein_Kampf" title="Mein Kampf">Mein Kampf</a></i> for the <i>Examiner </i>.</li> <li>Goes to Germany; meets with Nazi propagandists Richard Sallet and Werner Assendorf, and attends <a href="/wiki/Otto_Dietrich" title="Otto Dietrich">Otto Dietrich</a>'s press conferences.</li> <li>While in Czechoslovakia he meets a past acquaintance: a Jewish architect named <a href="/wiki/Otto_Eisler" title="Otto Eisler">Otto Eisler</a>, who was just arrested by the Gestapo. Despite his connections with Nazi authorities, he makes no attempt to help except asking a mutual friend, <a href="/wiki/Jacobus_Oud" class="mw-redirect" title="Jacobus Oud">Jacobus Oud</a>, if a visa can be arranged. Decades later he would describe the meeting as "one of the worst moments", but "even after the war, [he]made no effort to learn of Eisler’s harrowing story of escape to Norway, capture... and survival of Auschwitz."</li> <li>"There was nothing illegal about Johnson speaking privately with Nazi officials in 1939. Those conversations would have become unlawful only had Johnson accepted financial remuneration from the German government—an act that would have made him an unregistered agent of a foreign power. It was on this charge that his friends Fritz Auhagen, Viola Bodenschatz, and Lawrence Dennis would be arrested in the wake of the Pearl Harbor attacks and America’s entry into the war. But for Johnson money was never an issue: he was insulated by his own wealth. Indeed, he was the ideal vehicle for the Nazis, a man willing and able to finance their interests out of his own pocket."</li></ul> <p><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:François Robere (page does not exist)">François Robere</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fran%C3%A7ois_Robere" title="User talk:François Robere">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-François_Robere-2022-03-20T15:05:00.000Z-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:05, 20 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-François_Robere-2022-03-20T15:05:00.000Z-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-François_Robere-2022-03-20T15:05:00.000Z-Revision_needed_of_4th_paragraph_of_lead"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Use_of_boldface" data-mw-thread-id="h-Use_of_boldface-20230209202700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Use_of_boldface-20230209202700"></span>Use of boldface<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Use_of_boldface-20230209202700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Use of boldface"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Biogeographist-20230209202700-Use_of_boldface"></span>Boldface style is used in this article to emphasize the names of Johnson's buildings, which is against Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/MOS:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:BOLD">MOS:BOLD</a> and <a href="/wiki/MOS:NOBOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NOBOLD">MOS:NOBOLD</a> guidelines. However, I can see how the use of boldface for that purpose is helpful for the reader, so I let it be as a reasonable exception to the MOS guidelines. However, <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1138459429" title="Special:Diff/1138459429">I removed boldface style from the image captions</a> since <em>that</em> use of boldface was not so helpful. All but one (if I counted correctly) of the images are Johnson's buildings, so there is no good reason for boldface in the captions, and boldface was used irregularly in the captions anyway. So, I recommend sticking to the MOS guidelines of no boldface in the image captions. <a href="/wiki/User:Biogeographist" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Biogeographist">Biogeographist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Biogeographist" title="User talk:Biogeographist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-Biogeographist-20230209202700-Use_of_boldface" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:27, 9 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Biogeographist-20230209202700-Use_of_boldface"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Biogeographist-20230209202700-Use_of_boldface"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ID'S_Center,_Minneapolis,_MN" data-mw-thread-id="h-ID'S_Center,_Minneapolis,_MN-20231020224900"><span id="ID.27S_Center.2C_Minneapolis.2C_MN"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ID'S_Center,_Minneapolis,_MN-20231020224900"></span>ID'S Center, Minneapolis, MN<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ID'S_Center,_Minneapolis,_MN-20231020224900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: ID'S Center, Minneapolis, MN"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601:447:C802:7560:C42B:736D:3100:A075-20231020224900-ID'S_Center,_Minneapolis,_MN"></span>The IDS Center is one of the most striking examples of Johnson's work. The Crystal Court and the 51-story octagonal "shape shifting" façade are the Centerpiece of the city. I am stunned that there is no mention of it in this article. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601:447:C802:7560:C42B:736D:3100:A075" title="Special:Contributions/2601:447:C802:7560:C42B:736D:3100:A075">2601:447:C802:7560:C42B:736D:3100:A075</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2601:447:C802:7560:C42B:736D:3100:A075&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2601:447:C802:7560:C42B:736D:3100:A075 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Johnson#c-2601:447:C802:7560:C42B:736D:3100:A075-20231020224900-ID'S_Center,_Minneapolis,_MN" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601:447:C802:7560:C42B:736D:3100:A075-20231020224900-ID'S_Center,_Minneapolis,_MN"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601:447:C802:7560:C42B:736D:3100:A075-20231020224900-ID'S_Center,_Minneapolis,_MN"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&oldid=1252168313">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philip_Johnson&oldid=1252168313</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_level-4_vital_articles" title="Category:C-Class level-4 vital articles">C-Class level-4 vital articles</a></li><li><a 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