Syria, Egypt and Middle East unrest - Wednesday 4 January | World news

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href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/5/6/1304678523900/Middle_East_Live.gif" alt="Middle East live blog" width="620" height="140" class="image-badge"/> </a> </h1> </div> <ul id="blog-nav-top" class="blog-navigation"> <li class="blog-previous"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jan/03/syria-egypt-middle-east-unrest-live-updates">Previous</a> </li> <li class="blog-home"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live" title="">Blog home</a> </li> </ul> <div id="main-article-info"> <h1>Syria, Egypt and Middle East unrest - Wednesday 4 January</h1> <p id="stand-first" class="stand-first-alone">• Arab League observers witness sniper fire in Hama<br/>• Muslim Brotherhood could win outright majority in Egypt<br/>• Tensions build between Iran and the US<br/><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jan/04/syria-egypt-middle-east-unrest-live-updates?commentpage=all#start-of-comments#block-21"><br/>• Read the latest summary</a></p> </div> <ul id="content-actions" class="share-links"> <li class="share-links"> <ul> <li class="full-line tweet tweet_button"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://twitter.com/share" class="twitter-share-button" data-url="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://gu.com/p/34ec6/tw" data-via="guardian" data-counturl="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jan/04/syria-egypt-middle-east-unrest-live-updates" data-related="matthew_weaver" data-text="Syria, Egypt and Middle East unrest - Wednesday 4 January">Tweet this</a> </li> <li class="third-party-tool full-line facebook"> <iframe 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class="comment-count-val">…</span>)</a> </li> </ul> </div> <div id="content"> <div id="article-wrapper"> <div id="main-content-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/12/30/1325236586770/Arab-League-monitors-007.jpg" width="460" height="276" alt="Arab League monitors"/> <div class="caption">Members of the Arab League mission to Syria on a visit to Deraa. Photograph: Sana/Reuters</div> </div> <div id="article-body-blocks">  <span class="inline"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/04/09/recap1.gif" alt="Live blog: recap" width="40" height="40"/> </a> </span> <p id="block-21"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-21" class="block-link" title="Link to update 21">5.48pm:</a></span> Here is a summary of the day's main developments:</p><h2><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/syria" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Syria">Syria</a></h2><p>• <strong>The Obama administration has hinted that it is prepared to consider tougher measures against Syria if the Arab League mission continues to fail.</strong> "We have made clear that if the Arab League initiative is not implemented, the international community will have to consider new measures to compel a halt to the regime's violence against its own citizens," spokesman Jay Carney said. Syria responded by accusing the US of "gross interference" in the work of the Arab League.</p><p>• <strong>Thirteen people have been killed so far in Syria today amid continuing frustration at the Arab League's failure to stop the violence, according to activists. </strong>Ten of today's victims died in Homs where league monitors were due to inspect today, the Local Co-ordination Committees said. The casualty figures cannot be independently verified. An Arab League meeting on the future of the mission has been postponed until Sunday.</p><p>• <strong><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/iran" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Iran">Iran</a> has demanded the release of seven Iranians who it claims were kidnapped by an armed group in Syria</strong>. An unknown anti-Shia group has claimed responsibility, according to AFP. </p><p>• <strong>Activists claim sniper fire from government buildings prevented Arab League observers from visiting a restive neighbourhood in Hama</strong>. Residents tried to persuade the observers to visit the Hamidiya area but they refused to enter on safety grounds, according to opposition activists.</p><h2><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/egypt" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Egypt">Egypt</a></h2><p>• <strong>People have been voting on the second day of the third and final phase of elections for Egypt's lower house, the people's assembly, with the Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice party on course for an outright majority, according to some analysts</strong>. <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://en.aswatmasriya.com/news/view.aspx?id=aacb0a16-3fc8-486b-963a-b1400c9a1a9c">Aswat Masriya said turnout was low in the morning but increased slightly in the afternoon</a>. The Brotherhood said turnout on Tuesday, the first day of phase three, was 35%. In the first and second phases (each over two days) the turnout was 52% and 67% respectively. </p><p>• <strong>The Egyptian justice minister has reportedly requested information on 73 registered civil society organisations as part of the attorney general's investigations into the foreign funding of civil society organisations despite an assurance given to the US that it would make it easier for NGOs to operate in the country.</strong> After raids on 10 NGOs on Thursday, including US government-funded groups, the head of the armed forces, Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, assured US defence secretary Leon Panetta that the raids would stop and the operating environment would be made less hostile.</p><p>• <strong> The ousted dictator, <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/hosni-mubarak" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Hosni Mubarak">Hosni Mubarak</a>, his security chief and six top police officers authorised the use of live ammunition and a shoot-to-kill policy against peaceful protesters, a court heard today.</strong> Chief prosecutor Mustafa Suleiman said the defendants were the "actual instigators" of the killing of more than 800 protesters during last year's popular uprising that brought down the Mubarak regime. The trial continues. Meanwhile the April 6 Youth Movement said four of its members were beaten by police after being arrested for putting up posters calling for a demonstration on 25 January, the first anniversary of the uprising against Mubarak. One of the protesters was later released while the others were remanded in custody.</p><h2><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/libya" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Libya">Libya</a></h2><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/04/us-libya-idUSTRE80301120120104">The chairman of the National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, has warned that Libya risks sliding into civil war unless it brings rival militias under control.</a> Jalil was speaking in response to a gun battle between militias in one of Tripoli's busiest streets which killed four fighters. "If there's no security, there will be no law, no development and no elections," he said. "People are taking the law into their own hands." </p><h2><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/bahrain" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Bahrain">Bahrain</a></h2><p>• <strong> Activists said that Bahraini riot police fired rubber bullets and teargas at peaceful protesters in Sitra.</strong> They were demonstrating over the death of a 15-year-old boy, Sayed Hashim Sayed Saeed, who died last week after he was shot in the face with a teargas cannister in Sitra, according to the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights. Protesters at today's demonstration held up a banner condemning Barack Obama because of the appointment of the controversial former Miami police chief John Timoney to help reform Bahrain's police force.</p><p>• <strong>The Bahraini government has increased its crackdown on pro-democracy campaigners despite a pledge to usher in reform, according to Middle East analysts and members of the International Crisis Group</strong>. Toby Jones and Ala'a Shehabi write in Foreign Policy magazine that the government "has ignored calls for an end to its assault on pro-democracy forces, and in the last few weeks has actually intensified its crackdown. Security forces have once again laid siege to the country's many poor villages, home to most of its Shia majority as well as the country's pro-democracy movement."</p><h2>Yemen</h2><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/01/04/yemen-saleh-usa-idINDEE8030AJ20120104">President Ali Abdullah Saleh will not travel to the United States, a senior aide said, reversing a pledge by the leader who has withstood nearly a year of protests and military challenges from rivals seeking to topple him.</a> Saleh announced he would visit the United States last month, hours after forces loyal to him killed protesters demanding he face trial for killings during an uprising aimed at ending his 33-year rule. Abdu al-Janadi, a senior figure in Saleh's political party and Yemen's deputy information minister, told reporters members of Saleh's party asked him to remain and help ensure that the deputy to whom Saleh has formally transferred power succeeds him in an election set for February.</p><p id="block-20"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-20" class="block-link" title="Link to update 20">5.29pm:</a></span> Syria's state news agency, Sana, reports a pro-Assad demonstration in Sabaa Bahrat Square in Damascus today. <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ccQNxvpzBM">TV footage has been uploaded onto YouTube</a>.</p><span class="inline embed embed-media"> <iframe width="460" height="342" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315if_/http://www.youtube.com/embed/9ccQNxvpzBM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> </span><p>Sana says the demonstration was "in support of the comprehensive reform programme and the independent national decision, and in rejection of foreign interference attempts in Syria's internal affairs".</p><p id="block-19"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-19" class="block-link" title="Link to update 19">4.43pm:</a></span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/04/world/meast/syria-unrest/index.html">In an interview with CNN</a>, the leader of the Free Syrian Army has reiterated his warning that the group is planning to escalate attacks against the Assad regime. </p><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://in.news.yahoo.com/head-syria-rebels-plans-escalate-attacks-130028816.html">In an interview with Reuters on Tuesday</a>, Colonel Riad al-Assad said that if no progress came out of the visit by Arab League monitors, the FSA would take "a decision which will surprise the regime and the whole world". He seems to have lost patience with the observers already, telling CNN:</p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>We don't believe in the Arab League mission in Syria. I think they are covering the regime and blocking any international intervention to help the Syrian people ...</p><p>We will keep fighting until we take the regime down. And this week, the world will see huge operations all over the country and against all the regime's vital interests and army locations ...</p><p>We are preparing for big operations and have no faith in Arab League monitors or their useless mission.</p></blockquote> <span class="inline"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/12/20/03-8-11_mubarakcourt.jpg" alt="Year in review: Mubarak attends court" width="140" height="130"/> </a> </span> <p id="block-18"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-18" class="block-link" title="Link to update 18">3.48pm:</a></span> Hosni Mubarak, his security chief and six top police officers authorised the use of live ammunition and a shoot-to-kill policy against peaceful protesters, a court heard today (via AP). </p><p>Chief prosecutor Mustafa Suleiman said the defendants were the "actual instigators" of the killing of more than 800 protesters during last year's popular uprising that brought down the Mubarak regime.</p><p>Sueliman also complained that the interior minister and the country's intelligence agency had refused to help the prosecution in its inquiries. </p><p>He said the decision to use live ammunition was taken on 27 January last year, just before the "Friday of rage", the most violent day of the 18-day uprising that forced Mubarak to step down on 11 February. </p><p>The prosecution showed video of the violence on 28 January taken by TV stations. They showed police officers loading up their weapons with live ammunition and police and fire engine trucks chasing protesters and running them over. One video showed a police officer perched on top of a police car and killing a protester with a gunshot to the head.</p><p>Suleiman said: </p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>The defendants before you in the cage are the actual instigators and are the ones who gave police officers the order to shoot ...The protesters were peaceful, and it was the police that started firing on them.</p></blockquote><p>The prosecutor said he also had evidence that the regime used thugs against the protesters. </p><p>Mubarak and his seven co-defendants are facing charges of complicity in the killings and could face the death penalty if convicted.</p><p id="block-17"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-17" class="block-link" title="Link to update 17">3.24pm:</a></span> Egypt's influential April 6 Youth Movement has accused police officers of torturing four of its members who were arrested in Cairo on Tuesday for putting up posters urging people to demonstrate on 25 January, the first anniversary of the revolution that ousted Hosni Mubarak. </p><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/583991">Al-Masry al-Youm reports</a>: </p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>The activists were detained while hanging up posters that compared heroic images of soldiers after the 1973 war with <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/israel" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Israel">Israel</a> with pictures of troops beating women in Cairo during protests last month, according to Amr Ezz, an April 6 movement organiser.</p><p>A statement by the group said activists Sherif Mohamed, Mahmoud Zakariya, Mahmoud Hossam and Hassan Hafez were harshly beaten and insulted by the police officers who the group said also cursed last January's uprising.<br/>The statement added that the officers compelled the detainees to sign fabricated testimonies before referring them to prosecutors, who charged them with planning a coup and disturbing public order.</p></blockquote><p id="block-16"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-16" class="block-link" title="Link to update 16">3.02pm:</a></span> The Syrian opposition is in "disarray" after a pact between the two main groups fell apart, according to Middle East Online.</p><p>Last week the mainly exiled Syrian National Council <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/31/syria-opposition-plan-democratic-future">agreed to a draft deal with the National Coordination Committee, whose supporters are mainly based inside Syria.</a></p><p>The agreement, which appears to have been vetoed by the SNC membership, involved rejecting any foreign intervention in Syria. </p><p>The Middle East Institute quoted an SNC Facebook posting saying that the deal "conflicts with the SNC's political programme and with the demands of the Syrian revolution."</p><p>The link on the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=185805854851927&id=283186718381675">SNC Facebook page was not available at the time of writing</a>. </p><p>The Arabist notes that the SNC has been sending out mixed messages on the subject of foreign intervention in Syria.</p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>Despite the unity agreement, one of the Council's spokesmen/leaders, Samir Nashar, told the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jan/2/opposition-leader-syrians-foreign-military-action/">Washington Times</a> that "the majority of SNC leaders agree with international military intervention as early as possible" even though "they might not be brave enough to express it openly." Nashar's statements (at least those made to the Washington Times) are expressly targeted at garnering US support: he told the paper that intervention would present a "historic opportunity" for the U.S. in the region, and that most Syrians would welcome a replay of Nato's 2011 Libyan engagement. It is not clear if Nashar's statements have been approved by the rest of the Council.</p></blockquote><p id="block-15"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-15" class="block-link" title="Link to update 15">2.34pm:</a></span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://youtu.be/t3pBxLDZV-w">Video today from the southern town of Daeel provides</a> a detailed view of a visit by Arab League monitors.</p><p>At the start of the clip a boy tells the observers that his father has been shot, according to a translation by our colleague Mona Mahmood. </p><p>"Where's your father?" he is asked. "He's been shot," the boy replies. "Who by?" he is asked. "The security forces," he tells the men in orange bibs. </p><span class="inline embed embed-media"> <iframe width="460" height="283" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315if_/http://www.youtube.com/embed/t3pBxLDZV-w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> </span><p>Later the team of observers t hears from a woman who said her house had been looted. Another woman tells the observers that her 16-year-old son was arrested in November.</p><p>The observers are shown recording the details in their notebooks. They are interrupted by a man who claimed that army destroyed his house. </p><p>Towards the end of the clip the observers are taken to a house with bullet holes in the wall. "After you leave they will come for us," they are told by one resident.</p><p>At the end an older woman approaches the team pleading for help. "We are living in terror. It's a horrible situation. You have to help us," she says.</p><p id="block-14"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-14" class="block-link" title="Link to update 14">2.09pm:</a></span> US assistant secretary of state Jeffrey Feltman has been sent to Cairo for talks with the Arab League about the future of its monitoring mission to Syria.</p><p>Announcing the move state department spokeswoman Victorian Nuland <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2012/01/180088.htm">accused the Syrian authorities of blocking access to Arab League monitors in some areas</a>. </p><p>She said: </p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>They have been blocked in places. It's a question of whether their numbers are sufficient, whether they've been – had all of their demands and requirements met, including their demands to see some of these political prisoners, which we also understand have been denied. So again, we are not going to pass judgment on the Arab League mission in advance of the Arab League itself meeting and taking stock. We would simply note that the Assad regime is far from meeting the standards that it agreed to in these other categories, and that the violence continues. And most of the violence is at the hands of the regime.</p></blockquote><p><br/>Her comments the prompted Syria to accuse the US of interference.</p><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Jan-04/158827-syria-accuses-us-of-interfering-in-work-of-arab-league.ashx#ixzz1iV021kGG ">"The US... statements are a gross interference in the work of the Arab League, </a>and an unjustified attempt to internationalise" the issue of Syria, foreign ministry spokesman Jihad Makdesi said according to Lebanon's Daily Star.</p> <span class="inline"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/1/4/1325681672664/Rick-Santorum-002.jpg" alt="Rick Santorum" width="140" height="130"/> </a> </span> <p id="block-13"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-13" class="block-link" title="Link to update 13">1.58pm:</a></span> After his near-victory in the Iowa caucus last night, Rick Santorum (pictured) is suddenly looking like a contender in the race for the Republican nomination. Which means we should probably pay some attention to what he says - particularly on Iran, <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/history-of-rick-santorum-iowa">writes Lizzie Davies.</a></p><p>Ever a critic of <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06250/719619-109.stm">"Islamic fascist" regimes</a> – as he calls them – the 53-year-old former Senator recently yanked his hawkish rhetoric up a gear, declaring that, as president, he would bomb Iran's nuclear sites if the authorities did not open them up to inspections. He told the TV programme Meet the Press that he had a five-point plan, which began with the funding of the pro-democracy movement and went on to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RopLl_Kz95I">covert activity in the country to hinder the nuclear programme and ends in airstrikes.</a> </p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>I would be very direct that we would in fact and openly talk about this [covert activity in Iran]. Why? Because I want to make sure that Iran knows that when I say that Iran is not getting a nuclear weapon that we will actually effectuate policies that make that happen. This president has not done that. He has opposed tough sanctions on Iran, on their oil programme. Why? Because he's concerned about the economy and his re-election instead of the long-term national security interests of this country ... </p><p>I would say to every foreign scientist that's going into Iran to help them with their programme: you'll be treated as a foreign combatant like an al-Qaida member. And then finally I would be working openly with the state of Israel and I would be saying to Iran: either you open up those facilities, you begin to dismantle them and make them available to inspectors, or we will degrade those facilities through air strikes, and make it very public that we are doing that...Iran will not get a nuclear weapon under my watch.</p></blockquote><p>Obama's preference for diplomacy risked making the US look like a "paper tiger", he added.</p><p id="block-12"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-12" class="block-link" title="Link to update 12">1.37pm:</a></span> At the trial of Hosni Mubarak continues, some people who claim the ousted dictator is responsible for the death of their loved ones are selling flip flops with pictures of him and some of his cronies, including former interior minister Habib El-Adly. <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://yfrog.com/z/h7yleuij">Here is a picture</a>.</p><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/https://twitter.com/search/%2523Egypt">#Egypt</a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/https://twitter.com/search/%2523MubarakTrial">#MubarakTrial</a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/https://twitter.com/search/%2523LOL">#LOL</a> Mubarak & Adly slippers being sold only for 20LE. <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://t.co/hB0cXGMJ" title="http://yfrog.com/h7yleuij">yfrog.com/h7yleuij</a></p><p>— Asmaa Hassan (@asmaahassan85) <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/https://twitter.com/asmaahassan85/status/154516889215827968" data-datetime="2012-01-04T10:57:51+00:00">January 4, 2012</a></p></blockquote><p>They are being sold for approximately £0.21 in UK currency.</p><p id="block-11"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-11" class="block-link" title="Link to update 11">1.27pm:</a></span> A protest is being held in Sitra, in Bahrain, over the death of a 15-year-old boy, Sayed Hashim Sayed Saeed, <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.bahrainrights.org/en/node/4936">who died last week after he was shot in the face with a teargas cannister, according to activists</a>. The protesters are displaying an uncompromising message to Barack Obama, referring to the appointment of the controversial former Miami police chief John Timoney by the Bahraini government.</p> <span class="inline wide"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/1/4/1325683256195/timoney.jpg" alt="Bahrain protesters hold Obama and Timoney banner" width="460" height="282"/> </a> <span class="caption" style="width: 460px;"> Picture via Said Yousif on Twitter </span> </span> <p>Timoney, along with the former Metropolitan police assistant commissioner John Yates, who resigned in the wake of the phone-hacking scandal, was appointed to oversee reform of the Bahraini police force after reports of human rights abuses. But <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/03/bahrain-miami-model-policing">Timoney was himself accused of having used brutal methods to suppress protest in Miami, in his previous role</a>.</p> <span class="inline"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/04/09/recap1.gif" alt="Live blog: recap" width="40" height="40"/> </a> </span> <p id="block-10"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-10" class="block-link" title="Link to update 10">1.01pm:</a></span> Here is a summary of the main developments so far today:</p><h2>Syria</h2><p>• <strong>The Obama administration has hinted that it is prepared to consider tougher measures against Syria if the Arab League mission continues to fail.</strong> "We have made clear that if the Arab League initiative is not implemented, the international community will have to consider new measures to compel a halt to the regime's violence against its own citizens," spokesman Jay Carney said.</p><p>• <strong>Ten people have been killed so far in Syria today amid continuing frustration at the Arab League's failure to stop the violence. </strong>Seven of today's victims died in Homs where league monitors were due to inspect today. An Arab League meeting on the future of the mission has been postponed until Sunday.</p><p>• <strong>Iran has demanded the release of seven Iranians who it claims were kidnapped by an armed group in Syria</strong>. An unknown anti-Shia group has claimed responsibility, according to AFP. </p><p>• <strong>Activists claim sniper fire from government buildings prevented Arab League observers from visiting a restive neighbourhood in Hama</strong>. Residents tried to persuade the observers to visit the Hamidiya area but they refused to enter on safety grounds, according to opposition activists.</p><h2>Egypt</h2><p>• <strong>Voters are going to the polls on the second day of the third and final phase of elections for Egypt's lower house, the people's assembly, with the Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice party on course for an outright majority, according to some analysts</strong>. The Brotherhood said turnout on Tuesday, the first day of phase three, was 35%. In the first and second phases (each over two days) the turnout was 52% and 67% respectively. </p><p>• <strong>With Islamists set to dominate the parliament, both Israel and the US are reaching out to the Muslim Brotherhood with Israel also keen to engage wioth Salafist parties, according to reports</strong>. On Monday, the deputy head of the Muslim Brotherhood, Rashad Bayoumi, was quoted as saying that it would not recognise Israel and would hold a referendum on the Egypt-Israel peace treaty. </p><p>• <strong>The Egyptian justice minister has reportedly requested information on 73 registered civil society organisations as part of the attorney general's investigations into the foreign funding of civil society organisations despite an assurance given to the US that it would make it easier for NGOs to operate in the country.</strong> After raids on 10 NGOs on Thursday, including US government-funded groups, the head of the armed forces, Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, assured US defence secretary Leon Panetta that the raids would stop and the operating environment would be made less hostile.</p><h2>Libya</h2><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/04/us-libya-idUSTRE80301120120104">The chairman of the National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, has warned that Libya risks sliding into civil war unless it brings rival militias under control.</a> Jalil was speaking in response to a gun battle between militias in one of Tripoli's busiest streets which killed four fighters. "If there's no security, there will be no law, no development and no elections," he said. "People are taking the law into their own hands." </p><h2>Bahrain</h2><p>• <strong>The Bahraini government has increased its crackdown on pro-democracy campaigners despite a pledge to usher in reform, according to Middle East analysts and members of the International Crisis Group</strong>. Toby Jones and Ala'a Shehabi write in Foreign Policy magazine that the government "has ignored calls for an end to its assault on pro-democracy forces, and in the last few weeks has actually intensified its crackdown. Security forces have once again laid siege to the country's many poor villages, home to most of its Shia majority as well as the country's pro-democracy movement."</p><p id="block-9"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-9" class="block-link" title="Link to update 9">12.29pm:</a></span> Israel and the US are both reaching out to the Islamist parties in Egypt that are set to dominate the country's first freely elected parliament, according to two separate news reports.</p><p>Israel's Foreign Ministry has instructed the Israeli ambassador in Cairo Jacob Amity to start talks with Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood and Salafi parties, <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=449967">the Ma'an news agency reports</a>, citing Israeli Hebrew daily Maariv:</p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>According to Maariv, Israel's former ambassador to Egypt Yitzhad Levanon suggested establishing relations with the Islamist movements after the overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak in January, but the foreign ministry rejected the initiative. </p><p>But the ministry reconsidered in light of the parties' strong showing in elections, Maariv reported. </p></blockquote><p>The report comes after the deputy head of the Muslim Brotherhood,<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/egypt-s-muslim-brotherhood-plans-to-put-treaty-with-israel-to-a-referendum-1.404987"> Rashad Bayoumi, was quoted as saying that it would not recognise Israel</a> and would hold a referendum on the Egypt-Israel peace treaty. The more conservative Salafist al-Nour party, second to the Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party in the number of seats won in the parliamentary elections so far, has previously <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/main-salafist-party-vows-to-honour-egypt-treaty-with-israel">said that it will honour the peace treaty</a>, amid Israeli and US fears about the fate of the accords under an Islamist-dominated parliament.</p><p>Meanwhile, <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45867719/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/#.TwRBYnERaso">the New York Times says the US has held high-level meetings with the Muslim Brotherhood in recent weeks, which "constitute a historic shift in a foreign policy"</a>. It says:</p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>The shift is, on one level, an acknowledgment of the new political reality here, and indeed around the region, as Islamist groups come to power.</p><p>The reversal also reflects the administration's growing acceptance of the Brotherhood's repeated assurances that its lawmakers want to build a modern democracy that will respect individual freedoms, free markets and international commitments, including Egypt's treaty with Israel. </p></blockquote><p id="block-8"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-8" class="block-link" title="Link to update 8">11.58am:</a></span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=351975281496281&set=a.221856221174855.74557.217848338242310&type=1">Three people were killed in Homs today,</a> according to activists, on a day when the Arab League observers were due to continue inspecting the city.</p><p>The Local Local Coordination Committees in Syria said they were among five people killed today. </p><p>It named one of those killed in Homs as 16-year-old Omar Haitham al-Tadmwri. The activist group said he was <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=351984514828691&set=a.221856221174855.74557.217848338242310&type=1">killed by sniper fire</a>.</p><p>One of other two deaths occurred in Hama. </p><span class="inline embed embed-media"> <iframe width="460" height="283" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315if_/http://www.youtube.com/embed/egq6c6N8uGA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> </span><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://youtu.be/egq6c6N8uGA">This video, purportedly filmed in Hama</a> on Tuesday appears to show Arab League observers ignoring pleas to inspect allegations of atrocities by residents.</p><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/activists-accuse-syrian-regime-of-misleading-arab-league-observers/2012/01/04/gIQAczW3ZP_story.html?wprss=">Activists and the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights have accused the Syrian authorities of trying to mislead the observers</a>, according to AP.</p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>They say authorities are changing neighborhood signs to confuse the monitors, taking them to areas loyal to the regime and painting army vehicles to look like those of the police — in order to claim the army has pulled out of flashpoint regions.</p></blockquote><p id="block-7"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-7" class="block-link" title="Link to update 7">11.45am:</a></span> The Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party (FJP) says turnout on<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=29508&"> Tuesday, the first day of the final phase of voting for the people's assembly, was around 35%</a>. </p><p>Turnout in the first two rounds was much higher, at 52% in the first round and 67% in the second round. Voting continues in the third and final round today.</p><p>Meanwhile, newly elected <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=29505&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter">FJP female MPs have defended the new parliament - and the FJP - amid criticism over the lack of women elected</a>. </p><p>Aza Al-Garf said:</p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>I believe one elected female candidate may very well prove to be more efficient than a number of appointed ones who have no knowledge regarding women's affairs and their problems ...</p><p>The FJP equally supported its female candidates funding them and campaigning for them with as much vigoUr as it did its male candidates. Women in the Muslim Brotherhood have had an active role since the group's establishment over 80 years ago.</p></blockquote><p id="block-6"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-6" class="block-link" title="Link to update 6">11.08am:</a></span> The Egyptian justice minister, Adel Abdel Hamid, has requested information on 73 registered civil society organisations as part of the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/582736">attorney general's investigations into the foreign funding of civil society organisations</a>, al-Masry al-Youm reports, citing a source within the ministry of insurance and social affairs. </p><p>The report would seem to contradict an assurance given by the head of the armed forces, Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, that the operating environment for NGOs in Egypt would be made less hostile. That assurance came in the wake of unprecedented armed raids on a series of <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/29/us-egyptian-forces-raid-cairo">high profile human rights and pro-democracy organisations by Egyptian security forces on 29 December</a>. </p><p>A <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.iewy.com/39190-egypt-national-and-international-human-rights-organizations-are-under-attack.html">joint statement by six human rights groups</a> including the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies and Human Rights Watch said that the raids "are taking place in the context of the larger campaign lead by the Supreme Council for Armed Forces (Scaf) and the Egyptian government starting in June 2011 against civil society organisations, and more specifically human rights groups, in Egypt". </p><p>The US said it was "deeply concerned" by Thursday's raids, which targeted 10 groups, including the US-government funded National Democratic Institute, founded by former secretary of state Madeleine Albright, and the International Republican Institute, whose chairman is Republican senator John McCain. One <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://leahy.senate.gov/press/press_releases/release/?id=02a22e09-bca3-4907-9220-12a43fce158d">senator warned that it could affect US foreign aid</a> . But the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=66637">Pentagon also expressed "appreciation" for the decision to stop the raids</a> and make it easier for NGOs to operate in Egypt. </p><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.thedailynewsegypt.com/human-a-civil-rights/scaf-police-knew-nothing-about-ngo-inspection-say-ministers.html">Egyptian ministers have since claimed that Scaf knew nothing about the raids</a> and said no military or police forces participated in them. </p><p>Meanwhile, Germany announced yesterday that it is sending an envoy to Egypt to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Germany-sends-envoy-to-Egypt-over-NGO-raids/articleshow/11351801.cms">press authorities over the raid on the Cairo office of German thinktank he Konrad Adenauer Foundation</a>, which has links to Chancellor Angela Merkel's party. </p><p>Reuters reported on Tuesday that the raids had disrupted the work of leading Western-backed election monitors during the final phase of voting for the lower house of parliament, the people's assembly, and drawn accusations that the army was deliberately trying to weaken oversight of the vote and silence opponents. Some of the NGOs say they will take legal action against the "repressive measures" employed against them.</p> <span class="inline"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/1/4/1325675197133/Elaraby.jpg" alt="elaraby-cartoon" width="220" height="224"/> </a> </span> <p id="block-5"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-5" class="block-link" title="Link to update 5">10.56am:</a></span> Syria's state news agency has set out the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.sana.sy/eng/21/2012/01/04/392177.htm">itinerary for today's visits by Arab League observers</a>. The monitors are due to visit: Daael in the southern province of Deraa today; Homs including Baba Amro and Harasta near Damascus.</p><p>Foreign ministry spokesman Jihad Makdisi insisted that the Syrian authorities were doing "everything necessary to facilitate the League's mission".</p><p>Deutsche Presse-Agentur quoted him saying:<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1683868.php/Syria-calls-for-observers-neutrality-ahead-of-crucial-meeting"> "Syria is betting on the impartiality and professionalism in the work of the Arab League monitors".</a></p><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgCUlq8_ZgI">Protesters in the north west province of Idlib demonstrated against the league's mission</a> on Tuesday. They held a placard [pictured] of showing the head of the Arab League Nabil Elaraby drinking the blood of a bleeding Syria with <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/bashar-al-assad" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Bashar al-Assad">Bashar al-Assad</a> dressed as Dracula.</p> <span class="inline"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2011/5/4/1304495263439/Jay-Carney-001.jpg" alt="Jay Carney" width="140" height="130"/> </a> </span> <p id="block-4"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-4" class="block-link" title="Link to update 4">10.22am:</a></span> The Obama administration has hinted that it is prepared to consider tougher measures against Syria if the Arab League mission continues to fail.</p><p>At a <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/01/03/press-briefing-press-secretary-jay-carney-132012">press conference on Tuesday White House spokesman Jay Carney</a> [pictured] was asked whether the administration was considering a "Libya-esque approach" to Syria. </p><p>He replied: </p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>The President takes no options off the table in this situation. But we are very focused on a diplomatic approach ... We have made clear that if the Arab League initiative is not implemented, the international community will have to consider new measures to compel a halt to the regime's violence against its own citizens.</p><p>As sniper fire, torture and murder in Syria continue, it is clear that the requirements of the Arab League protocol have not been met. Across the country the Syrian people continue to suffer at the hand of the Assad regime and as indiscriminating killing and - indiscriminate killing of scores of civilians continues. </p><p>... We're working with our international partners to increase the pressure on the Assad regime to cease the completely unacceptable violence that it's been perpetrating on its own citizens.</p></blockquote><p>Foreign Policy magazine's the Cable blog reported that the administration was "quietly preparing options for how to assist the Syrian opposition, including <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/12/28/obama_administration_secretly_preparing_options_for_aiding_the_syrian_opposition">gaming out the unlikely option of setting up a no-fly zone</a> in Syria and preparing for another major diplomatic initiative."</p><p>It said the National Security Council had set up an group to consider the options. </p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>The options under consideration include establishing a humanitarian corridor or safe zone for civilians in Syria along the Turkish border, extending humanitarian aid to the Syrian rebels, providing medical aid to Syrian clinics, engaging more with the external and internal opposition, forming an international contact group, or appointing a special coordinator for working with the Syrian opposition (as was done in Libya), according to the two officials, both of whom are familiar with the discussions but not in attendance at the meetings.</p></blockquote><p>One of its sources played down talk of a Libya-style operation. </p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>"This isn't Libya. What happens in Libya stays in Libya, but that is not going to happen in Syria. The stakes are higher," the official said. "Right now, we see the risks of moving too fast as higher than the risks of moving too slow."</p></blockquote><p id="block-3"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-3" class="block-link" title="Link to update 3">9.46am:</a></span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://news.yahoo.com/iran-demands-release-7-nationals-held-syria-083202048.html">Tehran has demanded the release of seven Iranians who the Syrian government claim were kidnapped last month in Homs, </a>AFP reports.</p><p>It claims an unknown group calling itself the "Movement Against the Expansion of Shiism in Syria" has claimed responsibility for abducting the engineers.</p><p>Iran's Press TV carried a photograph of five of the men who were initially reported kidnapped. <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.presstv.ir/detail/218527.html">Two were seized when they went to investigate</a>, it claimed. </p><p>Activists were sceptical of the original reports of the kidnapping. Syrian blogger Maysloon tweeted: "What were five Iranians doing in Homs when even foreign media aren't allowed there for 'security' reasons? <a href="#Syriahttps://twitter.com/#!/Maysaloon/statuses/149499079737606144">Something stinks."</a> </p><p>Syria's state news agency initially said <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.sana.sy/eng/337/2011/12/21/389670.htm">eight engineers of different nationalities</a> were captured by an armed gang.</p><p id="block-2"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-2" class="block-link" title="Link to update 2">9.34am:</a></span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/01/02/bahrains_revolutionaries">The Bahraini government has increased its crackdown on pro-democracy campaigners despite a pledge to usher in reform</a>, Middle East analysts Toby Jones and Ala'a Shehabi argue in Foreign Policy magazine.</p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>The Bahraini government is not interested in reform or reconciliation. It has ignored calls for an end to its assault on pro-democracy forces, and in the last few weeks has actually intensified its crackdown. Security forces have once again laid siege to the country's many poor villages, home to most of its Shia majority as well as the country's pro-democracy movement. Several people have been killed in the last month by police. Thick and choking tear gas has become a fixture across the island. This recent turn for the worse comes just over four weeks after the Bahrain Independent Commission of Inquiry (BICI), headed by the respected M. Cherif Bassiouni, released its report charging the government and security forces with using excessive force in its handling of street protests in the spring. Many had hoped that the report would signal a new opportunity for Bahrain's competing political forces to come together and forge a way through the country's impasse. Sadly, neither the government nor the mainstream opposition has risen to the occasion. The country's political crisis is worsening as a result, and the prospects of reform fading from view.</p></blockquote><p>Joost Hiltermann and Kelly McEvers from the International Crisis Group reached a <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/dec/27/barricaded-bahrain/">similar conclusion in a blog post for the New York Review of Books</a>.</p><blockquote class="quoted"><p>The longer the government fails to respond in a substantive way to allegations in the Bassiouni report—for instance, by sacking key figures believed to be responsible for the abuse, such as the Minister of Interior—the longer such unrest will continue.</p><p>Indeed, if there is another round of mass protests in the city centre (for example, following more deaths as a result of actions by security forces in Shia villages like Aali) and the regime again resorts to violent suppression, it may no longer be able to maintain the precarious status quo.</p></blockquote><p id="block-1"><span class="timestamp"><a href="#block-1" class="block-link" title="Link to update 1">8.27am:</a></span> (all times GMT) Welcome to Middle East Live. The focus remains on Syria as the killing continues despite the presence of Arab League observers. </p><p>Here's a round up of the latest developments:</p><h2>Syria</h2><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://us2.campaign-archive.com/?u=556aeef60722f6e5811ea2519&id=988df95448"><strong>Activists claim sniper fire from government buildings prevented Arab League observers visiting a neighbourhood of Hama.</strong></a> Residents tried to persuade the observers to visit the Hamidiya area but they refused to enter on safety grounds, according to opposition activists. </p><span class="inline embed embed-media"> <iframe width="460" height="283" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315if_/http://www.youtube.com/embed/chRIAl7Oz5c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> </span><p>Video from Monday appeared to show <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://youtu.be/chRIAl7Oz5c">shots being fired while observers visited Hama</a>. </p><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/arab-league-to-discuss-fate-of-syria-mission-6284539.html"><strong>The Arab League is to hold an meeting in Cairo on Saturday to discuss the fate of its observer mission to Syria, amid mounting criticism of the initiative</strong></a>, the Independent reports. But in the meantime <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/04/world/middleeast/syria-killings-continue-despite-observers.html">50 more observers are to be sent to Syria</a> in effort to monitor and help prevent the continuing crackdown against anti-government protesters.</p><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://syrianrevolutiondigest.blogspot.com/2012/01/arab-league-monitors-meaningless-in.html"><strong>Homs activist Khalid Abou Salah has appeared in another video with Arab League observers, this time handing over an armoured vehicle captured by defected troops.</strong></a> </p><span class="inline embed embed-media"> <iframe width="460" height="283" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315if_/http://www.youtube.com/embed/3J-YyXV7kmI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> </span><p>The clip came as the leader of the Free Syrian Army, <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/03/us-syria-idUSTRE7BO0B620120103">Riad al-Asaad warned of further attacks against the regime if the league's monitoring mission failed to stop the violence</a>.</p><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=153482301426783&id=121855461256134"><strong>At least 18 members of Syrian security forces were killed in the city of Jasim, after the defection of dozens of soldiers, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.</strong></a> The bodies of the dead men were taken to a government hospital in Deraa, it said. </p><h2>Egypt</h2><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/04/world/africa/egyptians-vote-in-final-round-of-parliamentary-elections.html"><strong>The Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice party could be heading towards an outright majority in the Parliament while the final round of voting continues,</strong></a> the New York Times reports. It already has over 40% of the vote and the final round includes some of its biggest strongholds. </p><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/3895/brotherhood-spokesperson_military-rulers-could-be-"><strong>The Muslim Brotherhood's official spokesperson Mahmoud Ghozlan has suggested granting members of the military council immunity from prosecution in return for a peaceful handover of power, </strong></a>Jadaliyya reports. Ghozlan said that such an initiative would save the country "trouble" in the sense of escalation in violence and instability.</p><h2>Libya</h2><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-16395533"><strong>Four people were killed and at least five injured in a gunfight between rival militias in the capital, Tripoli.</strong></a> A brigade from the city of Misrata tried to free prisoners held inside an old intelligence building bombed by Nato leading to a confrontation with another armed group from Tripoli, the BBC reports.</p><h2><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/morocco" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Morocco">Morocco</a></h2><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/03/morocco-islamist-justice-and-development_n_1181086.html"><strong>Morocco's ruling coalition has formed a new government that gives top posts to an Islamist party but also keeps close allies of the king in powerful positions, </strong></a>the Huffington Post reports. The Islamist Justice and Development Party won the most seats in November's elections and took 12 of the 31 cabinet posts.</p><h2>Iran</h2><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/03/oil-prices-up-iran-america-tensions"><strong>The United States has insisted it will continue to deploy its warships in the Gulf in the face of threats from Iran.</strong></a> General Ataollah Salehi, Iran's army chief warned an American aircraft carrier not to return to the Persian Gulf in Tehran's latest tough rhetoric over the strategic waterway, part of a feud over new sanctions that has sparked a jump in oil prices.</p><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/03/iran-former-president-daughter-jailed-hashimi"><strong>The daughter of former Iranian president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani has been sentenced to six months in jail after being found guilty of "spreading propaganda" against the country's regime.</strong></a> Faezeh Hashemi, a political activist and former member of the Iranian parliament whose views are close to those of the reformists, was informed of the court's verdict on Tuesday.</p><h2>Israel and the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestinian-territories" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Palestinian territories">Palestinian territories</a></h2><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israelis-and-palestinians-meet-agree-to-keep-talking/2012/01/03/gIQATCppYP_story.html"><strong>Israeli and Palestinian negotiators met for the first time in more than a year in Amman on Tuesday and agreed to keep talking at further meetings. </strong></a>Jordan's foreign minister added that Israel had received written Palestinian proposals on borders and security and would respond.</p> </div> </div> </div> <div id="related"> <div class="blog-byline b4"> <span class="blog-byline-kick"> Posted by <div class="contributer-full"> <a class="contributor" rel="author" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/matthewweaver"> Matthew Weaver</a> and <a class="contributor" rel="author" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/haroonsiddique"> Haroon Siddique</a> </div> </span> <span class="timestamp"> Wednesday 4 January 2012 17.48 GMT </span> <span class="byline-publication"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/">guardian.co.uk</a> </span> <div class="history js-show"> <a class="rollover history-link" href="#history-link-box">Article history</a> <div class="toolbox-popup" id="history-link-box" style="width: 460px"> <div class="send-inner"> <div class="share-top"> <h3>About this article</h3> <span><a class="close-toolbox" href="#history-link-box">Close</a></span> </div> <div class="section"> <h1>Syria, Egypt and Middle East unrest - Wednesday 4 January</h1> This article was published on <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/">guardian.co.uk</a> at <time datetime="2012-01-04T00:00GMT" pubdate>17.48 GMT on Wednesday 4 January 2012</time>. It was last modified at <time datetime="2012-01-04T17:52GMT">17.52 GMT on Wednesday 4 January 2012</time>. 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</div> </div> </div> <div class="toolbox-popup" id="history-link-box" style="width: 460px"> <div class="send-inner"> <div class="share-top"> <h3>About this article</h3> <span><a class="close-toolbox" href="#history-link-box">Close</a></span> </div> <div class="section"> <h1>Syria, Egypt and Middle East unrest - Wednesday 4 January</h1> This article was published on <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/">guardian.co.uk</a> at <time datetime="2012-01-04T00:00GMT" pubdate>17.48 GMT on Wednesday 4 January 2012</time>. It was last modified at <time datetime="2012-01-04T17:52GMT">17.52 GMT on Wednesday 4 January 2012</time>. 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src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/DrDrug" title="User profile page">DrDrug</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 09:40AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Fresh from Turkish PM Tayyip Erdogan hailing a strategic regional partnership with Syria's Assad at their summit on 12 Oct 2010, Erdogan now starts the new year how he means to go on, and courts Hamas in a meeting on Sunday 1st Jan in Instanbul.</p><p>Hamas, remember, maintains their leadership HQ in Damascus, while the Syrian army shoots Palestinians in Latakia refugee camp.</p><p>You couldn't make it up.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13969775);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13969775">9</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13969775"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13969775"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13969775" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13969990"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/11/02/Damntheral/328265a2-be95-405c-b1ae-9f3e09e5ccf4/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Damntheral" title="User profile page">Damntheral</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:00AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>Fresh from Turkish PM Tayyip Erdogan hailing a strategic regional partnership with Syria's Assad at their summit on 12 Oct 2010</p></blockquote><p>That's not very fresh actually.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13969990);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" 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class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/DrDrug" title="User profile page">DrDrug</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:10AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>That's not very fresh actually</p></blockquote><p>Oh, Assad is a different person now? </p><p>And anything that happened 15 months ago is no longer relevent?</p><p>Next, you'll forget about the Syrian Army shooting Palestinians in their concentration camps.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970083);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970083">6</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970083"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970083"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970083" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970206"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/PeterBrit" title="User profile page">PeterBrit</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:20AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Reuters reports that the new head of the Libyan army is an ex-general from Misrata. I wonder if that's wise. On one level it will help integrate the Misratan milias. On the other hand is now means that allied Zintan and Misrata are tightening their grips on interior ministry and MoD, excluding others, in particular Tripoli. Tripoli fighters yesterday defeated an attack by Misratan fighters in Tripoli and took Misratan prisoners. </p><p>Similarly, Reuters report that the draft election law from the NTC would exclude from standing those linked to Gaddafi. Again on one level you could argue this is reasonable. On the other hand, de-Baathifcation in Iraq gave massive impetus to the insurrection there.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970206);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970206">3</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970206"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970206"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970206" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970209"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/05/01/ineverlie/e99fdcc8-7596-4120-abbe-3a84e4cdd6f7/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/ineverlie" title="User profile page">ineverlie</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:20AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>No matter what country in the region, the new 'boss' will still be the same as the old 'boss'.<br>Won't get fooled again indeed !</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970209);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970209">3</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970209"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970209"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970209" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970238"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:23AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>re Iran sanctions and oil</p><p>atl mentions 'part of a feud over new sanctions that has sparked a jump in oil prices.'</p><p>the linked article includes:</p><p>'Oil prices rose to over $101 a barrel Tuesday amid concerns that rising tensions between western powers and Iran could lead to crude supply disruptions. By early afternoon in Europe, benchmark crude for February delivery was up $2.67 to $101.50 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange.'</p><p>a number of msm have said that oil has 'surged' to $101, but its slightly misleading. To place movement in context, oil was $120 back in Feb when Libya conflict escalated; and other factors brought down price; a slowdown in world economy has led to fall in demand, Libya production still not pre war levels, and in terms of US sanctions on Iran, Turkey has already asked for a waiver as it obtains 30% oil from Iran (Greece also expected as it currently gets 100% oil imports from Iran as no letters of credit), any excess Iranian oil will likely be taken up by China</p><p>http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/01/04/uk-turkey-iran-sanctions-idUKTRE8030IT20120104</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970238);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970238">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970238"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970238"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970238" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970249"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/10/13/Conantheballbaering/0733301e-a511-4380-8311-a32503aad661/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Conantheballbaering" title="User profile page">Conantheballbaering</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:24AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>The Bahraini Royal family are allowed to murder its citizens because it allows the US to use its port facilities.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970249);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970249">18</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970249"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970249"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970249" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970314"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:30AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>PB</p><p>re de-Gaddification<br>it depends on how it is enforced, if it is senior ranks, rather than rank and file; and also timing, implementation, needs to be transparent, gradual and closely monitored with an appeal process to avoid ad hoc use (e.g. using it as a smear to get rid off political opponents). </p><p>call me a cynic, but I also think the law is intended to avoid any Guddafi family members (e.g. Aisha) from potentially standing as that would be an embarrassment if she were to stand and get a sizable vote from Sirte and Bani Walid voters (and elsewhere).</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970314);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970314">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970314"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970314"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970314" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970330"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/03/07/HushedSilence/be0c6181-2837-4031-8048-6f14f74e237f/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/HushedSilence" title="User profile page">HushedSilence</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:31AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p> Jordan's foreign minister added that Israel had received written Palestinian proposals on borders and security and would respond</p></blockquote><p> If this is indeed so it is very significant and historic. This is the first time that the Palestinians have offered a plan to settle the long dispute. In the past they have refused every offer made by Israel & never responded or initiated negotiations by offering a plan of their own.</p><p>If both sides have no expectations of success despite this development then there are issues that have not been made public</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970330);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970330">2</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970330"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970330"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970330" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970333"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/08/19/BrownMoses/1bc88f57-6fd7-4638-95b3-a8725bb657f8/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/BrownMoses" title="User profile page">BrownMoses</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:31AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>In case you missed it over Christmas, Physicians for Human Rights <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/press/press-releases/new-report-provides-first-in-depth-forensic-account-of-libyan-massacre.html" rel="nofollow">released a report</a> on what was widely reported as the 32nd Brigade warehouse massacre that was discovered as Tripoli was being captured by the NTC forces. You'll probably remember the pictures of dozens of burnt corpses in a warehouse: </p><blockquote><p>Four corroborated testimonies of three detainees and one of their captors tell a story from start to finish of a three-month period of torture and imprisonment in inhuman conditions which culminated in this massacre. During an in-depth investigation into the 32nd Brigade massacre and events preceding it, PHR gathered evidence of torture, rape, and summary executions of male detainees at the makeshift detention facility. </p></blockquote><p>The report itself is <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/https://s3.amazonaws.com/PHR_Reports/Libya-32nd-Brigade-Massacre.pdf" rel="nofollow">here.</a> </p><p>It should be noted that according to the report Khamis Gaddafi ordered the massacre<br></p><blockquote><p>At around 12:00 noon on 23 August 2011, Laskhar saw Faraj Abu Ghalia (Deputy Chief of Military Intelligence) enter the room where Khamis Qaddafi was conducting a meeting at the 32nd Brigade. Laskhar was also present in the room with his direct superior, Sergeant Major Hamza el Harizi, who was speaking with his superior, Lt. Col. Mohammad Mansour, on the telephone.</p><p>According to Laskhar, after Harizi finished the call, he told Laskhar that Khamis Qaddafi ordered all detainees at the compound be killed and that the operation begin that night</p></blockquote> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970333);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970333">2</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970333"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970333"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970333" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970360"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://resource.guim.co.uk/discussion/static/1770/images/icons_staff_28.gif" width="28" height="28" alt="Staff"/> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/07/21/EdHadfield/c12f0578-dc7d-47c8-b80c-1aac92457ad6/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/EdHadfield" title="User profile page">EdHadfield</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:33AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Here's an interesting piece on the Iran sanctions: <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/sanctions-against-iran-are-overrated-6306?page=show" rel="nofollow">http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/sanctions-against-iran-are-overrated-6306?page=show</a></p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970360);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970360">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970360"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970360"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970360" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970416"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/laguerre" title="User profile page">laguerre</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:38AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>Video from Monday appeared to show shots being fired while observers visited Hama.</p></blockquote><p>You mean we <i>heard</i> <b>one </b> shot being fired. It is very easy to add a sound track. Though in this case, it seems to be genuine, with all the shouts of "itlaq al-nar" (opening fire). Could be anybody, though, after all the exchanges of fire by militias in Tripoli yesterday.</p><p>I don't understand why you put up stuff which is meaningless.</p><p>Not as bad as yesterday's online poll graph from the Syrian National Council website, though. It was an online poll open to anybody, for God's sake, not only Syrians. That was the pits for meaningless pro-opposition items.</p><p>By the way, the SNC website is very nicely done. Must have cost a bundle. Just another demonstration of the heavy external support the Syrian opposition groups are getting. Funny how those who detested the TNC in Benghazi are still supporting the Syrian opposition. The only difference between the two is that Western support for the Syrian opposition is still covert.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970416);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970416">4</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970416"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970416"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970416" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970536"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:46AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Edhatfield</p><p>thanks for the link; without adding comprehensive oil related sanctions to the list, the effect on Iran will be minimal</p><p>the issue for US is that it doesnt rely on Iranian oil, so needs a broader coalition, but so far Turkey, Greece, Italy and China have raised issues; and now South Korea and Japan who have also raised objections</p><p>http://www.marketwatch.com/story/south-korea-japan-mull-iran-sanctions-implication-2012-01-04</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970536);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970536">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970536"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970536"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970536" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970548"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/07/24/Leeblue/6476c5ca-6711-4321-9328-b3ed31c83ce3/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Leeblue" title="User profile page">Leeblue</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:47AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>I am quite surprised that any comments are allowed on the " Rveolutions" that are bubbling in the Middle East and North Africa !</p><p>Why has it taken so long for any kind of reaction on the Syrian front ? Bashar has been executing his people for eight months and barefaced lieing to all and sundry about what he is doing ! The useless Arab League flaps and faffs and spends most of it's time trying to appease !</p><p>Libya is starting to fall into Anarchy ,as of yesterday reports that factions are fighting in Tripoli are coming through . As if Cameron/Sarkozy/Hague didn't realise what a Pandoras Box they were opening their , and if they didn't, what an ignorant , naive menagé a trois they are !</p><p>Bahrain has been simmering for eight months ,but of course Cameron has sold lots of weapons to the Royal Family to "Help" , and the Saudi's moved in with their army to keep things under control !</p><p>Yemen is still in a state of Flux , Egypt is on the brink ,again , </p><p>Jordan & Marocco ,have two clever Kings , they seem to be making the right moves , "At the Moment" !</p><p>It would seem that the people have decided that Islam, in a more pure form, is the way forwards . But then there is the sectarian issues of Sunni and Shia . So the road seems to be , get rid of the despots and Western financed/Aided Governments and replace with an Islamic political system , then fight among themselves untill it is established which "Sect" gains the upper hand ?</p><p>In the meantime the Persians ( Iranians) who are Shia ,will upset the Saudi's ,who are Sunni , and the West attacks the Iranians ? </p><p>The Taliban are opening an office in Qatar , because they don't trust Pakistan or Karzai's Government , in order to "Get their Point Across" !</p><p>Nigeria , Boco Haram are slaughtering Christians and burning Churches in Northern Nigeria , civil war ? Somalia , total anarchy .Meanwhile Sudan , Niger , Chad are all festering </p><p>2012 , crises , what crises !</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970548);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970548">5</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970548"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970548"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970548" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970659"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Atvar48" title="User profile page">Atvar48</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:55AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Morning All</p><p>@BrownMoses<br>In case you missed it over Christmas, Physicians for Human Rights released a report on what was widely reported as the 32nd Brigade warehouse massacre that was discovered as Tripoli was being captured by the NTC forces.</p><p>Unfortunately like many other abuses committed by BOTH sides, I very much doubt any serious investigation will be undertaken and it will all be swept under the carpet so speak . We have already seen Libya drop out the news, well until recently that is.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970659);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970659">2</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970659"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970659"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970659" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970701"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/08/19/BrownMoses/1bc88f57-6fd7-4638-95b3-a8725bb657f8/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/BrownMoses" title="User profile page">BrownMoses</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:57AM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970659">Atvar48, 4 January 2012 10:55AM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>There's certaintly been a lack of Libya ATL updates on this live blog, which I find disappointing, especially as there's been some significant stuff happening, even if it isn't widely reported.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970701);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970701">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970701"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970701"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970701" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970734"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 10:59AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Leeblue</p><p>'crises, what crises!'</p><p>well, if the US somehow strong arm everyone, then we'll face a worldwide recession, Iran will try to shut down Gulf of Hormuz, msnbc quotes a number of analysts saying oil price rise $150-200; but ends on this comforting point:</p><p>"If Hormuz was to be disrupted, we're talking the biggest disruption the oil market has ever seen, we've never seen anything like it, and that's why we think it's very unlikely," he said.</p><p>http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/03/9924451-iran-oil-standoff-could-mean-higher-gas-prices</p><p>with such excellant circular reasoning, I'm guessing he never saw the credit crunch either</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970734);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970734">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970734"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970734"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970734" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970762"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Atvar48" title="User profile page">Atvar48</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 11:02AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>@capmint & PB</p><p>call me a cynic, but I also think the law is intended to avoid any Guddafi family members (e.g. Aisha) from potentially standing as that would be an embarrassment if she were to stand and get a sizable vote from Sirte and Bani Walid voters (and elsewhere).</p><p>Indeed ,and to add by excluding certain parts of the population from choosing a candidate they want i.e.ex-gaddafhi regime, you could hardly call a future election a fair and democratic process.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970762);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970762">6</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970762"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970762"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970762" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970808"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/08/23/Mercurey/cf094ce4-a1c0-4475-bac1-ad5ce51bed13/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Mercurey" title="User profile page">Mercurey</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 11:05AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>When do we start bombing Bahrain in order to protect their civilians from the despots?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970808);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970808">11</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970808"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970808"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970808" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970890"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://resource.guim.co.uk/discussion/static/1770/images/icons_staff_28.gif" width="28" height="28" alt="Staff"/> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/07/21/EdHadfield/c12f0578-dc7d-47c8-b80c-1aac92457ad6/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/EdHadfield" title="User profile page">EdHadfield</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 11:11AM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970536">capmint1, 4 January 2012 10:46AM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Thanks for the link.</p><p>Yes it will be interesting to see how many countries actually go along with it.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970890);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970890">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970890"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970890"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a 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the Uludere attack on the Turkish-Iraq border that left 35 civilians dead by eight human rights NGOs. Two of the main findings are that some of the civilians died of their injuries and exposure because of the slow response of the autorities, and autopsy evidence wasn't collected according to the correct procedures, warning "that there was the high possibility of concealing evidence."</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970895);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970895">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970895"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970895"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970895" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970907"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://resource.guim.co.uk/discussion/static/1770/images/icons_staff_28.gif" width="28" height="28" alt="Staff"/> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/08/22/BrianWhit/b4c59950-d1bf-4566-af6d-4e89bdfdb6ba/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/BrianWhit" title="User profile page">BrianWhit</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 11:12AM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970206">PeterBrit, 4 January 2012 10:20AM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>I'm also a bit dubious about the Libyan electoral law. At this stage, though, it's only a draft and there does seem to be a reasonable amount of public debate about it in Libya.</p><p>Here's an article in the Wall Street Journal:<br><a href="#" rel="nofollow"> Libya's Draft Election Law Sparks Debates</a></p><p>and another from Reuters ...<br><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/02/us-libya-election-law-idUSTRE8010HF20120102" rel="nofollow"> Libyans linked to Gaddafi can't run in election: draft</a></p><p>Excluding minor Gaddafi "collaborators" would obviously be problematic because many people had little choice at the time. The Reuters report says those excluded would be "former officials accused of torturing Libyans or embezzling public funds, active members of the Revolutionary Guard, and opposition members who made peace with Gaddafi", along with academics who wrote about Gaddafi's Green Book (presumably meaning those who wrote favourably about it).</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970907);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970907">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970907"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970907"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970907" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13970915"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 11:13AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>atvar<br>interesting op ed, 'will 2012 bring tribal violence to Libya' </p><p>couple of salient points:</p><p>According to her committee’s research, in addition to the 7000 plus pro Gadhafi loyalists acknowledged as imprisoned by the TTC,, 80% identified by name, the Committee for Justice for the Disappeared, claim that there are more than 35,000 Libyans being held secretly by militia that are outside the control and sometimes even the knowledge of the essentially powerless TNC. Ahmad agrees with this figure from what he learned in prison and explained that he would take me to a school near my hotel before classes open on January 7th and if we walk by at night without traffic noise we can hear the shouting of guards and screams of prisoners being held.</p><p>“Whatever intra-tribal or geographical divisions existed a year ago, they are 500 times worse today. The Tribes are arming and have given the new government several deadlines for committing to rebuild destroyed homes and businesses, helping homeless families, and getting the guns off the streets and sending the armed gangs back to where they came from. To date nothing has been achieved by the new government and people are growing very angry.”</p><p>http://www.eurasiareview.com/03012012-will-2012-bring-tribal-war-to-libya-oped/</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13970915);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13970915">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13970915"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13970915"/> <input class="form-based-login-required 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href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/11/syria-nato-genocide-approaches.html" rel="nofollow">UN Syria Report Co-Authored by Director of US Corporate Think-Tank</a> <br>by Tony Cartalucci<br>November 30, 2011</p><p>As pointed out in this article:<br>- The UN report on Syria’s ‘crimes against humanity’ was written by a director of a Washington think tank that includes the CIA, US military, US government, defence contractors, US-Qatar Business Council, oil companies and AlJazeera;<br>- The report contains claims by “witnesses’ and no verifiable evidence<br>US media now admit what they denied for months – the opposition is armed<br>We are supposed to believe that the Syrian govt is killing unarmed civilians when it is faced with 15,000 members of the ‘Free Syrian Army’;<br>- The ‘Free Syrian Army’ is being funded and armed through Turkey, Lebanon, Libya and Israel.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13971061);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13971061">4</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13971061"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13971061"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13971061" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13971210"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/11/02/Damntheral/328265a2-be95-405c-b1ae-9f3e09e5ccf4/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Damntheral" title="User profile page">Damntheral</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 11:33AM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970083">DrDrug, 4 January 2012 10:10AM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Turkey and Syria have completely fallen out since then, so yes whatever they were saying 15 months ago is pretty irrelevant now.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13971210);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13971210">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13971210"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13971210"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13971210" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13971442"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 11:51AM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>edhatfield</p><p>AFP are reporting China foriegn ministry spokeperson against unilateral sanctions</p><p>to follow up on one point raised in your link, sanctions are useless, counter productive, and often a precursor of military action; there are a number of plausible scenarios where US could engineer a Gulf of Tonkin incident; Operation Praying Mantis was indeed a variation on theme of Gulf Tonkin, US Navy tried to draw out Iranian Navy in Gulf Hormuz</p><p>less well known is Seymour Hersh reported suggestion from Dick Cheneys US Navy Seals as Iranian Guards to manufacture a casi belli:</p><p>'There was a dozen ideas proffered about how to trigger a war. The one that interested me the most was why don’t we build — we in our shipyard — build four or five boats that look like Iranian PT boats. Put Navy seals on them with a lot of arms. And next time one of our boats goes to the Straits of Hormuz, start a shoot-up.' </p><p>Hersh argued that one of the things the Bush administration learned during the encounter in the Strait of Hormuz was that, “if you get the right incident, the American public will support” it.</p><p>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/31/hersh-cheneys-office-cons_n_116140.html</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13971442);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13971442">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13971442"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13971442"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13971442" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13971606"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 12:01PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>re Iran</p><p>a fairly balanced article and good end comment in this article 'Iran-U.S. tensions reach 20-year high over Strait of Hormuz warning'</p><p>“I think we should be very worried because the diplomacy that should accompany this rise in tension seems to be lacking on both sides,” Richard Dalton, a former British ambassador to Iran and fellow at the Chatham House think-tank told Reuters news agency.</p><p>“I don’t believe either side wants a war to start. I think the Iranians will be aware that if they block the Strait or attack a U.S. ship, they will be the losers. Nor do I think that the U.S. wants to use its military might other than as a means of pressure.</p><p>“However, in a state of heightened emotion on both sides, we are in a dangerous situation.”</p><p>http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/03/iran-u-s-tensions-reach-20-year-high-over-strait-of-hormuz-warning/</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13971606);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13971606">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13971606"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13971606"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13971606" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13971653"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/DrDrug" title="User profile page">DrDrug</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 12:03PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13971210">Damntheral, 4 January 2012 11:33AM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>Turkey and Syria have completely fallen out since then, so yes whatever they were saying 15 months ago is pretty irrelevant now.</p></blockquote><p>Read my original post again.</p><p>You seem to think the "falling out" means anything different, or a reversal, for Turkey's new ideas for the ME? </p><p>One of the pathologies of denial you are showing means that evidence such as Turkey aligning itself closely with Iranian-backed Assad is dismissed as irrelevant, despite Turkey now closely aligning itself with Iranian backed Hamas only a few days ago.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13971653);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13971653">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13971653"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13971653"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13971653" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13971702"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://resource.guim.co.uk/discussion/static/1770/images/icons_staff_28.gif" width="28" height="28" alt="Staff"/> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/07/21/hrwaldram/5a4fb2d6-23f8-49e5-9e5c-f9a2db84887c/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/hrwaldram" title="User profile page">hrwaldram</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 12:06PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970701">BrownMoses, 4 January 2012 10:57AM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>There's certaintly been a lack of Libya ATL updates on this live blog, which I find disappointing, especially as there's been some significant stuff happening, even if it isn't widely reported.</p></blockquote><p>Appreciate your comment @BrownMoses, but coverage usually follows the news and the live bloggers do take into account comments here too - I often think about the coverage holistically (ATL and BTL together) in which case it's much more balanced by the voices here. </p><p>Worth requoting here <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13078601" rel="nofollow">an earlier comment makde by @HaroonS</a> when asked about the focus of the blog:</p><blockquote><p>We try to include significant developments across the region but occasionally one country is moving faster than others. Recently it has sometimes been Libya but also at other times recently Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, Egypt and Tunisia (Syria in particular has alternated regularly with Libya as being the predominant focus of the blog). We understand that many people felt Gaddafi's death was given too much coverage but it was a topic of intense interest and there were many unresolved questions with respect to how he was killed. Libya will probably feature a bit less in future but, as Egypt has shown all too clearly, the removal of a dictator (whether you agreed with it or not) does not signal the end of the story. I appreciate all of your points re Iraq and would not in any way seek to diminish what is happening there. While we do occasionally veer a bit off-topic, this blog has been dedicated to the Arab Spring, or whatever you want to call them, uprisings, which is why Iraq hasn't been featured.</p></blockquote> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13971702);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13971702">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13971702"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13971702"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13971702" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13972511"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/11/02/Damntheral/328265a2-be95-405c-b1ae-9f3e09e5ccf4/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Damntheral" title="User profile page">Damntheral</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 12:51PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>One of the pathologies of denial you are showing</p></blockquote><p><br>Quack quack quack.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13972511);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13972511">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13972511"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13972511"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13972511" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13972693"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Irishman45" title="User profile page">Irishman45</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 01:02PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13971653">DrDrug, 4 January 2012 12:03PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Turkey has a large Sunni population. The Sunni are the one's being slaughtered in Syria at present. Hence Turkey needing to take a hardline towards Syria. Turkish aid ship was attacked by Israel on way to Gaza. Hamas is Gaza governing power. Obvious why to align with Hamas to keep Turkish population happy.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13972693);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13972693">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13972693"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13972693"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13972693" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13973034"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 01:20PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>hrwaldram<br>'I often think about the coverage holistically (ATL and BTL together) in which case it's much more balanced by the voices here.' </p><p>thats the way I view this blog, and why I've highlighted Iran; but also why I value BM and PB posts</p><p>I was just catching up on Craig Murray blog over xmas, some decidely undiplomatic statements:</p><p>I have no doubt that there is a “separate policy” on Israel and Iran, different to that acknowledged in public. I have no doubt that the Fox/Gould/Werritty meetings – and the blanket cover-up of them from scrutiny in parliament, documents or the media – afford a key way into it.</p><p>There is a great deal more evidence for the Gould-Werritty relationship than for the Assange-Manning relationship, yet the BBC refused to carry a single word on Gould-Werritty telling me it was “speculative”. The neo-con agenda at the BBC is something they no longer seek to disguise.</p><p>The gears are grinding behind the surface and I have some explosive stuff on Adam Werritty for the New Year.</p><p>http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/</p><p>any chance of a late xmas present and getting him to write a CiF piece on Iran?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13973034);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13973034">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13973034"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13973034"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13973034" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13973166"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/12/30/khasekhemwy/de98def9-3656-4132-82b6-42ec230e5502/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/khasekhemwy" title="User profile page">khasekhemwy</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 01:28PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>Ten people have been killed so far in Syria today amid continuing frustration at the Arab League's failure to stop the violence.</p></blockquote><p>I assume the person who wrote this witnessed those deaths, as this sentence lacks the usual <b><i>according to Syrian Human Rights Activists</i></b> clause found either at the end or the beginnig of the sentence.</p><p>But anyhow here is what a journalist who does not rely on tweets for news, had to say about the conflict in Syria and the role of these human rights activists:</p><blockquote><p>The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) appeared on the media scene suddenly. This association has no significant track record and only one of its members is known. He is a Syrian Muslim Brotherhood official, holder of three passports, Syrian, British and Swedish. <b>This gentleman announces daily the number of "repression victims," without ever substantiating his claims. His assertions are unverifiable and therefore worthless. Yet, they are taken up by all those whose interests they serve</b>.</p></blockquote><p>and also on the innumerable victims being murdered by Assad:</p><blockquote><p>The High Commissioner stated authoritatively that there are over 5 000 repression victims, but advanced only two names. Unfortunately for her, these two cases, which were widely publicized by Al Jazeera, have undergone numerous investigations. The first is a child killed in the street by unknown gunmen in a runaway car and the second is a teenager who was recruited by an armed gang to participate in an attack on a military barracks and died with a Kalashnikov in his hand. Neither bears the hallmarks of a bloody crackdown against a peaceful protest. We therefore expect the High Commissioner to publish the names of the victims so we can verify the validity of her allegations</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.voltairenet.org/The-decision-to-attack-Syria-was" rel="nofollow">Votaire.net on Syria</a></p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13973166);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13973166">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13973166"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13973166"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13973166" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13973596"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 01:49PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>re US elections</p><p>I posted to Atvar recently that Ron Paul was the only anti interventionist amongst the GoP candidates, and against sanctions re Iran; which means that there is no way the disaster capitalists will want him to win</p><p>yesterdays recent Iowa cacus put him third after Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum; that despite Ron Paul being the only candidate who saw his base consistently rise, most msm commentators saying that Santorum picked up votes from Romney poor performance; but Lew Rockwell site has posted an alternative narrative:</p><p>"I've been following Iowa GOP vote counts for a long time ... They are being slow-walked...in 2012. Negotiations are going on... Cash is changing hands. Apparently GOP chieftains are 'persuading,' by one means or the other, Perry and Bachmann people who hold considerable hold sway over large blocs of votes to switch to Romney and Santorum - leaving Ron in the dust... Also abusing suddenly lax ID registration may have created many fake votes for neocons Santorum and Romney. Santorum has no organization, never drew over 100 people during his entire campaign. Of course he did bribe and received the benediction of of that 'family' leader who demanded 1 million dollars that were to be distributed in part to cronies. This is the biggest fraud since Kennedy stole the West Virginia Primary. Perry had built a pretty organization and was around 13% of the vote. He drew far larger crowds than Santorum and ends up with just 10%. Did those votes go. Santorum? Santorum didn't earn 24% of the vote."<br>http://www.lewrockwell.com/politicaltheatre/2012/01/grand-theft-iowa/</p><p>the site quotes Brad Funkhouse who I've not heard off, and Lewrockwell.com is founder is linked to Ron Paul so it could just be sour grapes, but does anyone have any idea how Santorum got 24%?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13973596);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13973596">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13973596"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13973596"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13973596" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13973608"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Irishman45" title="User profile page">Irishman45</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 01:49PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13973166">khasekhemwy, 4 January 2012 01:28PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>You have been banding about a figure of 150,000 for deaths in Libya in your recent posts. Did you witness them all?. Please provide the source for your 150,000 dead in Libya claim who has witnessed them all.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13973608);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13973608">3</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13973608"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13973608"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13973608" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13973821"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/08/19/BrownMoses/1bc88f57-6fd7-4638-95b3-a8725bb657f8/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/BrownMoses" title="User profile page">BrownMoses</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 02:00PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13973596">capmint1, 4 January 2012 01:49PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Regarding the US Republican primaries I think Santorum is benefiting from the not-Romney wave Cain, Gringrich and others have benefited from, and no doubt his poll numbers will follow the same pattern and will start to sink, especially when Romney inevitably thrashes everyone else in New Hampshire. Ron Paul is too far out of the Republican mainstream to gather enough support, and his numbers are benefiting from a loyal base of libertarians, racists, and survialists, and the not-Romney effect. Either way I don't think Romney or Paul could win against Obama, so I don't expect any dramatic changes in American foreign policy after the election.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13973821);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13973821">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13973821"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13973821"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13973821" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13973977"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 02:08PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Irishman45<br>re 150,000 Libya</p><p>I queried that previously, as it looked high, I believe the source is Webster Tarpley; about as useful as the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights; neither are human rights organisations with proven track records like Physicians Human Rights or HRW.</p><p>incidentally, accepting Syrian Observatory figure 5,000 in 10 months, to put that into context; US invasion off Panama Physicans Human Rights 'at least 300' civilians killed, UN estmated 500; and the true figure (some speculate up to 5,000) may not be known according to HRW due to DoD cover up:</p><p>'To this date, the Pentagon has refused to pay any attention to this matter, except to respond --inadequately -- to controversy generated by the press. Throughout 1990 there were many complaints in Panama and in the United States about the number and identity of the casualties, but the Pentagon remained largely oblivious to them. On September 30, 1990, "Sixty Minutes," a news and commentary program of CBS News, carried a segment titled "Victims of Just Cause." The program, anchored by Mike Wallace and produced by Charles C. Thompson II, charged that the Pentagon had deliberately covered up the number of civilian casualties in the invasion.7 It also gave credence to claims of much larger figuresthan those to which the Pentagon has admitted. In this respect, the most significant new detail contributed by Sixty Minutes was an internal Department of Defense document which stated: "The payment of individual combat-related claims under a program similar to the U.S.A. program in Grenada would not be in the best interest of the Department of Defense of the U.S. because of the potentially huge number of such claims."<br>http://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/panama/</p><p>I wont go into the number of unguided bombs and wmd (agent orange) that USAF dropped across SE Asia (Cambodia, Loas, Vietnam); or the 500,000 figure killed as a result of oil for food programme (and Madeline Albright response that it was an acceptable cost; the ex head for oil for food puts the number higher)</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13973977);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13973977">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13973977"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13973977"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13973977" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13974020"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/12/30/khasekhemwy/de98def9-3656-4132-82b6-42ec230e5502/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/khasekhemwy" title="User profile page">khasekhemwy</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 02:11PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13973608">Irishman45, 4 January 2012 01:49PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>You have been banding about a figure of 150,000 for deaths in Libya in your recent posts. Did you witness them all?. Please provide the source for your 150,000 dead in Libya claim who has witnessed them all.</p></blockquote><p>LOL. I believe I have been through this before with BrownMoses. But here we go again. According to the researchers of Lancet:</p><blockquote><p>Aside from Bosnia, we can find no conflict situation where passive surveillance recorded more than 20% of the deaths measured by population-based methods. In several outbreaks, disease and death recorded by facility-based methods underestimated events by a factor of ten or more when compared with population-based estimates. Between 1960 and 1990, newspaper accounts of political deaths in Guatemala correctly reported over 50% of deaths in years of low violence but less than 5% in years of highest violence</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties" rel="nofollow">Lancet report</a></p><p>If it is true that the media has reported only 20% of the deaths in Libya according to the learned researchers of lancet it means my figures are plausible. 30 000 dead has been reported by the media( which according to lancet is passive surveillance) To come to the number 150 000 this is what I did:</p><p>no. of actual deaths = no. of deaths recorded by passive surveillance * 20% inverted</p><p> which is</p><p>150 000= 30 000 * 100/20</p><p>This is a method based on long years of reasearch and study by Lancet. their credentials I have reason to believe are much more impressive than the social media activists who are keeping tap of what is it by now 5000, syrians now all murdered by Assad, with not a single victim verified. According to wiki:</p><blockquote><p>The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is one of the world's best known, oldest, and most respected general medical journals.[1] The Lancet was founded in 1823 by Thomas Wakley, an English surgeon who named it after the surgical instrument called a lancet, as well as after the term "lancet arch",[citation needed] a window with a sharp pointed arch, to indicate the "light of wisdom" or "to let in light". It publishes original research articles, review articles ("seminars" and "reviews"), editorials, book reviews, correspondence, as well as news features and case reports. The Lancet has been owned by Elsevier since 1991. As of 1995, the editor-in-chief is Richard Horton. The journal has editorial offices in London, New York, and Beijing.</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet" rel="nofollow">The Lancet Report</a></p><p>You stick to the scientific experts on tweeter facebook and Youtube & I will stick with lancet. You better get used to me using that number of 150 000; unless there is a Lancet report carried out in Libya to prove otherwise am gonna keep using it.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974020);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13974020">2</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13974020"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13974020"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" 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first, he was a non-runner and hadnt solid base, its like secularists voting in MB in Eygpt as they dont want salafists, true, but that isnt the reason the MB won and won convincingly (and looking to get an outright majority)</p><p>I agree with you that Obama looks safe against GoP (its a really weak field, 2016 or 20 will be interesting and whether we are to see a President Petreaus) </p><p>getting back to MENA, I posted before that the only impact I can forsee US elections (as focus will be primarily economy despite Ron Paul trying to shift the debate) will be if any GoP candidates can leavage Iran and Syria as sign off weakness on Obama (weak on dictators and terrorists); as he has cleared the decks for Iraq and Afgahanistan (he kept his promise as contractors in Iraq dont count, and we created a stable Afghan govt, so stable that we are now letting Taliban open offices abroad)</p><p>the cynic in me sees ratcheting up of rhetoric in US, you only need a genuinely commited fundementalist like Cheney 'lets bomb Iran'; destroy the drone (wonder if he gave Bush the same advice when US lost a spyplane over China, which they kept and did reverse engineer); or a Bachmann 'lets bomb Russia and China' to see the level of rhethoric, coupled with the highest tension in Gulf of Hormuz, so Obama will want to show he is tough by sending carriers to keep Gulf Hormuz open but by calling Irans bluff, Iran will then be the one looking weak, and hey presto, $200 per barrel</p><p>http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/11/01/101101fa_fact_hersh</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974317);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13974317">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " 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src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/whiskyeyes" title="User profile page">whiskyeyes</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 02:31PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Libya was a country that we helped to invade and it will take years for it to recover from that conflict because of that, who are we to dictate what is right or wrong.<br>We deal with our problems in this country without other countries putting their two penneth worth in, so let those people in Syria sort out their own problems without the interference of other countries, then we won't be blamed by Russia or China for influencing the outcome of any uprising the citizens of that country might take to over throw their leader, their country, their future, their hands.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974370);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13974370">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13974370"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13974370"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a 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href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.youtube.com/user/teamsirte/feed" rel="nofollow">a very interesting Youtube</a> channel where they are documenting the conditions in Sirte, and interview various residents, unfortuantly all in Arabic, but it's good to see someone is trying to document what is going on there now attention is focused elsewhere.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974405);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13974405">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13974405"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13974405"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13974405" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13974486"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/PeterBrit" title="User profile page">PeterBrit</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 02:38PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13970907">BrianWhit, 4 January 2012 11:12AM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>@BrianWhit, I see no problem whatsoever with excluding from standing in the Libyan elections those guilty of genuine crimes such as torture or embezzlement. </p><p>But with the chaotic surrent state of the Libyan justice system, very few have been convicted, but there are plenty of accusations flying around. For instance, Bachmann, an Austrian diplomat whose tweets have been impeccably, if gently and diplomatically, pro-NTC, tweeted yesterday that he has been accused with no evidence of Gaddafi links. And there are, inevitably, stories of people accusing their enemies of being pro-Gaddafi, just to damage them, or of using such accusations to seize properties etc.</p><p>I would also be slightly concerned about banning "opposition members who made peace with Gaddafi". That sounds more like banning people on political rather than criminal grounds. </p><p>I guess some restrictions have to be made, but in a fractured post-civil-war one feels that every effort should be made to spread democracy as widely and inclusively as possible. That after all is the ssence of democracy. I don't like the BNP, but I leave it up to the good sense of the British public to reject them instead of pressing for them to be banned. Really the NTC should try to take the same approach with Gaddafi fans.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974486);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13974486">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13974486"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13974486"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13974486" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13974516"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/snickid" title="User profile page">snickid</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 02:40PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13969775">DrDrug, 4 January 2012 09:40AM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>DrDrug.4 January 2012 09:40AM. Fresh from Turkish PM Tayyip Erdogan hailing a strategic regional partnership with Syria's Assad at their summit on 12 Oct 2010, Erdogan now starts the new year how he means to go on, and courts Hamas in a meeting on Sunday 1st Jan in Instanbul. Hamas, remember, maintains their leadership HQ in Damascus, while the Syrian army shoots Palestinians in Latakia refugee camp.You couldn't make it up.</p></blockquote><p>You did make it up!<br>(or at least you massively misrepresent the situation)</p><p>Turkey has actively supported the Syrian democracy uprising since its start - and now hosts the Syrian opposition: <br>http://www.dawn.com/2011/10/02/syrian-opposition-meets-in-turkey.html</p><p>Erdogan knows that peace between Israel and the Palestinians requires a unified Palestinian side, and therefore persuading Hamas and Fatah to reconcile.</p><p>Hamas is ending its marriage of convenience with the Syrian regime, and is likely to move its external HQ to Cairo: <br>http://www.understandingwar.org/otherwork/isw-brief-hamas-abandon-syria-iran</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974516);return false;">Recommend?</a> 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id="comment-13974561"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/capmint1" title="User profile page">capmint1</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 02:42PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>signs off military dictatorship:</p><p>- stifling freedom of speech<br>- use of electronic surveliiance software<br>- indefinite military detention<br>- torture in covert prison network<br>- military that isnt accoutable to legislature</p><p>those charges doesn just apply to Assad, or SCRAF, or GCC, but also Obama who just signed into law the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA)</p><p>http://www.counterpunch.org/</p><p>Obama was going to use his presidential veto, not as some commentators thought, on humanitarian grounds, but detention would also mean respecting Geneva Convention which meant a possibly future challenge from US or foriegn nationals who get rendered and waterboarded</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974561);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13974561">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13974561"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13974561"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13974561" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13974616"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/11/02/Damntheral/328265a2-be95-405c-b1ae-9f3e09e5ccf4/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Damntheral" title="User profile page">Damntheral</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 02:46PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13974370">whiskyeyes, 4 January 2012 02:31PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>Libya was a country that we helped to invade </p></blockquote><p>Did we now? And who invaded Libya then?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974616);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13974616">2</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13974616"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13974616"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13974616" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13974675"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Irishman45" title="User profile page">Irishman45</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 02:51PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13974020">khasekhemwy, 4 January 2012 02:11PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>If it is true that the media has <b>reported only 20% of the deaths</b> in Libya according to the learned researchers of lancet it means my figures are plausible. 30 000 dead has been reported by the media( which according to lancet is passive surveillance) To come to the number 150 000 this is what I did:</p><p>no. of actual deaths = <b>no. of deaths recorded by passive surveillance * 20% inverted</b></p><p>which is</p><p>150 000= 30 000 * 100/20</p></blockquote><p>Well then with media reporting 5,000 deaths in Syria. I guess the actual figure by your logic then is 25,000.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974675);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13974675">2</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13974675"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13974675"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13974675" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13974867"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/donrijo" title="User profile page">donrijo</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 03:03PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>In Egypt it dont matter who wins the election the military will still be in power</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13974867);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13974867">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13974867"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13974867"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13974867" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13975155"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/12/30/khasekhemwy/de98def9-3656-4132-82b6-42ec230e5502/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/khasekhemwy" title="User profile page">khasekhemwy</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 03:21PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13974561">capmint1, 4 January 2012 02:42PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>signs off military dictatorship:</p><p>- stifling freedom of speech<br>- use of electronic surveliiance software<br>- indefinite military detention<br>- torture in covert prison network<br>- military that isnt accoutable to legislature</p><p>those charges doesn just apply to Assad, or SCRAF, or GCC, but also Obama who just signed into law the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA)</p><p>http://www.counterpunch.org/</p><p>Obama was going to use his presidential veto, not as some commentators thought, on humanitarian grounds, but detention would also mean respecting Geneva Convention which meant a possibly future challenge from US or foriegn nationals who get rendered and waterboarded</p></blockquote><p>hello capmint1. I was worried For a minute there. I thought you were speaking about the New Libya! But seriously the reason why Obama is so much more dangerous than Bush was that Bush was so easy to hate or so easy to oppose; but with Obama how are people suppose to oppose a noble nobel peace laureate who has increased drone strikes exponentially more than Bush; who invaded Libya at the snap of a finger comapared to the long and careful and deliberte distortions and manipulations of George Bush in regards to Iraq. Obama also looks set to start a war with iran which may well lead to world war 3. Even today there are certain countries that Bush cannot go to because of the threat of being arrested. I suspect Obama will never have to worry about such a thing. And further more under Bush there was chance of the Patriot act being repealed, because the man inspired such heated oppossition and hatred among Liberals; but then Obama, the Noble Nobel Prince of Peace, the closest thing the world could ever get to Jesus came into office and guranteed that the Patriot Act would become the law of the Land. here is David Bromwich less than 2 years into Obama's presidency prophesying the nightmare:</p><p> <br></p><blockquote><p>Is it too soon to speak of the Bush-Obama presidency?<br> <br>The record shows impressive continuities between the two administrations, and nowhere more than in the policy of “force projection” in the Arab world. With one war half-ended in Iraq, but another doubled in size and stretching across borders in Afghanistan; with an expanded program of drone killings and black-ops assassinations, the latter glorified in special ceremonies of thanksgiving (as they never were under Bush); with the number of prisoners at Guantanamo having decreased, but some now slated for permanent detention; with the repeated invocation of “state secrets” to protect the government from charges of war crimes; with the Patriot Act renewed and its most dubious provisions left intact -- the Bush-Obama presidency has sufficient self-coherence to be considered a historical entity with a life of its own.</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bromwich/symptoms-of-the-bushobama_b_930260.html" rel="nofollow">Symptoms of the Bush-Obama Presidency</a></p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13975155);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13975155">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13975155"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13975155"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13975155" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13975232"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/08/19/BrownMoses/1bc88f57-6fd7-4638-95b3-a8725bb657f8/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/BrownMoses" title="User profile page">BrownMoses</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 03:26PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>France24 has a good blog post about the growing protests in Libya against the NTC, <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://observers.france24.com/content/20120104-benghazi-protests-grow-non-democratic-practices-libya-new-leadership-ntc-national-transitional-council" rel="nofollow">Protests grow over the “non-democratic practices” of Libya’s new leadership</a>.</p><blockquote><p>Since mid-December, demonstrations against the National Transitional Council (NTC) have been organised all over Libya, including Benghazi, the first town to rise up against the former regime. After the enthusiasm of the first few months, Libyans are now demanding that the new government become more transparent and that it dissolve the armed militias that were formed during the revolution.</p></blockquote> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13975232);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13975232">1</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13975232"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13975232"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13975232" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-13975238"> <li class="comment-author" id="end-of-comments"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/sjxt" title="User profile page">sjxt</a> <p class="date">4 January 2012 03:26PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13971702">hrwaldram, 4 January 2012 12:06PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Personally I think BrownMoses does a pretty good job - no, a brilliant job - on Libya on this thread. </p><p>But I agree a bit more ATL would not go amiss. How about getting the excellent Al Ameri to do a piece 6 months' on, so to speak, about how he sees the state of Libya today; to what extent it has lived up to his hope and what are his main concerns at this point in tome.....?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(13975238);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-13975238">0</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/13975238"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-13975238"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/13975238" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <ul class="discussion-pagination b3"> <li class="view-latest"><a data-nav-type="latest" href="?commentpage=last#end-of-comments">Latest</a></li> <li>1</li> <li class="view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=2#start-of-comments">2</a></li> <li class="last view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=2#start-of-comments">Next</a></li> <li class="last view-all"><a data-nav-type="all" href="?commentpage=all#start-of-comments">All</a></li> </ul> <div id="post-area"> <div id="login-container"> <a class="anchor-based-login-required policy-required-basicCommunity fancy-button fancy-button-inline" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/article-redirect/3130565">Sign in to comment</a> or <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/https://id.guardian.co.uk/register?returnUrl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/article-redirect/3130565" title="Click to register" class="signin register-required">create your Guardian account</a> to join the conversation </div> </div> <script type="text/javascript"> jQ(document).ready(function(){ // check jQuery UI hasn't been loaded in by a microapp. short-term fix. if (!jQuery.ui) { jQ.getScript('http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://resource.guim.co.uk/discussion/static/1770/jquery-ui-1.7.3.custom.min.js'); } }); </script> <script type="text/javascript"> function fix_domain_for_careers(url){ var re, fixed_url; var careers_length = "careers".length; if (window.location.host.substr(0, careers_length) === "careers") { re = /http:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20120104185315\/http:\/\/www\./; fixed_url = url.replace(re, "http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://careers."); } else { re = /http:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20120104185315\/http:\/\/careers\./; fixed_url = url.replace(re, "http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www."); } return fixed_url; } jQ(function() { fixPluckCommentUrl('http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/api/resolvePluckCommentKey?pluck-comment-keys=&callback='); var loading_box = jQ("<div class='report-form-loading'>Loading</div>"); jQ('a.report-abuse:not(.no-abuse-popup)').live('click', function(ev) { ev.preventDefault(); loading_box.dialog({ title: "Abuse report", draggable: false, modal: true, width: 400, minHeight: 320, resizable: false, beforeclose: function(event, ui) { var readOnly = jQ('.report-abuse-ajax-readonly').length; if(readOnly == 1) return true; var reason = jQ('.report-abuse-ajax-form textarea#id_reason').val(); var thanksPage = jQ('.report-form-loading p[data-abuse-report-accepted-for-comment]').length; if (thanksPage == 0) { thanksPage = jQ('.report-form-loading p[data-abuse-report-accepted-for-profile]').length; } if(thanksPage == 0) { if(reason == 0) { return true; } else { return confirm("Closing this window without pressing \"Report\" will result in your words being lost. 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With no access to money and facing legal difficulties in selling oil, the rebels' political body — known as...</p> <div class="attribution"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://friday-lunch-club.blogspot.com/favicon.ico" class="favicon-image" width="16" height="16" rel="x8"/> From "friday-lunch-club" </div> </li> </ul> </li> <li> <ul> <li class="rss-date">3 Jan 2012</li> <li><h3><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://xrdarabia.org/2012/01/03/irans-threat-to-the-strait-of-hormuz/">Iran’s Threat to the Strait of Hormuz</a></h3></li> <li> <p>Retired Royal Saudi Navy Commodore Abdulateef Al-Mulhim writes about the threat of Iran closing off the Strait of Hormuz in his column for Arab News. He notes that Iran does not have the military...</p> <div class="attribution"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://xrdarabia.org/favicon.ico" class="favicon-image" width="16" height="16" rel="x8"/> From Crossroads Arabia </div> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <p class="ft"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.google.com/reader/shared/user%2F05235022677739709044%2Fstate%2Fcom.google%2Fstarred">Latest from the blogs</a></p></div></div> <style> .m-zeitgeist .bd { float: left } /* for the IE6 lols */ .m-zeitgeist .hd { padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: -12px} .m-zeitgeist .hd h2 { padding-bottom: 12px; } .m-zeitgeist #att-panes { background-color: #fff; float: left; } .m-zeitgeist .att-toggle-pane { min-width:280px; } .m-zeitgeist ol { padding: 0 5px; } .m-zeitgeist #most-zeitgeist ol { padding-left: 0; } .m-zeitgeist .zg-date { color: #D61D00; padding-left:5px; padding-top: 5px; } .m-zeitgeist ol li { clear: both; padding-left: 15px; } .m-zeitgeist div#att-most-viewed ol li.l1, .m-zeitgeist div#att-latest ol li.l1 { padding-bottom: 9px !important; 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</script>  <div class="m-zeitgeist promo-component four-col attention-data"> <div class="hd"> <h3>On World news</h3> </div> <div class="bd"> <div id="att-toggle"> <ul class="tabs"> <li> <a class="active" href="#att-most-viewed">Most viewed</a> </li> <li> <a class="inactive" href="#most-zeitgeist">Zeitgeist</a> </li> <li> <a class="inactive" href="#att-latest">Latest</a> </li> </ul> <div id="att-panes"> <div class="att-tabs att-toggle-pane" id="att-most-viewed"> <p class="b2 zg-date">Last 24 hours</p> <ol> <li class="l1 thumb"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2012/1/3/1325626190639/Iowa-caucuses-003.jpg"/> <span class="rank">1. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/iowa-caucus-results-live-coverage">Iowa caucus results: as it happened</a> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">2. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/03/taliban-leaders-guantanamo-bay-deal">Taliban leaders held at Guantánamo Bay to be released in peace talks deal</a> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">3. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/03/german-president-threat-bild-editor">German president urged to resign over threats to newspaper editor</a> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">4. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/iowa-results-rick-santorum-live">Iowa caucus results: Rick Santorum presses on to New Hampshire</a> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">5. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/03/badger-baiting-on-increase">Badger baiting has been outlawed since 1835 – so why is it making a comeback?</a> </li> <li class="more-most-viewed l1 footer"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/most-viewed/world">More most viewed</a> </li> </ol> </div> <div class="att-tabs att-toggle-pane initially-off" id="most-zeitgeist"> <p class="b2 zg-date">Last 24 hours</p> <ol> <li class="l1 news fade-1"> <div class="zeit-link"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/iowa-caucus-results-live-coverage">Iowa caucus results: as it happened</a></div> </li> <li class="l1 news fade-2"> <div class="zeit-link"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/iowa-results-rick-santorum-live">Iowa caucus results: Rick Santorum presses on to New Hampshire</a></div> </li> <li class="l1 news fade-3"> <div class="zeit-link"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jan/04/syria-egypt-middle-east-unrest-live-updates">Syria, Egypt and Middle East unrest - live updates</a></div> </li> <li class="l1 news fade-4"> <div class="zeit-link"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2011/mar/22/middle-east-protest-interactive-timeline">Arab spring: an interactive timeline of Middle East protests</a></div> </li> <li class="l1 news fade-5"> <div class="zeit-link"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/aum-tokyo-makoto-hirata-sarin">Aum cult fugitive was turned away from Tokyo police station</a></div> </li> <li class="l1 footer about-zeit"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/zeitgeist">More zeitgeist</a> <img class="what-is" alt="What is Zeigeist?" title="" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/microapps/zeitgeist/about-zeitgeist.gif"/> <div id="zeit-popup" class="zeit-popup"> <strong>What is Zeitgeist?</strong> <p>Zeitgeist is an experiment in showing trending news, topics and articles from the Guardian. Find out more in <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/help/insideguardian/2010/feb/03/zeitgeist">our blog post</a>.</p> </div> </li> </ol> </div> <div class="att-tabs att-toggle-pane initially-off" id="att-latest"> <p class="b2 zg-date">Last 24 hours</p> <ol> <li class="l1 thumb"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2012/1/4/1325701518622/Richard-Cordray-Barack-Ob-003.jpg"/> <span class="rank">1. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/obama-names-richard-cordray-consumer">Obama names Richard Cordray as head of new US consumer watchdog</a> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">2. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/disunited-republican-candidates-new-hampshire">Disunited Republicans candidates renew battle in New Hampshire</a> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">3. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/iowa-results-rick-santorum-live">Iowa caucus results: Rick Santorum presses on to New Hampshire</a> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">4. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jan/04/syria-egypt-middle-east-unrest-live-updates">Syria, Egypt and Middle East unrest - Wednesday 4 January</a> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">5. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/paypal-buyer-destroys-violin">PayPal accused of 'making' dissatisfied buyer smash antique violin</a> </li> <li class="more-latest l1 footer"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/all">All today's stories</a> </li> </ol> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="promo-component playable-only"> <div class="hd"> <h3> Audio from our reporters </h3> </div> <div class="bd"> <ul> <li> <div id="interactive-16753305" class="flash"> <object data="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://boos.audioboo.fm/swf/playlist_player.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" height="233" width="300"><param name="movie" value="http://boos.audioboo.fm/swf/playlist_player.swf"><param name="scale" value="noscale"><param name="salign" value="TL"><param name="align" value="left"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><param name="wmode" value="transparent"><param name="quality" value="best"><param name="FlashVars" value="rssURL=http://audioboo.fm/channels/85842.atom"><param name="loop" value="false"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="false"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://audioboo.fm/channel/middle-east-live-blog">Listen on audioboo.fm!</a></object> </div> <div class="trail-caption media-above"> <div class="linktext"> <strong></strong> </div> <div class="trailtext"> </div> </div> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <div class="reader-offers promo-component"> <div class="hd"> <h3>Bestsellers from the Guardian shop</h3> </div> <div class="bd"> <ul> <li class="inline-pic"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianoffers.co.uk/mall/productpage.cfm/GuardianOffers/E924/408188" class="link-image"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://www.guardianoffers.co.uk/mall/GOSelective/customerimages/products/t_E924.jpg" alt="Mighty Ice Grips (for heeled shoes)"/> </a></li> <li><p class="t6"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianoffers.co.uk/mall/productpage.cfm/GuardianOffers/E924/408188">Mighty Ice Grips (for heeled shoes)</a></p></li> <li><p>Just slip them over your shoes for safe walking on ice, snow or sleet.</p></li> <li><p class="price">From: £9.95</p></li> </ul> </div> <div class="ft"> <ul> <li><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianoffers.co.uk/">Visit the Guardian reader offers shop</a></li> <li><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/shopping">See all offers and services from the Guardian</a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <style> .m-guardianbookshop .rank { float: left; margin-left: -15px; } .m-guardianbookshop .thumb .rank { margin-left: 0; } .m-guardianbookshop h4 { border-top: none !important; font-weight: bold; margin-left: 5px !important; padding: 5px 0 8px 0 !important; } .m-guardianbookshop .bestsellers { background-color: #fff; padding-bottom: 17px;} .m-guardianbookshop ol { padding: 0 5px; } .m-guardianbookshop .l1 { clear: both; padding-left: 15px; } .m-guardianbookshop .thumb { padding-left: 0; } .m-guardianbookshop .thumb img { float: left; margin: 2px 10px 9px 0;} .m-guardianbookshop .price { display: inline; } .m-guardianbookshop .thumb .price { display: block; } .m-guardianbookshop .rank, .m-guardianbookshop .book-title { font-weight: bold; } .m-guardianbookshop input { border: 1px solid #999; width: 75%; min-height: 16px; margin-top: 8px; padding: 3px 2px;} </style> <div class="m-guardianbookshop promo-component"> <div class="hd"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/"><img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://resource.guim.co.uk/global/static/proxy?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgu-books.appspot.com%2Fimg%2Flogo-guardian-bookshop.png" alt="Guardian Bookshop" title=""/></a> </h3> </div> <div class="bd"> <div class="bestsellers"> <h4>This week's bestsellers</h4> <ol> <li class="l1 thumb"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://resource.guim.co.uk/books/gubookshop/thumbnail/images.bertrams.com/ProductImages/services/GetImage?Source=BERT&Quality=WEB&EAN13=9780500238875&Component=FRONTCOVER" title="Bigger Message"/> <span class="rank">1. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/BerteShopWeb/viewProduct.do?ISBN=9780500238875" class="book-title">Bigger Message</a> <p> by Martin Gayford <span class="price">£18.95</span> </p> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">2. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/BerteShopWeb/viewProduct.do?ISBN=9780099565949" class="book-title">Stop What You're Doing and Read This!</a> <p> <span class="price">£4.99</span> </p> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">3. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/BerteShopWeb/viewProduct.do?ISBN=9780852652435" class="book-title">Send Up the Clowns</a> <p> by Simon Hoggart <span class="price">£8.99</span> </p> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">4. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/BerteShopWeb/viewProduct.do?ISBN=9780852652305" class="book-title">Cyclebabble</a> <p> by James Randerson & Peter Walker <span class="price">£7.99</span> </p> </li> <li class="l1"> <span class="rank">5. </span> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/BerteShopWeb/viewProduct.do?ISBN=9781846140556" class="book-title">Thinking Fast and Slow</a> <p> by Daniel Kahneman <span class="price">£25.00</span> </p> </li> </ol> </div> <div class="search"> <p> Search the Guardian bookshop </p> <form method="POST" action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/BerteShopWeb/search.do" name="QuickSearchForm"> <input type="text" class="searchBox" value="" name="keyword"> <button class="searchBtn" type="submit"> <span class="searchText">Search</span> </button> <input type="hidden" value="" name="author"> </form> </div> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-calendar component"> <h4 class="t6 b2">Middle East Live weekly archives</h4> <div id="calendar-container" class="bd"> <table title="Calendar for January" summary="Calendar for January" id="calendar"> <thead> <tr> <th colspan="7" scope="col"> <strong class="month">Jan 2012</strong> <a title="Previous month" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/dec/26/week" class="previous"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/static/11a6ce7c061cb1c6a45a60f21609f9213696019e/common/images/calendar/arrow_left.png" alt="Previous" height="18" width="19"/> </a> </th> </tr> <tr class="month-nav"> <th scope="col" title="Monday" class="first">M</th> <th scope="col" title="Tuesday">T</th> <th scope="col" title="Wednesday">W</th> <th scope="col" title="Thursday">T</th> <th scope="col" title="Friday">F</th> <th scope="col" title="Saturday">S</th> <th scope="col" title="Sunday" class="last">S</th> </tr> </thead> <tbody> <tr class=" has-links "> <td class="not-this-month first">26</td> <td class="not-this-month ">27</td> <td class="not-this-month ">28</td> <td class="not-this-month ">29</td> <td class="not-this-month ">30</td> <td class="not-this-month ">31</td> <td class="last"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/dec/26/week">1</a></td> </tr> <tr class=" has-links "> <td class="first"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jan/02/week">2</a></td> <td><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120104185315/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jan/02/week">3</a></td> <td>4</td> <td>5</td> <td>6</td> <td>7</td> <td class="last">8</td> </tr> <tr class=" "> <td class="first">9</td> <td>10</td> <td>11</td> <td>12</td> <td>13</td> <td>14</td> <td class="last">15</td> </tr> <tr class=" "> <td class="first">16</td> <td>17</td> <td>18</td> <td>19</td> <td>20</td> <td>21</td> <td class="last">22</td> </tr> <tr class=" "> <td class="first">23</td> <td>24</td> <td>25</td> <td>26</td> <td>27</td> <td>28</td> <td class="last">29</td> </tr> <tr class=" "> <td class="first">30</td> <td>31</td> <td class="not-this-month ">1</td> <td class="not-this-month ">2</td> <td class="not-this-month ">3</td> <td class="not-this-month ">4</td> <td class="not-this-month last">5</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </div> </div> <div class="promo-component json-features x31 four-col" style="display: none;"> <div class="hd"> <h3>Sponsored feature</h3> </div> <div class="bd inline-pic"> <a href="" class="link-image"><img width="130" height="121" alt=""/></a> <div id="x31" class=" hide-on-popup"> <div id="ad-placeholder-x31"></div> </div> <span class="x31-script-placeholder"></span> <script> function showSponsoredFeaturex31(){ if (window.sponJSON) { if(typeof(sponJSON) === 'object') { adx31 = sponJSON; var node = jQ('.json-features.x31'); convertJSONtoAd( node.find('img:first-child'), node.find('a.t6'), node.find('p:last-child'), adx31, node.find('.hd').children().eq(0), 'x31' ); } 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