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Ask Code Switch: What makes a good race question? : Code Switch : NPR
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You're listening to Ask CODE SWITCH. I'm Lori Lizarraga. This is it. We're here. It's Monday. And you're listening to the CODE SWITCH brainchild that has been a series on the show for years where we tackle your uncomfortable situations and hard-to-ask questions about race and identity. That's right, kids. It's Ask CODE SWITCH. But this time, she's headlining. Instead of tackling a few Ask CODE SWITCH questions on the show from time to time, this fall, we're dedicating a whole episode on our feed every week to answering your questions. Questions like...<p><p>UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: How do I come out to my Filipino family as vegan?<p><p>UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: Is it problematic if my white son plays video games as a Black character?<p><p>UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: Are bike lanes...<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF BELL RINGING)<p><p>UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: ...White lanes?<p><p>LIZARRAGA: And the age-old classic...<p><p>UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: Who's supposed to wash the dishes?<p><p>LIZARRAGA: So let's get into it.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Today on Ask CODE SWITCH, we prepare to answer your questions with a crash course into the world of race advice.<p><p>GUSTAVO ARELLANO: People want answers. Whether they like them or not doesn't matter. And that's why columnists have always had the followings that they have.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: First, I talk with Gustavo Arellano, the controversial columnist behind "¡Ask A Mexican!," who was trolling trolls with his satirical race advice before Twitter even existed.<p><p>ARELLANO: And it used to be, I loved your column. Now it's, my dad loved your column.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: And then I sit down with a slightly more modern-day solutions-oriented advice giver.<p><p>JENEE DESMOND-HARRIS: I want to talk to humans about their interactions rather than just sharing theories about the world.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Jenee Desmond-Harris has been the woman behind the advice column at Slate Magazine and the voice of "Dear Prudence" on the podcast since 2021.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: So I prefer, I'm having this dilemma with my cousin. How do I handle it at Christmas? - over, explain why there's no White History Month.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: OK, got it.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: I'll pass.<p><p>(LAUGHTER)<p><p>LIZARRAGA: I'll talk with Jenee and Gustavo about what makes a good answer and what makes a bad question. That's today on Ask CODE SWITCH. We'll be right back.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LIZARRAGA: I'm Lori. This is Ask CODE SWITCH. OK, let's get into these two very different approaches to answering questions about race with the advice columnists behind "Dear Prudence" and "¡Ask A Mexican!", starting with the Mexican.<p><p>First of all, I'm surprised that you and I haven't met.<p><p>ARELLANO: No. You're NPR. I'm just a lowly metro reporter with the Los Angeles Times.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Dios mio.<p><p>ARELLANO: Columnista, to be specific.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: (Laughter).<p><p>Gustavo Arellano still covers race, among other things, as a columnist for the LA Times. But today, he's still best known for the satirical race advice column "¡Ask A Mexican!" His unapologetic approach is what made it so popular and controversial over its nearly 13-year run.<p><p>ARELLANO: People hated it. People loved it. Latinos hated it. Latinos loved it. White people hated it. White people loved it.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: So talk to me about how the column got started. I hear tell this was, like, sort of a joke in the beginning, no?<p><p>ARELLANO: Yeah, it was a total joke. So my editor at the time - he got an idea. He said, a lot of people have questions about Mexicans, and they don't know who to go to. So why don't we do a column where people ask you questions, and you answer them? And since it was supposed to be an advice column, I thought of the great advice columnists of the past - at least my generation - "Dear Abby," Ann Landers.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Yeah, yeah.<p><p>ARELLANO: And so I had to start with Dear Mexican. I mean, it - look, if you're going to satire, you better satire.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Yeah.<p><p>ARELLANO: I thought, OK, it's going to be a fake column, so let's just do, oh, hey, if you want to ask questions, go for it. I opened up the hell gates to America's obsession with Mexicans.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: (Laughter).<p><p>ARELLANO: Thursday morning, 11 o'clock I already had 50 questions. I go back to my editor, and I tell him, hey, we have all these questions. What do I do with them? And he said, answer them. Let's do this column until there's no more questions to be answered. And the questions never stop.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: What are some of the most memorable questions that you got? Memorable good, memorable bad, memorable...<p><p>ARELLANO: Good memorable, bad memorable. Well, look, I could tell you the three most asked questions.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Yeah.<p><p>ARELLANO: Why do Mexicans like to swim with their clothes on?<p><p>LIZARRAGA: (Laughter).<p><p>ARELLANO: I know. Second was, what part of illegal don't Mexicans understand?<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Love that one.<p><p>ARELLANO: And the most asked one, though - why do so many Mexicans love - and then insert the name of your favorite English-language musical act here. Why do Mexicans love Morrissey so much? Why do Mexicans love Led Zeppelin? Why do...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Oh, my God. So true, though.<p><p>ARELLANO: ...Mexicans love death metal?<p><p>LIZARRAGA: We love rock, man.<p><p>ARELLANO: And I have answers for all of them, by the way. Foolish question, foolish answer - Mexicans swim with their clothes on because Mexicans historically have been modest, Mexico being a Catholic country.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: That is such a funny thing that I don't even know to ask...<p><p>ARELLANO: Yeah.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: ...Because it's - it just is.<p><p>ARELLANO: It just is. Exactly. The second one - what part of illegal don't Mexicans understand? Yeah. It's - we don't understand 'cause Mexicans only speak Spanish.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: (Speaking Spanish).<p><p>ARELLANO: And then the last one - why do Mexicans love, you know, insert the name here? I mean, Americans do not understand. How could Mexicans like something that did not involve tubas or accordions?<p><p>LIZARRAGA: (Laughter).<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: There are no right answers with advice, right?<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Jenee Desmond-Harris, or "Dear Prudence," tackles her advice a little differently.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: And you have to remember that these people who are writing to you - they're writing in because they trust your sensibilities, your perspective, your values.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Before she was Prudie, Jenee was at the helm of "Race Manners," an advice column she pioneered at The Root and eventually took to The New York Times opinion section. So she's got a lot of experience confronting questions, particularly about race.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: So this was a Black person who wrote in and confessed that they were having trouble distinguishing between their Asian American colleagues who, they said, quote-unquote, "had very similar features." And they really were asking, am I a bad person for this? Is it my fault? What does it mean about me?<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Wow.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: Am I racist? And I was able to say to them, you know, I get it. This is common with people looking at people from other racial groups all the time.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: And I would be remiss if I didn't also add, like, join the club. Growing up in Texas, my dad was constantly reminding me, I can't tell your boyfriends apart.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: Yeah.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: And I was like, OK, well, A, there aren't that many...<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: (Laughter).<p><p>LIZARRAGA: ...'Cause you don't let me have them.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: Yeah.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: But also the point being, he was saying all these white Texas young high school students looked the same. And in his defense, you know, there was a type.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: Yeah. I even said that after going to a historically Black college and then going to law school, where I had a lot of white classmates, I kind of had a little bit of a hard time distinguishing between all the white guys with brown hair who would wear a blue button-up shirt and khakis.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Totally.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: Meanwhile, they were like, hi, Jenee. And I was like, you know my name? You're just...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: (Laughter).<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: You're one of a sea of similar faces to me. So...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: So, like, we've been there. Yeah.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: Yeah. The first thing I did for the letter writer was try to comfort them a little bit emotionally. But in the next step, I did interview the psychologist who talked about something called the cross-race effect, which has been studied around the world, especially in contexts like the criminal justice system. She explained that when you're looking at people in a, quote-unquote, "out-group," a group of people who you don't see a lot or a group that you don't belong to...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Yeah.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: ...You can have a hard time distinguishing between them if you're mentally primarily identifying them as a member of the out-group. And so the solution was really just to change your thinking to be aware of this phenomenon and to really force yourself to look at people's individual qualities instead of just their group membership. So it's almost a psychological trick you play on yourself.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Totally.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: So I was able to give the letter writer some comfort emotionally, a toolbox to do better and then a charge to say, even though what you're experiencing is common, it doesn't mean that you have to be OK with it or just accept it.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Do you ever wish with "Dear Prudence" that you could reach out to an expert like you describe or, like, you know, a phone-a-friend type of situation before you approach a question or give advice?<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: Yeah. And actually, occasionally, I will. So my theory about an advice column in the year 2024 is that none of us make any decisions in life without looking at something on the internet, right?<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Totally.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: So what I'll do sometimes, especially if it speaks to an experience around race and identity that I haven't personally had, and if I just have that inkling that I may not be getting this completely, I'll look for people who can personally relate or have concrete experience and sort of integrate their experiences into my responses. So...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: I love that.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: ...One like that was a white man who was engaged to or married to - I can't remember - an Indian American woman. And they had a great relationship, and his parents actually loved his partner. But his issue was that they were kind of obsessed with her being Indian. Not in a negative way...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Oh, sure.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: ...But it's all they wanted to talk about.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Like a fetishizing way.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: Yeah. Every conversation had something to do with India or her culture...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Sure, sure.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: ...Or the food or the music or the dress. And he just felt they weren't really seeing her as a person, and he wanted to know how to approach it.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Yeah, yeah.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: So it was one of those interesting questions where there was no villain, and everyone meant well, but the situation needed to improve.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Right.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: And again, I want to give concrete advice. I don't just want to say, your parents need to do better or spend less time with them. So I reached out to readers, and I was able to hear from several people who were in similar relationships, who were able to share with me what they had done to sort of retrain their white parents.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Wow. No kidding.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: So, I remember one idea was to seriously ask your parents, how would you like it if every time my fiancée talked to you, she mentioned your whiteness? You know? Oh, wow. Nice dinner. Is this a white cultural tradition? You know, this must be...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Yeah, yeah (laughter).<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: ...Really something your white grandparents taught you. It's fascinating. Oh, we're going outside. I know you're white. Do you need sunscreen? Like (laughter)...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: I'm so secondhand embarrassed by that.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LIZARRAGA: I asked Jenee if she had any advice for me, any last words to send me off into the world of helping people answer some of their most difficult quandaries about race.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: A lot of public discussions about race and identity and culture can be really oversimplified, really flattened...<p><p>LIZARRAGA: So much.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: ...To make it seem as if they're simply all about feelings and emotions.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: Completely.<p><p>DESMOND-HARRIS: A great remedy for that is to bring in some meatier and more concrete data, research. And I'm so excited you're doing this because I think we can never have enough good advice on these topics. So I'm thrilled that there will be more out there, especially coming from your team.<p><p>LIZARRAGA: And I had to circle back with Gustavo to get his advice for me.<p><p>ARELLANO: People are coming to you for advice. That means they're looking for some hope. So always keep that in mind. Be proud that you are doing this, and you have to do it with a swagger. Like, that's not meaning arrogance, but you have to do it with swagger. Say, yes, I am now at the helm of Ask CODE SWITCH. Bring it, folks. (Speaking Spanish).<p><p>LIZARRAGA: (Speaking Spanish).<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LIZARRAGA: And that's our show. You can send us your Ask CODE SWITCH questions on Instagram, @nprcodeswitch. If email's more your thing, ours is codeswitch@npr.org. And subscribe to the podcast on the NPR app or wherever you're listening right now. If you'd like to support our work, you can sign up for CODE SWITCH+. It's small, but it really makes a difference for us, and you get to listen to every CODE SWITCH episode without any ad breaks. You can check it out at plus.npr.org/codeswitch. And thanks to everyone who's already a CODE SWITCH+ subscriber.<p><p>This episode was produced by Schuyler Swenson. It was edited by Courtney Stein. Our engineer was James Willetts. Our fact-checker was Will Chase. And a big thanks to our guests, my friends Jenee and Gustavo, for coming on the show and hyping me up. Finally, a big shoutout to the rest of the CODE SWITCH massive - Christina Cala, Xavier Lopez, Jess Kung, Leah Donnella, Dalia Mortada, Veralyn Williams, Gene Demby and B.A. Parker.<p><p>This is Ask CODE SWITCH. I'm Lori Lizarraga. Call your tio.<p></p> <p class="disclaimer">Copyright © 2024 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website <a href="https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179876898/terms-of-use">terms of use</a> and <a href="https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179881519/rights-and-permissions-information">permissions</a> pages at <a href="https://www.npr.org">www.npr.org</a> for further information.</p> <p class="disclaimer">NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. 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