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November 2024</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna&action=edit&oldid=1258199674" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dachuna">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2024-11-18T17:53:33Z"></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Sawyer777" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Sawyer777" data-mw-revid="1258199674"><bdi>Sawyer777</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sawyer777" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Sawyer777">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sawyer777" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Sawyer777">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_confirmed_editors" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Extended confirmed editors">Extended confirmed users</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:New_pages_patrol/Reviewers" title="Wikipedia:New pages patrol/Reviewers">New page reviewers</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reviewing_pending_changes" title="Wikipedia:Reviewing pending changes">Pending changes reviewers</a></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>7,260</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Dachuna">→<bdi dir="ltr">Dachuna</bdi></a>: </span> reply</span></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle5"><span class="mw-tag-markers"><a href="/wiki/Special:Tags" title="Special:Tags">Tag</a>: <span class="mw-tag-marker mw-tag-marker-convenient-discussions"><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jack_who_built_the_house/Convenient_Discussions" class="extiw" title="c:User:Jack who built the house/Convenient Discussions">CD</a></span></span></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna&diff=prev&oldid=1258199674" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dachuna" id="differences-prevlink">← Previous edit</a></div></td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-ntitle diff-side-added"><div id="mw-diff-ntitle1"><strong><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna&oldid=1258200361" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dachuna">Revision as of 17:58, 18 November 2024</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna&action=edit&oldid=1258200361" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dachuna">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2024-11-18T17:58:16Z"></span> <span class="mw-diff-undo"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna&action=edit&undoafter=1258199674&undo=1258200361" title=""Undo" reverts this edit and opens the edit form in preview mode. It allows adding a reason in the summary.">undo</a></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Deacon of Pndapetzim" data-mw-revid="1258200361"><bdi>Deacon of Pndapetzim</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Deacon of Pndapetzim">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Autopatrolled" title="Wikipedia:Autopatrolled">Autopatrolled</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators" title="Wikipedia:Administrators">Administrators</a></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>39,715</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses">re</span></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle5"></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna&diff=next&oldid=1258200361" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dachuna" id="differences-nextlink">Next edit →</a></div></td> </tr><tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 28:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 28:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>:: It might be useful if people here who aren't historians stop commenting on the historicity of the saint, neither of you know what you are talking about. I don't mean to sound patronising, but the source problems here and the historical issues surrounding the evolution of saints cults are very complex. Also, why would you redirect it to Hugh Candidus? Surely if you were going to delete it you'd just redirect it to [[List of Cornish saints]] or [[List of Anglo-Saxon saints]]?[[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 15:20, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>:: It might be useful if people here who aren't historians stop commenting on the historicity of the saint, neither of you know what you are talking about. I don't mean to sound patronising, but the source problems here and the historical issues surrounding the evolution of saints cults are very complex. Also, why would you redirect it to Hugh Candidus? Surely if you were going to delete it you'd just redirect it to [[List of Cornish saints]] or [[List of Anglo-Saxon saints]]?[[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 15:20, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>:::Funny you should say that, as I ''am'' a historian. You have managed to be patronizing and seem to be taking this AfD far too personally. Your redirect suggestions are inappropriate targets due to the unlikely historicity and singular reference of this purported saint. ~ [[User:Pbritti|Pbritti]] ([[User talk:Pbritti|talk]]) 16:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>:::Funny you should say that, as I ''am'' a historian. You have managed to be patronizing and seem to be taking this AfD far too personally. Your redirect suggestions are inappropriate targets due to the unlikely historicity and singular reference of this purported saint. ~ [[User:Pbritti|Pbritti]] ([[User talk:Pbritti|talk]]) 16:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-empty diff-side-deleted"></td> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td> <td class="diff-addedline diff-side-added"><div>:::: Not taking it personally at all. Why are the redirect suggestions 'inappropriate'? Listen, if you want to call yourself a historian because you did a history degree I'm not going to argue, but my points stands, these issues are specialised and complex, I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings but this is a public encyclopedia used by millions of people and the lack of relevant competence is important....but unfortunately if you don't recognise it yourself pointing it out any further is likely to be a waste of time on my part. [[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 17:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><br /></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><br /></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>*'''Oppose''' - especially if the information from Orme's ''Saints of Cornwall'' is added (which it should be). Yes, it's a sparse article, but that's not exactly unusual in medieval subjects. It is a bit of a borderline case, but yes, there does appear enough for me to consider this worth an article. I do not consider Hugh Candidus a good redirect target - that would imply that Hugh had some connection to this purported saint, where he is just the source. [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] ([[User talk:Ealdgyth|talk]]) 17:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>*'''Oppose''' - especially if the information from Orme's ''Saints of Cornwall'' is added (which it should be). Yes, it's a sparse article, but that's not exactly unusual in medieval subjects. It is a bit of a borderline case, but yes, there does appear enough for me to consider this worth an article. I do not consider Hugh Candidus a good redirect target - that would imply that Hugh had some connection to this purported saint, where he is just the source. [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] ([[User talk:Ealdgyth|talk]]) 17:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> </table><hr class='diff-hr' id='mw-oldid' /> <h2 class='diff-currentversion-title'>Revision as of 17:58, 18 November 2024</h2> <div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Dachuna" data-mw-thread-id="h-Dachuna-20241118150300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Dachuna-20241118150300"></span><a href="/wiki/Dachuna" title="Dachuna">Dachuna</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Dachuna-20241118150300"></span></h3></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sawyer777-20241118150300-Dachuna"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248391630">.mw-parser-output .afd-help{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa);color:var(--color-base,#202122);font-size:88%;line-height:1.5em;padding:0.4em}.mw-parser-output .afd-help .user-show{float:right}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .afd-help{width:24em;clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}.mw-parser-output .afd-help ul{margin-left:2.6em}}</style> <div class="afd-help afd-help-box"> <p><span class="user-show"><a href="/wiki/Template:AFD_help#Hiding_the_box" title="Template:AFD help">[Hide this box]</a></span> New to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion">Articles for deletion</a> (AfD)? Read these primers! </p> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion#Contributing_to_AfD_discussions" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion">How to contribute</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction_to_deletion_process" title="Wikipedia:Introduction to deletion process">Introduction to deletion process</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Guide_to_deletion" title="Wikipedia:Guide to deletion">Guide to deletion</a> (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Guide_to_deletion#Shorthands" title="Wikipedia:Guide to deletion">glossary</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Help:My_article_got_nominated_for_deletion!" title="Help:My article got nominated for deletion!">Help, my article got nominated for deletion!</a></li></ul> </div> <dl><dd><span id="Dachuna"></span><span class="plainlinks nourlexpansion lx"><a href="/wiki/Dachuna" title="Dachuna">Dachuna</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Dachuna" title="Special:EditPage/Dachuna">edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Talk:Dachuna" title="Talk:Dachuna">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Dachuna" title="Special:PageHistory/Dachuna">history</a><span class="sysop-show"> | <a href="/wiki/Special:ProtectPage/Dachuna" title="Special:ProtectPage/Dachuna">protect</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:DeletePage/Dachuna" title="Special:DeletePage/Dachuna">delete</a></span> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Dachuna&limit=999">links</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dachuna&action=watch">watch</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Dachuna">logs</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?pages=Dachuna&project=en.wikipedia.org">views</a>)</span> – (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2024_November_18#Dachuna" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 November 18">View log</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1258001751/cur" title="Special:Diff/1258001751/cur">edits since nomination</a>)</dd> <dd>(<span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22Dachuna%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Dachuna%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22Dachuna%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Dachuna%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&tbs=sur:fmc&tbm=isch&q=%22Dachuna%22+-site:wikipedia.org+-site:wikimedia.org">free images</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cx=007734830908295939403%3Agalkqgoksq0&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3AWikipedia%2520Reference%2520Search&q=%22Dachuna%22">WP refs</a>) <b>·</b> <span title="Free English newspaper sources" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_English_newspaper_sources">FENS</a></span> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Dachuna%22&acc=on&wc=on">JSTOR</a> <b>·</b> <span title="The Wikipedia Library" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/search/?q=%22Dachuna%22">TWL</a></span></span>)</dd></dl> <p>contested PROD. a female Cornish Dachuna is only known from one singular mention by Hugh Candidus in a list of saints' resting places. i checked the Blair source as i have irl access to it, and the heading is "Summary list of late, non-English, or dubious saints who appear in the resting-place lists". according to <a href="/wiki/Nicholas_Orme" title="Nicholas Orme">Nicholas Orme</a>'s <i>Saints of Cornwall</i>, </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1244412712">.mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 32px}.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;margin-top:0}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{padding-left:1.6em}}</style><blockquote class="templatequote"> <p>The reference is presumably to Bodmin Priory, but no evidence survives from there about these saints, apart from Petroc. ... Dachuna is equally elusive in Cornwall, and a similar name in Ireland is male not female. ... In short, there is no certain Cornish context for these names; perhaps Hugh Candidus or his source conflated two places and ascribed saints to Bodmin who rightly belonged elsewhere. </p> </blockquote> <p>there is no evidence that a female Cornish Dachuna ever existed. she is only known from one very dubious passing mention in a medieval source. fails <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GNG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GNG">WP:GNG</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NBIO" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NBIO">WP:NBIO</a>. <span style="color:#507533">... <a href="/wiki/User:Sawyer777" title="User:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">sawyer</span></a> * <small>he/they</small> * <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sawyer777" title="User talk:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">talk</span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Sawyer777-20241118150300-Dachuna" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sawyer777-20241118150300-Dachuna"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sawyer777-20241118150300-Dachuna"></span> </p> <ul><li><small class="delsort-notice"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sawyer777-20241118150300-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span>Note: This discussion has been included in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting">deletion sorting</a> lists for the following topics: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Christianity" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Christianity">Christianity</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/England" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/England">England</a>. <span style="color:#507533">... <a href="/wiki/User:Sawyer777" title="User:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">sawyer</span></a> * <small>he/they</small> * <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sawyer777" title="User talk:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">talk</span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Sawyer777-20241118150300-Sawyer777-20241118150300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sawyer777-20241118150300-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sawyer777-20241118150300-Sawyer777-20241118150300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span>Oppose</b> Some of nominator's reasoning/historical commentary is a bit misguided, a lot of prominent subjects rely on a single source, Beowulf for instance is arguably one of those. Whether the saint itself ever existed as a person, who knows, but the cult did; like arguing Zeus didn't exist so the god's article should be deleted. Even the nomination shows that the subject is of scholarly interest. The saint's cult and commemoration are recorded in one of the major sources of information we have for early English saints. The article is a stub and needs more work, but that doesn't mean the subject isn't notable either. Ironically if the nominator had expended the same energy expanding the article as trying to get it deleted it might not be a stub, some of the info used above could be in the article in expounded form. <a href="/wiki/User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Deacon of Pndapetzim</a> (<small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Talk</a></small>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500-Sawyer777-20241118150300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:15, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500-Sawyer777-20241118150300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sawyer777-20241118152100-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500"></span>that's not what i'm saying, and is entirely beside the point. there <i>is</i> nothing to add to this article, and there is no evidence beyond Hugh Candidus' brief mention that she existed and was buried at Bodmin, let alone that she had a cult or commemoration - scholarly sources, including the one you cited in the article, agree on that. <span style="color:#507533">... <a href="/wiki/User:Sawyer777" title="User:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">sawyer</span></a> * <small>he/they</small> * <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sawyer777" title="User talk:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">talk</span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Sawyer777-20241118152100-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sawyer777-20241118152100-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sawyer777-20241118152100-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118153700-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500"></span>that's not what i'm saying</i> I don't know specifically what 'that' means here, but everything I've said addresses the points you've raised. <i>there </i>is<i> nothing to add to this article</i> How do you know what can be added to the article? Your reasoning is misguided, just because there is only one source doesn't mean there is nothing more to be said. It's also clearly wrong as a statement, you could have added the quote above to the article, for instance, instead of using it here. Again, misspent effort. An established, culted medieval saint is intrinsically notable and there will be more scholarship, either material existing but unused or in the future. I find the logic and motivation here alarming, you would clear out so many important articles on Wikipedia. <a href="/wiki/User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Deacon of Pndapetzim</a> (<small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Talk</a></small>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118153700-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:37, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118153700-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118153700-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118151500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sawyer777-20241118154900-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118153700"></span>this is not an "established, culted medieval saint". that is what the <i>very sparse</i> sourcing says - that this was probably a mistake on Hugh's part. and i know that there is nothing to add because i've looked for good sourcing on this saint, and have come up very short. Dachuna does not even have her own entry in the very, very thorough and authoritative Orme book, nor does she have any dedications, known feast days, or folklore. the <i>only</i> thing we know about this supposed saint is where she was supposedly buried, from one singular passing mention. please do not speculate about my motivations, either. <span style="color:#507533">... <a href="/wiki/User:Sawyer777" title="User:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">sawyer</span></a> * <small>he/they</small> * <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sawyer777" title="User talk:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">talk</span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Sawyer777-20241118154900-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118153700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sawyer777-20241118154900-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118153700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sawyer777-20241118154900-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118153700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118155300-Sawyer777-20241118154900"></span>It might be useful if people here who aren't historians stop commenting on the historicity of the saint, you don't know what you are talking about. Because a commentator speculates that it might be a mistake by Hugh, that's not the last word, we do not have satisfactory let alone exhaustive source coverage of religion in 12th century Cornwall. Also if you did have any kind of expertise on Insular saints cults you'd know that they frequently spawn dopplegangers, gender changes, etc, etc, doesn't mean they are not notable. St Kentigern of Glasgow was likely a gender change, St Ninian of Whithorn is likely a doppleganger/invention (based on recent scholarship). Also, you've made your motivation clear, you are posting here because you want this deleted, right, what's there for me to 'speculate' about? <a href="/wiki/User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Deacon of Pndapetzim</a> (<small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Talk</a></small>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118155300-Sawyer777-20241118154900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118155300-Sawyer777-20241118154900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118155300-Sawyer777-20241118154900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pbritti-20241118151800-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span>Redirect</b> to <a href="/wiki/Hugh_Candidus" title="Hugh Candidus">Hugh Candidus</a> and add mention of these dubious saints there as an AtD. <small>(<a href="/wiki/Help:Edit_conflict" title="Help:Edit conflict">edit conflict</a>)</small> I concur with Sawyer's assessment here that a full article on an almost certainly non-existent saint should not warrant an article when coverage has been so sparse and exclusively focused on the likely falsity of the original claim. However, saint articles have a tendency to reappear due to the general assumption of notability many editors believe they have. A redirect that indicates the spurious origin may stave off any misguided efforts to revive the page. ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Pbritti-20241118151800-Sawyer777-20241118150300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pbritti-20241118151800-Sawyer777-20241118150300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pbritti-20241118151800-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118152000-Pbritti-20241118151800"></span>It might be useful if people here who aren't historians stop commenting on the historicity of the saint, neither of you know what you are talking about. I don't mean to sound patronising, but the source problems here and the historical issues surrounding the evolution of saints cults are very complex. Also, why would you redirect it to Hugh Candidus? Surely if you were going to delete it you'd just redirect it to <a href="/wiki/List_of_Cornish_saints" title="List of Cornish saints">List of Cornish saints</a> or <a href="/wiki/List_of_Anglo-Saxon_saints" title="List of Anglo-Saxon saints">List of Anglo-Saxon saints</a>?<a href="/wiki/User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Deacon of Pndapetzim</a> (<small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Talk</a></small>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118152000-Pbritti-20241118151800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:20, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118152000-Pbritti-20241118151800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118152000-Pbritti-20241118151800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pbritti-20241118163000-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118152000"></span>Funny you should say that, as I <i>am</i> a historian. You have managed to be patronizing and seem to be taking this AfD far too personally. Your redirect suggestions are inappropriate targets due to the unlikely historicity and singular reference of this purported saint. ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Pbritti-20241118163000-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118152000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pbritti-20241118163000-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118152000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pbritti-20241118163000-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118152000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118175800-Pbritti-20241118163000"></span>Not taking it personally at all. Why are the redirect suggestions 'inappropriate'? Listen, if you want to call yourself a historian because you did a history degree I'm not going to argue, but my points stands, these issues are specialised and complex, I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings but this is a public encyclopedia used by millions of people and the lack of relevant competence is important....but unfortunately if you don't recognise it yourself pointing it out any further is likely to be a waste of time on my part. <a href="/wiki/User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Deacon of Pndapetzim</a> (<small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Talk</a></small>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118175800-Pbritti-20241118163000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118175800-Pbritti-20241118163000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118175800-Pbritti-20241118163000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ealdgyth-20241118171900-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span>Oppose</b> - especially if the information from Orme's <i>Saints of Cornwall</i> is added (which it should be). Yes, it's a sparse article, but that's not exactly unusual in medieval subjects. It is a bit of a borderline case, but yes, there does appear enough for me to consider this worth an article. I do not consider Hugh Candidus a good redirect target - that would imply that Hugh had some connection to this purported saint, where he is just the source. <a href="/wiki/User:Ealdgyth" title="User:Ealdgyth">Ealdgyth</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ealdgyth" title="User talk:Ealdgyth">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Ealdgyth-20241118171900-Sawyer777-20241118150300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ealdgyth-20241118171900-Sawyer777-20241118150300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ealdgyth-20241118171900-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pbritti-20241118172200-Ealdgyth-20241118171900"></span>Do you think it might be worth noting that you were canvassed (<span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&diff=prev&oldid=1258179198">diff</a></span>) for participation in this AfD? ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Pbritti-20241118172200-Ealdgyth-20241118171900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:22, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pbritti-20241118172200-Ealdgyth-20241118171900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pbritti-20241118172200-Ealdgyth-20241118171900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ealdgyth-20241118173800-Pbritti-20241118172200"></span>Please note my reply at Deacon's talk page - <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1258197301" title="Special:Diff/1258197301">here</a> addressing my knowing about this AfD before Deacon posted on my talk page. (I've long had Deacon's TP watchlisted - you might note the yearly Saturnalia posts that date back many years for him (and most everyone else where I have their userpages watchlisted) <a href="/wiki/User:Ealdgyth" title="User:Ealdgyth">Ealdgyth</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ealdgyth" title="User talk:Ealdgyth">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Ealdgyth-20241118173800-Pbritti-20241118172200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ealdgyth-20241118173800-Pbritti-20241118172200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ealdgyth-20241118173800-Pbritti-20241118172200"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118174900-Pbritti-20241118172200"></span>Pbritti, you are approaching this the wrong way, we are people with long-established interests in these articles. Ealdgyth isn't going to be 'canvassed' by anyone, let alone me. When I last checked she was one of the main contributors to articles on English Christianity. 10os articles in which she has an interest could be negatively affected by this selective attempt to impose deletionist maximalism on a relevant article. <a href="/wiki/User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Deacon of Pndapetzim</a> (<small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim" title="User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim">Talk</a></small>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118174900-Pbritti-20241118172200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118174900-Pbritti-20241118172200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Deacon_of_Pndapetzim-20241118174900-Pbritti-20241118172200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sawyer777-20241118175300-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span>in the interest of fairness, i have added what little is available from Orme's book. i do not have access to the Jankulak book so i have no idea if there's more information in there. i stand by my nomination for deletion, however; i do not believe this is enough for a standalone article. <span style="color:#507533">... <a href="/wiki/User:Sawyer777" title="User:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">sawyer</span></a> * <small>he/they</small> * <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sawyer777" title="User talk:Sawyer777"><span style="color:#507533">talk</span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna#c-Sawyer777-20241118175300-Sawyer777-20241118150300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sawyer777-20241118175300-Sawyer777-20241118150300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sawyer777-20241118175300-Sawyer777-20241118150300"></span></li></ul></div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna&oldid=1258200361">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dachuna&oldid=1258200361</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:AfD_debates_(Biographical)" title="Category:AfD debates (Biographical)">AfD debates (Biographical)</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:AfD_debates" title="Category:AfD debates">AfD debates</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 18 November 2024, at 17:58<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright"><span class="nowraplinks">This version of the page has been <a href="/wiki/Help:Page_history" title="Help:Page history">revised</a>. 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