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type="application/ld+json" data-testid="canonical-live-video">{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"VideoObject","@id":"https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch/-wholesale-pardons-what-could-trump-decide-to-do-with-jan-6-convicts-225420357902","name":"‘Wholesale pardons’: What could Trump decide to do with Jan 6 convicts?","description":"Former Lead Investigator for the January 6th Select Committee Tim Heaphy, MSNBC Legal Correspondent Lisa Rubin, Staff Writer for The Atlantic Tom Nichols, and New York Times Opinion Columnist David French join Katy Tur to discuss whether or not they believe President-elect Donald Trump will follow through with his word and pardon January 6th rioters.","thumbnailUrl":"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732569553277_n_tur_heaphy_french_rubin_nichols_january_6th_convicts_trump_2401125_1920x1080-x1oi82.jpg","contentUrl":"https://prodamdnewsencoding.akamaized.net/NBC_News_Digital/n_tur_heaphy_french_rubin_nichols_january_6th_convicts_trump_2401125/1/abs/index.m3u8?format=redirect","duration":"PT7M54S","uploadDate":"2024-11-25T21:19:21.000Z","url":"https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch/-wholesale-pardons-what-could-trump-decide-to-do-with-jan-6-convicts-225420357902","transcript":"QUESTIONS WHAT DONALD TRUMP QUESTIONS WHAT DONALD TRUMP MIGHT DO TO THE JANUARY 6th MIGHT DO TO THE JANUARY 6th CONVICTS, WHETHER HE MIGHT CONVICTS, WHETHER HE MIGHT PARDON THEM. PARDON THEM. HE HAS FLIRTED WITH THAT ON THE HE HAS FLIRTED WITH THAT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. CAMPAIGN TRAIL. DOES HE GO THROUGH WITH IT? DOES HE GO THROUGH WITH IT? JOIN US NOW JANUARY 6th SELECT JOIN US NOW JANUARY 6th SELECT COMMITTEE FORMER LEAD COMMITTEE FORMER LEAD INVESTIGATOR, TIM HEAPHY. INVESTIGATOR, TIM HEAPHY. ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. SO I WILL BEGIN WITH YOU. SO I WILL BEGIN WITH YOU. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT DONALD TRUMP WHAT DO YOU EXPECT DONALD TRUMP MIGHT DO WITH ALL OF THOSE WHO MIGHT DO WITH ALL OF THOSE WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL, HAVE BEEN STORMED THE CAPITOL, HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND CONVICTED FOR THEIR ARRESTED AND CONVICTED FOR THEIR CRIMES? CRIMES? ALL I CAN SAY IS HE WILL DO ALL I CAN SAY IS HE WILL DO WHAT HE SAID HE IS GOING TO DO, WHAT HE SAID HE IS GOING TO DO, WHICH IS WHOLESALE PARDONS. WHICH IS WHOLESALE PARDONS. I DON’T KNOW THIS THERE WILL BE I DON’T KNOW THIS THERE WILL BE A PRINCIPLED LINE DRAWN BETWEEN A PRINCIPLED LINE DRAWN BETWEEN SOME OF THESE DEFENDANTS. SOME OF THESE DEFENDANTS. THERE ARE VARYING SHADES OF GRAY THERE ARE VARYING SHADES OF GRAY HERE IN TERMS OF CULPABILITY. HERE IN TERMS OF CULPABILITY. SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY IS VERY SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM TRESPASSING. DIFFERENT FROM TRESPASSING. I AM HOPEFUL THERE WILL BE I AM HOPEFUL THERE WILL BE DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THEM AS DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THEM AS OPPOSED TO A BLANKET PARDON OF OPPOSED TO A BLANKET PARDON OF EVERY JANUARY 6th DEFENDANT EVERY JANUARY 6th DEFENDANT BEING PARDONED. BEING PARDONED. THESE WERE SERIOUS, HORRIFIC THESE WERE SERIOUS, HORRIFIC CRIMES. CRIMES. CRIMES AGAINST THE VERY SEAT OF CRIMES AGAINST THE VERY SEAT OF GOVERNMENT. GOVERNMENT. AND THE LAWFUL PROCESS OF THE AND THE LAWFUL PROCESS OF THE CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION. CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION. SO MY HOPE IS THAT AS MANY OF SO MY HOPE IS THAT AS MANY OF THOSE CONVICTIONS PLEAS AND THOSE CONVICTIONS PLEAS AND FINDINGS BY JURIES STAND, BUT, FINDINGS BY JURIES STAND, BUT, AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT-ELECT HAS AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT-ELECT HAS SAID REPEATEDLY THAT THESE ARE SAID REPEATEDLY THAT THESE ARE PATRIOTS OR POLITICAL PRISONERS, PATRIOTS OR POLITICAL PRISONERS, THAT THEY DESERVE OUR THANKS, THAT THEY DESERVE OUR THANKS, NOT OUR CRITICAL CONVICTION AND NOT OUR CRITICAL CONVICTION AND CONDEMNATION. CONDEMNATION. SO I DON’T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY HE SO I DON’T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY HE WILL DO. WILL DO. TIM, YOU ARE SO INTIMATE WITH TIM, YOU ARE SO INTIMATE WITH THE EVIDENCE THAT THE JANUARY THE EVIDENCE THAT THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE COMPILED FOR THE 6th COMMITTEE COMPILED FOR THE HEARINGS, INCLUDING ALL OF THOSE HEARINGS, INCLUDING ALL OF THOSE VIDEOS, SO OF VIDEO OF WHAT VIDEOS, SO OF VIDEO OF WHAT HAPPENED ON THE CAPITOL ON THAT HAPPENED ON THE CAPITOL ON THAT DAY, WHAT THE RIOTERS WERE DAY, WHAT THE RIOTERS WERE DOING, WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, DOING, WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, WHO THEY WERE ATTRIBUTING THEIR WHO THEY WERE ATTRIBUTING THEIR MOVEMENTS TO. MOVEMENTS TO. JUST WHEN YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT JUST WHEN YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT WHAT DONALD TRUMP MIGHT DO COME WHAT DONALD TRUMP MIGHT DO COME JANUARY WITH THESE FOLKS RIGHT JANUARY WITH THESE FOLKS RIGHT HERE, WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU IN HERE, WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU IN TERMS OF WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE TERMS OF WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE AND WHAT THEIR INTENTION WAS? AND WHAT THEIR INTENTION WAS? WELL, THE FIRST OF ALL, THERE WELL, THE FIRST OF ALL, THERE WAS A FALSE NARRATIVE THAT THE WAS A FALSE NARRATIVE THAT THE COMMITTEE COMPLETELY REBUTTED COMMITTEE COMPLETELY REBUTTED THAT THIS WAS SOME KIND OF THAT THIS WAS SOME KIND OF EITHER GOVERNMENT OPERATION OR EITHER GOVERNMENT OPERATION OR ANTIFA OR IS SORT OF FAR-LEFT ANTIFA OR IS SORT OF FAR-LEFT OPERATION. OPERATION. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THAT. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THAT. THIS IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO THIS IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO FALSELY BELIEVED, INCITED BY THE FALSELY BELIEVED, INCITED BY THE FORMER PRESIDENT, THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT, THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN WITHOUT ELECTION WAS STOLEN WITHOUT EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE. THEY DECIDED TO TAKE MATTERS THEY DECIDED TO TAKE MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND PREVENT INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND PREVENT CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION. CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION. THAT IS A CRIME AGAINST THAT IS A CRIME AGAINST DEMOCRACY, AND THAT’S CONSISTENT DEMOCRACY, AND THAT’S CONSISTENT ACROSS. ACROSS. THERE ARE DEGREES WITHIN THE THERE ARE DEGREES WITHIN THE CROWD OF THE STEPS THAT PEOPLE CROWD OF THE STEPS THAT PEOPLE TOOK. TOOK. SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY IS THE MOST SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY IS THE MOST SERIOUS, THE INTENTIONAL USE OF SERIOUS, THE INTENTIONAL USE OF FORCE TO OVERTHROW A LAWFUL FORCE TO OVERTHROW A LAWFUL FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. THAT’S A VERY, VERY SERIOUS THAT’S A VERY, VERY SERIOUS CHARGE IN OUR HISTORY, AND THERE CHARGE IN OUR HISTORY, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE, MEMBERS OF ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE, MEMBERS OF THE PROUD BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS THE PROUD BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS CONVICTED BY JURORS OF SEDITIOUS CONVICTED BY JURORS OF SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY. CONSPIRACY. IT WOULD BE A HUGE THREAT TO THE IT WOULD BE A HUGE THREAT TO THE RULE OF LAW TO PARDON THAT KIND RULE OF LAW TO PARDON THAT KIND OF SERIOUS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY. OF SERIOUS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY. THAT GOES ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THAT GOES ALL THE WAY DOWN TO PEOPLE THAT TRESPASSED. PEOPLE THAT TRESPASSED. AGAIN, THAT’S A VERY DIFFERENT AGAIN, THAT’S A VERY DIFFERENT LEVEL OF CULPABILITY. LEVEL OF CULPABILITY. STILL CRIMINAL BUT VERY STILL CRIMINAL BUT VERY DIFFERENT. DIFFERENT. SOME OF THEM I WOULDN’T BE SOME OF THEM I WOULDN’T BE SURPRISED IF THEY ARE PARDONED. SURPRISED IF THEY ARE PARDONED. LISA, YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING LISA, YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO SOURCES SURROUNDING WHAT TO SOURCES SURROUNDING WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN. MIGHT HAPPEN. WHAT HAVE THEY TOLD YOU? WHAT HAVE THEY TOLD YOU? I WANT TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE I WANT TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE A NUMBER OF SOURCES SPOKE TO A NUMBER OF SOURCES SPOKE TO MSNBC OFF THE RECORD ABOUT WHAT MSNBC OFF THE RECORD ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN. MIGHT HAPPEN. BUT I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THE BUT I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND THE FUTURE FORMER PRESIDENT AND THE FUTURE PRESIDENT AT HIS WORD WITH PRESIDENT AT HIS WORD WITH RESPECT TO THE JANUARY 6th RESPECT TO THE JANUARY 6th DEFENDANTS AND CONVICTS. DEFENDANTS AND CONVICTS. TO TIM’S POINT ABOUT SEDITIOUS TO TIM’S POINT ABOUT SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY, I AM NOT SURE THAT CONSPIRACY, I AM NOT SURE THAT IN FACT THAT IS THE LINE. IN FACT THAT IS THE LINE. WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE PROUD WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE PROUD BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS WHO ARE BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS WHO ARE CONVICTED OF THOSE CRIMES, THERE CONVICTED OF THOSE CRIMES, THERE WAS PLANNING FOR VIOLENCE, BUT WAS PLANNING FOR VIOLENCE, BUT THERE WASN’T AN ACTUAL THERE WASN’T AN ACTUAL ENGAGEMENT IN VIOLENCE BY MOST ENGAGEMENT IN VIOLENCE BY MOST OF THOSE FOLKS. OF THOSE FOLKS. THE LINE THAT MIGHT BE DRAWN THE LINE THAT MIGHT BE DRAWN HERE IS ONE ABOUT WHAT DID YOU HERE IS ONE ABOUT WHAT DID YOU DO ON THE CAPITOL GROUNDS THAT DO ON THE CAPITOL GROUNDS THAT DAY. DAY. IF YOU ARE A PERSON WHO, FOR IF YOU ARE A PERSON WHO, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS A TRESPASSER OR EXAMPLE, WAS A TRESPASSER OR EVEN IF YOU DRESSED UP IN EVEN IF YOU DRESSED UP IN COSTUME, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE JACOB COSTUME, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE JACOB CHANSLEY AND TERRORIZED PEOPLE CHANSLEY AND TERRORIZED PEOPLE BY YOUR PRESENCE, BUT WENT ON BY YOUR PRESENCE, BUT WENT ON THE SENATE DIE AS OR PROPELLED THE SENATE DIE AS OR PROPELLED DOWN THE SENATE GALLERY, THAT DOWN THE SENATE GALLERY, THAT MAY NOT BE MUCH FOR A VIOLENT MAY NOT BE MUCH FOR A VIOLENT ACT FOR THE FUTURE PEOPLE OF THE ACT FOR THE FUTURE PEOPLE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. THE JANUARY 6th RIOTERS WERE THE JANUARY 6th RIOTERS WERE EX MILITARY, THE OATH KEEPERS A EX MILITARY, THE OATH KEEPERS A FEW AS WELL. FEW AS WELL. WHAT MESSAGE DOES IT SEND TO WHAT MESSAGE DOES IT SEND TO THOSE FOLKS OUT THERE WHO MIGHT THOSE FOLKS OUT THERE WHO MIGHT BE THINKING THAT THEIR OATH IS BE THINKING THAT THEIR OATH IS MORE TO A PERSON AND NOT THE MORE TO A PERSON AND NOT THE CONSTITUTION? CONSTITUTION? THAT IS THE MESSAGE. THAT IS THE MESSAGE. BE LOYAL TO ME RATHER THAN TO BE LOYAL TO ME RATHER THAN TO THE CONSTITUTION. THE CONSTITUTION. IF YOU GET IN TROUBLE, I’LL IF YOU GET IN TROUBLE, I’LL COVER YOU. COVER YOU. YOU KNOW, I’LL HAVE YOUR BACK. YOU KNOW, I’LL HAVE YOUR BACK. AND THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION, I AND THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION, I MEAN, IT’S ALMOST OTHER-WORLDLY MEAN, IT’S ALMOST OTHER-WORLDLY THAT WE’RE HAVING THIS THAT WE’RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT PARDONING CONVERSATION ABOUT PARDONING PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE THESE DREADFUL THINGS AGAINST OUR DREADFUL THINGS AGAINST OUR DEMOCRACY, AGAINST THE SEAT OF DEMOCRACY, AGAINST THE SEAT OF GOVERNMENT. GOVERNMENT. YOU KNOW, I USED TO WORK IN THAT YOU KNOW, I USED TO WORK IN THAT BUILDING. BUILDING. I STOOD WHERE A LOT OF THOSE I STOOD WHERE A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE. PEOPLE WERE. I THINK FOR A LOT OF AMERICANS I THINK FOR A LOT OF AMERICANS WHO JUST PUT IT OUT OF THEIR WHO JUST PUT IT OUT OF THEIR MIND THAT THIS WAS JUST, YOU MIND THAT THIS WAS JUST, YOU KNOW, A BAD DAY THAT GOT OUT OF KNOW, A BAD DAY THAT GOT OUT OF HAND, I MEAN, IT REALLY IS HAND, I MEAN, IT REALLY IS SHOCKING THAT WE MEMORY HOLD IT. SHOCKING THAT WE MEMORY HOLD IT. I THINK IN PARTICULAR FOR TRUMP I THINK IN PARTICULAR FOR TRUMP TO TALK ABOUT PARDONING PEOPLE, TO TALK ABOUT PARDONING PEOPLE, HE IS TALKING ABOUT SAYING, YOU HE IS TALKING ABOUT SAYING, YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, MY FOLKS, MY ARE, YOU KNOW, MY FOLKS, MY LOYAL -- MY LOYAL, YOU KNOW, LOYAL -- MY LOYAL, YOU KNOW, TROOPS OUT THERE. TROOPS OUT THERE. AND I THINK THAT’S ESPECIALLY AND I THINK THAT’S ESPECIALLY DANGEROUS TO TELL PEOPLE WHO DANGEROUS TO TELL PEOPLE WHO WERE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE WERE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE MILITARY. MILITARY. SOME IN FEDERAL SERVICE AS WELL SOME IN FEDERAL SERVICE AS WELL WHO VIOLATED THEIR OATH T THAT, WHO VIOLATED THEIR OATH T THAT, YOU KNOW, THOSE OATHS DON’T YOU KNOW, THOSE OATHS DON’T MATTER, THAT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTER, THAT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU MATTERS IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU SHOWED LOYALTY TO THE BOSS, AND SHOWED LOYALTY TO THE BOSS, AND I HOPE AS LISA JUST SAID, YOU I HOPE AS LISA JUST SAID, YOU HAVE TO TAKE HIM AT HIS WORD HE HAVE TO TAKE HIM AT HIS WORD HE IS GOING TO DO THIS. IS GOING TO DO THIS. I HOPE THAT SOMEWHERE IN THE I HOPE THAT SOMEWHERE IN THE WHITE HOUSE MORE SANE AND COOLER WHITE HOUSE MORE SANE AND COOLER HEADS PREVAIL. HEADS PREVAIL. BUT I DON’T HAVE MUCH HOPE FOR BUT I DON’T HAVE MUCH HOPE FOR THAT. THAT. TOM, COUPLE THAT WITH A TOM, COUPLE THAT WITH A POTENTIAL PETE HEGSETH AS POTENTIAL PETE HEGSETH AS DEFENSE SECRETARY. DEFENSE SECRETARY. HOW DO YOU EXPECT THIS TO HOW DO YOU EXPECT THIS TO INFLUENCE MILITARY RANK AND INFLUENCE MILITARY RANK AND FILE? FILE? I THINK THE APPOINTMENT OF I THINK THE APPOINTMENT OF HEGSETH ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, IS HEGSETH ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, IS NOT GOING TO BE AS WELCOME IN NOT GOING TO BE AS WELCOME IN THE MILITARY AS PEOPLE THINK IT THE MILITARY AS PEOPLE THINK IT MIGHT BE BECAUSE, FIRST OF ALL, MIGHT BE BECAUSE, FIRST OF ALL, OUR ENLISTED AND OFFICER CORPS, OUR ENLISTED AND OFFICER CORPS, THESE ARE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THESE ARE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THEIR DUTY. THEIR DUTY. THEY UNDERSTAND THEIR THEY UNDERSTAND THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL OATH. CONSTITUTIONAL OATH. THEY CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE THEY CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE STANDING NEXT TO THEM, YOU KNOW, STANDING NEXT TO THEM, YOU KNOW, IN LINE OR SITTING NEXT TO THEM IN LINE OR SITTING NEXT TO THEM IN AN OFFICE. IN AN OFFICE. SO, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF SO, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF TROLLING OF TAKING SOMEBODY -- TROLLING OF TAKING SOMEBODY -- AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT TRUMP AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT TRUMP IS DOING, TROLLING THE PUBLIC, IS DOING, TROLLING THE PUBLIC, OF TAKING SOMEONE WITH NO OF TAKING SOMEONE WITH NO QUALIFICATIONS, CAN’T REALLY QUALIFICATIONS, CAN’T REALLY LOOK AFTER THE 3 MILLION PEOPLE LOOK AFTER THE 3 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE D.O.D., LEAVE ASIDE THE IN THE D.O.D., LEAVE ASIDE THE OTHER PROBLEMS OF COULD YOU OTHER PROBLEMS OF COULD YOU POSSIBLY IMAGINE PETE HEGSETH POSSIBLY IMAGINE PETE HEGSETH TALKING TO HIS OPPOSITE NUMBER TALKING TO HIS OPPOSITE NUMBER IN BEIJING OR MOSCOW. IN BEIJING OR MOSCOW. YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT FOLKS IN THE MILITARY CARE ABOUT FOLKS IN THE MILITARY CARE ABOUT IS THAT THEIR PEOPLE ARE LOOKED IS THAT THEIR PEOPLE ARE LOOKED AFTER BY THE DHAN OF COMMAND AFTER BY THE DHAN OF COMMAND GOING ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP. GOING ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP. PETE HEGSETH, WHATEVER HIS PETE HEGSETH, WHATEVER HIS INTENTIONS, EVEN IF THEY ARE INTENTIONS, EVEN IF THEY ARE GOOD INTENTIONS AND NOT ALL OF GOOD INTENTIONS AND NOT ALL OF THEM I THINK ARE, BUT EVEN IF HE THEM I THINK ARE, BUT EVEN IF HE WANTED TO, HE DOESN’T HAVE THE WANTED TO, HE DOESN’T HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OR THE ABILITY TO DO EXPERIENCE OR THE ABILITY TO DO THAT KIND OF A JOB, AND I THINK THAT KIND OF A JOB, AND I THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME CONCERN THERE WOULD BE SOME CONCERN ABOUT THAT. ABOUT THAT. BUT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN THE MESSAGE BUT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN THE MESSAGE WOULD BE THAT WHAT MATTERS MOST WOULD BE THAT WHAT MATTERS MOST IN EVERY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT, IN EVERY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT, INCLUDING JUSTICE AND DEFENSE INCLUDING JUSTICE AND DEFENSE AND THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, AND THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, THE THREE I WORRY ABOUT THE THE THREE I WORRY ABOUT THE MOST, IS THAT LOYALTY MATTERS MOST, IS THAT LOYALTY MATTERS MORE THAN COMPETENCE, LOYALTY TO MORE THAN COMPETENCE, LOYALTY TO DONALD TRUMP MATTERS MORE THAN","caption":[{"@type":"MediaObject","encodingFormat":"srt","url":"https://prodamdnewsencoding.akamaized.net/NBC_News_Digital/nbcnews/captions/2024/11/1732569553277_n_tur_heaphy_french_rubin_nichols_january_6th_convicts_trump_2401125.srt","inLanguage":"en"},{"@type":"MediaObject","encodingFormat":"vtt","url":"https://prodamdnewsencoding.akamaized.net/NBC_News_Digital/nbcnews/captions/2024/11/1732569553277_n_tur_heaphy_french_rubin_nichols_january_6th_convicts_trump_2401125.vtt","inLanguage":"en"}]}</script><link rel="amphtml" href="https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp-video/mmvo225420357902"/><title>‘Wholesale pardons’: What could Trump decide to do with Jan 6 convicts?</title><meta name="description" content="Former Lead Investigator for the January 6th Select Committee Tim Heaphy, MSNBC Legal Correspondent Lisa Rubin, Staff Writer for The Atlantic Tom Nichols, and New York Times Opinion Columnist David French join Katy Tur to discuss whether or not they believe President-elect Donald 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srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-760x380,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732222479268_n_tur_CABINET_241121_1920x1080-35s9k5.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 320px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732222479268_n_tur_CABINET_241121_1920x1080-35s9k5.jpg"/><img loading="lazy" src="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732222479268_n_tur_CABINET_241121_1920x1080-35s9k5.jpg" alt=""/></picture></div><div class="playlist-drawer__info pl4-l pr6-l pa5-l"><h2 class="playlist-drawer__title" data-testid="playlist-title">Spotlight now on other controversial Trump cabinet picks after Gaetz withdrawal</h2><span class="playlist-drawer__duration founders-mono" data-testid="playlist-duration">08:01</span></div></div></li><li class="styles_video__RJe5I"><div class="playlist-drawer__video" data-testid="playlist-drawer-video"><div class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail"><picture class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail" data-testid="picture"><source media="(min-width: 1000px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-280x140,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732139283593_n_tur_vhi_todd_ethics_report_may_not_derail_gaetz_confirmation_2401120_1920x1080-5b2iur.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 758px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-760x380,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732139283593_n_tur_vhi_todd_ethics_report_may_not_derail_gaetz_confirmation_2401120_1920x1080-5b2iur.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 320px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732139283593_n_tur_vhi_todd_ethics_report_may_not_derail_gaetz_confirmation_2401120_1920x1080-5b2iur.jpg"/><img loading="lazy" src="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732139283593_n_tur_vhi_todd_ethics_report_may_not_derail_gaetz_confirmation_2401120_1920x1080-5b2iur.jpg" alt=""/></picture></div><div class="playlist-drawer__info pl4-l pr6-l pa5-l"><h2 class="playlist-drawer__title" data-testid="playlist-title">Chuck Todd: Ethics report release might not derail Gaetz confirmation in Senate</h2><span class="playlist-drawer__duration founders-mono" data-testid="playlist-duration">05:32</span></div></div></li><li class="styles_video__RJe5I"><div class="playlist-drawer__video" data-testid="playlist-drawer-video"><div class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail"><picture class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail" data-testid="picture"><source media="(min-width: 1000px)" 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class="playlist-drawer__info pl4-l pr6-l pa5-l"><h2 class="playlist-drawer__title" data-testid="playlist-title">Ethics Committee member Rep. DeSaulnier : ‘I believe in transparency’</h2><span class="playlist-drawer__duration founders-mono" data-testid="playlist-duration">06:16</span></div></div></li><li class="styles_video__RJe5I"><div class="playlist-drawer__video" data-testid="playlist-drawer-video"><div class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail"><picture class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail" data-testid="picture"><source media="(min-width: 1000px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-280x140,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732136043767_n_tur_brk_house_gaetz_241120_1920x1080-v4cmil.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 758px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-760x380,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732136043767_n_tur_brk_house_gaetz_241120_1920x1080-v4cmil.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 320px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732136043767_n_tur_brk_house_gaetz_241120_1920x1080-v4cmil.jpg"/><img loading="lazy" src="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732136043767_n_tur_brk_house_gaetz_241120_1920x1080-v4cmil.jpg" alt=""/></picture></div><div class="playlist-drawer__info pl4-l pr6-l pa5-l"><h2 class="playlist-drawer__title" data-testid="playlist-title">House Ethics panel has 'no agreement' on releasing Matt Gaetz report</h2><span class="playlist-drawer__duration founders-mono" data-testid="playlist-duration">02:36</span></div></div></li><li class="styles_video__RJe5I"><div class="playlist-drawer__video" data-testid="playlist-drawer-video"><div class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail"><picture class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail" data-testid="picture"><source media="(min-width: 1000px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-280x140,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732049635258_n_tur_hillyard_parker_nobles_trump_pushing_gop_senators_gaetz_2401119_1920x1080-mgpf2m.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 758px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-760x380,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732049635258_n_tur_hillyard_parker_nobles_trump_pushing_gop_senators_gaetz_2401119_1920x1080-mgpf2m.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 320px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732049635258_n_tur_hillyard_parker_nobles_trump_pushing_gop_senators_gaetz_2401119_1920x1080-mgpf2m.jpg"/><img loading="lazy" src="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732049635258_n_tur_hillyard_parker_nobles_trump_pushing_gop_senators_gaetz_2401119_1920x1080-mgpf2m.jpg" alt=""/></picture></div><div class="playlist-drawer__info pl4-l pr6-l pa5-l"><h2 class="playlist-drawer__title" data-testid="playlist-title">'Another loyalty test': Trump urging GOP Senators to support Gaetz as AG</h2><span class="playlist-drawer__duration founders-mono" data-testid="playlist-duration">09:40</span></div></div></li><li class="styles_video__RJe5I"><div class="playlist-drawer__video" data-testid="playlist-drawer-video"><div class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail"><picture class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail" data-testid="picture"><source media="(min-width: 1000px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-280x140,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732049628869_n_tur_rep_charlie_dent_house_ethics_committee_matt_gaetz_2401119_1920x1080-319olu.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 758px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-760x380,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732049628869_n_tur_rep_charlie_dent_house_ethics_committee_matt_gaetz_2401119_1920x1080-319olu.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 320px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732049628869_n_tur_rep_charlie_dent_house_ethics_committee_matt_gaetz_2401119_1920x1080-319olu.jpg"/><img loading="lazy" src="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732049628869_n_tur_rep_charlie_dent_house_ethics_committee_matt_gaetz_2401119_1920x1080-319olu.jpg" alt=""/></picture></div><div class="playlist-drawer__info pl4-l pr6-l pa5-l"><h2 class="playlist-drawer__title" data-testid="playlist-title">What comes next for Gaetz? House Ethics Committee to meet over report</h2><span class="playlist-drawer__duration founders-mono" data-testid="playlist-duration">07:00</span></div></div></li><li class="styles_video__RJe5I"><div class="playlist-drawer__video" data-testid="playlist-drawer-video"><div class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail"><picture class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail" data-testid="picture"><source media="(min-width: 1000px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-280x140,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731963952533_n_tur_TREASURY_241118_1920x1080-bv46h4.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 758px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-760x380,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731963952533_n_tur_TREASURY_241118_1920x1080-bv46h4.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 320px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731963952533_n_tur_TREASURY_241118_1920x1080-bv46h4.jpg"/><img loading="lazy" src="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731963952533_n_tur_TREASURY_241118_1920x1080-bv46h4.jpg" alt=""/></picture></div><div class="playlist-drawer__info pl4-l pr6-l pa5-l"><h2 class="playlist-drawer__title" data-testid="playlist-title">Who could Trump pick for Treasury Secretary?</h2><span class="playlist-drawer__duration founders-mono" data-testid="playlist-duration">06:47</span></div></div></li><li class="styles_video__RJe5I"><div class="playlist-drawer__video" data-testid="playlist-drawer-video"><div class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail"><picture class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail" data-testid="picture"><source media="(min-width: 1000px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-280x140,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731963868113_n_tur_CABINET_241118_1920x1080-2cfbe5.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 758px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-760x380,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731963868113_n_tur_CABINET_241118_1920x1080-2cfbe5.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 320px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731963868113_n_tur_CABINET_241118_1920x1080-2cfbe5.jpg"/><img loading="lazy" src="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731963868113_n_tur_CABINET_241118_1920x1080-2cfbe5.jpg" alt=""/></picture></div><div class="playlist-drawer__info pl4-l pr6-l pa5-l"><h2 class="playlist-drawer__title" data-testid="playlist-title">Trump’s controversial cabinet picks are a ‘recipe for failure’: NYT Columnist</h2><span class="playlist-drawer__duration founders-mono" data-testid="playlist-duration">06:12</span></div></div></li><li class="styles_video__RJe5I"><div class="playlist-drawer__video" data-testid="playlist-drawer-video"><div class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail"><picture class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail" data-testid="picture"><source media="(min-width: 1000px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-280x140,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731705883082_n_tur_musk_shadow_diplomacy_iran_ambassador_nyt_trump_pick_2401115_1920x1080-4njn7f.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 758px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-760x380,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731705883082_n_tur_musk_shadow_diplomacy_iran_ambassador_nyt_trump_pick_2401115_1920x1080-4njn7f.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 320px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731705883082_n_tur_musk_shadow_diplomacy_iran_ambassador_nyt_trump_pick_2401115_1920x1080-4njn7f.jpg"/><img loading="lazy" src="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-520x260,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1731705883082_n_tur_musk_shadow_diplomacy_iran_ambassador_nyt_trump_pick_2401115_1920x1080-4njn7f.jpg" alt=""/></picture></div><div class="playlist-drawer__info pl4-l pr6-l pa5-l"><h2 class="playlist-drawer__title" data-testid="playlist-title">Could Musk conduct ‘shadow diplomacy’ with Iran? 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Padilla</h2><span class="playlist-drawer__duration founders-mono" data-testid="playlist-duration">04:18</span></div></div></li></ul></section></div><button class="styles_nextButton__rVyuE" type="button" data-testid="next-button"><span class="icon icon-back"></span></button></div></div><div class="layout-grid-container"><div class="video-details__info" data-testid="video-details"><div class="video-details__category-and-sponsor video-details__no-sponsor db-m df flex-column"><h2 data-testid="unibrow-container" class="unibrow articleTitleSection video-details__category"><a href="https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc-live-katy-tur"><span data-testid="unibrow-text">Katy Tur</span></a></h2></div><div class="video-details__title-and-share-and-dek"><div class="video-details__title-and-share"><h1 class="video-details__title"><span>‘Wholesale pardons’: What could Trump decide to do with Jan 6 convicts?</span></h1><span class="video-details__duration" data-testid="videoDetails">07:54</span><div class="video-details__social-share-menu" data-testid="video-details__social-share-menu"><ul class="styles_container__ZKkl3 social-share-menu__container" data-activity-map="social-share-links-video-top" data-testid="social-share-menu"><li class="styles_shareThis__O9PZX" data-testid="social-share-share-this">Share this -</li><li data-testid="social-share-facebook" class="styles_item__b5A78 styles_facebook__bOW_X"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch/-wholesale-pardons-what-could-trump-decide-to-do-with-jan-6-convicts-225420357902&cid=mbt_video_socialShare_facebook" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="styles_link__RsJVU"><span class="icon icon-share-facebook"></span></a></li><li data-testid="social-share-twitter" class="styles_item__b5A78 styles_twitter__ww7sF"><a href="https://www.twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=%E2%80%98Wholesale%20pardons%E2%80%99%3A%20What%20could%20Trump%20decide%20to%20do%20with%20Jan%206%20convicts%3F&via=msnbc&url=https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch/-wholesale-pardons-what-could-trump-decide-to-do-with-jan-6-convicts-225420357902&original_referer=https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch/-wholesale-pardons-what-could-trump-decide-to-do-with-jan-6-convicts-225420357902&cid=mbt_video_socialShare_twitter" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="styles_link__RsJVU"><span class="icon icon-twitter"></span></a></li><li data-testid="social-share-email" class="styles_item__b5A78"><a href="mailto:?subject=‘Wholesale pardons’: What could Trump decide to do with Jan 6 convicts?&body=https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch/-wholesale-pardons-what-could-trump-decide-to-do-with-jan-6-convicts-225420357902" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="styles_link__RsJVU"><span class="icon icon-share-email"></span></a></li><li data-testid="social-share-embed " class="dn db-m styles_item__b5A78 styles_embed__lyKBQ"><button type="button" class="styles_button__b3sx_"><span class="icon icon-embed"></span></button><div class="styles_embedTooltip__RwgOG"><span class="icon icon-alt-check"></span><span class="styles_text___8iNX">Copied</span></div></li><li data-testid="social-share-save" class="styles_save__ILVuj"></li></ul></div></div><div class="video-details__dek"><p class="video-details__dek-text"><span class="video-details__dek-description">Former Lead Investigator for the January 6th Select Committee Tim Heaphy, MSNBC Legal Correspondent Lisa Rubin, Staff Writer for The Atlantic Tom Nichols, and New York Times Opinion Columnist David French join Katy Tur to discuss whether or not they believe President-elect Donald Trump will follow through with his word and pardon January 6th rioters.</span><span class="video-details__by-line">Nov. 25, 2024</span></p></div><button class="video-details__dek-read-more" type="button">Read More</button></div></div></div></div><div class="video-page__carousel" data-testid="video-page-playlist"><button class="styles_prevButton__Fx_g5 styles_disabled__HbxXI" type="button" data-testid="prev-button"><span class="icon icon-back"></span></button><div class="styles_playlistDrawer__cldGd" data-testid="playlist-drawer"><section class="styles_playlist__9021X"><ul class="styles_videos__nQb5X"><li class="styles_video__RJe5I"><div class="playlist-drawer__video" data-testid="playlist-drawer-video"><div class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail"><picture class="playlist-drawer__thumbnail" data-testid="picture"><source media="(min-width: 1000px)" srcSet="https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-280x140,f_auto,q_auto:best/mpx/2704722219/2024_11/1732740706622_n_tur_haines_dowd_leibovich_harris_speaks_out_trump_241127_1920x1080-64idd3.jpg"/><source media="(min-width: 758px)" 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14.6719ZM19.5 22C19.5 22 19.4231 19.3596 18.2692 17.2166C17.1154 15.0737 7.88462 15.0734 6.73077 17.2167C5.57692 19.36 5.5 22 5.5 22L11.9849 23.8528C12.3216 23.949 12.6784 23.949 13.0151 23.8528L19.5 22Z\" fill=\"white\"/\u003e\u003cpath class=\"login__icon--border\" fill-rule=\"evenodd\" clip-rule=\"evenodd\" d=\"M12.5 23C18.299 23 23 18.299 23 12.5C23 6.70101 18.299 2 12.5 2C6.70101 2 2 6.70101 2 12.5C2 18.299 6.70101 23 12.5 23ZM12.5 25C19.4036 25 25 19.4036 25 12.5C25 5.59644 19.4036 0 12.5 0C5.59644 0 0 5.59644 0 12.5C0 19.4036 5.59644 25 12.5 25Z\" fill=\"#82AEFF\"/\u003e\u003c/svg\u003e\u003c/button\u003e\u003c/div\u003e\u003c/div\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"headline-container\"\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"headline-wrap h-h\"\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"headline-title h-h\"\u003e\u003cp class=\"headline-title-text h-lh js-headline-text\"\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\u003c/div\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"share-list h-h share-has-dropdown\"\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"share-inner\"\u003e\u003cul class=\"share-ul 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srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-200x300,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532536/rachel_maddow.jpg\"\u003e\u003cimg src=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-120x180,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532536/rachel_maddow.jpg\" alt=\"The Rachel Maddow Show\" loading=\"lazy\" /\u003e\u003c/picture\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-title\"\u003eThe Rachel Maddow Show\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-time\"\u003eMondays 9PM ET\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/li\u003e\u003cli class=\"menu-list-item\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe\" class=\"menu-list-item-link\"\u003e\u003cpicture\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 1240px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-240x360,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532516/morning_joe.jpg\"\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 758px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-200x300,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532516/morning_joe.jpg\"\u003e\u003cimg src=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-120x180,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532516/morning_joe.jpg\" alt=\"Morning Joe\" loading=\"lazy\" /\u003e\u003c/picture\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-title\"\u003eMorning Joe\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-time\"\u003eWeekdays 6am ET\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/li\u003e\u003cli class=\"menu-list-item\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house\" class=\"menu-list-item-link\"\u003e\u003cpicture\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 1240px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-240x360,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532491/deadline_whitehouse.jpg\"\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 758px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-200x300,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532491/deadline_whitehouse.jpg\"\u003e\u003cimg src=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-120x180,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532491/deadline_whitehouse.jpg\" alt=\"Deadline: White House with Nicolle Wallace\" loading=\"lazy\" /\u003e\u003c/picture\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-title\"\u003eDeadline: White House with Nicolle Wallace\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-time\"\u003eWeekdays 4PM ET\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/li\u003e\u003cli class=\"menu-list-item\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.msnbc.com/the-beat-with-ari-melber\" class=\"menu-list-item-link\"\u003e\u003cpicture\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 1240px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-240x360,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532546/the_beat.jpg\"\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 758px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-200x300,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532546/the_beat.jpg\"\u003e\u003cimg src=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-120x180,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532546/the_beat.jpg\" alt=\"The Beat with Ari Melber\" loading=\"lazy\" /\u003e\u003c/picture\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-title\"\u003eThe Beat with Ari Melber\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-time\"\u003eWeeknights 6PM ET\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/li\u003e\u003cli class=\"menu-list-item\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.msnbc.com/reidout\" class=\"menu-list-item-link\"\u003e\u003cpicture\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 1240px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-240x360,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2024-02/joy-reid-msnbc-hamburger-2023-copy-2b20e7.jpg\"\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 758px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-200x300,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2024-02/joy-reid-msnbc-hamburger-2023-copy-2b20e7.jpg\"\u003e\u003cimg src=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-120x180,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2024-02/joy-reid-msnbc-hamburger-2023-copy-2b20e7.jpg\" alt=\"The ReidOut with Joy Reid\" loading=\"lazy\" /\u003e\u003c/picture\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-title\"\u003eThe ReidOut with Joy Reid\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-time\"\u003eWeeknights 7PM ET\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/li\u003e\u003cli class=\"menu-list-item\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.msnbc.com/all\" class=\"menu-list-item-link\"\u003e\u003cpicture\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 1240px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-240x360,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532471/all_in_with_chris_hayes.jpg\"\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 758px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-200x300,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532471/all_in_with_chris_hayes.jpg\"\u003e\u003cimg src=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-120x180,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532471/all_in_with_chris_hayes.jpg\" alt=\"All In with Chris Hayes\" loading=\"lazy\" /\u003e\u003c/picture\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-title\"\u003eAll In with Chris Hayes\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-time\"\u003eTUESDAY-FRIDAY 8PM ET\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/li\u003e\u003cli class=\"menu-list-item\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word\" class=\"menu-list-item-link\"\u003e\u003cpicture\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 1240px)\" srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-240x360,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2018_33/2532511/last_word_card.jpg\"\u003e\u003csource media=\"(min-width: 758px)\" 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srcset=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-200x300,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2022_33/3566778/msnbc-hamburger-alex-wagner.png\"\u003e\u003cimg src=\"https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_focal-120x180,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2022_33/3566778/msnbc-hamburger-alex-wagner.png\" alt=\"Alex Wagner Tonight\" loading=\"lazy\" /\u003e\u003c/picture\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-title\"\u003eAlex Wagner Tonight\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-time\"\u003eTuesday-Friday 9PM ET\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/li\u003e\u003c/ul\u003e\u003c/div\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"menu-section menu-section-live\"\u003e\u003cp class=\"menu-section-heading\"\u003eMSNBC TV\u003c/p\u003e\u003cul class=\"menu-list\"\u003e\u003cli class=\"menu-list-item\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.msnbc.com/live\" class=\"menu-list-item-link\"\u003e\u003cspan class=\"menu-list-item-title\"\u003eWatch Live\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan 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28.3983L29.5214 28.8448C29.388 28.8969 29.2487 28.9082 29.1174 28.8847C29.0459 29.2238 28.7447 29.4783 28.3841 29.4783H27.7687C27.3548 29.4783 27.0192 29.143 27.0192 28.7294V23.5692C27.0192 23.1556 27.3548 22.8203 27.7687 22.8203H28.3841C28.7446 22.8203 29.0457 23.0747 29.1174 23.4136C29.16 23.4061 29.2039 23.4022 29.2487 23.4022C29.342 23.4022 29.4345 23.4196 29.5214 23.4535L29.7677 23.5496C29.7676 23.1211 29.7674 22.7463 29.7673 22.734C29.7196 19.0967 26.6455 15.8208 22.9001 15.8208C19.1547 15.8208 16.0732 19.0966 16.0253 22.7338C16.0252 22.7461 16.0251 23.1211 16.025 23.5496Z\" fill=\"white\"/\u003e\u003c/svg\u003e\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/li\u003e\u003c/ul\u003e\u003c/div\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"menu-section menu-section-more\"\u003e\u003cp class=\"menu-section-heading\"\u003eMore\u003c/p\u003e\u003cul class=\"menu-list\"\u003e\u003cli class=\"menu-list-item\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.msnbcevents.com/\" class=\"menu-list-item-link\"\u003e\u003cspan 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PARDON THEM. HE HAS FLIRTED WITH THAT ON THE HE HAS FLIRTED WITH THAT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. CAMPAIGN TRAIL. DOES HE GO THROUGH WITH IT? DOES HE GO THROUGH WITH IT? JOIN US NOW JANUARY 6th SELECT JOIN US NOW JANUARY 6th SELECT COMMITTEE FORMER LEAD COMMITTEE FORMER LEAD INVESTIGATOR, TIM HEAPHY. INVESTIGATOR, TIM HEAPHY. ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. SO I WILL BEGIN WITH YOU. SO I WILL BEGIN WITH YOU. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT DONALD TRUMP WHAT DO YOU EXPECT DONALD TRUMP MIGHT DO WITH ALL OF THOSE WHO MIGHT DO WITH ALL OF THOSE WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL, HAVE BEEN STORMED THE CAPITOL, HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND CONVICTED FOR THEIR ARRESTED AND CONVICTED FOR THEIR CRIMES? CRIMES?","ALL I CAN SAY IS HE WILL DO","ALL I CAN SAY IS HE WILL DO WHAT HE SAID HE IS GOING TO DO, WHAT HE SAID HE IS GOING TO DO, WHICH IS WHOLESALE PARDONS. WHICH IS WHOLESALE PARDONS. I DON’T KNOW THIS THERE WILL BE I DON’T KNOW THIS THERE WILL BE A PRINCIPLED LINE DRAWN BETWEEN A PRINCIPLED LINE DRAWN BETWEEN SOME OF THESE DEFENDANTS. SOME OF THESE DEFENDANTS. THERE ARE VARYING SHADES OF GRAY THERE ARE VARYING SHADES OF GRAY HERE IN TERMS OF CULPABILITY. HERE IN TERMS OF CULPABILITY. SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY IS VERY SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM TRESPASSING. DIFFERENT FROM TRESPASSING. I AM HOPEFUL THERE WILL BE I AM HOPEFUL THERE WILL BE DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THEM AS DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THEM AS OPPOSED TO A BLANKET PARDON OF OPPOSED TO A BLANKET PARDON OF EVERY JANUARY 6th DEFENDANT EVERY JANUARY 6th DEFENDANT BEING PARDONED. BEING PARDONED. THESE WERE SERIOUS, HORRIFIC THESE WERE SERIOUS, HORRIFIC CRIMES. CRIMES. CRIMES AGAINST THE VERY SEAT OF CRIMES AGAINST THE VERY SEAT OF GOVERNMENT. GOVERNMENT. AND THE LAWFUL PROCESS OF THE AND THE LAWFUL PROCESS OF THE CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION. CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION. SO MY HOPE IS THAT AS MANY OF SO MY HOPE IS THAT AS MANY OF THOSE CONVICTIONS PLEAS AND THOSE CONVICTIONS PLEAS AND FINDINGS BY JURIES STAND, BUT, FINDINGS BY JURIES STAND, BUT, AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT-ELECT HAS AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT-ELECT HAS SAID REPEATEDLY THAT THESE ARE SAID REPEATEDLY THAT THESE ARE PATRIOTS OR POLITICAL PRISONERS, PATRIOTS OR POLITICAL PRISONERS, THAT THEY DESERVE OUR THANKS, THAT THEY DESERVE OUR THANKS, NOT OUR CRITICAL CONVICTION AND NOT OUR CRITICAL CONVICTION AND CONDEMNATION. CONDEMNATION. SO I DON’T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY HE SO I DON’T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY HE WILL DO. WILL DO.","TIM, YOU ARE SO INTIMATE WITH","TIM, YOU ARE SO INTIMATE WITH THE EVIDENCE THAT THE JANUARY THE EVIDENCE THAT THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE COMPILED FOR THE 6th COMMITTEE COMPILED FOR THE HEARINGS, INCLUDING ALL OF THOSE HEARINGS, INCLUDING ALL OF THOSE VIDEOS, SO OF VIDEO OF WHAT VIDEOS, SO OF VIDEO OF WHAT HAPPENED ON THE CAPITOL ON THAT HAPPENED ON THE CAPITOL ON THAT DAY, WHAT THE RIOTERS WERE DAY, WHAT THE RIOTERS WERE DOING, WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, DOING, WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, WHO THEY WERE ATTRIBUTING THEIR WHO THEY WERE ATTRIBUTING THEIR MOVEMENTS TO. MOVEMENTS TO. JUST WHEN YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT JUST WHEN YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT WHAT DONALD TRUMP MIGHT DO COME WHAT DONALD TRUMP MIGHT DO COME JANUARY WITH THESE FOLKS RIGHT JANUARY WITH THESE FOLKS RIGHT HERE, WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU IN HERE, WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU IN TERMS OF WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE TERMS OF WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE AND WHAT THEIR INTENTION WAS? AND WHAT THEIR INTENTION WAS?","WELL, THE FIRST OF ALL, THERE","WELL, THE FIRST OF ALL, THERE WAS A FALSE NARRATIVE THAT THE WAS A FALSE NARRATIVE THAT THE COMMITTEE COMPLETELY REBUTTED COMMITTEE COMPLETELY REBUTTED THAT THIS WAS SOME KIND OF THAT THIS WAS SOME KIND OF EITHER GOVERNMENT OPERATION OR EITHER GOVERNMENT OPERATION OR ANTIFA OR IS SORT OF FAR-LEFT ANTIFA OR IS SORT OF FAR-LEFT OPERATION. OPERATION. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THAT. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THAT. THIS IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO THIS IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO FALSELY BELIEVED, INCITED BY THE FALSELY BELIEVED, INCITED BY THE FORMER PRESIDENT, THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT, THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN WITHOUT ELECTION WAS STOLEN WITHOUT EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE. THEY DECIDED TO TAKE MATTERS THEY DECIDED TO TAKE MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND PREVENT INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND PREVENT CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION. CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION. THAT IS A CRIME AGAINST THAT IS A CRIME AGAINST DEMOCRACY, AND THAT’S CONSISTENT DEMOCRACY, AND THAT’S CONSISTENT ACROSS. ACROSS. THERE ARE DEGREES WITHIN THE THERE ARE DEGREES WITHIN THE CROWD OF THE STEPS THAT PEOPLE CROWD OF THE STEPS THAT PEOPLE TOOK. TOOK. SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY IS THE MOST SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY IS THE MOST SERIOUS, THE INTENTIONAL USE OF SERIOUS, THE INTENTIONAL USE OF FORCE TO OVERTHROW A LAWFUL FORCE TO OVERTHROW A LAWFUL FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. THAT’S A VERY, VERY SERIOUS THAT’S A VERY, VERY SERIOUS CHARGE IN OUR HISTORY, AND THERE CHARGE IN OUR HISTORY, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE, MEMBERS OF ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE, MEMBERS OF THE PROUD BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS THE PROUD BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS CONVICTED BY JURORS OF SEDITIOUS CONVICTED BY JURORS OF SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY. CONSPIRACY. IT WOULD BE A HUGE THREAT TO THE IT WOULD BE A HUGE THREAT TO THE RULE OF LAW TO PARDON THAT KIND RULE OF LAW TO PARDON THAT KIND OF SERIOUS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY. OF SERIOUS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY. THAT GOES ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THAT GOES ALL THE WAY DOWN TO PEOPLE THAT TRESPASSED. PEOPLE THAT TRESPASSED. AGAIN, THAT’S A VERY DIFFERENT AGAIN, THAT’S A VERY DIFFERENT LEVEL OF CULPABILITY. LEVEL OF CULPABILITY. STILL CRIMINAL BUT VERY STILL CRIMINAL BUT VERY DIFFERENT. DIFFERENT. SOME OF THEM I WOULDN’T BE SOME OF THEM I WOULDN’T BE SURPRISED IF THEY ARE PARDONED. SURPRISED IF THEY ARE PARDONED.","LISA, YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING","LISA, YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO SOURCES SURROUNDING WHAT TO SOURCES SURROUNDING WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN. MIGHT HAPPEN. WHAT HAVE THEY TOLD YOU? WHAT HAVE THEY TOLD YOU?","I WANT TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE","I WANT TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE A NUMBER OF SOURCES SPOKE TO A NUMBER OF SOURCES SPOKE TO MSNBC OFF THE RECORD ABOUT WHAT MSNBC OFF THE RECORD ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN. MIGHT HAPPEN. BUT I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THE BUT I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND THE FUTURE FORMER PRESIDENT AND THE FUTURE PRESIDENT AT HIS WORD WITH PRESIDENT AT HIS WORD WITH RESPECT TO THE JANUARY 6th RESPECT TO THE JANUARY 6th DEFENDANTS AND CONVICTS. DEFENDANTS AND CONVICTS. TO TIM’S POINT ABOUT SEDITIOUS TO TIM’S POINT ABOUT SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY, I AM NOT SURE THAT CONSPIRACY, I AM NOT SURE THAT IN FACT THAT IS THE LINE. IN FACT THAT IS THE LINE. WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE PROUD WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE PROUD BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS WHO ARE BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS WHO ARE CONVICTED OF THOSE CRIMES, THERE CONVICTED OF THOSE CRIMES, THERE WAS PLANNING FOR VIOLENCE, BUT WAS PLANNING FOR VIOLENCE, BUT THERE WASN’T AN ACTUAL THERE WASN’T AN ACTUAL ENGAGEMENT IN VIOLENCE BY MOST ENGAGEMENT IN VIOLENCE BY MOST OF THOSE FOLKS. OF THOSE FOLKS. THE LINE THAT MIGHT BE DRAWN THE LINE THAT MIGHT BE DRAWN HERE IS ONE ABOUT WHAT DID YOU HERE IS ONE ABOUT WHAT DID YOU DO ON THE CAPITOL GROUNDS THAT DO ON THE CAPITOL GROUNDS THAT DAY. DAY. IF YOU ARE A PERSON WHO, FOR IF YOU ARE A PERSON WHO, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS A TRESPASSER OR EXAMPLE, WAS A TRESPASSER OR EVEN IF YOU DRESSED UP IN EVEN IF YOU DRESSED UP IN COSTUME, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE JACOB COSTUME, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE JACOB CHANSLEY AND TERRORIZED PEOPLE CHANSLEY AND TERRORIZED PEOPLE BY YOUR PRESENCE, BUT WENT ON BY YOUR PRESENCE, BUT WENT ON THE SENATE DIE AS OR PROPELLED THE SENATE DIE AS OR PROPELLED DOWN THE SENATE GALLERY, THAT DOWN THE SENATE GALLERY, THAT MAY NOT BE MUCH FOR A VIOLENT MAY NOT BE MUCH FOR A VIOLENT ACT FOR THE FUTURE PEOPLE OF THE ACT FOR THE FUTURE PEOPLE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.","THE JANUARY 6th RIOTERS WERE","THE JANUARY 6th RIOTERS WERE EX MILITARY, THE OATH KEEPERS A EX MILITARY, THE OATH KEEPERS A FEW AS WELL. FEW AS WELL. WHAT MESSAGE DOES IT SEND TO WHAT MESSAGE DOES IT SEND TO THOSE FOLKS OUT THERE WHO MIGHT THOSE FOLKS OUT THERE WHO MIGHT BE THINKING THAT THEIR OATH IS BE THINKING THAT THEIR OATH IS MORE TO A PERSON AND NOT THE MORE TO A PERSON AND NOT THE CONSTITUTION? CONSTITUTION?","THAT IS THE MESSAGE.","THAT IS THE MESSAGE. BE LOYAL TO ME RATHER THAN TO BE LOYAL TO ME RATHER THAN TO THE CONSTITUTION. THE CONSTITUTION. IF YOU GET IN TROUBLE, I’LL IF YOU GET IN TROUBLE, I’LL COVER YOU. COVER YOU. YOU KNOW, I’LL HAVE YOUR BACK. YOU KNOW, I’LL HAVE YOUR BACK. AND THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION, I AND THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION, I MEAN, IT’S ALMOST OTHER-WORLDLY MEAN, IT’S ALMOST OTHER-WORLDLY THAT WE’RE HAVING THIS THAT WE’RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT PARDONING CONVERSATION ABOUT PARDONING PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE THESE DREADFUL THINGS AGAINST OUR DREADFUL THINGS AGAINST OUR DEMOCRACY, AGAINST THE SEAT OF DEMOCRACY, AGAINST THE SEAT OF GOVERNMENT. GOVERNMENT. YOU KNOW, I USED TO WORK IN THAT YOU KNOW, I USED TO WORK IN THAT BUILDING. BUILDING. I STOOD WHERE A LOT OF THOSE I STOOD WHERE A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE. PEOPLE WERE. I THINK FOR A LOT OF AMERICANS I THINK FOR A LOT OF AMERICANS WHO JUST PUT IT OUT OF THEIR WHO JUST PUT IT OUT OF THEIR MIND THAT THIS WAS JUST, YOU MIND THAT THIS WAS JUST, YOU KNOW, A BAD DAY THAT GOT OUT OF KNOW, A BAD DAY THAT GOT OUT OF HAND, I MEAN, IT REALLY IS HAND, I MEAN, IT REALLY IS SHOCKING THAT WE MEMORY HOLD IT. SHOCKING THAT WE MEMORY HOLD IT. I THINK IN PARTICULAR FOR TRUMP I THINK IN PARTICULAR FOR TRUMP TO TALK ABOUT PARDONING PEOPLE, TO TALK ABOUT PARDONING PEOPLE, HE IS TALKING ABOUT SAYING, YOU HE IS TALKING ABOUT SAYING, YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, MY FOLKS, MY ARE, YOU KNOW, MY FOLKS, MY LOYAL -- MY LOYAL, YOU KNOW, LOYAL -- MY LOYAL, YOU KNOW, TROOPS OUT THERE. TROOPS OUT THERE. AND I THINK THAT’S ESPECIALLY AND I THINK THAT’S ESPECIALLY DANGEROUS TO TELL PEOPLE WHO DANGEROUS TO TELL PEOPLE WHO WERE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE WERE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE MILITARY. MILITARY. SOME IN FEDERAL SERVICE AS WELL SOME IN FEDERAL SERVICE AS WELL WHO VIOLATED THEIR OATH T THAT, WHO VIOLATED THEIR OATH T THAT, YOU KNOW, THOSE OATHS DON’T YOU KNOW, THOSE OATHS DON’T MATTER, THAT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTER, THAT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU MATTERS IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU SHOWED LOYALTY TO THE BOSS, AND SHOWED LOYALTY TO THE BOSS, AND I HOPE AS LISA JUST SAID, YOU I HOPE AS LISA JUST SAID, YOU HAVE TO TAKE HIM AT HIS WORD HE HAVE TO TAKE HIM AT HIS WORD HE IS GOING TO DO THIS. IS GOING TO DO THIS. I HOPE THAT SOMEWHERE IN THE I HOPE THAT SOMEWHERE IN THE WHITE HOUSE MORE SANE AND COOLER WHITE HOUSE MORE SANE AND COOLER HEADS PREVAIL. HEADS PREVAIL. BUT I DON’T HAVE MUCH HOPE FOR BUT I DON’T HAVE MUCH HOPE FOR THAT. THAT.","TOM, COUPLE THAT WITH A","TOM, COUPLE THAT WITH A POTENTIAL PETE HEGSETH AS POTENTIAL PETE HEGSETH AS DEFENSE SECRETARY. DEFENSE SECRETARY. HOW DO YOU EXPECT THIS TO HOW DO YOU EXPECT THIS TO INFLUENCE MILITARY RANK AND INFLUENCE MILITARY RANK AND FILE? FILE?","I THINK THE APPOINTMENT OF","I THINK THE APPOINTMENT OF HEGSETH ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, IS HEGSETH ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, IS NOT GOING TO BE AS WELCOME IN NOT GOING TO BE AS WELCOME IN THE MILITARY AS PEOPLE THINK IT THE MILITARY AS PEOPLE THINK IT MIGHT BE BECAUSE, FIRST OF ALL, MIGHT BE BECAUSE, FIRST OF ALL, OUR ENLISTED AND OFFICER CORPS, OUR ENLISTED AND OFFICER CORPS, THESE ARE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THESE ARE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THEIR DUTY. THEIR DUTY. THEY UNDERSTAND THEIR THEY UNDERSTAND THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL OATH. CONSTITUTIONAL OATH. THEY CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE THEY CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE STANDING NEXT TO THEM, YOU KNOW, STANDING NEXT TO THEM, YOU KNOW, IN LINE OR SITTING NEXT TO THEM IN LINE OR SITTING NEXT TO THEM IN AN OFFICE. IN AN OFFICE. SO, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF SO, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF TROLLING OF TAKING SOMEBODY -- TROLLING OF TAKING SOMEBODY -- AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT TRUMP AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT TRUMP IS DOING, TROLLING THE PUBLIC, IS DOING, TROLLING THE PUBLIC, OF TAKING SOMEONE WITH NO OF TAKING SOMEONE WITH NO QUALIFICATIONS, CAN’T REALLY QUALIFICATIONS, CAN’T REALLY LOOK AFTER THE 3 MILLION PEOPLE LOOK AFTER THE 3 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE D.O.D., LEAVE ASIDE THE IN THE D.O.D., LEAVE ASIDE THE OTHER PROBLEMS OF COULD YOU OTHER PROBLEMS OF COULD YOU POSSIBLY IMAGINE PETE HEGSETH POSSIBLY IMAGINE PETE HEGSETH TALKING TO HIS OPPOSITE NUMBER TALKING TO HIS OPPOSITE NUMBER IN BEIJING OR MOSCOW. IN BEIJING OR MOSCOW. YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT FOLKS IN THE MILITARY CARE ABOUT FOLKS IN THE MILITARY CARE ABOUT IS THAT THEIR PEOPLE ARE LOOKED IS THAT THEIR PEOPLE ARE LOOKED AFTER BY THE DHAN OF COMMAND AFTER BY THE DHAN OF COMMAND GOING ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP. GOING ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP. PETE HEGSETH, WHATEVER HIS PETE HEGSETH, WHATEVER HIS INTENTIONS, EVEN IF THEY ARE INTENTIONS, EVEN IF THEY ARE GOOD INTENTIONS AND NOT ALL OF GOOD INTENTIONS AND NOT ALL OF THEM I THINK ARE, BUT EVEN IF HE THEM I THINK ARE, BUT EVEN IF HE WANTED TO, HE DOESN’T HAVE THE WANTED TO, HE DOESN’T HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OR THE ABILITY TO DO EXPERIENCE OR THE ABILITY TO DO THAT KIND OF A JOB, AND I THINK THAT KIND OF A JOB, AND I THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME CONCERN THERE WOULD BE SOME CONCERN ABOUT THAT. ABOUT THAT. BUT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN THE MESSAGE BUT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN THE MESSAGE WOULD BE THAT WHAT MATTERS MOST WOULD BE THAT WHAT MATTERS MOST IN EVERY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT, IN EVERY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT, INCLUDING JUSTICE AND DEFENSE INCLUDING JUSTICE AND DEFENSE AND THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, AND THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, THE THREE I WORRY ABOUT THE THE THREE I WORRY ABOUT THE MOST, IS THAT LOYALTY MATTERS MOST, IS THAT LOYALTY MATTERS MORE THAN COMPETENCE, LOYALTY TO MORE THAN COMPETENCE, LOYALTY TO DONALD TRUMP MATTERS MORE 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