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<!DOCTYPE html><html lang="de" prefix="og: http://ogp.me/ns# fb: http://ogp.me/ns/fb# "> <head> <title>Energieversorgung in Deutschland: Salzkavernen sollen Strom speichern | taz.de </title> <meta name="viewport" content="initial-scale=1, maximum-scale=3, width=device-width"></meta> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></meta> <meta name="robots" content="index, follow, max-image-preview:large "></meta> <link rel="canonical" href="https://taz.de/Energieversorgung-in-Deutschland/!6029627/"></link> <meta name="copyright" content="TAZ Verlags- und Vertriebs GmbH"></meta> <meta name="description" content="Uniper testet Wasserstoffspeicher in Salzkavernen. Diese Speicher könnten schon bald enorm wichtig werden für Deutschland. 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Die Risiken sind gering."></meta> <meta name="taz:title" data-id="6029627" content="Energieversorgung in Deutschland: Salzkavernen sollen Strom speichern"> <meta property="og:type" content="article"></meta> <meta property="article:tag" name="taz:tag" data-id="5612532" data-tag-id="5612532" content="Wasserstoff"></meta> <meta property="article:tag" name="taz:tag" data-id="5372210" data-tag-id="5372210" content="Energiespeicher"></meta> <meta property="article:tag" name="taz:tag" data-id="5012787" data-tag-id="5012787" content="Infrastruktur"></meta> <meta property="article:tag" name="taz:tag" data-id="5964401" data-tag-id="5964401" content="Social-Auswahl"></meta> <meta property="article:author" content="Anton Dieckhoff"></meta> <meta property="article:published_time" content="2024-08-25T15:56:00"> <meta property="og:image:alt" content="Eine Flagge mit dem Schriftzug von Uniper weht an einem Fahnenmast"> <meta property="og:image" content="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/1200/35675205-1.jpeg"> <meta name="twitter:image" content="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/1200/35675205-1.jpeg"> <meta name="twitter:card" content="summary_large_image"> <meta property="og:image:width" content="1200"> <meta property="og:image:height" content="2400"> <meta name="twitter:card" content="summary"> <meta name="twitter:site" content="@tazgezwitscher"> <meta property="og:locale" content="de_DE"> <script type="application/ld+json"> {"@context":"https://schema.org/","@type":"WebPage","url":"https://taz.de/","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","name":"TAZ Verlags- und Vertriebs GmbH","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","url":"https://taz.de/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/taz_logo_web.jpg"},"url":"https://taz.de/","sameAs":["https://pod.geraspora.de/u/taz","https://www.reddit.com/user/dietageszeitung","https://flipboard.com/@taz_de","https://www.instagram.com/taz.die_tageszeitung","https://twitter.com/tazgezwitscher","https://www.facebook.com/taz.kommune/"]}}</script> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/fonts/Taz-Bold_tazze_private_only.woff" type="font/woff" crossorigin="anonymous" as="font"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/fonts/AktivGrotesk_W_Bd.latin.woff2" type="font/woff2" crossorigin="anonymous" as="font"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/fonts/AktivGrotesk_W_Rg.latin.woff2" type="font/woff2" crossorigin="anonymous" as="font"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/fonts/AktivGrotesk_W_Md.latin.woff2" type="font/woff2" crossorigin="anonymous" as="font"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/fonts/AktivGrotesk_W_It.latin.woff2" type="font/woff2" crossorigin="anonymous" as="font"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/heart_white_redhov.svg" type="image/svg+xml" as="image"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/menu_suche_redhov.svg" type="image/svg+xml" as="image"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/M_taz_Logo-min.svg" type="image/svg+xml" as="image"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/DT_taz_logo-min.svg" type="image/svg+xml" as="image"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/dot.svg" type="image/svg+xml" as="image"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/show_more_grey_redhov.svg" type="image/svg+xml" as="image"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/fonts/QuaText-Regular.latin.woff2" type="font/woff2" crossorigin="anonymous" as="font"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/read_more_redhov.svg" type="image/svg+xml" as="image"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/share_redhov.svg" type="image/svg+xml" as="image"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/fonts/KnileCompressed-Light.woff2" type="font/woff2" crossorigin="anonymous" as="font"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/fonts/Knile-Regular.latin.woff2" type="font/woff2" crossorigin="anonymous" as="font"></link> <link rel="preload" href="/lib/taz-verlag-node/fonts/knilecondensed-semibold-webfont.latin.woff2" type="font/woff2" crossorigin="anonymous" as="font"></link> <script> if (typeof queueMicrotask === "undefined") { window.queueMicrotask = function(callback) { Promise.resolve().then(callback).catch(e => setTimeout(() => { throw e; 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height: 24px; "> <span class=" icon small show_more_grey_redhov no-hover"></span> </div> </summary> <ul> <li class="full level-1 pv-small first-item tablet-order-6 mobile-order-6 mgt-small" style="border-top: .2px solid #565656"> <a class=" full typo-drawer-subsection pv-small" href="https://taz.de/Kultur/Musik/!p4640/"> musik </a> </li> <li class="full level-1 pv-small tablet-order-6 mobile-order-6 " style="border-top: .2px solid #565656"> <a class=" full typo-drawer-subsection pv-small" href="https://taz.de/Kultur/Film/!p4641/"> film </a> </li> <li class="full level-1 pv-small tablet-order-6 mobile-order-6 " style="border-top: .2px solid #565656"> <a class=" full typo-drawer-subsection pv-small" href="https://taz.de/Kultur/Kuenste/!p4642/"> künste </a> </li> <li class="full level-1 pv-small tablet-order-6 mobile-order-6 " style="border-top: .2px solid #565656"> <a class=" full typo-drawer-subsection pv-small" href="https://taz.de/Kultur/Buch/!p4643/"> buch </a> </li> <li class="full level-1 pt-small last-item tablet-order-6 mobile-order-6 " style="border-top: .2px solid #565656"> <a class=" full typo-drawer-subsection pv-small" href="https://taz.de/Kultur/Netzkultur/!p4631/"> netzkultur </a> </li> </ul> </details> </li> <li class="pv-small level-0 tablet-order-6 mobile-order-6 " style="border-top: .2px solid #565656"> <details> <summary class="is-flex"> <a class="typo-drawer-head-section full " href="https://taz.de/Sport/!p4646/"> sport </a> <div class="vertical-line-left-before ph-small is-relative " style="width: 24px; 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'is-clipped' : '', typeof $store.campaign !== 'undefined' && typeof $store.campaign.pagesShow !== 'undefined' && $store.campaign.pagesShow['form-wrapper'] === true ? 'isCampaign' : '']" data-pageId="6029627"> <noscript> <style> taz-header:not(:defined) { min-height: 0 !important; } .taz-header-container { position: static !important } picture > *:not(noscript) { display: none !important } .randomizeList-0.is-hidden:first-of-type, .randomizeList-1.is-hidden:first-of-type{ display: flex !important } .readMoreContent-wrapper>.readMoreContent { max-height: fit-content !important } .no-js-show { display: block !important } </style> </noscript> <div class="container is-max-desktop has-background-white " :class="isMobile ? 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Aber wer will, kann. Unser Journalismus ist nicht nur 100 % konzernfrei, sondern auch kostenfrei zugänglich. Texte, die es nicht allen recht machen und Stimmen, die man woanders nicht hört – immer aus Überzeugung und hier auf taz.de ohne Paywall. Das ist dank Ihrer Unterstützung möglich!" style="min-width: 0; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 8px;" class=" button ph-xsmall mgt-0 mgl-small-mobile mgr-small is-flex is-align-items-center is-flex-shrink-0 pulse-animation ph-medium line-height-reset navbar-second-level-link t-decoration-none has-text-white typo-teaser-text-secondary-bold pr-small-mobile pl-small-medium-mobile" :class="[(isMobile || isScrolled) && allowTransform ? '' : 'has-background-tzi', !allowTransform ? ' full mgt-medium is-justify-content-center ' : '']"> <span class="icon no-hover mgr-xsmall small" :class="(isMobile || isScrolled) && allowTransform ? 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Diese Speicher könnten schon bald enorm wichtig werden für Deutschland. Die Risiken sind gering. </p> <div class="meta-data-container column is-flex is-align-items-center is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet-only mgh-auto-desktop mgt-large mgt-medium-mobile mgb-0 mobile-order-4 "> <time datetime="2024-08-25" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data pr-small"> 25.8.2024 </time> <time datetime="15:56" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> 15:56 Uhr </time> <button class=" mgl-auto js-modal-trigger icon-link-wrapper is-flex is-align-items-center" data-target="modal-21h22oicz" aria-label="Teilen"> <span class="icon small center mgr-xsmall share_redhov "></span> <span class="icon-link-text typo-meta-data ">teilen</span> </button> <aside id="modal-21h22oicz" class="modal article module-article"> <div class="modal-background"></div> <div class="modal-card small"> <header class="is-flex is-flex-direction-column modal-card-head"> <div class="is-flex full is-align-items-flex-start is-flex-direction-row "> <button type="button" role="button" class="mgl-auto delete-modal icon medium-large close_circle_redhov" aria-label="close"> </button> </div> </header> <section class="modal-card-body pt-0"> <div class="columns is-flex is-justify-content-center"> <div class="column mobile-order-1"> <script src="/lib/taz-verlag-node/js/shariff/dist/shariff.complete.js"></script> <div class="shariff-wrapper is-flex is-flex-wrap-wrap is-align-items-center"> <p class="typo-teaser-text-bold mgr-medium social-media-title" :class="$el.closest('.modal-card') !== null ? ' mgb-medium ' : '' ">Diesen Artikel teilen</p> <div class="shariff" x-init="window.addEventListener('load', () => { const copyToClipboardOwnButton = ` <li class='shariff-button clipboard'> <a @click='marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard()' href='javascript:void(0)'' rel='nofollow' title='In die Zwischenablage kopieren' role='button' aria-label='In die Zwischenablage kopieren'> <span class='far fa-copy'></span> </a> </li>`; $($el).find('ul').append($(copyToClipboardOwnButton)); });" data-button-style="icons" data-lang="de" data-services="pocket, facebook, x-twitter, whatsapp, email, diaspora, reddit " data-mail-url="mailto:" data-theme="standard" data-mail-subject="Energieversorgung in Deutschland: Salzkavernen sollen Strom speichern" data-mail-body="https://taz.de/Energieversorgung-in-Deutschland/!6029627"> </div> </div> </div> </div> </section> </div> </aside> </div> <div data-pos="not-numeric" data-for="picture" class="column is-12-tablet mgt-medium mgb-0 image-overflow-left webelement-pos-0 mobile-order-4"> <figure id="lightbox--standard" class=" image newsArticleEntry full konvektion-L no-static-aspect-ratio pswp-gallery pswp-gallery--single-column "> <script type="module" src="/lib/taz-verlag-node/js/photoswipe-module.js"></script> <a class="slides icon maximize_opahov large pswp-slides pl-0" href="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/1900/35675205-1.jpeg" data-pswp-width="1900"> <picture style="display: block; " alt="Eine Flagge mit dem Schriftzug von Uniper weht an einem Fahnenmast"> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/1020/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (min-width:750px) and (max-width:1023px) and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio: 1.5)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/665/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (max-device-width:550px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/835/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 835px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/750/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 750px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/665/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 665px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/624/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 624px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/495/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 495px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/410/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 410px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/375/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 375px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/363/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 363px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/310/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 310px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/303/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 303px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/300/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 300px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/242/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 242px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/240/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 240px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/182/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 182px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/140/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 140px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/138/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 138px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/132/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 132px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/109/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 109px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/96/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 96px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/85/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 85px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/73/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 73px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/70/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 70px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/55/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 55px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/48/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 48px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/45/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 45px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/14/35675205-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 14px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <img src="https://taz.de/picture/7201607/14/35675205-1.jpeg" alt="Eine Flagge mit dem Schriftzug von Uniper weht an einem Fahnenmast" title="Eine Flagge mit dem Schriftzug von Uniper weht an einem Fahnenmast"></img> <noscript> <img src=" https://taz.de/picture/7201607/835/35675205-1.jpeg" class=" withcaption" alt="Eine Flagge mit dem Schriftzug von Uniper weht an einem Fahnenmast"></img> </noscript> </picture> </a> </figure> <figcaption class="mgt-xsmall typo-caption caption newsArticleEntry full konvektion-L typo-r-caption-detail "> Der fossile Konzern Uniper forscht zur Speicherung von grünem Wasserstoff <span x-text="isMobile ? '&ensp;' : ''"></span> <span class=" typo-fotocredit "> <span class="credit-name "> Foto: dpa </span> </span> </figcaption> </div> <div class="author-container column is-flex is-flex-wrap-wrap mgt-xlarge mgt-large-mobile p-0 pl-small-medium mgt-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet-only mgh-auto-desktop mobile-order-5"> <div class=" author-pic-name-wrapper is-flex is-flex-wrap-wrap is-justify-content-flex-start is-align-items-center "> <div class="typo-name-detail pr-xsmall pv-small"> <span class="typo-name-detail ">Von </span> <a class="teaser-link" href="/Anton-Dieckhoff/!a163608/"> <span class="typo-name-detail-bold link ">Anton Dieckhoff</span></a> </div> </div> </div> <div class="column main-article-corpus is-12 pt-0 mgt-xlarge mgt-large-mobile mobile-order-6"> <div class="columns is-multiline"> <p class="bodytext paragraph first typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-1" pos="1"><location>Berlin</location> <em class="source">taz</em> | Der Energieversorger Uniper, der zu fast 100 Prozent in Staatshand ist, eröffnet am Montag eine Testanlage für die Speicherung von Wasserstoff in einer Salzkaverne. „Die Erfahrungen dieses Projektes sollen die Grundlage für die Errichtung weiterer, dann kommerzieller, Wasserstoffkavernen bilden“, antwortete Uniper auf Anfrage der taz.</p> <p class="Initial paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-2" pos="2">Es ist das zweite Mal nach 2022, dass getestet wird, ob sich Wasserstoff effizient in Salzkavernen speichern lässt. Nur in den USA und in Großbritannien setzen Firmen bereits auf den kommerziellen Einsatz von Wasserstoffspeichern in Salzkavernen.</p> <div data-pos="2" data-for="webelement_adzone" class="column is-12 pv-0 mgt-0 webelement-wrapper webelement_adzone webelement-pos-2 mobile-order-3"> <div x-data="{ get id() { const mappedId = 'artikel_medrec-1';const initialId = 'artikel_co'; if (marOtaz_de.isMobile() ){ if (initialId === 'artikel_co' || initialId === 'co_mob_2' || initialId === 'co_mob_75') { return 'mobile_banner-2' } if (initialId === 'co_mob_1') { return 'mobile_banner-1' } if (initialId === 'artikel_co2') { return 'mobile_banner-4' } if (initialId === 'uebersicht_medrec-4') { return 'mobile_banner-3' } if (initialId === 'uebersicht_medrec-1') { return 'mobile_banner-1' } if (initialId === 'uebersicht_medrec-2') { return 'mobile_banner-4' } if (initialId === 'artikel_medrec_mitte' || initialId === 'uebersicht_board-1') { return 'mobile_banner_artikel_mitte' } // todo: ne map for uebersicht_board if (initialId === 'ros_billboard-1' && !document.body.classList.contains('isHomepage')) { return '' } if (initialId === 'ros_billboard-1' && document.body.classList.contains('isHomepage')) { return 'mobile_banner-2' } if (initialId === 'ros_top-mitte' || initialId === 'ros_top-rechts' ) { return '' } // no mobile version } if (!marOtaz_de.isBigDesktopScreen() ){ if ( initialId === 'ros_top-rechts') { return '' } // do not show this ad on tablets and small desktop screens / laptops } return mappedId } }" class="is-flex mobile-order-3 full is-justify-content-center is-clipped is-align-items-center ad_zone-container-inner predefined-space " :class="id === '' ? 'is-hidden' : ''" style="height: 250px; box-sizing: content-box;"> <span x-init=" $nextTick(() => {if (id !== '') filOtaz_de.ads.gpt.activateAdFrame( id.replace('-', '_') ) }) " :id="'ad_bin_' + id.replace('-', '_')" class="ad_bin sold contentad"> <div :id="'ad_zone_' + id.replace('-', '_')" :name="id" class="ad_zone ad_zone_contentad ad_zone_badged ad_zone_sold"></div> </span> </div> </div> <p class="bodytext paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-4" pos="3">Salzkavernen sind Formationen aus Salzstein, die in hunderten von Metern Tiefe liegen. Durch den Einsatz von Wasser wird der Stein aufgeweicht und in eine höhlenartige Form gebracht – diesen Vorgang bezeichnet man als „Aussolen“. Diese Höhle wird dann mit Gas – in diesem Fall Wasserstoff – gefüllt. Mithilfe von Druckleveln zwischen 200 und 300 Bar bleibt der Wasserstoff in der Höhle.</p> <h2 class="typo-r-subhead headline column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-5" id="wichtig-f-r-die-stromversorgung" pos="4">Wichtig für die Stromversorgung</h2> <p class="bodytext paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-6" pos="5">In der künftigen Energieversorgung Deutschlands spielen Salzkavernen eine wichtige Rolle. Für den Fall, dass erneuerbare Energien gerade keinen Strom liefern können oder das Netz überlastet ist, muss trotzdem Strom in großen Mengen zur Verfügung stehen. Wasserstoff dient in diesem Fall als Speicher und kann verstromt werden.</p> <p class="bodytext paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-7" pos="6">Damit kann die Unsicherheit eines erneuerbaren Energienetzes ausgeglichen werden. „Im Grunde passiert das Gleiche wie bei der Kohle. Die ist auch lange Zeit ein wichtiger Energiespeicher gewesen, weil man sie lagern kann und jederzeit schneller oder langsamer verbrennen kann“, sagt Detlef Stolten vom Forschungszentrum Jülich.</p> <p class="bodytext paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-8" pos="7">Wasserstoff in Salzkavernen zu speichern, sei außerdem relativ günstig, sagt Stolten. Die Investitionskosten seien vergleichsweise gering und je häufiger ein Kavernenspeicher be- und entladen wird, desto günstiger wird der Strom. Er spricht von zusätzlichen Kosten von ein bis vier Cent pro Kilowattstunde. Batteriespeicher beispielsweise seien deutlich teurer, aber auch flexibler.</p> <div data-pos="7" data-for="webelement_adzone" class="column is-12 pv-0 mgt-0 webelement-wrapper webelement_adzone webelement-pos-7 mobile-order-9"> <div x-data="{ get id() { const mappedId = 'artikel_medrec_mitte';const initialId = 'artikel_medrec_mitte'; if (marOtaz_de.isMobile() ){ if (initialId === 'artikel_co' || initialId === 'co_mob_2' || initialId === 'co_mob_75') { return 'mobile_banner-2' } if (initialId === 'co_mob_1') { return 'mobile_banner-1' } if (initialId === 'artikel_co2') { return 'mobile_banner-4' } if (initialId === 'uebersicht_medrec-4') { return 'mobile_banner-3' } if (initialId === 'uebersicht_medrec-1') { return 'mobile_banner-1' } if (initialId === 'uebersicht_medrec-2') { return 'mobile_banner-4' } if (initialId === 'artikel_medrec_mitte' || initialId === 'uebersicht_board-1') { return 'mobile_banner_artikel_mitte' } // todo: ne map for uebersicht_board if (initialId === 'ros_billboard-1' && !document.body.classList.contains('isHomepage')) { return '' } if (initialId === 'ros_billboard-1' && document.body.classList.contains('isHomepage')) { return 'mobile_banner-2' } if (initialId === 'ros_top-mitte' || initialId === 'ros_top-rechts' ) { return '' } // no mobile version } if (!marOtaz_de.isBigDesktopScreen() ){ if ( initialId === 'ros_top-rechts') { return '' } // do not show this ad on tablets and small desktop screens / laptops } return mappedId } }" class="is-flex mobile-order-3 full is-justify-content-center is-clipped is-align-items-center ad_zone-container-inner predefined-space " :class="id === '' ? 'is-hidden' : ''" style="height: 250px; box-sizing: content-box;"> <span x-init=" $nextTick(() => {if (id !== '') filOtaz_de.ads.gpt.activateAdFrame( id.replace('-', '_') ) }) " :id="'ad_bin_' + id.replace('-', '_')" class="ad_bin sold contentad"> <div :id="'ad_zone_' + id.replace('-', '_')" :name="id" class="ad_zone ad_zone_contentad ad_zone_badged ad_zone_sold"></div> </span> </div> </div> <h2 class="typo-r-subhead headline column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-10" id="enger-zeitplan" pos="8">Enger Zeitplan</h2> <p class="bodytext paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-11" pos="9">Ein Nachteil der Kavernen sei laut Stolten eine mögliche Verunreinigung. In den Kavernen liege am Grund noch Wasser von der Aussolung, das mache den Wasserstoff feuchter, als für die Nutzung sinnvoll sei. Deshalb muss der Wasserstoff, bevor ihn die Industrie nutzen kann, gereinigt werden. Das verursacht zusätzliche Kosten und Aufwand. Wenn er nur für die Verstromung genutzt wird, sei das egal. „Es gibt aber keine getrennten Leitungen für unterschiedliche Qualitäten von Wasserstoff, deshalb muss der immer die gleiche Qualität haben“, sagt Stolten.</p> <p class="bodytext paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-12" pos="10">Ungefähr 200 Terawattstunden Speicherkapazität benötige Deutschland im Jahr 2045, sagt Stolten. Dieser Bedarf sei aber durch unterirdische Speicher in erschöpften und sich noch in Nutzung befindenden Erdgasfeldern, Porenspeichern und eben Salzkavernen deckbar, sagt Katharina Alms vom Fraunhofer-Institut.</p> <p class="bodytext paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-13" pos="11">„Ab 2030 brauchen wir die ersten, spätestens aber ab Mitte der 2030er Jahre viele Salzkavernen, um Wasserstoff dort zu speichern“, sagt Stolten. Also muss die Bundesregierung ab 2025 Salzkavernen-Speicher genehmigen. <a href="/Deutsche-Importstrategie-fuer-Wasserstoff/!6022723/" target="_blank" class="link in-text-link">Das wird allerdings relativ knapp.</a></p> <h2 class="typo-r-subhead headline column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-14" id="verband-mahnt-zur-eile" pos="12">Verband mahnt zur Eile</h2> <p class="bodytext paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-15" pos="13">Experten gehen davon aus, dass Salzkavernen, die von ihrer Nutzung als Erdgasspeicher umgewidmet werden, etwa fünf Jahre brauchen, damit sie als Wasserstoffspeicher benutzbar sind. Neue Salzkavernen, die die Betreiber erst noch aussolen müssen, brauchen mindestens zehn Jahre Vorlaufzeit.</p> <p class="bodytext paragraph typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-16" pos="14">„Das Ministerium arbeitet derzeit an einer Wasserstoffspeicherstrategie, die bis Ende des Jahres vorgelegt werden soll“, sagt das Bundesministerium für Wirtschaft und Klimaschutz der taz. <a href="/Wasserstoff-statt-Kohlekraft-in-Hamburg/!6028312/" target="_blank" class="link in-text-link">Noch gibt es also keine klare Strategie</a>, nur „erste Speicher in Probebetrieb“.</p> <p class="bodytext paragraph last typo-bodytext is-block column pv-0 is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-17" pos="15">Dazu passt <a href="/Wenig-Nachfrage-nach-gruenem-Wasserstoff/!6024375/" target="_blank" class="link in-text-link">die Warnung des EU-Rechnungshofes</a>, der im Juli dieses Jahres sagte, dass „die Industriepolitik der EU beim erneuerbaren Wasserstoff einem Realitätscheck unterzogen werden muss.“ Auch der deutsche Wasserstoffverband mahnt zur Eile: „Tempo ist jetzt angesagt! Deutschland wird schon in den nächsten Jahren einige Terawattstunden an Speicherkapazität benötigen.“</p> </div> </div> <div x-data="{}" class="tzi-bottom-container is-12 pt-large pb-xlarge hasMultiply has-background-highlighted typo-bodytext column mgt-medium mgb-0 mobile-order-7"> <div class="sect_text tziBottom columns is-multiline"> <p class="column is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet headline typo-head-small pv-xsmall mobile-order-1">taz lesen kann jede:r</p> <p class="article column first is-8-tablet mgh-auto-tablet mobile-order-2"> Als Genossenschaft gehören wir unseren Leser:innen. Und unser Journalismus ist nicht nur 100 % konzernfrei, sondern auch kostenfrei zugänglich. Texte, die es nicht allen recht machen und Stimmen, die man woanders nicht hört – immer aus Überzeugung und hier auf taz.de ohne Paywall. Unsere Leser:innen müssen nichts bezahlen, wissen aber, dass guter, kritischer Journalismus nicht aus dem Nichts entsteht. Dafür sind wir sehr dankbar. 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' mgb-medium ' : '' ">Diesen Artikel teilen</p> <div class="shariff" x-init="window.addEventListener('load', () => { const copyToClipboardOwnButton = ` <li class='shariff-button clipboard'> <a @click='marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard()' href='javascript:void(0)'' rel='nofollow' title='In die Zwischenablage kopieren' role='button' aria-label='In die Zwischenablage kopieren'> <span class='far fa-copy'></span> </a> </li>`; $($el).find('ul').append($(copyToClipboardOwnButton)); });" data-button-style="icons" data-lang="de" data-services="pocket, facebook, x-twitter, whatsapp, email, diaspora, reddit " data-mail-url="mailto:" data-theme="standard" data-mail-subject="Energieversorgung in Deutschland: Salzkavernen sollen Strom speichern" data-mail-body="https://taz.de/Energieversorgung-in-Deutschland/!6029627"> </div> </div> </div> </section> <section class="columns force-full-dotted is-multiline " id="articleTeaser"> <header class="column is-12 typo-r-sectiontitle mgb-small-mobile mobile-order-1"> Mehr zum Thema </header> <div class="column article-teaser is-4 dotted pt-0 type-one_third mobile-order-2"> <div class="columns is-multiline "> <div class="column is-12 item 3 mobile-order-1"> <a class="teaser-link " href="/Deutsches-Exportgeschaeft-in-Namibia/!6022790/"> <figure id="" class=" image is-3by2 "> <picture style="display: block; " alt="Solarpannel im Sand."> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/1020/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (min-width:750px) and (max-width:1023px) and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio: 1.5)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/665/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (max-device-width:550px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/310/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 310px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/303/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 303px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/300/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 300px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/242/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 242px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/240/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 240px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/182/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 182px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/140/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 140px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/138/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 138px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/132/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 132px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/109/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 109px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/96/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 96px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/85/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 85px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/73/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 73px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/70/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 70px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/55/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 55px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/48/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 48px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/45/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 45px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/14/35871743-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 14px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <img src="https://taz.de/picture/7142146/14/35871743-1.jpeg" alt="Solarpannel im Sand." loading="lazy" title="Solarpannel im Sand."></img> <noscript> <img src=" https://taz.de/picture/7142146/310/35871743-1.jpeg" class=" withnocaption" alt="Solarpannel im Sand."></img> </noscript> </picture> </figure> </a> </div> <div class="column is-12 mgt-0 item mgt-0-mobile mobile-order-2"> <a href="/Deutsches-Exportgeschaeft-in-Namibia/!6022790/" class="mgt-small-medium-mobile teaser-link"> <span> <p class=" mgb-small typo-r-topline mgr-small"> Deutsches Exportgeschäft in Namibia </p> <p class="headline link typo-r-head-meinung-small mgt-xsmall-mobile mgb-xsmall-mobile mgb-small"> Kolonialer Wasserstoff </p> </span> </a> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-top"> <div class="mgb-small is-flex is-align-items-center "> <div class="author-pic-container is-flex is-flex-shrink-0 "> <div class="is-flex " x-data="marOtaz_de.imageLoader('https://taz.de/kommune/files/images/profile/192x192/.png')" x-init="loadImage"> <template x-if="isLoaded"> <figure class="pr-small is-flex-shrink-0 " title="Alfred Shilongo "> <picture class=" image author-profile "> <img loading="lazy" :src="src" type="image/png" class=" is-rounded " alt="Alfred Shilongo"> </img></picture> </figure> </template> </div> </div> <div> <span class="typo-r-name-reg">Kommentar von</span> <span class="typo-r-name">Alfred Shilongo</span> </div> </div> </div> <div class=" typo-r-subline mgt-xsmall-mobile"> Im Namen des Klimaschutzes setzt Deutschland koloniale Verbrechen fort. Grüner Wasserstoff aus Namibia sollte nicht Leid und Zerstörung bedeuten. </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="column article-teaser is-4 dotted pt-0 type-one_third mobile-order-3"> <div class="columns is-multiline "> <div class="column is-12 item 1 mobile-order-1"> <a class="teaser-link " href="/Wenig-Nachfrage-nach-gruenem-Wasserstoff/!6024375/"> <figure id="" class=" image is-3by2 "> <picture style="display: block; " alt="EU-Flaggen vor der Europäischen Kommission"> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/1020/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (min-width:750px) and (max-width:1023px) and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio: 1.5)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/665/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (max-device-width:550px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/310/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 310px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/303/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 303px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/300/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 300px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/242/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 242px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/240/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 240px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/182/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 182px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/140/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 140px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/138/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 138px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/132/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 132px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/109/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 109px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/96/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 96px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/85/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 85px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/73/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 73px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/70/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 70px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/55/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 55px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/48/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 48px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/45/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 45px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/14/35533712-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 14px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <img src="https://taz.de/picture/7124765/14/35533712-1.jpeg" alt="EU-Flaggen vor der Europäischen Kommission" loading="lazy" title="EU-Flaggen vor der Europäischen Kommission"></img> <noscript> <img src=" https://taz.de/picture/7124765/310/35533712-1.jpeg" class=" withnocaption" alt="EU-Flaggen vor der Europäischen Kommission"></img> </noscript> </picture> </figure> </a> </div> <div class="column is-12 mgt-0 item mgt-0-mobile mobile-order-2"> <a href="/Wenig-Nachfrage-nach-gruenem-Wasserstoff/!6024375/" class="mgt-small-medium-mobile teaser-link"> <span> <p class=" mgb-small typo-r-topline mgr-small"> Wenig Nachfrage nach grünem Wasserstoff </p> <p class="headline link typo-r-head-small mgt-xsmall-mobile mgb-xsmall-mobile mgb-small"> EU-Wasserstoff-Ziele auf der Kippe </p> </span> </a> <div class=" typo-r-subline mgt-xsmall-mobile"> Erneuerbarer Wasserstoff soll der Industrie helfen, die Klimaziele zu erreichen. Der EU-Rechnungshof bemängelt: Das Vorhaben läuft nicht nach Plan. </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="column article-teaser is-4 dotted pt-0 type-one_third mobile-order-4"> <div class="columns is-multiline "> <div class="column is-12 item 1 mobile-order-1"> <a class="teaser-link " href="/Streit-unter-den-Wirtschaftsweisen/!6007657/"> <figure id="" class=" image is-3by2 "> <picture style="display: block; " alt="Veronika Grimm"> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/1020/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (min-width:750px) and (max-width:1023px) and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio: 1.5)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/665/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (max-device-width:550px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/310/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 310px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/303/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 303px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/300/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 300px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/242/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 242px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/240/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 240px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/182/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 182px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/140/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 140px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/138/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 138px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/132/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 132px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/109/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 109px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/96/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 96px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/85/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 85px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/73/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 73px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/70/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 70px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/55/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 55px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/48/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 48px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/45/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 45px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/14/34791266-1.jpeg" media="(min-width: 14px)" type="image/jpeg"></source> <img src="https://taz.de/picture/7001348/14/34791266-1.jpeg" alt="Veronika Grimm" loading="lazy" title="Veronika Grimm"></img> <noscript> <img src=" https://taz.de/picture/7001348/310/34791266-1.jpeg" class=" withnocaption" alt="Veronika Grimm"></img> </noscript> </picture> </figure> </a> </div> <div class="column is-12 mgt-0 item mgt-0-mobile mobile-order-2"> <a href="/Streit-unter-den-Wirtschaftsweisen/!6007657/" class="mgt-small-medium-mobile teaser-link"> <span> <p class=" mgb-small typo-r-topline mgr-small"> Streit unter den Wirtschaftsweisen </p> <p class="headline link typo-r-head-small mgt-xsmall-mobile mgb-xsmall-mobile mgb-small"> Vorwürfe wegen Wasserstoff-Plädoyer </p> </span> </a> <div class=" typo-r-subline mgt-xsmall-mobile"> Wirtschaftsweise Veronika Grimm spricht sich für Wasserstoff im Güterverkehr aus. Das ist brisant, weil sie bei Siemens Energy im Aufsichtsrat sitzt. </div> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-top"> <div class="mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center "> <div> <span class="typo-r-name-reg">Von</span> <span class="typo-r-name">Bernward Janzing</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </section> <section class="module columns article-produktteaser-container hasMultiply has-background has-background-highlighted"> <div class="column is-12-tablet pt-0 mobile-order-1"> <div class="columns is-multiline " style="height: 100%"> <div class="pic-column column is-6-tablet mobile-order-1"> <a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="https://shop.taz.de/product_info.php?products_id=245431#matomo:pk_campaign=exK-auf-Geschenk-Abo-Produkt-im-Shop&pk_source=taz.de&pk_medium=taz.de-Redaktion&pk_content=aus-kampagne&pk_kwd=artikelplatz-marginal-redaktion&pk_placement=im-Artikel"> <figure id="" class=" image no-static-aspect-ratio "> <picture style="display: block; " alt=""> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/1020/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.webp" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (min-width:750px) and (max-width:1023px) and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio: 1.5)" type="image/webp"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/665/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.webp" media="(max-device-aspect-ratio: 1/1) and (max-device-width:550px)" type="image/webp"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/480/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.webp" media="(min-width: 480px)" type="image/webp"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/395/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.webp" media="(min-width: 395px)" type="image/webp"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/310/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.webp" media="(min-width: 310px)" type="image/webp"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/300/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.webp" media="(min-width: 300px)" type="image/webp"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/140/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.webp" media="(min-width: 140px)" type="image/webp"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/14/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.webp" media="(min-width: 14px)" type="image/webp"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/480/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.png" media="(min-width: 480px)" type="image/png"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/395/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.png" media="(min-width: 395px)" type="image/png"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/310/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.png" media="(min-width: 310px)" type="image/png"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/300/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.png" media="(min-width: 300px)" type="image/png"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/140/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.png" media="(min-width: 140px)" type="image/png"></source> <source srcset="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/14/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.png" media="(min-width: 14px)" type="image/png"></source> <img src="https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/14/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.png" loading="lazy"></img> <noscript> <img src=" https://taz.de/images/p/ab/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333/480/abo_xmas_web_2000x1333.webp" class=" withnocaption" alt=""></img> </noscript> </picture> </figure> </a> </div> <div class="text-column column is-6-tablet mobile-order-2"> <a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="https://shop.taz.de/product_info.php?products_id=245431#matomo:pk_campaign=exK-auf-Geschenk-Abo-Produkt-im-Shop&pk_source=taz.de&pk_medium=taz.de-Redaktion&pk_content=aus-kampagne&pk_kwd=artikelplatz-marginal-redaktion&pk_placement=im-Artikel"> <span> <p class="headline typo-topline has-text-primary"> taz Geschenkabo inklusive GEPA-Kerzen </p> <p class="headline typo-head-small "> Licht und Liebe schenken </p> </span> <div class="typo-subline mgt-small mgt-xsmall-mobile"> Geschenke, die nachhaltigen Eindruck machen, sind die schönsten. Verschenken Sie dieses Weihnachten ein 10-wöchiges Abo der taz! Die taz ist natürlich selbst schon ein Lichtblick, aber wir legen noch sechs faire GEPA-Kerzen dazu. <span class="typo-teaser-text"> </span> </div> <div class="typo-price-large mgt-medium"> </div> </a> <div class="mgt-auto"> <a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="https://shop.taz.de/product_info.php?products_id=245431#matomo:pk_campaign=exK-auf-Geschenk-Abo-Produkt-im-Shop&pk_source=taz.de&pk_medium=taz.de-Redaktion&pk_content=aus-kampagne&pk_kwd=artikelplatz-marginal-redaktion&pk_placement=im-Artikel" class="button primary-button typo-button-text"> Jetzt bestellen </a> </div> </div> </div> </div> </section> <script type="application/ld+json"> {"@context":"https://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","articleBody":"\n \n Berlin taz | Der Energieversorger Uniper, der zu fast 100 Prozent in Staatshand ist, eröffnet am Montag eine Testanlage für die Speicherung von Wasserstoff in einer Salzkaverne. „Die Erfahrungen dieses Projektes sollen die Grundlage für die Errichtung weiterer, dann kommerzieller, Wasserstoffkavernen bilden“, antwortete Uniper auf Anfrage der taz.\n Es ist das zweite Mal nach 2022, dass getestet wird, ob sich Wasserstoff effizient in Salzkavernen speichern lässt. Nur in den USA und in Großbritannien setzen Firmen bereits auf den kommerziellen Einsatz von Wasserstoffspeichern in Salzkavernen.\n \n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n Salzkavernen sind Formationen aus Salzstein, die in hunderten von Metern Tiefe liegen. Durch den Einsatz von Wasser wird der Stein aufgeweicht und in eine höhlenartige Form gebracht – diesen Vorgang bezeichnet man als „Aussolen“. Diese Höhle wird dann mit Gas – in diesem Fall Wasserstoff – gefüllt. Mithilfe von Druckleveln zwischen 200 und 300 Bar bleibt der Wasserstoff in der Höhle.\n Wichtig für die Stromversorgung\n In der künftigen Energieversorgung Deutschlands spielen Salzkavernen eine wichtige Rolle. Für den Fall, dass erneuerbare Energien gerade keinen Strom liefern können oder das Netz überlastet ist, muss trotzdem Strom in großen Mengen zur Verfügung stehen. Wasserstoff dient in diesem Fall als Speicher und kann verstromt werden.\n Damit kann die Unsicherheit eines erneuerbaren Energienetzes ausgeglichen werden. „Im Grunde passiert das Gleiche wie bei der Kohle. Die ist auch lange Zeit ein wichtiger Energiespeicher gewesen, weil man sie lagern kann und jederzeit schneller oder langsamer verbrennen kann“, sagt Detlef Stolten vom Forschungszentrum Jülich.\n Wasserstoff in Salzkavernen zu speichern, sei außerdem relativ günstig, sagt Stolten. Die Investitionskosten seien vergleichsweise gering und je häufiger ein Kavernenspeicher be- und entladen wird, desto günstiger wird der Strom. Er spricht von zusätzlichen Kosten von ein bis vier Cent pro Kilowattstunde. Batteriespeicher beispielsweise seien deutlich teurer, aber auch flexibler.\n \n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n Enger Zeitplan\n Ein Nachteil der Kavernen sei laut Stolten eine mögliche Verunreinigung. In den Kavernen liege am Grund noch Wasser von der Aussolung, das mache den Wasserstoff feuchter, als für die Nutzung sinnvoll sei. Deshalb muss der Wasserstoff, bevor ihn die Industrie nutzen kann, gereinigt werden. Das verursacht zusätzliche Kosten und Aufwand. Wenn er nur für die Verstromung genutzt wird, sei das egal. „Es gibt aber keine getrennten Leitungen für unterschiedliche Qualitäten von Wasserstoff, deshalb muss der immer die gleiche Qualität haben“, sagt Stolten.\n Ungefähr 200 Terawattstunden Speicherkapazität benötige Deutschland im Jahr 2045, sagt Stolten. Dieser Bedarf sei aber durch unterirdische Speicher in erschöpften und sich noch in Nutzung befindenden Erdgasfeldern, Porenspeichern und eben Salzkavernen deckbar, sagt Katharina Alms vom Fraunhofer-Institut.\n „Ab 2030 brauchen wir die ersten, spätestens aber ab Mitte der 2030er Jahre viele Salzkavernen, um Wasserstoff dort zu speichern“, sagt Stolten. Also muss die Bundesregierung ab 2025 Salzkavernen-Speicher genehmigen. Das wird allerdings relativ knapp.\n Verband mahnt zur Eile\n Experten gehen davon aus, dass Salzkavernen, die von ihrer Nutzung als Erdgasspeicher umgewidmet werden, etwa fünf Jahre brauchen, damit sie als Wasserstoffspeicher benutzbar sind. Neue Salzkavernen, die die Betreiber erst noch aussolen müssen, brauchen mindestens zehn Jahre Vorlaufzeit.\n „Das Ministerium arbeitet derzeit an einer Wasserstoffspeicherstrategie, die bis Ende des Jahres vorgelegt werden soll“, sagt das Bundesministerium für Wirtschaft und Klimaschutz der taz. Noch gibt es also keine klare Strategie, nur „erste Speicher in Probebetrieb“.\n Dazu passt die Warnung des EU-Rechnungshofes, der im Juli dieses Jahres sagte, dass „die Industriepolitik der EU beim erneuerbaren Wasserstoff einem Realitätscheck unterzogen werden muss.“ Auch der deutsche Wasserstoffverband mahnt zur Eile: „Tempo ist jetzt angesagt! Deutschland wird schon in den nächsten Jahren einige Terawattstunden an Speicherkapazität benötigen.“\n ","isAccessibleForFree":"true","mainEntityOfPage":"https://taz.de/Energieversorgung-in-Deutschland/!6029627/","url":"https://taz.de/Energieversorgung-in-Deutschland/!6029627/","headline":"Energieversorgung in Deutschland: Salzkavernen sollen Strom speichern","description":"Uniper testet Wasserstoffspeicher in Salzkavernen. Diese Speicher könnten schon bald enorm wichtig werden für Deutschland. Die Risiken sind gering.","image":"https://taz.de/picture/7201607/948/35675205-1.jpeg","author":[{"@type":"Person","name":"Anton Dieckhoff","url":"https://taz.de/Anton-Dieckhoff/!a163608/"}],"publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"taz","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","url":"https://taz.de/lib/taz-verlag-node/icons/DT_taz_logo-min.svg"}},"datePublished":"2024-08-25T15:56:00+02:00"} </script> <section class="columns is-multiline "> <div id="kommune" name="kommune" class="mini news community page column is-12 mobile-order-1" :class="[ isClosed ? 'is-closed' : 'is-not-closed', loggedIn ? 'is-logged-in' : 'is-not-logged-in' , writeBoxIsInReplyLayout ? ' is-writebox-reply ' : ' is-writebox-initial ']" x-data="{ reportid: '', // if report is clicked, the id of reported comment used by report() below isClosed: true, replyid: '', // ditto for reply, used by reply() below writeBoxIsInReplyLayout: false, get loggedIn(){ if (typeof Alpine.store('TazUser') !== 'undefined') { return Alpine.store('TazUser').isLoggedIn } else { return false } }, report(commentid) { this.reportid = commentid const modal = document.querySelector('#modal-user__kommune_comments_report') modal.classList.toggle('is-active') }, reply(event, commentid) { this.replyid = commentid; const writebox = document.getElementById('container-user__kommune_comments_write'); this.writeBoxIsInReplyLayout = true; event.target.closest('.toolbar').after(writebox); } }"> <section role="region" class="columns is-multiline typo-r-subline-detail"> <div class="is-8 is-offset-2 column mobile-order-1"> <div class="is-flex"> <p class="headline typo-head-small "> 20 Kommentare </p> <div x-data="{ order: 'desc' }" class="mgl-auto is-flex is-align-items-center"> <button @click="order = 'desc'; sortCommentsByDateTime(order) " :class="{ 'is-active is-underlined': order === 'desc' }" class="typo-meta-data icon-link-text"> Neueste </button> /  <button @click="order = 'asc'; sortCommentsByDateTime(order) " :class="{ 'is-active is-underlined': order === 'asc' }" class="typo-meta-data icon-link-text"> Älteste </button> </div> </div> </div> <div class="is-12 column mobile-order-2"> <div id="kommune_login"></div> <style> #noPicAvatar { position: relative; } #noPicAvatar::before { content: ""; position: absolute; width: 55px; height: 55px; background-size: 55px 55px; border-radius: 50%; background-image: var(--avatar-url); z-index: 3; } </style> <div id="original-container-user__kommune_comments_write"> <div id="container-user__kommune_comments_write" :class="writeBoxIsInReplyLayout ? 'mgl-xxxlarge-negative' : ''" x-data="{ commentboxFocused: false, // If true, then cursor is within comment box triggering 'focused' event avatar: false, noPicAvatar: '', username: false, userComment: '', // user's comment in textarea busy: false, // if true, disables submit button errorMsg: '', // deprecated: API response error message to potentially use somewhere userProfileUrl: '', init() { // moved to higher level. This is not needed anymore? if (typeof Alpine.store('TazUser') === 'undefined') { Alpine.store('TazUser', { isLoggedIn: false }) } document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', async () => { await this.checkIfLoggedIn(); // console.log(user.src) }); }, async checkIfLoggedIn() { $store.TazUser.isLoggedIn = window.TazUser.isLoggedIn() if ($store.TazUser.isLoggedIn) { this.userProfileUrl = 'https://taz.de/!ku' + window.TazUser.getUserId(); const user = await window.TazUser.getOwnUserNameAndAvatar(); this.avatar = 'https://taz.de/' + user.src this.username = user.name; // todo: bring together with serversite redundant code and create global function !! try { const defaultBgColor = { l: 97, c: 0.05, h: 297.71, }; const defaultFgColor = { l: 35, c: 0.15, h: 297.71, }; function stringToFloatInRange(inputString) { // Funktion, um einen String in eine Zahl im Bereich von 0.00 bis 359.99 umzuwandeln function hashString(str) { let hash = 0; if (str.length === 0) return hash; for (let i = 0; i < str.length; i++) { const char = str.charCodeAt(i); hash = ((hash << 5) - hash) + char; hash &= hash; // Convert to 32bit integer } return hash; } // Hash-Funktion auf den Eingabestring anwenden const hashedValue = hashString(inputString); // Umwandlung des gehashten Werts in den Bereich von 0 bis 35999 const scaledValue = Math.abs(hashedValue) % 36000; // Umwandlung in eine Fließkommazahl im Bereich von 0.00 bis 359.99 const floatValue = scaledValue / 100; return floatValue.toFixed(2); // Runden auf 2 Dezimalstellen } const username = user.name; const secondChar = username.match(' ([A-za-z0-9])'); let usernameShort = username.match('[A-Za-z0-9]')[0] + (secondChar ? secondChar[1] : ''); usernameShort = usernameShort.toUpperCase(); const usernameHueAngle = stringToFloatInRange(username); const bgCol = `oklch(${defaultBgColor.l}% ${defaultBgColor.c} ${usernameHueAngle})`; const fgCol = `oklch(${defaultFgColor.l}% ${defaultFgColor.c} ${usernameHueAngle})`; this.noPicAvatar = ` <div title='${username}' class='image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold' style='background-color:${bgCol}; color:${fgCol};'> <span>${usernameShort}</span> </div>`; } catch (error) { console.error('Error generating username short name or color: (usually no characters but only sonderzeichen )', error); } } }, openLoginModal() { /* TODO: consider improving: auto-focus on username box */ document.querySelector('#modal-nn00sj741.modal').classList.toggle('is-active') }, loginOrWriteComment(targetEl) { this.checkIfLoggedIn() if ($store.TazUser.isLoggedIn) { this.commentboxFocused = true } else { targetEl.blur(); this.openLoginModal() } }, resetCommentbox() { this.commentboxFocused = false this.replyid = '' this.userComment = '' const writebox = document.getElementById('container-user__kommune_comments_write') const original_location = document.getElementById('original-container-user__kommune_comments_write') original_location.appendChild(writebox); writeBoxIsInReplyLayout = false; }, postComment() { if (!$store.TazUser.isLoggedIn) { window.popToast('Bitte loggen sie zuerst ein') return false } // Disables 'submit' button this.busy = true console.log('Post comment: ' + this.userComment) // TODO: check to URI-escape this properly please const postCommentData = { id: 6029627, scope: 'cms-article', post: this.userComment, asid: this.replyid, // Injects reply Post ID from parent .community div's x-data } const result = window.TazUser.postComment(postCommentData); result.then((result) => { console.log(result); if (result.success) { this.errorMsg = result.success ? '' : result.message window.popToast('Danke für lhren Kommentar. Er wartet nun auf Freischaltung. Bitte haben Sie Geduld und senden Sie ihn nicht mehrfach ab. ' + this.errorMsg) this.resetCommentbox() } else { this.errorMsg = result.success ? '' : result.message window.popToast('Ein Fehler ist aufgetreten. ' + this.errorMsg) } }).finally(() => { this.busy = false }) }, }"> <form name="form" method="post" id="kommune_form_postcomment" class="form sect sect_form js jsFormtaz_Kommune_user_comment_login first" x-on:submit.prevent="postComment()" x-on:keyup.ctrl.enter="postComment()"> <div class="columns is-multiline is-mobile "> <div class="avatar-container kommune_newcomment_avatar column is-1-tablet is-6-mobile mobile-order-1" :class="writeBoxIsInReplyLayout ? ' pl-small ' : ' is-offset-2 '"> <button type="button" x-on:click="openLoginModal()" id="noPicAvatar" x-html="noPicAvatar" :style="if (avatar && loggedIn) return '--avatar-url: url(' + avatar + ')'"></button> </div> <div class="comment-form-container jsForm form-group input-group column is-12-mobile mobile-order-3" :class="writeBoxIsInReplyLayout ? ' is-10-tablet is-11-mobile ' : ' is-7-tablet is-10-mobile '"> <span class="has-background-background-forms p-small-medium typo-short-text"> Die Kommentarfunktion unter diesem Artikel ist geschlossen. </span> </div> <div class="logged-in-state-container mobile-order-2 is-6-mobile column mgt-0 " :class="writeBoxIsInReplyLayout ? ' is-1 ' : ' '" style="position: relative;" x-data="{showUserDropdown: false}"> <div class="is-flex is-align-items-center"> <button class="mgl-auto-mobile is-flex icon-link-wrapper is-align-items-center" role="button" type="button" @click="showUserDropdown = !showUserDropdown"> <span class=" icon login_redhov medium center" :class="isMobile && loggedIn ? ' more-bottom ' : ' '"></span> <span x-cloak="" class=" typo-meta-data cursor-pointer icon-link-text" x-text=" loggedIn ? '' : 'einloggen'"></span> </button> <div x-cloak="" x-show="showUserDropdown" @click.away="showUserDropdown = false" style=" position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 30;" class=" p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay typo-form-input-entry " @click=" showUserDropdown = false"> <div x-show="!$store.TazUser.isLoggedIn"> <a class="is-clickable" @click="openLoginModal();"><div class="">Einloggen</div></a> <a href="https://taz.de/kommune/post.php?a=registration" target="_blank" class="is-clickable"><div class="mgt-small-medium">Registrieren</div></a> <a href="https://portal.taz.de/?a=nopw" target="_blank" class="is-clickable"><div class="mgt-small-medium">Passwort vergessen?</div></a> </div> <div x-show="$store.TazUser.isLoggedIn"> <a :href="userProfileUrl !== '' ? userProfileUrl : 'javascript:void(0)' " class="is-clickable"><div class="mgt-small-medium">Profil anzeigen</div> </a> <a href="https://taz.de/kommune/post.php?a=registration" target="_blank" class="is-clickable"><div class="mgt-small-medium">Profil bearbeiten</div> </a> <a class="is-clickable" @click="openLoginModal(); " x-show="$store.TazUser.isLoggedIn"><div class="mgt-small-medium">Logout</div></a> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="columns is-multiline is-mobile " x-show="$store.TazUser.isLoggedIn && commentboxFocused" style="display:none"> <div class="column is-12-mobile mobile-order-1" :class="writeBoxIsInReplyLayout ? ' mgl-xxxlarge mgl-0-mobile ' : ' is-offset-3 is-6-tablet '"> <div class="is-flex "> <button type="submit" id="taz_Kommune[newcomment_post]" class=" mobile-order-2 tablet-order-2 mgr-medium submit button typo-button-text primary-button mgt-0 " x-bind:disabled="busy" tabindex="1" title="Abschicken">Abschicken </button> <button type="button" id="taz_Kommune[newcomment_cancel]" class=" mobile-order-2 tablet-order-2 mgr-medium submit button typo-button-text secondary-button mgt-0 " @click="resetCommentbox()" tabindex="1" title="Abbrechen">Abbrechen </button> </div> </div> <div class="column mgt-small is-12-mobile mobile-order-2" :class="writeBoxIsInReplyLayout ? ' mgl-xxxlarge mgl-0-mobile is-10-tablet ' : ' is-offset-3 is-7-tablet '"> <div class="has-background-background-forms p-small-medium" x-show="$store.TazUser.isLoggedIn && commentboxFocused" style="display:none"> <p class=" typo-form-input-topline "> Bitte halten Sie sich an unsere <a href="/LeserInnen-Kommentare/!118006/" target="_blank" class="has-text link">Netiquette</a>.<br> Haben Sie Probleme beim Kommentieren oder Registrieren? Dann mailen Sie uns bitte an <a href="mailto:kommune@taz.de" class="has-text link"> kommune@taz.de</a>. </br></p> </div> </div> </div> </form> <aside id="modal-nn00sj741" class="modal article module-article"> <div class="modal-background"></div> <div class="modal-card "> <header class="is-flex is-flex-direction-column modal-card-head"> <div class="is-flex full is-align-items-flex-start is-flex-direction-row "> <p class="full mgr-medium typo-head-medium">Login Kommune</p> <button type="button" role="button" class="mgl-auto delete-modal icon medium-large close_circle_redhov" aria-label="close"> </button> </div> <div class="dotted-inline mgt-medium" style="display:initial"></div> </header> <section class="modal-card-body pt-0"> <div class="columns is-flex is-justify-content-center"> <div class="column is-8 mobile-order-1"> <div><div class="kommune_login_modal "> <script type="module"> import { TazUser } from '/lib/taz-verlag-node/js/user_auth.js' if (typeof window.TazUser === 'undefined') { window.TazUser = TazUser } </script> <div x-data="{ // TODO: To keep modular this has its own isLoggedIn state function (though has been called already in ...comments_write.html ) init() { if (typeof Alpine.store('TazUser') === 'undefined') { Alpine.store('TazUser', { isLoggedIn: false }) } document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', () => { $store.TazUser.isLoggedIn = window.TazUser.isLoggedIn(); }); }, email: '', password: '', errorMsg: '', busy: false, closeParentModal(el) { // close modal (if login or logout box is wrapped in modal) const modal = el.closest('.modal') if (modal) { setTimeout(function() {modal.classList.remove('is-active')}, 0); // const input = $(el).find('input[type=submit]'); // input.attr('type', 'text').removeClass('button').text('Eingeloggt'); // console.log('input', input) } }, logout() { this.email = ''; this.password = ''; this.busy = true const result = window.TazUser.logoutUser({email: '', password: ''}); result.then((result) => { this.errorMsg = result.success ? '' : result.message window.popToast(result.message) $store.TazUser.isLoggedIn = window.TazUser.isLoggedIn() if (result.success) { this.errorMsg = '' this.closeParentModal($el) } }).finally(() => { this.busy = false }) }, login() { this.busy = true const result = window.TazUser.loginUser({email: this.email, password: this.password}); result.then((result) => { this.errorMsg = result.success ? '' : result.message window.popToast(result.message) $store.TazUser.isLoggedIn = window.TazUser.isLoggedIn() if (result.success) { this.errorMsg = '' this.closeParentModal($el) } }).finally(() => { this.busy = false }) }, }"> <div class="errormsg has-text-primary typo-r-subline-detail" x-text="errorMsg" x-show="errorMsg"> </div> <form name="form" method="post" id="taz-user-login" class="form sect sect_form js jsFormtaz_Kommune_user_comment_login first typo-r-subline-detail" x-show="!$store.TazUser.isLoggedIn" x-on:submit.prevent="login()"> <p class="mgb-large">Sie können nur als eingeloggter taz-User kommentieren. Sie haben noch keinen taz-Account? <a href="https://taz.de/kommune/post.php?a=registration" class="link in-text-link has-text">Registrieren Sie sich hier</a>.</p> <div class="line_field field"> <div class="input_label_wrapper is-flex is-align-items-center wrapper_text "> <input name="taz_Kommune[email]" id="taz_Kommune[email]" type="text" class="text form-control typo-form-input-entry has-background-white input right has-border" tabindex="1" x-model="email"></input> <label for="taz_Kommune[email]" class="is-flex is-align-items-center label typo-form-input-topline"> <span> E-Mail </span> </label> </div> </div> <div class="line_field field"> <div class="input_label_wrapper is-flex is-align-items-center wrapper_text "> <input name="taz_Kommune[password]" id="taz_Kommune[password]" type="password" class="text form-control typo-form-input-entry has-background-white input right has-border" tabindex="1" x-model="password"></input> <label for="taz_Kommune[password]" class="is-flex is-align-items-center label typo-form-input-topline"> <span> Passwort </span> </label> </div> </div> <p class="mgt-medium mgb-large"> <a href="https://portal.taz.de/?a=nopw" class="link in-text-link has-text">Passwort vergessen</a> </p> <button type="submit" id="taz_Kommune[login_button]" class=" mobile-order-2 tablet-order-2 mgr-medium submit button typo-button-text primary-button " x-bind:disabled="busy" tabindex="1" title="Einloggen">Einloggen </button> </form> <form name="form" method="post" enctype="application/x-www-form-urlencoded" id="send-comment" class="${this.styleFormClass}" x-show="$store.TazUser.isLoggedIn" x-on:submit.prevent="logout()"> <p class="typo-r-subline-detail "> Sie sind eingeloggt. </p> <button type="submit" id="taz_Kommune[logout_button]" class=" mobile-order-2 tablet-order-2 mgr-medium submit button typo-button-text primary-button " x-bind:disabled="busy" tabindex="1" title="Ausloggen">Ausloggen </button> </form> </div></div></div> </div> </div> </section> </div> </aside> </div> </div> <aside id="modal-user__kommune_comments_report" class="modal article module-article"> <div class="modal-background"></div> <div class="modal-card small"> <header class="is-flex is-flex-direction-column modal-card-head"> <div class="is-flex full is-align-items-flex-start is-flex-direction-row "> <p class="full mgr-medium typo-head-medium">Kommentar melden</p> <button type="button" role="button" class="mgl-auto delete-modal icon medium-large close_circle_redhov" aria-label="close"> </button> </div> <div class="dotted-inline mgt-medium" style="display:initial"></div> </header> <section class="modal-card-body pt-0"> <div class="columns is-flex is-justify-content-center"> <div class="column is-8 mobile-order-1"> <div x-data="{ commentReport: '', // meldung of a comment busy: false, reportComment() { this.busy = true // TODO: check to URI-escape this properly please const reportData = { post: this.commentReport, pid: this.reportid, // Injects reported Post ID from parent .community div's x-data } console.log(reportData) const result = window.TazUser.reportComment(reportData); result.then((result) => { console.log(result); this.errorMsg = result.status ? '' : result.message window.popToast('Der Kommentar wurde gemeldet.') }).finally(() => { // Enable the 'submit' button again this.busy = false }) }, }"> <form name="form" method="post" id="kommune_form_postcomment" class="form sect sect_form js jsFormtaz_Kommune_user_comment_login first" x-on:submit.prevent="reportComment()"> <p>Informationen zu allgemeinen Moderationskriterien sind in unserer <a class="link in-text-link" href="/LeserInnen-Kommentare/!118006/">Netiquette</a> zusammengefasst.</p> <div class="mgt-medium"> <div class="text_field field" x-data="{count: 0 }"> <div class="input_label_wrapper is-flex is-flex-direction-column is-justify-content-center wrapper_textarea"> <textarea name="taz_Kommune[kommentar_melden_input]" id="taz_Kommune[kommentar_melden_input]" class="text input typo-form-input-entry has-border" placeholder="Warum halten Sie diesen Kommentar für problematisch?" tabindex="1" x-ref="countme" x-on:keyup="count = $refs.countme.value.length" x-model="commentReport"> </textarea> <label class="label typo-form-input-topline "> Meldegrund </label> </div> <div class="mgt-xsmall typo-notifications-inline charCounter mgb-small-medium"> <span :class="count >= $refs.countme.maxLength ? 'has-text-notifications-error-text' : 'has-text-notifications-success-text'" x-html="count"></span> von <span x-html="$refs.countme.maxLength"></span><span> Zeichen</span> </div> </div> </div> <div class="is-pulled-left mgb-medium"> <button type="submit" id="taz_Kommune[kommentar_melden_submit]" class=" mobile-order-2 tablet-order-2 mgr-medium submit button typo-button-text primary-button mgt-large " x-bind:disabled="busy" tabindex="1" title="Kommentar melden">Kommentar melden </button> </div> </form> </div> </div> </div> </section> </div> </aside> </div> </section> <ul class="comments-list comments-container columns is-multiline "> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium " id="bb_message_4823068" data-cid="4823068"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 352.04); color:oklch(35% 0.15 352.04);"> <span>S</span> </div> </a> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">sollndas</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823068'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T10:13:30+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">10:13 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <p>"Mithilfe von Druckleveln zwischen 200 und 300 Bar..."<br></br><br></br> "Ungefähr 200 Terrawattstunden Speicherkapazität..."<br></br><br></br> Interessant. Bei 300 bar entspricht das einem Wasserstoffvolumen von ca. 222 Millionen Kubikmetern. Dafür muss erst mal das gleiche Volumen Salz ausgewaschen werden, also ca. 480 Millionen Tonnen. Das 1,7-fache der derzeitigen Welt-Jahresfördeung, das 31-fache der Jahresförderung in Deutschland.<br></br><br></br> Wo soll die Salzbrühe hin? Da war doch kürzlich was mit K+S... [1]<br></br><br></br> Ich stelle schon mal das Popcorn kalt. <br></br><br></br> [1] <a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_und_Salz_AG#Salzl%C3%B6sungseinleitung_in_die_Werra" target="_blank" class="link in-text-link">de.wikipedia.org/w...itung_in_die_Werra</a></p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823068)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">sollndas antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823310" data-cid="4823310"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku80271/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 209.09); color:oklch(35% 0.15 209.09);"> <span>NR</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku80271/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Nafets Rehcsif</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823310'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T13:12:01+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">13:12 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@sollndas:</span> <p>Die Kavernen gibt es längst… Das Aussolen geschieht seit Jahrzehnten zur Solegewinnung für die Industrie („Salzwasser“ reicht denen oft).</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823310)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Nafets Rehcsif antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823804" data-cid="4823804"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 352.04); color:oklch(35% 0.15 352.04);"> <span>S</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">sollndas</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823804'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T20:53:54+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">20:53 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Nafets Rehcsif:</span> <p>"Die Kavernen gibt es längst…"<br></br><br></br> Ja, klar, selbst ich weiß, dass es Kavernen gibt. Aber sind die unter anderen Gesichtspunkten (Salzgewinnung) ausgesolten Kavernen auch für Wasserstoff geeignet??<br></br><br></br> Für Belege wäre ich dankbar.</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823804)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">sollndas antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> </ul> </ul> </li> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium " id="bb_message_4822590" data-cid="4822590"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 253.77); color:oklch(35% 0.15 253.77);"> <span>JS</span> </div> </a> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jörg Schubert</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4822590'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-25T17:13:20+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">25.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">17:13 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <p>Oder mal eine ganz andere Idee:</p> <p>Ließe sich so eine Riesenwärmepumpe bauen?</p> <p>Z.B. so: In einer größeren Kammer wird Gas bei niedrigem Druck gelagert. Dieses wird beim Einspeichern in eine kleinere Kammer mit hohem Druck verflüssigt. Dabei wird nutzbare Wärme frei.</p> <p>Beim Ausspeichern wird die zur Verdampfung des Gases notwendige Wärme der Umwelt entnommen. Der entstehende Gasdruck treibt eine Turbine und erzeugt Strom. Günstige Wärmequellen wären Flüsse, Seen oder das Meer.</p> <p>Natürlich ist so etwas kein Perpetuum Mobile. Hauptnutzen wäre die Abwärme beim Einspeichern. Interessant wäre aber auch, wie viel Strom am Ende rückgewonnen werden könnte.</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4822590)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jörg Schubert antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823242" data-cid="4823242"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku39365/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 175.17); color:oklch(35% 0.15 175.17);"> <span>S</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku39365/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Salve</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823242'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T12:30:34+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">12:30 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Jörg Schubert:</span> <p>Auch E-Methan läuft über den Zwischenschritt der Elektrolyse, der Wasserstoff müsste also ohnehin erzeugt werden. Dazu kommt dann noch Wirkungsgradverlust bei der Methanisierung und derzeit noch der Bedarf an Quellen von Luft mit hoher CO2-Konzentration, de facto aus Schornsteinen hinter (meist fossilbasierten) Verbrennungsprozessen. Klar, unsere Infrastruktur ist zu Teilen auf Methan ausgelegt, aber nur deshalb die inefizientere Methode der Energiespeicherung zu wählen, wenn eine Tavernennutzung / Umrüstung des derzeitigen Gasnetztes für höhere Beimengquoten an H2 im Methan, oder auf komplett "H2-ready" wird mittelfristig günstiger sein</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823242)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Salve antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> </ul> </li> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium " id="bb_message_4822564" data-cid="4822564"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 352.04); color:oklch(35% 0.15 352.04);"> <span>S</span> </div> </a> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">sollndas</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4822564'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-25T16:30:01+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">25.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">16:30 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <p>"Ungefähr 200 Terrawattstunden Speicherkapazität benötige Deutschland im Jahr 2045..."<br></br><br></br> Wir haben in Deutschland derzeit ca. 250 TWh Erdgasspeicher. In die könnte man problemlos auch E- und Biomethan reinfüllen.<br></br><br></br> Wäre aber wohl zu einfach, und vor allem zu wenig dran verdient. <br></br><br></br> Eine neue Folge der beliebten Serie: "Wie mache ich die Energiewende unbezahlbar?"</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4822564)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">sollndas antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823019" data-cid="4823019"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 253.77); color:oklch(35% 0.15 253.77);"> <span>JS</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jörg Schubert</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823019'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T09:44:30+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">09:44 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@sollndas:</span> <p>Biogas ist in nennenswerten Mengen verfügbar?</p> <p>E-Methan ist einfach und bezahlbar?</p> <p>Hier ist wohl der Wunsch, der Vater des Gendankens...</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823019)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jörg Schubert antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823249" data-cid="4823249"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 352.04); color:oklch(35% 0.15 352.04);"> <span>S</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">sollndas</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823249'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T12:33:05+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">12:33 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Jörg Schubert:</span> <p>E-Methan lässt sich recht einfach aus Wasserstoff und Kohlendioxid machen [1]. Wenn man den Wasserstoff denn erst mal hat.<br></br><br></br> Und Biomethan wird schon ein Bisschen mehr, wenn man auf solche Skurrilitäten wie "Grüner Wasserstoff aus Biomethan" [2] verzichtet :-) <br></br><br></br> [1] <a href="https://tes-h2.com/de/blog/was-ist-e-ng-und-wie-wird-es-fuer-das-erreichen-von-netto-null-entscheidend-sein" target="_blank" class="link in-text-link">tes-h2.com/de/blog...-entscheidend-sein</a><br></br><br></br> [2] <a href="https://taz.de/Gruener-Wasserstoff-aus-Biogas/!6002876/" target="_blank" class="link in-text-link">taz.de/Gruener-Was...s-Biogas/!6002876/</a></p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823249)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">sollndas antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> </ul> </ul> </li> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium " id="bb_message_4822560" data-cid="4822560"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku145624/"> <figure class="is-flex-shrink-0"> <img class="image is-rounded author-profile is-large" src="https://taz.de/kommune/files/images/profile/192x192/145624.webp"> </img></figure> </a> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku145624/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Stoersender</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4822560'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-25T16:24:22+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">25.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">16:24 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <p>Die Risiken sind nicht gering, sie lassen sich bisher nicht voraussagen. Bekannt ist mittlerweile, dass Veränderungen auch in tieferen Schichten des Erdmantels Auswirkungen haben, z. B.:<br></br><br></br> - auf das Grundwasser, dessen Verteilungen und Ströme<br></br><br></br> - auf die Stabilität und Tragfähigkeit der Oberfläche.</p> <p>Alleine diese Auswirkungen können u.a. zu Erdabsenkungen oder Grundwasserverunreinigungen auch im Umland führen. In Verbindung mit anderen Ereignissen, wie dem Klimawandel, Starkregen oder seismischen Aktivitäten sind auch katastrophale Ereignisse nicht gänzlich auszuschliessen.</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4822560)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Stoersender antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823092" data-cid="4823092"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 253.77); color:oklch(35% 0.15 253.77);"> <span>JS</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jörg Schubert</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823092'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T10:30:53+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">10:30 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Stoersender:</span> <p>Na ja, Salzkavernen in hunderten von Metern Tiefe dürften schon recht sicher gestaltbar sein.</p> <p>Das durch Bergbau unterirdisch völlig zerlöcherte Ruhrgebiet existiert ja auch noch...</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823092)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jörg Schubert antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> </ul> </li> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium " id="bb_message_4822554" data-cid="4822554"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 253.77); color:oklch(35% 0.15 253.77);"> <span>JS</span> </div> </a> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jörg Schubert</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4822554'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-25T16:20:15+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">25.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">16:20 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <p>Da hätte ich gerne mal eine Energiebilanz. Beim Verdichten auf 300 Bar entsteht eine Menge Wärme. Was geschieht damit? Verschwindet diese in der Erdkruste? Oder wird schon vor dem Einspeichern gekühlt?</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4822554)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jörg Schubert antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4822754" data-cid="4822754"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku70422/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 121.80); color:oklch(35% 0.15 121.80);"> <span>T</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku70422/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">thomys</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4822754'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-25T22:23:09+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">25.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">22:23 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Jörg Schubert:</span> <p>Es entsteht keine Wärme. Der Joule-Thomson-Koeffizient von Wasserstoff ist negativ.<br></br><br></br> Das Problem ist der schlechte Wirkungsgrad.<br></br><br></br> Ca. 40 % bei der Elektrolyse, ca. 40 % bei der Brennstoffzelle, Verdichten auf 300 bar, aufwendige Reinigung, um die Brennstoffzellen nicht zu beschädigen.<br></br><br></br> Der Gesamtwirkungsgrad wird bei 10 % liegen, d.h. für 200 TWh Speicher muss man 2000 TWh regenerativ produzieren.</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4822754)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">thomys antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823069" data-cid="4823069"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 253.77); color:oklch(35% 0.15 253.77);"> <span>JS</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jörg Schubert</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823069'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T10:13:57+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">10:13 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@thomys:</span> <p>Wo haben Sie denn die 40%-Wirkungsgrade her? Das galt vielleicht 1970. Heute ist beides deutlich über 60%. Ein neues Elektrolyseverfahren der australischen Firma Hysata soll sogar 98% erreichen. Ob das realistisch ist, werden wir sehen...</p> <p>Gesamtwirkungsgrade von 40-50% dürften machbar sein. Das wäre nicht gut aber ausreichend.</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823069)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jörg Schubert antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823040" data-cid="4823040"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 352.04); color:oklch(35% 0.15 352.04);"> <span>S</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku72394/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">sollndas</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823040'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T09:55:43+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">09:55 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@thomys:</span> <p>"Es entsteht keine Wärme."<br></br><br></br> Quatsch. Die Verdichtung erfolgt weitgehend adiabatisch. Eine isotherme Verdichtung ist technisch nicht machbar (sie müsste unendlich langsam erfolgen).</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823040)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">sollndas antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823039" data-cid="4823039"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 253.77); color:oklch(35% 0.15 253.77);"> <span>JS</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jörg Schubert</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823039'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T09:55:07+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">09:55 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@thomys:</span> <p>"Der Joule-Thomson-Koeffizient von Wasserstoff ist negativ."</p> <p>Das stimmt - unterhalb von 202° Kelvin = -71° Celsius. Bis man da ist, hat man schon eine Menge Wärme abgeführt. Interessant ist das nur, wenn man Wasserstoff verflüssigen will.</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823039)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jörg Schubert antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> </ul> </ul> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4822563" data-cid="4822563"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku101214/"> <figure class="is-flex-shrink-0"> <img class="image is-rounded author-profile is-large" src="https://taz.de/kommune/files/images/profile/192x192/101214.webp"> </img></figure> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku101214/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jeff</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4822563'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-25T16:29:38+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">25.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">16:29 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Jörg Schubert:</span> <p>Es wäre auch interessant mal einfach mit einer Wärmespeicherung in Salzstöcken zu vergleichen. Das ist noch ungefährlicher und könnte unter Umständen im Vergleich zu Wasserstoff-Herstellung und Verdichtung und Extraktion und Reinigung und Neu-Verdichtung und Einspeisung gar nicht mal so viel schlechter sein. Gibt natürlich weniger Förderung, weil kein Wasserstoff drin vorkommt. Und weil der so sauber klingt, sind ja alle heiß drauf. Auf Dinge wie "Energiesparsamkeit" kommt man dann einfach nicht, liegt ja auch nicht nahe...</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4822563)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jeff antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823081" data-cid="4823081"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 253.77); color:oklch(35% 0.15 253.77);"> <span>JS</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jörg Schubert</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823081'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T10:24:53+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">10:24 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Jeff:</span> <p>Wenn man Wärme verlustarm wieder zu Strom machen will, braucht man sehr hohe Temperaturen. Idealerweise sind das mehrere hundert Grad Celsius. Im Salzstock dürfte so etwas schwierig werden.</p> <p>Es gibt aber Konzepte, Sand oder Beton in isolierten Behältern zu erhitzen. Ob man da auf nennenswerte Speicherkapazitäten kommt, bleibt fragwürdig.</p> <p>Wasserstoff ist die einfachste Möglichkeit, große Mengen Energie chemisch zu speichern. Deswegen hat H2 so viel Aufmerksamkeit.<br></br><br></br> <br></br><br></br> Aber klar: Die H2-Lobbyisten versuchen jeden noch so blödsinnigen Anwendungsfall durchzudrücken. Geschäft ist halt Geschäft.</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823081)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jörg Schubert antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4824151" data-cid="4824151"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku101214/"> <figure class="is-flex-shrink-0"> <img class="image is-rounded author-profile is-large" src="https://taz.de/kommune/files/images/profile/192x192/101214.webp"> </img></figure> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku101214/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jeff</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4824151'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-27T09:21:54+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">27.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">09:21 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Jörg Schubert:</span> <p>Naja, von Vorteil ist ja, dass Salzstöcke per Definition recht Wasserarm sind. Und grob kann man von Schmelzpunkten um die 1300°C oder höher ausgehen.</p> <p>Große Mengen Gas unter hohem Druck in mehr oder weniger natürlichen Kavernen zu speichern klingt meiner Meinung nach zu sehr nach Notlösung.</p> <p>Natürliche Hohlräume setzen sich, reißen auf, verschieben sich... Wenn wir es mit "echten Behältern" nicht hinbekommen, warum wollen wir dann immer an die Salzstöcke ran?</p> <p>Die waren auch mal als tolle Atommüll-Endlager im Gespräch. Warum noch mal nicht mehr?<br></br><br></br> Und jetzt wollen wir da hochbrennbares Gas hineinpressen und hoffen, dass es drin bleibt? Super Idee. Aber die H2 Lobby wird sich die Hände reiben.</p> <p>Warum nicht wenigstens einfach "nur" Luft nehmen. Mit dem Druck können wir auch Energie speichern, und zumindest ist die Luft selber nicht explosiv...</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4824151)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jeff antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823107" data-cid="4823107"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 253.77); color:oklch(35% 0.15 253.77);"> <span>JS</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku112663/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Jörg Schubert</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823107'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T10:47:16+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">10:47 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Jörg Schubert:</span> <p>Zu den "blödsinnigen Anwendungsfällen" gehören heute die H2-ready Gastherme und H2 im PKW. Diese als Lösungen zu propagieren grenzt schon an einen Betrugsversuch.</p> <p>Aber wer weiß: Wenn wir billigen Fusionsstrom bekommen oder Solarzellen, die direkt Wasserstoff in nennenswerten Mengen ausspucken, werden die Karten neu gemischt.</p> <p>In der heute absehbaren Zukunft wird es solche Dinge nicht geben. Deswegen kann man damit auch nicht planen.</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823107)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Jörg Schubert antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> <ul class="thread"> <li class="member column pt-0-tablet is-12-tablet mobile-order-1 comment mgt-medium mgl-xlarge " id="bb_message_4823161" data-cid="4823161"> <div class="columns is-mobile"> <div class="column is-1-tablet is-2-mobile is-offset-2 is-flex is-align-items-center mobile-order-1"> <a href="/!ku110146/"> <div class="image is-flex is-rounded author-profile is-align-items-center is-justify-content-center typo-short-text-bold" style="background-color:oklch(97% 0.05 135.15); color:oklch(35% 0.15 135.15);"> <span>S</span> </div> </a> <div class="column thread dotted mgl-small mgt-small"></div> </div> <div class="column is-7-tablet is-10-mobile mgl-large-negative pl-large mobile-order-2"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-space-between is-align-items-center"> <div> <a href="/!ku110146/"> <span class="author typo-short-text-bold">Stoffel</span> </a> </div> <div class="mobile-order-3" x-cloak="" style="position: relative;" x-data="{ showFurtherOptionsDropdown: false }"> <span class="is-clickable is-1 icon small further_options_redhov" @click="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = !showFurtherOptionsDropdown"> </span> <aside x-show="showFurtherOptionsDropdown" @click.away="showFurtherOptionsDropdown = false" style="position: absolute; right: 0; min-width: max-content; z-index: 2;" class="typo-short-text column p-small-medium has-background-background-forms is-overlay"> <div class="is-flex is-justify-content-center is-align-items-center"> <button @click.one="const cleanUrl = location.href.replace(location.hash,''); marOtaz_de.copyToClipboard(cleanUrl+ '#bb_message_4823161'); $($el).text('im Clipboard'); $($el).addClass('cursor-initial')" class="typo-link link is-clickable"> Link kopieren </button> </div></aside> </div> </div> <time datetime="2024-08-26T11:22:52+02:00" class="has-text-text-icon-grey typo-meta-data"> <span class="date">26.08.2024</span>, <span class="mgb-small time">11:22 Uhr</span> </time> <div class="typo-short-text text pt-small message-text-container hyphens break-word"> <span class="has-text-text-icon-grey">@Jörg Schubert:</span> <p>Gestern bei der Radtour wieder gesehen. Trotz starkem Wind standen alle Windkraftanlagen still. Ich meine , jede Art von Speicherung ist effektiver als Stillstand.</p> </div> <ul class="toolbar is-flex is-align-items-center reply-container"> <li class="reply is-flex is-align-items-center" x-on:click="reply($event, 4823161)"> <button class="typo-link icon-link-wrapper mgt-small is-flex is-align-items-center" title="auf diesen Beitrag antworten …"> <span class="icon small reply_redhov "></span> <span class="link icon-link-text">Stoffel antworten</span> </button> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </li> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </li> </ul> <script> function sortCommentsByDateTime(order = 'asc') { const commentsList = document.querySelector(' .comments-container '); // sort first level only const comments = Array.from(commentsList.children).filter(li => li.classList.contains('comment') && !li.closest('ul.thread')); // Sortiere die Kommentare nach dem datetime-Attribut im time-Element comments.sort((a, b) => { const dateA = new Date(a.querySelector('time').getAttribute('datetime')); const dateB = new Date(b.querySelector('time').getAttribute('datetime')); 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