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<h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">Template talk</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">Uralic languages</span></h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang mw-portlet-lang-icon-only" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector-empty" aria-label="This article exist only in this language. 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class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Matryoshka_transparent.png/59px-Matryoshka_transparent.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Matryoshka_transparent.png/78px-Matryoshka_transparent.png 2x" data-file-width="1822" data-file-height="1172"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This template is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Russia/Demographics_and_ethnography_of_Russia_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia/Demographics and ethnography of Russia task force">the demographics and ethnography of Russia task force</a></b>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Võro" data-mw-thread-id="h-Võro-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z"><span id="V.C3.B5ro"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Võro-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z"></span>Võro<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Võro-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Uralic_languages&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Võro"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z-Võro"></span>Placed back to the template South Estonian (Võro), which was removed recently.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z-Võro" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z-Võro"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z-Võro"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-12T09:04:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z"></span>Placed back South Estonian (Võro), which was removed recently by <a href="/wiki/User:Martintg" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Martintg">user:Martintg</a>.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-12T09:04:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-12T09:04:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-12T09:04:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-11T21:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-12T10:18:00.000Z-Võro"></span>Ingrian (Izhorian, isuri) is an independent language both linguistically and politically and can not listed in brackets under the Finnish language. Placed out of brackets.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-12T10:18:00.000Z-Võro" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-12T10:18:00.000Z-Võro"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-12T10:18:00.000Z-Võro"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Miacek-2009-02-12T11:05:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-12T10:18:00.000Z"></span>I agree on Ingrian. However, your constant edit warring with the aim of pushing your personal theory that there are separate Seto, South Estonian or Võro languages is disruptive. Please avoid such actions in the future. --<a href="/wiki/User:Miacek" title="User:Miacek"><strong>Miacek</strong> and his crime-fighting dog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Miacek" title="User talk:Miacek"><strong>woof!</strong></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Miacek-2009-02-12T11:05:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-12T10:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:05, 12 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Miacek-2009-02-12T11:05:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-12T10:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Miacek-2009-02-12T11:05:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-12T10:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-12T12:11:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-12T11:05:00.000Z"></span>Dear Miacek, in the English Wikipedia there are existing the articles "Võro language" and "South Estonian language" though you want to rename them. As far as such articles exist, the templates should reflect the existing articles, not possible renames. Definitely I don't push anything and these languages aren't my personal theory - there are many people, also academic etc. who consider them languages. Regarding Seto, I never thought, that it must linguistically considered a language totally independent from Võro or South Estonian. Of course Seto is linguistically a part of Võro and South Estonian. Regardind edit warring - I don't do it, I just try to defend somehow the articles from very rough changes and moves. I'm trying to defend stability and smooth development of the articles against big sudden changes.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-12T12:11:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-12T11:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:11, 12 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-12T12:11:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-12T11:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-12T12:11:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-12T11:05:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Miacek-2009-02-12T14:45:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-12T12:11:00.000Z"></span>“big sudden changes″ are allowed and may even be necessary when dealing with POV pushers, who disapprove of consensus both in the academic world and here in wiki. Regards, --<a href="/wiki/User:Miacek" title="User:Miacek"><strong>Miacek</strong> and his crime-fighting dog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Miacek" title="User talk:Miacek"><strong>woof!</strong></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Miacek-2009-02-12T14:45:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-12T12:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Miacek-2009-02-12T14:45:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-12T12:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Miacek-2009-02-12T14:45:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-12T12:11:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-13T22:35:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-12T14:45:00.000Z"></span>There will be only <i>South Estonian</i> seen in the template (not word language nor dialect is used). <i>Võro</i> is in brackets which means that it belongs to the South Estonian (language/dialect group). See also article <a href="/wiki/South_Estonian_language" class="mw-redirect" title="South Estonian language">South Estonian</a> and its talk page.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-13T22:35:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-12T14:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-13T22:35:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-12T14:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-13T22:35:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-12T14:45:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martintg-2009-02-14T00:29:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-13T22:35:00.000Z"></span>This is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>. The published literature does not support this subdivision, see this for <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/92/15392-004-A8A48DB6.gif">example</a>. Please show us a published reliable source that indicates this sub-division before reverting. <a href="/wiki/User:Martintg" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Martintg">Martintg</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martintg" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Martintg">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Martintg-2009-02-14T00:29:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-13T22:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martintg-2009-02-14T00:29:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-13T22:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martintg-2009-02-14T00:29:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-13T22:35:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-14T03:01:00.000Z-Martintg-2009-02-14T00:29:00.000Z"></span>There is different literature, some do support: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.helsinki.fi/~tasalmin/fu.html">Uralic languages (Salminen 2003)</a>.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-14T03:01:00.000Z-Martintg-2009-02-14T00:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:01, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-14T03:01:00.000Z-Martintg-2009-02-14T00:29:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-14T03:01:00.000Z-Martintg-2009-02-14T00:29:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martintg-2009-02-16T05:17:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-14T03:01:00.000Z"></span>I don't think this would be acceptable to Wikipedia due to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources" title="Wikipedia:Verifiability">Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources</a>. Anyone can self-publish. It needs to be published in print by a third party, preferably in a refereed journal or book. <a href="/wiki/User:Martintg" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Martintg">Martintg</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martintg" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Martintg">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Martintg-2009-02-16T05:17:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-14T03:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martintg-2009-02-16T05:17:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-14T03:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martintg-2009-02-16T05:17:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-14T03:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tropylium-2009-02-16T14:00:00.000Z-Martintg-2009-02-16T05:17:00.000Z"></span>Tapani Salminen is a long-estabilish'd scholar of Uralistics. You can find the same position eg. here <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.helsinki.fi/~tasalmin/chris.html">[1]</a>, which is indeed an excerpt from a refereed book. --<a href="/wiki/User:Tropylium" title="User:Tropylium"><span class="IPA">Trɔpʏliʊm</span></a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tropylium" title="User talk:Tropylium">blah</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Tropylium-2009-02-16T14:00:00.000Z-Martintg-2009-02-16T05:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tropylium-2009-02-16T14:00:00.000Z-Martintg-2009-02-16T05:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tropylium-2009-02-16T14:00:00.000Z-Martintg-2009-02-16T05:17:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z-Tropylium-2009-02-16T14:00:00.000Z"></span>Actually, it doesn't. In Salminen's language classification -- instead of "Võro language", there's "Võro-Seto". If you're going to rely on his classification, you can't wantonly split that up into "Võro". <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Digwuren&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Digwuren (page does not exist)">Διγουρεν</a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Digwuren" title="User talk:Digwuren">Εμπρος!</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z-Tropylium-2009-02-16T14:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:05, 16 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z-Tropylium-2009-02-16T14:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z-Tropylium-2009-02-16T14:00:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-16T20:51:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z"></span>Salminen: "<b>Võro-Seto (or simply Võro)</b> (in Estonian võru keel): Northern Europe: Estonia and northwestern Russia. Spoken in the southeastern corner of Estonia and in Pechory County in the west of Pskov Province in the Russian Federation by approximately 50,000 speakers of all ages, but younger people are shifting to the majority language. Definitely endangered." (in <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.helsinki.fi/~tasalmin/chris.html">[2]</a>).--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-16T20:51:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-16T20:51:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-16T20:51:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AUralic_languages&diff=271116283&oldid=271113409"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-16T23:08:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z"></span>Naming the mother tongue of people a <i>crap</i> with cutting it out</a>. That is not a fair aspiration to neutrality any more. There must be some personal hate or fear against this language behind acting like that.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-16T23:08:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-16T23:08:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-16T23:08:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-16T14:05:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:02:00.000Z-Võro"></span>A new provocative deletion again by <a href="/wiki/User:Miacek" title="User:Miacek">User:Miacek</a>: <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Uralic_languages&action=history">Why Võru and not...</a>--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:02:00.000Z-Võro" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:02, 20 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:02:00.000Z-Võro"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:02:00.000Z-Võro"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:45:00.000Z-Võro"></span>Võro is a language by many sources and institutions (see above and talk pages of the articles <a href="/wiki/V%C3%B5ro_language" title="Võro language">Võro language</a> and <a href="/wiki/South_Estonian_language" class="mw-redirect" title="South Estonian language">South Estonian language</a>), though on this template it's in the brackets after Estonian like a variety of Estonian as a kind of compromise. Let it be, don't delete or revert it any more.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:45:00.000Z-Võro" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:45:00.000Z-Võro"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:45:00.000Z-Võro"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Digwuren-2009-02-21T13:55:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:45:00.000Z"></span>The whole scope and organisation of the Võro-related concepts is still under heavy discussion on Wikipedia, and more than "a little" controversial. Putting the link in the template now, before there's even a semblance of consensus in this discussion, would be premature. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Digwuren&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Digwuren (page does not exist)">Διγουρεν</a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Digwuren" title="User talk:Digwuren">Εμπρος!</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Digwuren-2009-02-21T13:55:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:55, 21 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Digwuren-2009-02-21T13:55:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Digwuren-2009-02-21T13:55:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-20T14:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-22T00:50:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-21T13:55:00.000Z"></span>Nobody put the link. It existed and was restored to the last edit done by <a href="/wiki/User:GerardM" title="User:GerardM">GerardM</a> after deleting by a user.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-22T00:50:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-21T13:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:50, 22 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-22T00:50:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-21T13:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-22T00:50:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-02-21T13:55:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Miacek-2009-02-23T10:39:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-22T00:50:00.000Z"></span>Perhaps you've forgotten it, but <i>you</i> added it in <a href="/wiki/2006" title="2006">2006</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Uralic_languages&diff=next&oldid=74911012">[3]</a>. Such unilateral changes can be compared with <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Uralic_languages&diff=106831578&oldid=106824658">changes by User:Bonaparte</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Miacek" title="User:Miacek"><strong>Miacek</strong> and his crime-fighting dog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Miacek" title="User talk:Miacek"><strong>woof!</strong></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Miacek-2009-02-23T10:39:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-22T00:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:39, 23 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Miacek-2009-02-23T10:39:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-22T00:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Miacek-2009-02-23T10:39:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-22T00:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-25T11:41:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-23T10:39:00.000Z"></span>Yes, of course I remember that I wrote the article about <a href="/wiki/V%C3%B5ro_language" title="Võro language">Võro language</a> years ago and added the corresponding link to the template. I don't think it can be compared with the edits you referred. There are provided in the discussion here and on the talk pages of the articles <a href="/wiki/V%C3%B5ro_language" title="Võro language">Võro language</a> and <a href="/wiki/South_Estonian_language" class="mw-redirect" title="South Estonian language">South Estonian language</a> enough evidence to have on this template links at least to the following languages or varieties of Estonia:</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Estonian" class="mw-disambig" title="Estonian">Estonian</a>, <a href="/wiki/South_Estonian_language" class="mw-redirect" title="South Estonian language">South Estonian</a> (<a href="/wiki/V%C3%B5ro" class="mw-disambig" title="Võro">Võro</a>).</dd> <dd>However, as a compromise there could be accepted at least the last edit done by <a href="/wiki/User:GerardM" title="User:GerardM">GerardM</a> representing Võro in the brackets after Estonian (as some languages/varieties are in the brackets after Finnish):</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Estonian" class="mw-disambig" title="Estonian">Estonian</a> (<a href="/wiki/V%C3%B5ro" class="mw-disambig" title="Võro">Võro</a>). Please do not delete it from the template any more.--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-25T11:41:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-23T10:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-25T11:41:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-23T10:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-25T11:41:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-23T10:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Miacek-2009-02-25T12:06:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-25T11:41:00.000Z"></span>Well, “as a compromise”, would you like to have <a href="/wiki/Kirderannikumurre" class="mw-redirect" title="Kirderannikumurre">Kirderannikumurre</a> included that I created some days ago, or <a href="/w/index.php?title=Iisaku_dialect&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Iisaku dialect (page does not exist)">Iisaku dialect</a>, that I'm about to create? --<a href="/wiki/User:Miacek" title="User:Miacek"><strong>Miacek</strong> and his crime-fighting dog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Miacek" title="User talk:Miacek"><strong>woof!</strong></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Miacek-2009-02-25T12:06:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-25T11:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Miacek-2009-02-25T12:06:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-25T11:41:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Miacek-2009-02-25T12:06:00.000Z-Võrok-2009-02-25T11:41:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Võrok-2009-02-25T20:19:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-25T12:06:00.000Z"></span>There is no reason to speak here about <a href="/wiki/Kirderannikumurre" class="mw-redirect" title="Kirderannikumurre">Kirderannikumurre</a>. (Standard) <a href="/wiki/Estonian" class="mw-disambig" title="Estonian">Estonian</a>, <a href="/wiki/South_Estonian_language" class="mw-redirect" title="South Estonian language">South Estonian</a> and <a href="/wiki/V%C3%B5ro_language" title="Võro language">Võro</a> are the only varieties of Estonia that have been described as individual languages in sources. For the same reason, maybe also <a href="/wiki/Savonian_dialects" title="Savonian dialects">Savonian dialects</a> should not be included here, in principle. (However, I do not call to delete them.)--<a href="/wiki/User:V%C3%B5rok" title="User:Võrok">Võrok</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:V%C3%B5rok" title="User talk:Võrok">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Võrok-2009-02-25T20:19:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-25T12:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:19, 25 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Võrok-2009-02-25T20:19:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-25T12:06:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Võrok-2009-02-25T20:19:00.000Z-Miacek-2009-02-25T12:06:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Miscellanea_is_not_a_language_group" data-mw-thread-id="h-Miscellanea_is_not_a_language_group-2012-02-27T09:00:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Miscellanea_is_not_a_language_group-2012-02-27T09:00:00.000Z"></span>Miscellanea is not a language group<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Miscellanea_is_not_a_language_group-2012-02-27T09:00:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Uralic_languages&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Miscellanea is not a language group"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tropylium-2012-02-27T09:00:00.000Z-Miscellanea_is_not_a_language_group"></span>Muromian, Mari, Moksha etc are Fenno-Volgaic languages (now listed under "Miscellanea"). --Numulunj pilgae 03:50, 26 February 2012 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:Numulunj_pilgae" title="User:Numulunj pilgae">Numulunj pilgae</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Numulunj_pilgae" title="User talk:Numulunj pilgae">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Numulunj_pilgae" title="Special:Contributions/Numulunj pilgae">contribs</a>) </span></small> </p> <dl><dd>I imagine "Miscellanea" not being a genetic group should be obvious to everyone. Listing them as "Finno-Volgaic" would be somewhat misleading however, as that group should also include Finnic and Samic, and its validity is somewhat dubious.</dd> <dd>Not explicitly grouping Erzya and Moksha as Mordvinic might be an issue though… --<a href="/wiki/User:Tropylium" title="User:Tropylium"><span class="IPA">Trɔpʏliʊm</span></a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tropylium" title="User talk:Tropylium">blah</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-Tropylium-2012-02-27T09:00:00.000Z-Miscellanea_is_not_a_language_group" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tropylium-2012-02-27T09:00:00.000Z-Miscellanea_is_not_a_language_group"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tropylium-2012-02-27T09:00:00.000Z-Miscellanea_is_not_a_language_group"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Can_Livonian_be_classified_as_extinct?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Can_Livonian_be_classified_as_extinct?-2014-06-22T18:45:00.000Z"><span id="Can_Livonian_be_classified_as_extinct.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Can_Livonian_be_classified_as_extinct?-2014-06-22T18:45:00.000Z"></span>Can Livonian be classified as extinct?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Can_Livonian_be_classified_as_extinct?-2014-06-22T18:45:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Uralic_languages&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Can Livonian be classified as extinct?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-McLennonSon-2014-06-22T18:45:00.000Z-Can_Livonian_be_classified_as_extinct?"></span>Seeing as it's having its revival in Estonian and Finnish universities by teaching the language there could it really be extinct? </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:McLennonSon" title="User:McLennonSon">McLennonSon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:McLennonSon" title="User talk:McLennonSon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Uralic_languages#c-McLennonSon-2014-06-22T18:45:00.000Z-Can_Livonian_be_classified_as_extinct?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-McLennonSon-2014-06-22T18:45:00.000Z-Can_Livonian_be_classified_as_extinct?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-McLennonSon-2014-06-22T18:45:00.000Z-Can_Livonian_be_classified_as_extinct?"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Uralic_languages&oldid=1238180074">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Uralic_languages&oldid=1238180074</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Template-Class_language_articles" title="Category:Template-Class language articles">Template-Class language articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-importance_language_articles" title="Category:NA-importance language articles">NA-importance language articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Languages_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Languages articles">WikiProject Languages articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Template-Class_Russia_articles" title="Category:Template-Class Russia articles">Template-Class Russia articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-importance_Russia_articles" title="Category:NA-importance Russia articles">NA-importance Russia articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-importance_Template-Class_Russia_articles" title="Category:NA-importance Template-Class Russia articles">NA-importance Template-Class Russia articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Template-Class_Russia_(language_and_literature)_articles" title="Category:Template-Class Russia (language and literature) articles">Template-Class Russia (language and literature) articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Language_and_literature_of_Russia_task_force_articles" title="Category:Language and literature of Russia task force articles">Language and literature of Russia task force articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Template-Class_Russia_(demographics_and_ethnography)_articles" title="Category:Template-Class Russia (demographics and ethnography) articles">Template-Class Russia (demographics and ethnography) articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Demographics_and_ethnography_of_Russia_task_force_articles" title="Category:Demographics and ethnography of Russia task force articles">Demographics and ethnography of Russia task force articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Russia_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Russia articles">WikiProject Russia articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 2 August 2024, at 14:42<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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