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<a class="mw-jump-link" href="#searchInput">Jump to search</a> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><div id="toc" class="toc" role="navigation" aria-labelledby="mw-toc-heading"><input type="checkbox" role="button" id="toctogglecheckbox" class="toctogglecheckbox" style="display:none" /><div class="toctitle" lang="en" dir="ltr"><h2 id="mw-toc-heading">Contents</h2><label class="toctogglelabel" for="toctogglecheckbox"></label></div> <ul> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1"><a href="#Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991">1 Files in Category:Photographs by Studio Harcourt 1954 to 1991</a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-2"><a href="#Discussion">1.1 Discussion</a></li> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-3"><a href="#The_major_historical_stages_of_authorship_rights_in_France">1.2 The major historical stages of authorship rights in France</a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-3 tocsection-4"><a href="#From_August_26,_1789_to_March_11,_1958">1.2.1 From August 26, 1789 to March 11, 1958</a></li> <li class="toclevel-3 tocsection-5"><a href="#From_March_11,_1958_to_July_2,_1992">1.2.2 From March 11, 1958 to July 2, 1992</a></li> <li class="toclevel-3 tocsection-6"><a href="#Since_July_3,_1992">1.2.3 Since July 3, 1992</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991" data-mw-thread-id="h-Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991-20241028141400">Files in <a href="/wiki/Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt" title="Category:Photographs by Studio Harcourt">Category:Photographs by Studio Harcourt</a> 1954 to 1991</h3>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Files in Category:Photographs by Studio Harcourt 1954 to 1991">edit</a>]</div> These are 1954 to 1991 photos of the "old" Studio Harcourt, not uploaded by <a href="/wiki/User:Studio_Harcourt" title="User:Studio Harcourt">User:Studio Harcourt</a>, but by several other users. They are not in the public domain in either France or the US, and the suppposed OTRS/VRT "permission" by Ms Brouard from the "new" studio Harcourt has no legal binding for these. As <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">User:Günther Frager</a> put it in the previous DR: "There is evidence that the patrimonial rights were transferred to the French government when they acquired the negatives and there is no explicit evidence that the French government surrendered such patrimonial rights. The VRT ticket that is mentioned in discussions is from an employee of a company established after the transfer of patrimonial rights and therefore lacks any legal binding like normal VRT tickets where the copyright holders make a statement about their property." --<a href="/wiki/User:Rosenzweig" title="User:Rosenzweig">Rosenzweig</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosenzweig" title="User talk:Rosenzweig">τ</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Rosenzweig-20241028141400-Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r950053299">.mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#F0F2F5;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#CCFFCC;color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}</style> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="background: {{{bg}}}; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center;"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">List of files</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/File:Christian-Jaque-1954-Harcourt.png" title="File:Christian-Jaque-1954-Harcourt.png">File:Christian-Jaque-1954-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Jean_Yanne_1954_Studio_Harcourt.jpg" title="File:Jean Yanne 1954 Studio Harcourt.jpg">File:Jean Yanne 1954 Studio Harcourt.jpg</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:JeanRochefort-1954-Harcourt.png" title="File:JeanRochefort-1954-Harcourt.png">File:JeanRochefort-1954-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:MichelineDax-1954-Harcourt.jpg" title="File:MichelineDax-1954-Harcourt.jpg">File:MichelineDax-1954-Harcourt.jpg</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:RobertManuel-1954-Harcourt.png" title="File:RobertManuel-1954-Harcourt.png">File:RobertManuel-1954-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:RobertRocca-Harcourt-1954.png" title="File:RobertRocca-Harcourt-1954.png">File:RobertRocca-Harcourt-1954.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:CecileAubry-1955-Harcourt.png" title="File:CecileAubry-1955-Harcourt.png">File:CecileAubry-1955-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:MarinaVlady-1955-Harcourt.png" title="File:MarinaVlady-1955-Harcourt.png">File:MarinaVlady-1955-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:PascalMazzotti-1955-Harcourt.png" title="File:PascalMazzotti-1955-Harcourt.png">File:PascalMazzotti-1955-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:PierreDudan-1955-Harcourt.png" title="File:PierreDudan-1955-Harcourt.png">File:PierreDudan-1955-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Yvette_Giraud_par_Le_Studio_Harcourt_en_1955.jpg" title="File:Yvette Giraud par Le Studio Harcourt en 1955.jpg">File:Yvette Giraud par Le Studio Harcourt en 1955.jpg</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:GeorgesGeret-1956-Harcourt.png" title="File:GeorgesGeret-1956-Harcourt.png">File:GeorgesGeret-1956-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><s><a href="/wiki/File:Ingrid_Bergman_%26_Mel_Ferrer_dans_Elena_et_les_Hommes.jpg" title="File:Ingrid Bergman & Mel Ferrer dans Elena et les Hommes.jpg">File:Ingrid Bergman & Mel Ferrer dans Elena et les Hommes.jpg</a></s> 1956. Not a Harcourt photo</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Bergman_Harcourt_1957.jpg" title="File:Bergman Harcourt 1957.jpg">File:Bergman Harcourt 1957.jpg</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Dietrich_Harcourt_1959.jpg" title="File:Dietrich Harcourt 1959.jpg">File:Dietrich Harcourt 1959.jpg</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:GeorgesUlmer-1959-Harcourt.png" title="File:GeorgesUlmer-1959-Harcourt.png">File:GeorgesUlmer-1959-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:JPRambal-1959-Harcourt.png" title="File:JPRambal-1959-Harcourt.png">File:JPRambal-1959-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Clara_Malraux.jpg" title="File:Clara Malraux.jpg">File:Clara Malraux.jpg</a> 1960</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:GeorgesDelerue-1961-Harcourt.png" title="File:GeorgesDelerue-1961-Harcourt.png">File:GeorgesDelerue-1961-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:JBalutin-1961-Harcourt.png" title="File:JBalutin-1961-Harcourt.png">File:JBalutin-1961-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Ren%C3%A9_de_Chambrun.jpg" title="File:René de Chambrun.jpg">File:René de Chambrun.jpg</a> 1961</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Caurat-1962-Harcourt.png" title="File:Caurat-1962-Harcourt.png">File:Caurat-1962-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Christiane_Minazzoli-1962-Harcourt.jpg" title="File:Christiane Minazzoli-1962-Harcourt.jpg">File:Christiane Minazzoli-1962-Harcourt.jpg</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Victor_Lanoux,_1962,_Studio_Harcourt.jpg" title="File:Victor Lanoux, 1962, Studio Harcourt.jpg">File:Victor Lanoux, 1962, Studio Harcourt.jpg</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:JeanLefebvre-1963-Harcourt.png" title="File:JeanLefebvre-1963-Harcourt.png">File:JeanLefebvre-1963-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:JeanPierreMarielle-1963-Harcourt.png" title="File:JeanPierreMarielle-1963-Harcourt.png">File:JeanPierreMarielle-1963-Harcourt.png</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Ren%C3%A9_de_Castries.jpg" title="File:René de Castries.jpg">File:René de Castries.jpg</a> 1964</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Ren%C3%A9_de_La_Croix_de_Castries_(cropped).jpg" title="File:René de La Croix de Castries (cropped).jpg">File:René de La Croix de Castries (cropped).jpg</a> 1964</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:G%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral_Alain_de_Boissieu,_Compagnon_de_la_Lib%C3%A9ration_et_gendre_du_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral_de_Gaulle,_grand_chancelier_de_la_L%C3%A9gion_d%27honneur.jpg" title="File:Général Alain de Boissieu, Compagnon de la Libération et gendre du général de Gaulle, grand chancelier de la Légion d'honneur.jpg">File:Général Alain de Boissieu, Compagnon de la Libération et gendre du général de Gaulle, grand chancelier de la Légion d'honneur.jpg</a> 1965</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Aymar_Achille-Fould.jpg" title="File:Aymar Achille-Fould.jpg">File:Aymar Achille-Fould.jpg</a> 1966</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Charles_de_Chambrun,_secr%C3%A9taire_d%27%C3%89tat.jpg" title="File:Charles de Chambrun, secrétaire d'État.jpg">File:Charles de Chambrun, secrétaire d'État.jpg</a> 1966</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Michel_Galabru,_1966,_Studio_Harcourt.jpg" title="File:Michel Galabru, 1966, Studio Harcourt.jpg">File:Michel Galabru, 1966, Studio Harcourt.jpg</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Albert_Cohen_BNF_(cropped).jpg" title="File:Albert Cohen BNF (cropped).jpg">File:Albert Cohen BNF (cropped).jpg</a> 1968</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Albert_Cohen_BNF_(cropped2).jpg" title="File:Albert Cohen BNF (cropped2).jpg">File:Albert Cohen BNF (cropped2).jpg</a> 1968</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Albert_Cohen_BNF.jpg" title="File:Albert Cohen BNF.jpg">File:Albert Cohen BNF.jpg</a> 1968</li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Philippine_Leroy-Beaulieu.jpg" title="File:Philippine Leroy-Beaulieu.jpg">File:Philippine Leroy-Beaulieu.jpg</a> 1988</li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Discussion" data-mw-thread-id="h-Discussion-Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991-20241028143300">Discussion</h4>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Discussion">edit</a>]</div> <ul><li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Symbol_neutral_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_neutral_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Symbol_neutral_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_neutral_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Symbol_neutral_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_neutral_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Neutral</bdi> I won't object to deletion if there is a consensus for that. <a href="/wiki/User:Yann" title="User:Yann">Yann</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Yann" title="User talk:Yann">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Yann-20241028143300-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Symbol_delete_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_delete_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Symbol_delete_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_delete_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Symbol_delete_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_delete_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Delete</bdi> Images still protected by copyright in its country of origin. My full rationale is already included in the nomination. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241030163200-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> <ul><li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi>. According to several facts, all data and precise details allready given in those debates that demonstrate that Studio Harcourt liberate these rights (tocket VTR) : <a class="external free" href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Tisourcier" title="User:Tisourcier">Tisourcier</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tisourcier" title="User talk:Tisourcier">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Tisourcier-20241104114100-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi>. These files have been liberated by Studio Harcourt (see VTR ticket). --<a href="/wiki/User:GPZ_Anonymous" title="User:GPZ Anonymous">gpesenti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GPZ_Anonymous" title="User talk:GPZ Anonymous">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-GPZ_Anonymous-20241104120600-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi> «suppposed OTRS/VRT "permission" by Ms Brouard from the "new" studio Harcourt has no legal binding for these» Sur quoi @<a href="/wiki/User:Rosenzweig" title="User:Rosenzweig">Rosenzweig</a>: s'appuie-t-il pour affirmer cela ? Est ce que Commons a annulé ce ticket VRT/OTRS ? Je n'ai pas vu dans les discussions précédentes, d'action annulant ces tickets. Est ce qu'un agent VRT pourrait confirmer ou infirmer les dire de Rosenzweig ? Les discussions à ce sujet sur <a href="/wiki/Commons:Volunteer_Response_Team/Noticeboard" title="Commons:Volunteer Response Team/Noticeboard">le bulletin VRT</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard#An_accurate_quotation_from_the_email_in_the_VRT_system?_-_(ticket:2020112910005534)">[1]</a> sont loin d’être aussi catégoriques, et portent surtout sur des nuances dans la traduction de la permission. <a href="/wiki/User:Kirtap" title="User:Kirtap">Kirtap</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kirtap" title="User talk:Kirtap">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Kirtap-20241104142800-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi> An obvious case of copyfraud. --<a href="/wiki/User:Guise" title="User:Guise">Guise</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Guise" title="User talk:Guise">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Guise-20241104143600-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi> ticket VRT valide, non contesté, non contestable. Pratique téméraire que cette enième procédure qui une nouvelle fois désorganise Commons pour une argumentation personnelle (erronée qui plus est). --<a href="/wiki/User:Madelgarius" title="User:Madelgarius">Madelgarius</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Madelgarius" title="User talk:Madelgarius">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Madelgarius-20241104152600-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi> Again the French museum and government are taken in flagrant case of Copyfraud --<a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">GdGourou</a> - °o° - <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gdgourou" title="User talk:Gdgourou">Talk to me</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Gdgourou-20241104161600-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi> Aucune raison que le ticket VRT parfaitement valide soit remis une fois de plus en question. – <a href="/wiki/User:Jilucorg" title="User:Jilucorg">Jilucorg</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jilucorg" title="User talk:Jilucorg">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Jilucorg-20241104162100-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi> Aucune raison pour que le ticket VRT soit contesté. Quel est l'objet non avouable de cet acharnement?--<a href="/wiki/User:Adri08" title="User:Adri08">Adri08</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adri08" title="User talk:Adri08">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Adri08-20241104173100-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:31, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> <ul><li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/15px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/23px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/30px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/> <bdi>Comment</bdi> It was already established (see <a href="/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt" title="Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Photographs by Studio Harcourt">Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Photographs by Studio Harcourt</a> and linked VPC discussions) that:</li></ul> <dl><dd><ol><li>There are two Harcourt enterprises, the "old" one established in 1980 and the "new" one established in 1992 after the old one was liquidated.</li> <li>The "new" Harcourt Studio only has some some trademarks that they bought in an auction.</li> <li>The French government bought the "old" Harcourt Studio its 1934-1979 collection in 1989, and the 1980-1991 collection during the judicial liquidation.</li> <li>The French government has (or had at least until 2003) the patrimonial rights of the 1934-1991 collection.</li></ol> <dl><dd>All this information was taken from official documents, perhaps the most relevant is the court case <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://justice.pappers.fr/decision/86f629f7e3c400a9c8e315c4a94c66af">Tribunal de grande instance de Paris, 4 février 2003, 2001/17786</a>. The VRT contains a forwarded email between a Commons user and the "new" Harcourt Studio and it contains claims about the patrimonial rights of the French government. It is not what we expect from a VRT ticket: a person or company making a formal statement about their own intellectual property. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241104182000-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi> I see no reason to challenge for the nth time the validity of the VTR ticket. This all seems to boil down to unfamiliarity with the French copyright system and the shady practices of the French institute for national museums. --<a href="/wiki/User:Alecto_Chardon" title="User:Alecto Chardon">Alecto Chardon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alecto_Chardon" title="User talk:Alecto Chardon">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Alecto_Chardon-20241104190400-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/15px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/23px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/30px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/> <bdi>Comment</bdi> there appears to me to have been some unacknowledged canvassing with a large number of French-speaking users appearing in a small amount of time to vote "keep," all on the same rationale, and none of them directly addressing the central issue here: why would patrimonial rights to these photos belong to the present-day Harcourt, as against belonging to the French government? I would recommend to the closing admin to ignore the sheer number of people weighing in, given that they were presumably canvassed. - <a href="/wiki/User:Jmabel" title="User:Jmabel">Jmabel</a> ! <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jmabel" title="User talk:Jmabel">talk</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Jmabel-20241104204100-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The canvassing might be attribuited to <a class="external text" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikip%C3%A9dia:Le_Bistro/4_novembre_2024&diff=prev&oldid=220015151">this post</a> published in frwiki noticeboard this afternoon and the targeted pings to participate <a class="external autonumber" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discussion_utilisateur:Adri08&diff=prev&oldid=220016024">[2]</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discussion_utilisateur:Madelgarius&diff=prev&oldid=220016077">[3]</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discussion_utilisateur:Kirtap&diff=prev&oldid=220016259">[4]</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discussion_utilisatrice:Alecto_Chardon&diff=prev&oldid=220016151">[5]</a>, etc. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241104233000-Jmabel-20241104204100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><ul><li>@<a href="/wiki/User:Tisourcier" title="User:Tisourcier">Tisourcier</a>: you certainly should have indicated on this thread that you had made that post. This certainly violated the principles laid down at <a href="/wiki/Commons:Canvassing" title="Commons:Canvassing">Commons:Canvassing</a> (not only failure to mention it here, but the lack of neutrality of wording in the canvassing post.) Yes I'm aware that <a href="/wiki/Commons:Canvassing" title="Commons:Canvassing">Commons:Canvassing</a> is not policy, but it is definitely the generally accepted etiquette on Commons, and rarely violated. - <a href="/wiki/User:Jmabel" title="User:Jmabel">Jmabel</a> ! <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jmabel" title="User talk:Jmabel">talk</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Jmabel-20241105195800-Günther_Frager-20241104233000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul></dd> <dd>Dear Günther Frager and Jmabel, when the RMN apply a copyright on a reproduction of Mona Lisa... is the French government right? So please don't say that French-speaking users are unaware of the case. Don't consider you as above the law or omniscient in French affairs. In fact, it's due to such behavior like yours that so many French-speaking users don't contribute anymore on Commons (like me). Sincerely --<a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">GdGourou</a> - °o° - <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gdgourou" title="User talk:Gdgourou">Talk to me</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Gdgourou-20241105081700-Günther_Frager-20241104233000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">Gdgourou</a>: the RMN website host images of artworks and there are two different things subject to intellectual property: the artwork itself and the photo of the artwork. Your argument is that RMN assigns copyright to photos of artworks while the discussion in this DR is about the copyright of the artworks. Whether a photo of an artwork is copyrightable depends on the artwork and the jurisdiction. In most jurisdictions photos of 3D artworks are copyrightable. If you try to upload <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/23-501564-2C6NU0AQJ31UV.html">this photo</a> of a sculpture by Giuseppe Maria Mazza (1653-1741), it will be deleted as it has no free license. Photos of 2D artworks are not copyrighted in many jurisdictions. In France it is not conclusive, you can check <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisatrice:Jastrow/PD-art" class="extiw" title="fr:Utilisatrice:Jastrow/PD-art">fr:Utilisatrice:Jastrow/PD-art</a> for a list of relevant cases. Regardless of the legal status in France, it is irrelevant for this DR discussion as the position of Commons is to allow photos of 2D works that are in the public domain, see <a href="/wiki/Commons:Reuse_of_PD-Art_photographs" title="Commons:Reuse of PD-Art photographs">Commons:Reuse of PD-Art photographs</a>. </dd> <dd>If you want to check if an artwork hosted in RMN is in the public domain, you should not check the "CREDIT" entry that informs about the photo of the artwork, but the "DROTIS D'AUTEUR" entry. The works in the French public domain don't have the "DROTIS D'AUTEUR" entry while the works not in the public domain do have it. Check any of the Mona Lisa photos <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/24-501734-2C6NU0ASUEQC7.html">[6]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/18-543404-2C6NU0ACB9ZS8.html">[7]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/22-515203-2C6NU0AF0P2V6.html">[8]</a>, or the paintings by Paul Cézanne (1839-1906) <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/05-510058-2C6NU078USAI.html">[9]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/16-529093-2C6NU0A4YPYPY.html">[10]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/05-521645-2C6NU0757SAX.html">[11]</a>, they only have the "CREDIT" entry. The paintings by Pablo Picasso (1881-1973) <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/20-522775-2C6NU0AI15CGR.html">[12]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/20-522673-2C6NU0AI13OZQ.html">[13]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/47-000058-02-2C6NU007F5TR.html">[14]</a> have the "DROTIS D'AUTEUR" entry that claims «(C) Succession Picasso - Gestion droits d'auteur»; similarly the paintings by Maurice Utrillo (1983-1955) <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/13-537037-2C6NU0D32E8H.html">[15]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/09-547490-2C6NU03REC41.html">[16]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/16-508887-2C6NU0A7E3RBM.html">[17]</a> have «(C) ADAGP, Paris» in their "DROTIS D'AUTEUR" entry. </dd> <dd>The same can be applied when the artworks are photographs. The photos by Amélie Galup (1856-1943) <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/07-508718-2C6NU0CIYXF4.html">[18]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/07-520531-2C6NU0CGN2XZ.html">[19]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/07-535294-2C6NU0JBRA05.html">[20]</a> are in the public domain and lack the "DROTIS D'AUTEUR"; the photos by Sam Lévin (1904-1992) <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/08-543035-2C6NU0T2B5WO.html">[21]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/08-543212-2C6NU0T2EHXI.html">[22]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/22-535157-2C6NU0AYSXRY0.html">[23]</a> have «(C) RMN - Gestion droit d'auteur Sam Lévin» in their "DROTIS D'AUTEUR" entry. In the case of the Harcourt Studio photos <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://photo.rmn.fr/archive/08-538369-2C6NU0TDJVOI.html">[24]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/08-538470-2C6NU0TDPP88.html">[25]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/08-539399-2C6NU0T502GK.html">[26]</a> the claim is «Droit État». <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241105184600-Gdgourou-20241105081700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>As you mentioned the "dépot de bilan" as a reason for the French government to overtake the copyright, I checked and you're totally wrong. In fact according to the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000044804636/2024-10-07">Article L132-15</a> of the , the copyright of an editor (because, here, the studio act as an editor) are given back to the author itself so each photographs. In that case if the photograph is dead since more than 70 years, the picture became public domain, else it's protecd.... but as you could check the company had resumed its activity and in that case the buyer recovered the right as mentioned in the contract between editor and author. So please don't use false argument. --<a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">GdGourou</a> - °o° - <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gdgourou" title="User talk:Gdgourou">Talk to me</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Gdgourou-20241105091700-Günther_Frager-20241104233000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Also in the court decision you provided, the sentence "Studio HARCOURT, dont les droits appartiennent à l'Etat qui en a autorisé la reproduction," is not legal and it's means only that the government protect the rights as they are less than 70 years after the author's death... In any way the goverment could handle the copyright from an author if it's not himself. --<a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">GdGourou</a> - °o° - <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gdgourou" title="User talk:Gdgourou">Talk to me</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Gdgourou-20241105100200-Günther_Frager-20241104233000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">Gdgourou</a>: Article L132-15, which you cite, is from a section of the IP code titled Contrat d'édition (Articles L132-1 à L132-17-9). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20120524174247/http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/content/download/1959/13723/version/3/file/Code_35.pdf">The English version</a> (a few years older, but no substantial changes in that section) calls it Publishing contracts. So éditeur (which you translated as editor) actually means publisher here, as in publishing house or company. Gallimard or Hachette for example. This whole section is about contracts between authors and publishers, in which the author receives money, while the publisher receives the right to publish copies of the author's work or works. L132-15, in particular, is about how to proceed with such a contract if the publisher is bankrupt, in receivership or liquidated, also how to proceed with any manufactured copies (exemplaires fabriqués, like printed books) which were produced according to a publishing contract.</dd> <dd>This whole Harcourt situation is not about a publishing contract, so article L132-15 simply cannot apply. Also, the (old, original) Harcourt company did not resume its activity. It was liquidated, and the rights to its name and brand were sold. A new company, founded in 1992, eventually took over the name and brand of the old company. --<a href="/wiki/User:Rosenzweig" title="User:Rosenzweig">Rosenzweig</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosenzweig" title="User talk:Rosenzweig">τ</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Rosenzweig-20241105174600-Gdgourou-20241105100200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">Gdgourou</a>: the court case states that the patrimonial rights belongs to the French Ministry of Culture:</dd> <dd><blockquote>Les défenderesses ne sauraient opposer les droits de l'auteur originaire, le STUDIO HARCOURT créé en 1934, sur ces clichés, dès lors qu'elles n'en sont pas titulaires et que seul le Ministère de la Culture est propriétaire des droits patrimoniaux attachés au clichés réalisés de 1934 à 1992 par le STUDIO HARCOURT</blockquote></dd> <dd>The French government cannot have the moral rights as they are intransferible, but it is irrelevant in the discussion as we don't have an attribution problem. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241105190300-Gdgourou-20241105100200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>In fact the case only dissociate the pictures before 1968 and those after 1989 as they are totally separate company. The authorization given by the owner of the company created after 1989 prevent the mass deletion of those pictures --<a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">GdGourou</a> - °o° - <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gdgourou" title="User talk:Gdgourou">Talk to me</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Gdgourou-20241108070400-Günther_Frager-20241105190300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">Gdgourou</a>: I'm happy that we both agree that they are two different companies. It is inaccurate to talk about "the company created after 1989" because the judicial resolution clearly states the new Studio Hacourt was created on November 1992. The resolution only uses the year 1989 to indicate when a trademark was registered. That trademark was acquired by the new Studio Harcourt in an auction also in 1992.Trademarks and copyright are different legal concepts, so I don't see what is your argument. Btw, have you checked the dates of the photos in this DR? The newest one is <a href="/wiki/File:Philippine_Leroy-Beaulieu.jpg" title="File:Philippine Leroy-Beaulieu.jpg">File:Philippine Leroy-Beaulieu.jpg</a> and was taken in 1988. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241118230000-Gdgourou-20241108070400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>Some of those in favor of mass suppression now seem to want to question my good faith and honesty, according to the pretext that I published on the Bistro (francophone) that this debate was resuming here, by summarizing the subject. They accuse me of having warned in all transparency, those who have already expressed themselves before. It is at the very least clumsy and not neutral, since the voters have freely and clearly expressed themselves in a way that suits their position on this issue, or not. I have personally always respected the good faith of those who do not share my analysis. I hope that everyone will express themselves rather on the substance of the debate, instead of questioning my good faith.</li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Tisourcier" title="User:Tisourcier">Tisourcier</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tisourcier" title="User talk:Tisourcier">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Tisourcier-20241105101200-Gdgourou-20241105100200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:12, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi> Pas de raison de supprimer : les droits appartiennent toujours aux Studios Harcourt, qui existe et autorise l'usage des photos... <a href="/wiki/User:DarkVador79-UA" title="User:DarkVador79-UA">DarkVador79-UA</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DarkVador79-UA" title="User talk:DarkVador79-UA">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-DarkVador79-UA-20241105104100-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> <dl><dd><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/15px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/23px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/30px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/> <bdi>Comment</bdi> I absolutely do not understand <a href="/wiki/User:Gdgourou" title="User:Gdgourou">User:Gdgourou</a>'s claim that the patrimonial rights would have reverted from the "editor" (I assume "publisher/éditeur) to the "photograph" (I assume "photographer/photographe"). These are considered collective works, are they not? To whom would they revert? (Also, if they reverted to anyone who was alive in 1954 or later, which they had to be to take a picture in this time frame, then the work would certainly still be copyrighted in France.) - <a href="/wiki/User:Jmabel" title="User:Jmabel">Jmabel</a> ! <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jmabel" title="User talk:Jmabel">talk</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Jmabel-20241105200400-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/15px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/23px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/30px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/> <bdi>Comment</bdi> The rights of the author of a work are inalienable and remain attached to the work even when the rights to it have been “released” into the public domain or by the company holding the rights to the work by contract. These are two different things. --<a href="/wiki/User:Madelgarius" title="User:Madelgarius">Madelgarius</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Madelgarius" title="User talk:Madelgarius">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Madelgarius-20241106194000-Jmabel-20241105200400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Symbol_keep_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_keep_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/> <bdi>Keep</bdi> Conserver. Les droits appartiennent au studio Harcourt et dont l'autorisation d'utilisation de leurs photos sur WP ne saurait être remise en doute. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Mayeul_75&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Mayeul 75 (page does not exist)">Mayeul 75</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mayeul_75" title="User talk:Mayeul 75">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Mayeul_75-20241106202100-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Mayeul_75&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Mayeul 75 (page does not exist)">Mayeul 75</a>: the "new" Studio Harcourt only gave a permission, via <a href="https://ticket.wikimedia.org/otrs/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&TicketNumber=2010061710041251" class="extiw" title="ticket:2010061710041251">ticket:2010061710041251</a>, to the photos they uploaded under <a href="/wiki/User:Studio_Harcourt" title="User:Studio Harcourt">User:Studio Harcourt</a>. None of those files are part of this DR. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241107211800-Mayeul_75-20241106202100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> Je ne suis pas d'accord avec votre interprétation personnelle portant sur la différence entre plusieurs possibles "studios". Je maintiens mon avis. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Mayeul_75&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Mayeul 75 (page does not exist)">Mayeul 75</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mayeul_75" title="User talk:Mayeul 75">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Mayeul_75-20241108102600-Günther_Frager-20241107211800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <ul><li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/15px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/23px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/30px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/> <bdi>Comment</bdi>. Here is a traduction from a paragraph I just published, according to serious references/sources, about "authorship rights" laws situation in France (see original here : <a class="external free" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_d%27auteur_en_France#Les_grandes_%C3%A9tapes_historiques_du_droit_d'auteur">https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_d%27auteur_en_France#Les_grandes_%C3%A9tapes_historiques_du_droit_d'auteur</a>) :</li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="The_major_historical_stages_of_authorship_rights_in_France" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_major_historical_stages_of_authorship_rights_in_France-Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991-20241118114800">The major historical stages of authorship rights in France</h4>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: The major historical stages of authorship rights in France">edit</a>]</div> In French regulations, authorship rights and its associated rights known as "droits voisins" have successively been the subject of general principles and then, progressively, of regulations aimed at determining the different applications, whether they are of a patrimonial, moral or commercial nature. <div class="mw-heading mw-heading5"><h5 id="From_August_26,_1789_to_March_11,_1958" data-mw-thread-id="h-From_August_26,_1789_to_March_11,_1958-The_major_historical_stages_of_authorship_rights_in_France">From August 26, 1789 to March 11, 1958</h5>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: From August 26, 1789 to March 11, 1958">edit</a>]</div> From the 18th century, French courts established, through their decisions, a whole construction of authorship rights and in particular, intellectual property: the French law of 1793, the law of July 14, 1866, the law of July 24, 1793 and then the law of July 14, 1866. This principle was ratified by the Berne Convention in 1886, in its article 7 and taken up by the Brussels Act of 1948. During this period, moral rights were created by case law in order to preserve the link between the author and his work. <div class="mw-heading mw-heading5"><h5 id="From_March_11,_1958_to_July_2,_1992" data-mw-thread-id="h-From_March_11,_1958_to_July_2,_1992-The_major_historical_stages_of_authorship_rights_in_France">From March 11, 1958 to July 2, 1992</h5>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: From March 11, 1958 to July 2, 1992">edit</a>]</div> Law 57-298 1957-03-11 published in the Official Journal of the French Republic on March 14, 1957 and corrected in the JORF on April 19, 1957, came into force on March 11, 1958. The primary objective of this law was to legalize the solutions previously identified by the courts and case law; it thus confirms and consolidates more particularly the status of the author and his creations: <ul><li>The author benefits the right to respect for his name, his quality and his work.</li> <li>This right is attached to his person.</li> <li>It is perpetual, inalienable and imprescriptible.</li> <li>It is transmissible upon death to the heirs of the author. The exercise of it may be conferred on a third party by virtue of testamentary provisions.</li></ul> Thus, unlike Anglo-Saxon law, which is particularly attached to "copyright", French law determines more precisely that "authorship rights" can never be transferred to a third party and that it remains perpetual, even after the death of its creators. Attached to this copyright, a so-called "moral" right determines the limits of the possible commercialization of their works, by third parties. The Berne Convention gradually adopted the recognition of moral rights established in France, first noted in Rome in 1928 then established in Brussels in 1948 and finally confirmed in the version of the convention established in Stockholm in 1967. <div class="mw-heading mw-heading5"><h5 id="Since_July_3,_1992" data-mw-thread-id="h-Since_July_3,_1992-The_major_historical_stages_of_authorship_rights_in_France-20241118114800">Since July 3, 1992</h5>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Since July 3, 1992">edit</a>]</div> On July 1, 1992, France implemented the Intellectual Property Code and Law 92-597 1992-07-01 published in the Journal Officiel de la République Française (JORF) on July 3, 1992, confirms the two essential points specific to copyright: <ul><li>"Authorship belongs, unless proven otherwise, to the person or persons under whose name the work is disclosed".</li> <li>"Intangible property defined by Article L. 111-1 is independent of ownership of the material object".</li></ul> Thus in France, "author's rights" are always clearly distinct from the Anglo-Saxon "copyright". <ul><li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/15px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/23px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/30px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/> <bdi>Comment</bdi>. So, some are making a confusion between "copyright" notions and France's laws for "droits d'auteur" wich is different than only "moral rights". In the present case, Studio Harcourt company stays THE author and be empowered to declare that their photographs before 1992 are PD and can freely be used (since their credits are also specified, of course). — Preceding <a href="/wiki/Commons:Signatures" title="Commons:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <bdi><a href="/wiki/User:Tisourcier" title="User:Tisourcier">Tisourcier</a></bdi> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tisourcier" title="User talk:Tisourcier">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tisourcier" title="Special:Contributions/Tisourcier">contribs</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Tisourcier-20241118114800-Since_July_3,_1992" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Tisourcier" title="User:Tisourcier">Tisourcier</a>: as <a href="/wiki/User:Jmabel" title="User:Jmabel">Jmabel</a> pointed out and it is also explicit on the whole DR and previous debates, we are discussing about patrimonial rights. The text «It is perpetual, inalienable and imprescriptible.» belongs to <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006278891">Article L121-1</a> of the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/section_lc/LEGITEXT000006069414/LEGISCTA000006161636/#LEGISCTA000006161636">Chapitre Ier : Droits moraux (Articles L121-1 à L121-9)</a>, i.e., it is about moral rights. The patrimonial rights are in a different part: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/section_lc/LEGITEXT000006069414/LEGISCTA000006161637/#LEGISCTA000006161637">Chapitre II : Droits patrimoniaux (Articles L122-1 à L122-12)</a>. Patrimonial rights are subdivided in representation rights and reproduction rights, see <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006278903">Article L122-1</a>. Both of them are transferable according to <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006278922">Article L122-7</a>. The judicial resolution <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://justice.pappers.fr/decision/86f629f7e3c400a9c8e315c4a94c66af">Tribunal de grande instance de Paris, 4 février 2003, 2001/17786</a> makes it clear that the Ministry of Culture is the owner of the patrimonial rights of the photographs taken between 1934 and 1992, see quotation above. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241118222400-Tisourcier-20241118114800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>As far as I can tell, none of the people who are arguing for deletion are questioning the droit d'auteur. Everyone agrees that, if used, these images must be credited to Studio Harcourt. The questions are entirely about patrimonial rights, whether those belong to the present Studio Harcourt or the French state and, in particular, whether an employee of the present Studio Harcourt was in a position to license/waive the patrimonial rights for these images. - <a href="/wiki/User:Jmabel" title="User:Jmabel">Jmabel</a> ! <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jmabel" title="User talk:Jmabel">talk</a> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Jmabel-20241118170300-Tisourcier-20241118114800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>References about the "©" (copyright) credits or mentions for the present case : <ul><li>French national Ministry of Economy :</li></ul></dd> <dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.economie.gouv.fr/apie/propriete-intellectuelle-publications/droit-auteur-image-numerique-4">https://www.economie.gouv.fr/apie/propriete-intellectuelle-publications/droit-auteur-image-numerique-4</a></dd> <dd>The © symbol has no particular value in France.</dd> <dd>However, its affixing on the back of a brochure for example, accompanied by the year, constitutes an evocative and understandable sign for the public. This information can also be translated by the expression "All rights reserved". In any event, this sign is not intended to appear in association with content constituting public information within the meaning of the law of July 17, 1978. <ul><li>National Institute of Industrial Property of France :</li></ul></dd> <dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.inpi.fr/faq/l-utilisation-du-sigle-c-copyright-est-elle-soumise-autorisation">https://www.inpi.fr/faq/l-utilisation-du-sigle-c-copyright-est-elle-soumise-autorisation</a></dd> <dd>Copyright is the system of protection of literary and artistic works in force in Anglo-Saxon countries. It is the equivalent of authors' rights in France. Works protected by copyright are often identified by the symbol ©. While the use of this symbol has a precise meaning in Anglo-Saxon countries, in the United States in particular,</dd> <dd>its use has no legal scope in France, and is therefore not subject to any authorization.</dd> <dd>So, the @ RMN credits for Studio Harcourt photographs are not relevant, especially since RMN has committed numerous copyfrauds. <a href="/wiki/User:Tisourcier" title="User:Tisourcier">Tisourcier</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tisourcier" title="User talk:Tisourcier">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Tisourcier-20241120105400-Jmabel-20241118170300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The argument to delete these photos is not the presence of a copyright symbol, thus it is irrelevant whether the symbol has a value or not in the French law. A judicial resolution by a French court has value in France. The argument of "copyfraud" is irrelevant as <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/953151659" title="Special:Diff/953151659">I explained before</a> in this DR: the holder of the patrimonial rights is in the section "DROTIS D'AUTEUR" and they are accurate. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241120205700-Tisourcier-20241120105400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/15px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/23px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/30px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/> <bdi>Comment</bdi> I removed <a href="/wiki/File:Ingrid_Bergman_%26_Mel_Ferrer_dans_Elena_et_les_Hommes.jpg" title="File:Ingrid Bergman & Mel Ferrer dans Elena et les Hommes.jpg">File:Ingrid Bergman & Mel Ferrer dans Elena et les Hommes.jpg</a> from the list because it is not a Harcourt photo. The photographer is Sam Levin. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241120201400-Tisourcier-20241118114800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:14, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> <ul><li><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/15px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/23px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg/30px-Pictogram_voting_comment_%28orange%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/> <bdi>Comment</bdi> To conclude regarding the property rights which are allegedly held and managed by RMN:</li></ul> Neither Germaine Hirschfeld known as "Cosette Harcourt", nor Jacques and Jean Lacroix co-funders, nor Studio Harcourt appear in this official and exhaustive list of authors managed by RMN (source : their official website). <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/C.aspx?VP3=CMS3&VF=RMNR5N_1">https://www.photo.rmn.fr/C.aspx?VP3=CMS3&VF=RMNR5N_1</a> List of authors whose copyright is managed directly by GrandPalaisRmn (Liste des auteurs dont les droits d’auteur sont gérés directement par GrandPalaisRmn) : <ul><li>Allégret Marc (1900-1973)</li> <li>Bonney Therese (dite), Bonney Mabel (1894-1978)</li> <li>Boudinet Daniel (1945-1990)</li> <li>Bovis Marcel (1904-1997)</li> <li>Brassaï (dit), Halasz Gyula (1899-1984)</li> <li>Colomb Denise (1902-2004)</li> <li>Corbeau Roger (1908-1995)</li> <li>Galup Amélie (1856-1943)</li> <li>Kertész Andor (1894-1985), André Kertész (dit)</li> <li>Kollar François (1904-1979)</li> <li>Le Prat Thérèse (1895-1966)</li> <li>Leroux Jean-Baptiste (né en 1949)</li> <li>Lévin Sam (1904-1992)</li> <li>Parry Roger (1905-1977)</li> <li>René-Jacques (dit), Giton René (1908-2003)</li> <li>Réquillart Bruno (né en 1947)</li> <li>Vizzavona François Antoine (1876-1961)</li> <li>Voinquel Raymond (1912-1994)</li></ul> This therefore demonstrates that RMN does not hold or manage these Studio Harcourt property rights ("patrimoniaux"), which is confirmed by the statement of one of the head of Studio Harcourt (OTRS/VRT ticket). <a href="/wiki/User:Tisourcier" title="User:Tisourcier">Tisourcier</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tisourcier" title="User talk:Tisourcier">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Tisourcier-20241122123500-Since_July_3,_1992" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>First of all, it says that the author rights are managed by RNM. That means that the artists instead of managing their author rights themselves they have an agreement with RMN so that RMN enforce their rights and collect royalties on their behalf. In this case, the (old) Studio Harcourt has no agreement because the the French state own the patrimonial rights. Second, the list is not even exhaustive as you claim, a simple query in a search engine shows that the RMN manages the rights of Raphaël Gaillarde <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/12-579869-2C6NU02GZLNA.html">[27]</a>, Willy Ronis <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/Package/2C6NU0A904RHS">[28]</a>, Jérôme Prince <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/13-538381-2C6NU0DUURR9.html">[29]</a>, etc. None of them are in that list. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241122175300-Tisourcier-20241122123500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:53, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://francearchives.gouv.fr/fr/authorityrecord/FRAN_NP_005236">https://francearchives.gouv.fr/fr/authorityrecord/FRAN_NP_005236</a> <ul><li>According to this official French authority record, before November 14, 1990, RMN was not yet a "public establishment of an industrial and commercial nature" and could not claim to hold or manage any copyright or piece of "patrimonial rights". (Avant le 14 novembre 1990, RMN n'était pas encore un "établissement public à caractère industriel et commercial" et ne pouvait prétendre à détenir ou gérer des droits d'auteurs "patrimoniaux").</li></ul></dd> <dd>So when in 1988, Studio Harcourt let them (RMN) recovering and archiving their photographs, they were not allowed to commercialize these, but only preserve and publish the archives. <a href="/wiki/User:Tisourcier" title="User:Tisourcier">Tisourcier</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tisourcier" title="User talk:Tisourcier">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Tisourcier-20241122141800-Tisourcier-20241122123500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Tisourcier" title="User:Tisourcier">Tisourcier</a>: you perfectly know that the French Ministry of Culture in 1989 with Jack Lang singing the agreement acquired the 1934-1979 collection and that AFDPP in an auction that took place in 1991 acquired the 1980-1991 collection. You also know that the court case from 2003 claims that the owner of the patrimonial rights is the Ministry of Culture. Where did you get that RMN bought the Studio Harcourt archives in 1989? Where did you get that the RNM in 2024 cannot manage the rights of the Ministry of Culture because in 1989 was not able to do so? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:G%C3%BCnther_Frager&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Günther Frager (page does not exist)">Günther Frager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G%C3%BCnther_Frager" title="User talk:Günther Frager">talk</a>) <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Photographs_by_Studio_Harcourt_1954_to_1991#c-Günther_Frager-20241122182800-Tisourcier-20241122141800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" 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